Re-redirect examination of Michael Baden (part 2)

📄 Re-redirect examination of Michael Baden (part 2) — Tuesday, December 17, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\DEC\17\RE-REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-MIC.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 33 of 57

◀ Lunch recess Redirect examination of Michael Baden (part 2) ▶

Witness: Dr. Michael Baden
Examiner: Robert Blasier
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, December 17, 1996 • Utterances: 63

Plaintiffs' attorney Medvene pressed Dr. Baden on inconsistencies between his trial testimony and statements made on a television show (the Rivera show), particularly regarding the timeline of Goldman's death and speculation about multiple perpetrators. Baden acknowledged he had made imprecise or figurative statements on the show that he did not intend literally, and the exchange became a back-and-forth over whether Baden was actually suggesting a second assailant with a gun.

# 1 Q:

Good afternoon, Dr. Baden.

# 2 A:

Good afternoon, Mr. Medvene.

# 3 Q:

Just a few more questions for you.

You were asked on redirect about the question of blood under fingernails.

I want to ask you, sir, isn't it true that it is uncommon to find an assailant's blood under the victim's fingernails?

# 4 A:

Yes.

# 5 Q:

There was some discussion on redirect about the shirt and the fact there wasn't much blood on the left side of the shirt. And you had talked about the absorbency of a shirt, and that might account for the possible lack of soaking on the left side.

You know what kind of shirt it was, sir?

# 6 A:

That's not what I said.

# 7 Q:

All right.

Do you know what kind of shirt it was Mr. Goldman was wearing?

# 8 A:

I did at one time. I don't recall.

It was --

# 9 Q:

Yes, sir. Was it a cotton shirt?

# 10 A:

I forget what it was. I'd have to review my notes on that.

# 11 MR. MEDVENE:

Put on the board next in order.

# 12 THE CLERK:

2272.

# 13 (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph depicting shirt label was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2272.)

# 14 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) I ask you to look at 2272, and ask if that's Mr. Goldman's shirt and if that is a cotton?

# 15 A:

Cotton; yes, sir.

# 16 Q:

And cotton, to your knowledge, would be an absorbent material?

# 17 A:

It would be absorbent, yes.

# 18 Q:

You also said with respect to the shirt, and discussing relative lack of blood on the left side, something about the assailant twisting the shirt. Is it your testimony that the --

# 19 A:

I didn't say that.

# 20 Q:

Is it your testimony that the assailant was holding Mr. Goldman's shirt so that the left side was moved away from his left jugular vein for five or ten minutes?

# 21 A:

No, I didn't say that. And I would have no knowledge of that.

And I would doubt that.

# 22 Q:

All right.

Is it true, sir, that you have previously testified, under oath, that you did not see any blood in the soil, and there was no blood when the body was removed, and not much blood in that area, to start with?

Did you previously say that under oath, sir?

# 23 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Outside of the scope.

# 24 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 25 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Did you say that?

# 26 A:

That would be my observation; I did not see any blood --

# 27 Q:

Thank you, sir.

# 28 A:

-- in the soil or on the photographs.

# 29 Q:

Thank you, sir.

And last question, sir: You have stated that, from whatever wounds he received, Mr. Goldman would be on the ground in two to three minutes, but might have stayed alive, before receiving the other wounds, for seven or eight minutes.

Are you contending, sir, as you stated on the Rivera show, that the assailant could have inflicted a wound and stopped and talked, or maybe there was another perpetrator with a gun?

Are you suggesting that that's what happened during this seven or eight minutes that Mr. Goldman was on the ground, before he was, you say, stabbed in the abdomen and the aorta?

# 30 A:

What I was trying to convey was that --

# 31 Q:

Is that what you're saying, sir?

# 32 A:

What I'm trying to say, that many things could have happened in between the two. I'm not saying it happened that way at all.

# 33 Q:

So that's one of the things?

# 34 A:

But if I may answer your question --

In the context of the show, which I regret I have to have been involved in, from trying to explain my thoughts without having to review the record, I was trying to explain that we can only tell, as medical examiners, the minimum time, just like in a boxing match, that injuries are inflicted; and we don't know what happens in between.

# 35 Q:

Right.

# 36 A:

So the reason I'm was very confusing -- have been very confusing, is, between the cut and neck and the -- and the final stab wound, there's at least five or ten minutes.

How long he stood during that time, I can't say.

# 37 Q:

Well, you had --

# 38 A:

I -- I can say only as I've said it before.

# 39 Q:

Dr. Baden, so we stay focused, and I'm done --

# 40 A:

I'm sorry.

# 41 Q:

-- you had him down on the ground in two to three --

# 42 A:

Two to three minutes. I've given various numbers. I don't know how long he stood up. Two to five minutes, he'd be down on the ground.

KEY QUOTE

# 43 Q:

So many numbers you've given us.

# 44 A:

I'm sorry. It's all in the same grouping.

# 45 Q:

I'm asking you, Dr. Baden, are you suggesting to this jury --

# 46 A:

Yeah.

# 47 Q:

-- as you did on the Rivera show, that maybe the assailant didn't immediately, after two minutes, inflict the remaining blows, but he stopped and talked?

Yes or no, sir?

# 48 A:

That he stopped, did something else.

# 49 Q:

Sir, you said stopped and talked.

Are you suggesting --

# 50 A:

That was an example.

# 51 Q:

All right.

# 52 A:

I don't mean that literally; I mean that figuratively stopped, walked to the car, came back, stopped, did something in between.

KEY QUOTE

# 53 Q:

Sir, you're very verbal. You didn't say stopped and did something.

KEY QUOTE

# 54 A:

I'm not very verbal.

# 55 Q:

You said stopped and talked.

# 56 A:

I may have said that as an example.

# 57 Q:

All right.

# 58 A:

Not -- not to mean that that's what happened.

# 59 Q:

All right.

Sir, are you suggesting to the jury, as you did on the show, maybe there was another perpetrator with a gun?

Are you telling the jury that that's what you believe happened?

Yes or no, sir?

# 60 A:

No, I'm not saying what I believe.

# 61 Q:

Sir, did you say that?

# 62 A:

I said that as an example of what could have happened.

# 63 MR. BLASIER:

Thank you, sir.

I have nothing else.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Michael Baden

In the context of the show, which I regret I have to have been involved in, from trying to explain my thoughts without having to review the record, I was trying to explain that we can only tell, as medical examiners, the minimum time, just like in a boxing match, that injuries are inflicted; and we don't know what happens in between.

Baden distances himself from his own TV appearance and concedes his public statements were imprecise — a significant credibility moment

Michael Baden

I don't mean that literally; I mean that figuratively stopped, walked to the car, came back, stopped, did something in between.

Baden retreats from his Rivera show speculation about a second perpetrator, reframing his words as mere examples

Edward Medvene

Sir, you're very verbal. You didn't say stopped and did something. You said stopped and talked.

Medvene pins Baden to his exact prior words, highlighting the gap between careful trial testimony and looser television commentary

Michael Baden

Two to three minutes. I've given various numbers. I don't know how long he stood up. Two to five minutes, he'd be down on the ground.

Baden admits he has given inconsistent time estimates, undermining the precision of his expert opinion on Goldman's survival time

Evidence (1)

Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2272

Photograph depicting Goldman's shirt label showing cotton material

introduced and discussed to establish absorbency of shirt

Notable Exchanges (2)

Edward Medvene•Michael Baden

Medvene repeatedly pressed Baden on whether he was suggesting to the jury — as he had on the Rivera show — that maybe there was a second perpetrator with a gun. Baden insisted it was merely a figurative example, not a literal claim.

strategic

Edward Medvene•Michael Baden

Baden twice corrected Medvene's characterizations of his prior testimony ('That's not what I said'), asserting he never claimed the assailant twisted Goldman's shirt or that Goldman was necessarily on the ground for the disputed period.

heated

Light Moments (1)

Michael Baden

Baden apologizes mid-answer for rambling, prompting Medvene to say 'I'm done' — a rare moment of mutual acknowledgment that the exchange had gone on long enough.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Michael Baden

prior inconsistent statement (television appearance)

Medvene used Baden's statements on the Geraldo Rivera show to suggest Baden had publicly speculated about a second perpetrator with a gun and a pause in the attack — theories Baden had not advanced at trial, forcing him to backpedal and characterize his TV comments as merely figurative examples

⚔ Michael Baden

inconsistent numbers

Medvene highlighted that Baden had given 'various numbers' for how long Goldman could have remained standing — 'two to three minutes,' 'two to five minutes' — undermining the precision of his forensic timeline

Objections

1 objections (0 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 8673 • 63 utterances • Defense witness

Civil Trial

Department 103