Cross-examination of Robert Groden (part 5)

📄 Cross-examination of Robert Groden (part 5) — Friday, December 20, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\DEC\20\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-ROBERT-GR.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 35 of 57

Witness: Robert Groden
Examiner: Peter Gelblum
Called by: Defense • Date: Friday, December 20, 1996 • Utterances: 339

Peter Gelblum cross-examines defense photo analyst Robert Groden, attacking his claim that the Bruno Magli shoe photograph negatives were fabricated. Gelblum challenges Groden's methodology — including his film alignment measurements and identification of a 'false edge' — and then impeaches him with deposition testimony in which Groden admitted he was 'not sure' the photos were fake.

# 1 (A bench conference was held which was not reported.)

# 2 (Jurors resume their respective seats.)

# 3 (The following proceedings were held in open court in the presence of the jury.)

# 4 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) We were talking about the alignment of the pictures, remember that, Mr. Groden?

# 5 A:

Yes.

# 6 MR. GELBLUM:

Steve, could you put up Exhibit 1832, please. (Exhibit 1832 displayed.)

# 7 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Now, when you measured on your slide, you didn't square it off at the top, you just put a straight edge along the side, correct?

# 8 A:

That's correct.

# 9 Q:

Wouldn't you agree squaring it off is a more accurate way of measuring it?

# 10 A:

No, not necessarily.

# 11 Q:

It's crooked if you don't square it off?

# 12 A:

It depends what you're comparing it to.

# 13 Q:

Yeah, okay. Do you agreefocus up here, please, the top. This is 12 and 13. That's square across the top. (Indicating to individual slide on the exhibit.)

# 14 A:

No, it's not.

# 15 Q:

All right.

# 16 MR. GELBLUM:

I guess 25

# 17 A:

There's a greater space on this side than there is here.

# 18 MR. GELBLUM:

Move it up, Steve. (Elmo adjusted.)

# 19 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Is it straight along the side?

# 20 A:

I can't tell.

# 21 Q:

All right.

# 22 A:

It's because it's part of the picture.

# 23 MR. GELBLUM:

Move it up, Steve.

# 24 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) This is the next frame down, right?

# 25 A:

Yes.

# 26 Q:

Okay. You see a gap in the space here, a gap, much more showing on that than the one above it?

# 27 A:

Yes.

# 28 Q:

Okay. Okay. Just like the picture of Mr. Simpson where you showed the gap between the straight edge and the side, right?

# 29 A:

No.

# 30 Q:

You viewed from the outside, this is the inside?

# 31 A:

No. This appears thinner on top and wider on the bottom, it's diagonal, it's not a straight edge.

# 32 Q:

The post-it is not straight?

# 33 A:

That's what I'm saying. That's what I said before. 1

# 34 Q:

We'll let the jury decide.

# 35 MR. GELBLUM:

Can you show me 33 and 34, please. (Slide No. 33 displayed.)

# 36 A:

This is 33. (Indicating to slide 33.)

# 37 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Is it straight along the bottom, covers up the side? Agree with me on that?

# 38 A:

Again, I can't tell because you have part of the picture covered up.

# 39 Q:

They're all covered up.

# 40 MR. GELBLUM:

Go ahead up to 34. (Slide 34 displayed.)

# 41 Q:

Do you see that there's a space showing that is not showing in 33?

# 42 A:

Again, it's diagonal, it's not flush to the edge.

# 43 Q:

It's because it's misaligned, right?

# 44 A:

No. No.

# 45 Q:

# 46 A:

No, wait, you asked me a question.

# 47 Q:

Do you know how film

# 48 MR. LEONARD:

I object and ask that he be allowed to answer the question.

# 49 THE COURT:

Ask another question.

# 50 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Do you have any idea how film moves through a camera?

# 51 A:

Of course.

# 52 Q:

This is a camera?

# 53 A:

It's a camera. Of course.

# 54 MR. GELBLUM:

Let the record reflect I'm holding up a 35 millimeter single lens reflex camera?

# 55 A:

Yes.

# 56 Q:

Pentax?

# 57 A:

Yes.

# 58 Q:

Now, load the film in the camera like this, right, pull it over, across thewhat do you call that?

# 59 THE COURT:

I'm sure the jury has a nice view of your back.

# 60 MR. GELBLUM:

I'm trying to coordinate and the witness

# 61 THE COURT:

Why don't you stand over here.

# 62 MR. GELBLUM:

All right. Good idea. Thank you.

# 63 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Pull the lens across what do you call this opening?

# 64 A:

It's frame aperture.

# 65 Q:

And then you stick it in the take-up reel, right?

# 66 A:

Um-hum.

# 67 Q:

Okay. And to get it flat you have to advance the film; is that right?

# 68 A:

You have to put the film in the right place.

# 69 Q:

Right. Okay. Now, as we looked at it before, it rides on top of two rails and inside the metal guides; is that right?

# 70 A:

That's correct.

# 71 Q:

And there's a little bit of play up and down, isn't there?

# 72 A:

May I examine it?

# 73 MR. BAKER:

With the camera open or closed?

# 74 MR. GELBLUM:

With the camera open. You can't see it if it's closed.

# 75 MR. LEONARD:

The question is is there play?

# 76 MR. GELBLUM:

Little bit of play up and down with the film, right?

# 77 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) That's how cameras work, right?

# 78 A:

On this particular camera there appears to be an extreme

# 79 Q:

On all cameras there's some play so that the film can move through, right?

# 80 A:

I can't say on all cameras.

# 81 Q:

And even with the camera closed, with the pressure plate, there's still some play because the film has to be able to advance, correct?

# 82 A:

That's correct.

# 83 Q:

Okay. May I pass this to the jury so they can see the play in here, Your Honor.

# 84 MR. LEONARD:

Objection. That is not the camera that was used for this shot. I think it's an improper demonstration. I don't thinkI think it's not relevant.

# 85 THE COURT:

It's not the same camera. Sustained.

# 86 MR. GELBLUM:

It's a typical camera.

# 87 THE COURT:

Excuse me, are you an expert on cameras? You haven't been sworn.

# 88 MR. PETROCELLI:

I object to the Court's comment.

# 89 THE COURT:

Well, it's overruled.

# 90 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Mr. Groden, it is typical in 35 millimeter single lens reflex cameras for there to be some play up and down so the film can move through the camera, correct.

# 91 MR. LEONARD:

Objection, vague.

# 92 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 93 A:

I would say that it would vary from camera to camera it that there is no specific instance, for instance, an Icon camera perhaps would have less.

# 94 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) But some play because it has to move through, right?

# 95 A:

They can't bind it, they can't seize it, yeah.

# 96 Q:

Okay. It has to have some play?

# 97 MR. LEONARD:

Objection, asked and answered.

# 98 MR. GELBLUM:

I think that what the witness saidcan I pass the camera around?

# 99 THE COURT:

No.

# 100 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) And because the film moves up and down a little bit because there's some play, it is absolutely typical on every contact sheet in the world for adjoining frames to not be perfectly in line with each other, true or false?

# 101 A:

False.

# 102 Q:

Now, another of your points, sir, you said that the questioned frame was too long, right?

# 103 A:

Yes.

# 104 Q:

And that simply is false, isn't it?

# 105 A:

Of course, it's not false.

# 106 Q:

Of course, it is false.

# 107 MR. LEONARD:

Objection.

# 108 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 109 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) You

# 110 THE COURT:

Jury to disregard that last comment.

# 111 MR. GELBLUM:

I apologize.

# 112 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) You said you used a compass like this to measure it?

# 113 A:

Not like that.

# 114 Q:

This type of compass?

# 115 A:

Yes.

# 116 MR. GELBLUM:

Steve, would you put the contact sheet up, please. (Mr. Foster complies.)

# 117 MR. GELBLUM:

Would you put the compass point around the edge of frame How do you want to do it, frame 2 versus frame 1 or frame 1 versus frame 2, Mr. Groden?

# 118 ROBERT GRODEN:

Doesn't matter.

# 119 MR. GELBLUM:

Do it on frame 2.

THE COURT REPORTER: And this exhibit, please?

# 120 MR. FOSTER:

1832. (Exhibit 1832 displayed.)

# 121 MR. GELBLUM:

Compass point right at the edges, top and bottom.

# 122 MR. LEONARD:

Your Honor, can we ask the witness to be able to do it.

# 123 MR. GELBLUM:

No, I don't want the witness to do it.

# 124 MR. LEONARD:

Not Mr. Foster.

# 125 THE COURT:

It is sustained. Let the witness do it.

# 126 MR. GELBLUM:

Your Honor, the jury can see it's forthis is not expertthis is holding a compass next to a photograph. The jury can see whether they're aligned or not.

# 127 MR. LEONARD:

Object, and ask the witness be permitted

# 128 THE COURT:

Witness, you do it.

# 129 ROBERT GRODEN:

He's damaging the original. I'm sorry. (Indicating to Mr. Foster placing compass on contact sheet.)

# 130 MR. PETROCELLI:

Let him do it.

# 131 MR. LEONARD:

We got a couple of holes.

# 132 THE COURT:

Do it on the copy.

# 133 MR. GELBLUM:

Your Honor, we have to do it on the original.

# 134 THE COURT:

I don't want the original damaged.

# 135 MR. GELBLUM:

This witness testified that he did this with this frame. It's a very important point. We have to demonstrate it's exactly the same size. We have to do it on the original. We have other copies of 1832, we have other copies of that one. 1 2 (Witness approaches Elmo.)

# 136 MR. GELBLUM:

Not with an enlarged one that you made, sir, with the actual size.

# 137 THE COURT:

Use theuse a laser copy from that original.

# 138 MR. GELBLUM:

No, Your Honor, use the compass that has the fixed compass, not the one that can be adjusted with your fingers with pressure.

# 139 MR. BAKER:

Adjusted what? (Compass is placed on copy.)

# 140 MR. GELBLUM:

The record should reflect that the compass points are around the top and bottom of frame 2.

# 141 THE COURT:

Well, it appears that the bottom part of the compass is within the frame.

# 142 MR. GELBLUM:

It does indeed. That's why I wanted my person to do it.

# 143 ROBERT GRODEN:

Mine has an easier to see point than this. This ishas a somewhat strange 2-stage point. Your Honor, if I may, the one that I've been using uses a straight fixed point. These are adjustable and have a 2-stage taper to it, this would not be as accurate.

# 144 THE COURT:

A point is a point.

# 145 MR. GELBLUM:

Another suggestion.

# 146 THE COURT:

No, use the fixed compass so that it cannot be moved.

# 147 MR. GELBLUM:

Your Honor, I might suggest it might take less time to let the jurors have the compass and contact sheet and pass it around, they can see for themselves.

# 148 MR. LEONARD:

I would object to that.

# 149 THE COURT:

I would sustain the objection.

# 150 MR. GELBLUM:

Just a suggestion. You're still inside. Top one's inside.

# 151 ROBERT GRODEN:

You said the bottom.

# 152 MR. GELBLUM:

Now they're both inside, sir.

# 153 ROBERT GRODEN:

Now they're both outside. That's outside.

# 154 MR. GELBLUM:

Let the record reflect those are at least pretty close to on the line.

# 155 ROBERT GRODEN:

The bottom is still outside.

# 156 MR. GELBLUM:

I don't think so. (Witness continues to place compass on slide.)

# 157 ROBERT GRODEN:

All right.

# 158 THE COURT:

Go ahead.

# 159 MR. GELBLUM:

Go ahead, put it on frame 1. Don't push the edge out there, sir.

# 160 ROBERT GRODEN:

On the other one we would make adjustments. This one I'm not.

# 161 MR. GELBLUM:

No adjustments.

# 162 ROBERT GRODEN:

That's what I said. Can't lay it flat.

# 163 THE COURT:

Okay, counsel, this is ridiculous.

KEY QUOTE

# 164 MR. GELBLUM:

Your Honor

# 165 THE COURT:

You put your own expert on and you can give measurements. This

# 166 MR. GELBLUM:

There you go, Your Honor, it's done.

# 167 ROBERT GRODEN:

It's on the inside.

# 168 MR. GELBLUM:

That's why I wanted the jury to pass it around, so they can see for themselves.

# 169 MR. LEONARD:

Object, he's arguing at this point.

# 170 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 171 MR. GELBLUM:

All right.

# 172 THE COURT:

Go off of measurementsoff your own expert to make measurements.

# 173 MR. GELBLUM:

We will, Your Honor. (Witness resumes seat at witness stand.)

# 174 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Mr. Groden, you said at your deposition something you didn't say yesterday about the measurements, which is you actually measured the difference?

# 175 A:

I measured it by examining it with a compass.

# 176 Q:

At your deposition you said you measured it and it was a quarter of a millimeter difference at 8 times enlargement, remember that?

# 177 A:

Approximately.

# 178 Q:

Okay. So actual size, that would mean a 32nd of a millimeter, right, one-eighth times one-fourth, one-thirty-second?

# 179 A:

Where, on the contact sheet?

# 180 Q:

Yes, one-eighth of a millimeter?

# 181 A:

It's an arbitrary figure.

# 182 Q:

Your measure is arbitrary?

# 183 A:

As I've said time and again, the measurement is so small that it would be virtually impossible to do an accurate measurement. You can only compare one to another.

# 184 Q:

Exactly. Because one-thirty-second of a millimeter is about 10, 12 thousandths of an inch, and you can't possibly measure that?

# 185 A:

I can't with this.

# 186 Q:

With any measuring tools when you measured it, right?

# 187 A:

That's correct. That's why I blew it up 400 percent and measured one to the other.

# 188 Q:

Exactly. When you made that enlargement, did you make any adjustment to your enlarger?

# 189 A:

No, I didn't make it, it was a xerox copy directly, no changes, nothing, no alterations.

# 190 Q:

With the enlargement?

# 191 A:

Sorry?

# 192 Q:

With the enlargement?

# 193 A:

Yes.

# 194 Q:

That's why you got a quarter millimeter at 8 X?

# 195 A:

No, it was much greater than a quarter of a millimeter.

# 196 Q:

Like to show you what was marked as Exhibit 4 at your deposition, sir.

# 197 MR. GELBLUM:

Mark that next in order.

# 198 THE CLERK:

2291.

# 199 (The instrument herein described as copy of notes of Mr. Groden was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2291.)

# 200 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Point number 9: The negative is too long, one-quarter millimeter at 800 percent?

# 201 A:

That's an approximation. This was a rough note to myself. That was not a report.

# 202 Q:

That's what you provided to me at your deposition, the record of your observations, right?

# 203 A:

You asked me

# 204 Q:

Isn't that right?

# 205 A:

You asked me

# 206 Q:

Isn't that right? Please answer the question.

# 207 A:

Yes.

# 208 Q:

Thank you. You made a written report?

# 209 A:

No.

# 210 Q:

Now, another of your points was this, what you call a second edge or something like that, a false edge; is that right?

# 211 A:

At the bottom of frame 1, below frame 1?

# 212 Q:

Right, yes.

# 213 MR. GELBLUM:

Remember which slide number that was, Phil? I think you had it.

MR. P. BAKER: Slide 3, I think this is.

# 214 MR. GELBLUM:

Slide 3.

MR. P. BAKER: Is that the correct slide?

# 215 ROBERT GRODEN:

It appears to be.

MR. P. BAKER: Slide 3 of 2282. (Slide 3 of Exhibit 2282 displayed.)

# 216 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) And just to refresh the jury's recollection, you're talking about this space down here where it gets lighter than the black, right?

# 217 A:

That's correct.

# 218 Q:

And it has some of those vertical lines in it that appear to get closer together over here

# 219 A:

That's correct.

# 220 Q:

-- is that right? And you said there is no natural phenomenon in photography whatsoever that could possibly account for that, right?

# 221 A:

It didn't appear by itself.

# 222 Q:

You said there's noI'm going to quote you, "no natural situation in photography that would give you that false edge by itself"; is that correct?

# 223 A:

That is correct.

# 224 Q:

Okay.

# 225 MR. GELBLUM:

Can I have the camera, please? (Mr. Petrocelli hands camera to Mr. Gelblum.)

# 226 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) As we saw before with the camera, you put the film in and you shoot off a few frames and you advance it, right?

# 227 A:

That's correct.

# 228 Q:

When you first load the film?

# 229 A:

That's correct.

# 230 Q:

And you're aware, sir, that when people use long lenses like the 500 millimeter lens, they don't have a lens cap on them, you're familiar with that, that's a practice of professional photographers?

# 231 A:

That's correct.

# 232 Q:

So you've got the film in, and you're loading it up and you're clicking away a few clicks, there's going to be some film (sic) that comes in through the camera lens, right?

# 233 THE COURT:

Some what?

# 234 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Light, I call it some light that comes in through the lens?

# 235 A:

I'm not sure that you're representing that exactlywhat do you mean by "comes in"?

# 236 Q:

Light enters through the lens.

# 237 A:

Oh, yes.

# 238 Q:

And hits the film?

# 239 A:

Not if it's a good camera it won't.

# 240 Q:

Not if you're clicking like that, it won't come in, it won't enter through the lens and hit the film?

# 241 A:

As you're advancing it?

# 242 Q:

Yes, as you're advancing it.

# 243 A:

Um-hum.

# 244 Q:

Frame 1 isn't the first numbered frame on a roll?

# 245 A:

There should be a zero.

# 246 Q:

And a zero zero and a zero zero zero?

# 247 A:

No.

# 248 Q:

Haven't seen that?

# 249 A:

Not a zero zero zero.

# 250 Q:

But there is a zero?

# 251 A:

Yes.

# 252 Q:

And this picture would be just below frame 1, right?

# 253 A:

Yes, that's correct.

# 254 Q:

And that frame as you're clicking through to advance the film could get exposed a little bit, right, through the lens, 'cause there's no lens cap on, 'cause there's a long lens?

# 255 A:

It would be exposed a lot.

# 256 Q:

Not if the camera is stopped down to a small aperture, right, then it could be underexposed?

# 257 MR. LEONARD:

I object to this. There's no there's a lack of foundation, assumes facts not in evidence.

# 258 THE COURT:

Overruled. He's asking him a question.

# 259 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) If the camera is stopped down to a small aperture, could be underexposed, right?

# 260 A:

Yes.

# 261 Q:

Okay. And so you could get an image on frame 0, it could be very underexposed, correct?

# 262 A:

Theoretically.

# 263 Q:

Okay. When you take the filmwhen the photographer takes the film out of the camerain this case Mr. Scull developed it himself; you read that, right?

# 264 A:

Yes.

# 265 Q:

And he takes it outand he takes it out of thethe little cartridge and he just cuts it off, right, becausehe cuts off the first couple ones because they're over'cause they're exposed from the back of the camera?

# 266 MR. LEONARD:

Objection, that assumes facts not in evidence.

# 267 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 268 MR. LEONARD:

Scull never testified to that. Never sustained to that.

# 269 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) You're familiar how you process film?

# 270 A:

Of course.

# 271 Q:

And you clip off the end?

# 272 A:

You cut the tongue off at one end.

# 273 Q:

Right at this end, right (indicating), the front of it?

# 274 A:

Much farther down.

# 275 Q:

Right. But you don't want to cut too far close to the image, the film, and on frame 1, because you don't want to cut into the image?

# 276 A:

Correct.

# 277 Q:

Okay.

# 278 MR. GELBLUM:

Now, can you put upleave that up and put up frame 12 from the contact sheet

THE COURT REPORTER: Again, this exhibit, please?

# 279 MR. GELBLUM:

Zoom in on frame 12.

# 280 MR. FOSTER:

1924. (Exhibit 1924 displayed.)

# 281 MR. FOSTER:

They both won't fit.

# 282 MR. GELBLUM:

That's all right. Just leave this one up, then. Can you focus?

# 283 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) See a series of parallel lines that get closer together as they go back, sir?

# 284 A:

You mean on the field?

# 285 Q:

Yes.

# 286 A:

Yes.

# 287 MR. GELBLUM:

You want to put the other one back up, please.

# 288 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) A lot like these parallel lines getting closer together only turned the other way, don't they?

# 289 A:

No, of course not.

# 290 Q:

Well, in fact, say that's what that is, isn't it? That's a very underexposed image of the field caught when Mr. Scull was loading his film in the camera and clicking off the film to get to frame 1?

# 291 A:

No way in the world.

KEY QUOTE

# 292 Q:

No way in the world?

# 293 A:

No.

# 294 Q:

Are you sure of that?

# 295 A:

Not that I can see photographically. First of all, they're too sharp.

# 296 Q:

You're just as sure as you were that there were no blue lines on any of the pictures except frame 11?

# 297 MR. LEONARD:

Argueobjection, argumentative.

# 298 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 299 ROBERT GRODEN:

Can you make that lighter? (Indicating to Elmo). (Elmo screen adjusted.)

# 300 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Okay. Let's go tolet's talk about your retouching mark.

# 301 MR. LEONARD:

I object to that. It's not his mark.

# 302 MR. GELBLUM:

There is no mark. Let's go to the mark we talked about.

# 303 MR. FOSTER:

1931. 1 2 (Exhibit 1931 displayed.)

# 304 MR. GELBLUM:

On thelet's start with the left, left pant, left leg. This one. Can you zoom in on this area. (Elmo adjusted.)

# 305 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) And you're saying the mark is where, sir, right along here?

# 306 (Witness indicates.)

# 307 MR. LEONARD:

Might be helpful to get a back light.

# 308 MR. FOSTER:

It is back lit.

# 309 MR. LEONARD:

And adjust it like we had on direct.

# 310 MR. GELBLUM:

They saw it this morning.

# 311 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) Just point the area out?

# 312 A:

Right along here.

# 313 Q:

Right along the crease in his pants, right? You see a crease in his pants there?

# 314 A:

I don't see a crease. Do you see a crease?

# 315 Q:

You don't see a crease in his pants there?

# 316 A:

I see a bend in the material. I don't see a crease.

# 317 Q:

A fold in the material?

# 318 A:

Okay. Yeah.

# 319 Q:

Okay. What are you saying hereby the way, are you saying that how this was this donewere false pants put on, a false shirt on, false shoes? What happened with this picture?

# 320 A:

I didn't create the picture. I have no idea what was done to it.

# 321 Q:

You have

# 322 A:

There are many ways it could have been done. I have no personal knowledge of how it was done.

# 323 Q:

You have an opinion about how it was done, given all your expertise?

# 324 A:

In this particular place, in this particular place, the issue that we're talking about now, looks like somebody took either a retouching brush and attempted to hide something, either a crop line or something of that nature, or if it was done digitally, it could be a process known as cloning.

# 325 Q:

Now I'm talking about the whole photograph. You're saying this a photograph of Mr. Simpson that somebody put new pants and shoes on, or is it a photograph of somebody else entirely that somebody put Mr. Simpson's head on? What are you saying was done here?

# 326 A:

What I'm saying is there are anomalies in the photograph that are not typical, that you would not find in an unretouched photograph or that you would not expect to find in an unretouched photograph, and there are indications of more than one process possibly being used.

# 327 Q:

In fact, sir, you're not sure whether this is a fake, are you?

KEY QUOTE

# 328 A:

I'm sure, to my satisfaction I'm sure it's a fake.

# 329 Q:

Okay. Do you remember at your deposition

# 330 MR. GELBLUM:

14, Mr. Leonard.

# 331 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) You're sure it's a fake?

# 332 A:

I'm convinced to a great deal of certainty that it's a fake.

KEY QUOTE

# 333 Q:

Let's look at your deposition testimonybut you're not sure?

# 334 MR. LEONARD:

Objection, vague, Your Honor.

# 335 MR. GELBLUM:

Put it up.

# 336 MR. LEONARD:

Asked and answered.

# 337 Q:

(BY MR. GELBLUM) (Reading:) Your bottom line opinion here is that you observed what you perceived are some problems with the negative? Yes. That leads you to believe on balance it's probably not genuine, it's probably a fake, but you're not sure; is that fair? I'd say that's accurate, yeah. Remember giving that testimony?

KEY QUOTE

# 338 A:

Yes.

# 339 THE COURT:

Okay. 1:30. Ladies and gentlemen, don't talk about the case, don't form or express any opinions.

(At 12 P.M. a recess was taken until 1:30 P.M. of the same day.) SANTA MONICA, CALIFORNIA; FRIDAY, DECEMBER 20, 1996 1:37 P.M. DEPARTMENT NO. WEQ HON. HIROSHI FUJISAKI, JUDGE

APPEARANCES:

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Peter Gelblum

In fact, sir, you're not sure whether this is a fake, are you?

Sets up the deposition impeachment that undercuts Groden's confident trial testimony.

Groden

I'm convinced to a great deal of certainty that it's a fake.

Groden's retreat from certainty, immediately followed by his own deposition words contradicting him.

Peter Gelblum

(Reading:) Your bottom line opinion here is that you observed what you perceived are some problems with the negative? Yes. That leads you to believe on balance it's probably not genuine, it's probably a fake, but you're not sure; is that fair? I'd say that's accurate, yeah.

Decisive impeachment — Groden's own deposition words collapse his trial certainty to 'probably' and 'not sure.'

Hiroshi Fujisaki

Okay, counsel, this is ridiculous.

Judge's exasperation during the protracted compass-on-contact-sheet demonstration captures how the exhibit went sideways for plaintiffs.

Groden

No way in the world.

Overconfident denial that Gelblum immediately contrasts with Groden's own prior admission of uncertainty.

Evidence (6)

Exhibit 1832

Contact sheet showing film frames used by Groden to argue the questioned negative was too long and misaligned

Displayed repeatedly; compass measurement demonstration performed on it

Exhibit 2282, Slide 3

Slide showing the 'false edge' or second edge Groden identified below frame 1

Displayed; Gelblum offers alternative explanation as underexposed frame 0

Exhibit 1924

Contact sheet frame 12 showing parallel field lines

Displayed to compare with the 'false edge' lines Groden identified

Exhibit 1931

Photograph of OJ Simpson showing pants area where Groden claimed retouching or cloning

Displayed; Groden points to area, Gelblum challenges the retouching theory

Exhibit 2291

Copy of Groden's handwritten notes (marked at this proceeding), including point 9: 'The negative is too long, one-quarter millimeter at 800 percent'

Introduced and used to impeach Groden's trial testimony about measurement precision

Informal

Pentax 35mm SLR camera used as a demonstration prop to show film play in camera rails

Gelblum attempts to pass to jury; objection sustained because it is not the same camera used for the questioned photographs

Notable Exchanges (4)

Peter Gelblum•Hiroshi Fujisaki

Judge tells Gelblum to turn around because the jury can only see his back while he demonstrates the camera. Gelblum thanks the judge and complies.

light

Peter Gelblum•Dan Leonard•Groden•Hiroshi Fujisaki

Extended standoff over who should place the compass on the contact sheet — Gelblum's tech vs. the witness. Judge orders the witness to do it; the demonstration devolves into a dispute about compass points being inside or outside frame edges, prompting the judge to declare 'this is ridiculous.'

chaotic/procedural

Peter Gelblum•Groden

Gelblum reads back Groden's deposition: Groden said the photos were 'probably a fake, but you're not sure.' Groden confirms the testimony, collapsing his confident trial stance.

devastating

Daniel Petrocelli•Hiroshi Fujisaki

After Fujisaki questions Gelblum's camera expertise ('are you an expert on cameras? You haven't been sworn'), Petrocelli objects to the Court's comment. The judge overrules his own objection.

tense/unusual

Light Moments (3)

Hiroshi Fujisaki

Judge notices Gelblum is showing the camera to the witness with his back to the jury and quips: 'I'm sure the jury has a nice view of your back.'

Hiroshi Fujisaki

After Gelblum tells the witness not to make adjustments to the fixed compass, the witness deadpans: 'That's what I said. Can't lay it flat.' Judge: 'Okay, counsel, this is ridiculous.'

Hiroshi Fujisaki

When Gelblum tries to pass the camera to the jury as a typical 35mm SLR, Fujisaki asks him 'are you an expert on cameras? You haven't been sworn' — and Petrocelli objects to the judge's own remark.

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Robert Groden

Prior inconsistent statement (deposition impeachment)

Gelblum reads Groden's deposition in which he said the photos were 'probably a fake, but you're not sure' and confirmed 'I'd say that's accurate.' This directly contradicts his confident trial assertion that he was 'sure' the photograph was a fake.

⚔ Robert Groden

Methodology attack

Gelblum demonstrates that Groden's measured difference in frame length (one-quarter millimeter at 800%) converts to roughly one thirty-second of a millimeter actual size — too small to measure reliably — and that Groden himself acknowledged it was 'arbitrary.' His own handwritten notes (Exhibit 2291) are used to pin down the figure.

⚔ Robert Groden

Alternative explanation / expert qualification challenge

Gelblum offers natural photographic explanations for each of Groden's anomalies: film play in camera rails explains frame misalignment; an underexposed 'frame 0' exposed when loading a camera with a long lens (no lens cap) explains the 'false edge.' Groden's denials ('No way in the world') are positioned as overreach given his admitted uncertainty.

Witness Demeanor

Witness is technically combative, parsing every question for loopholes ('It depends what you're comparing it to'; 'I can't say on all cameras')

Becomes flustered during the compass demonstration, trading disputed calls with Gelblum over whether points are inside or outside frame edges

Retreats from 'certain' to 'convinced to a great deal of certainty' when pressed, then is visibly cornered by his own deposition transcript

Objections

12 objections (6 sustained, 4 overruled)

Proceeding 8717 • 339 utterances • Defense witness

Civil Trial

Department 103