Thank you.

Under 767, we would recall Gregory Matheson.

Same objection.

Overruled.

You are still under oath.

Can you please state your name again for the record.

Gregory Matheson. GREGORY MATHESON, called as a witness on behalf of the Defendants, having been previously sworn, testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. BLASIER:

Mr. Matheson, you have, during the course of your work in this case examined business records of the police department SID division with respect to withdrawals of blood from Mr. Simpson's reference vial, have you not?

Yes, I have.

And you testified, I think already, that on June 14th or 13th, approximately 1 milliliter was withdrawn by Colin Yamauchi to prepare a Fitzco card, correct? Do you remember that?

Either the 13th or the 14th.

And by the way, 1 milliliter is the same as 1 cc, is it not?

Basically, yes. There's some slight difference, depending on what the liquid is. They're basically the same.

And you have also reviewed records of the SID division indicating that as of June 20, when Mr. Simpson's reference vial went to toxicology, there was 5.5 milliliters left in it?

According to their record, yes.

And there are no records of any other withdrawals between when the blood was taken by Thano Peratis and when it went to toxicology on the 20th other than Mr. Yamauchi taking 1 milliliter, correct?

I believe that's correct, yes.

Let me show you what's previously been marked as 259.

And what -- why don't you tell us what that is.

This is a stack of photocopies with the top three pages being photocopies of an analyzed evidence report that I prepared associated with this case, and the remaining pages being a variety of serology case summary sheets, worksheets electrophoresis worksheets, that type of thing.

And the sheets following the third one are basically the worksheets that led to the conclusions that you stated in the top three pages; is that fair to say?

That's correct.

And looking at the board over here, this is simply a blow-up of the first page of that document, correct?

It's a blow-up of the page, but there's some additional writing that appears on my copy that does not appear on the blow-up. That's been crossed off.

That, yes, it's on the photocopy that I have in front of me.

And what this note relates -- what this note relates to is finding blood type, or an EAP type under Nicole Brown Simpson's fingernails that did not match Mr. Simpson, Ms. Brown Simpson or Mr. Goldman, correct?

Objection, calls for speculation, lack of foundation.

Overruled.

Well, this particular note, I don't recognize the handwriting and I didn't place it on there.

(BY MR. BLASIER) Okay.

Did you -- it's on your lab's records. Do you have any idea who put that there?

There's been many copies of the records that have gone to a lot of other places. I don't know when this was photocopied.

Okay.

Would you agree that the results that you found for the EAP marker reveal an EAP type under Nicole Brown Simpson's fingernails that is not consistent with either her, Ron Goldman or O.J. Simpson?

That's correct.

And if we look at the second page of that -- this document, that's represented by items 84A and B, correct?

It's -- 84A and B are the right and left fingernail scrapings. The page that's on the video monitor up here shows the results columns of the analysis.

Okay.

And in 4A and B, those are the fingernail scrapings from Nicole Brown Simpson. I'll represent that to you. The type of that you've indicated here by a B that is the EAP genetic marker, is it not?

Yes, it is.

And Nicole Brown Simpson is what type?

Either -- if you can either go to -- or if I can refer to my notes or the --

Sure.

-- the one that you gave me.

Go ahead and refer to your notes.

Okay.

According to my notes, the EAP type for Nicole Brown is EAP type BA.

And for Mr. Simpson?

He is also a type BA.

And Mr. Goldman?

An EAP type A.

Now, you also found an EAP type B for an item 118A, correct?

That's correct.

And that was a knife found sometime after the murders, that had blood on it with that EAP type, correct?

That's correct.

Now, you testified fairly extensively about these typing results at the criminal trial, did you not?

Yes, I did.

And you indicated on the third page of your results with respect to the fingernails, 84A and B, and 118A, the knife, that -- back out a little bit more -- that they could not have come from Nicole Brown Simpson, Ronald Goldman or O.J. Simpson, correct?

That's the first part of that paragraph, that's correct.

We'll get to the rest of it.

Then you also say, however, Nicole Brown Simpson cannot be excluded as a source of the stain in the EAP type B observed on the item, as it could be degraded from a type BA, correct?

That's correct.

Okay.

Now, you testified extensively at the criminal trial about the differences between a BA and a B, correct?

Yes, I did.

And I'd like you to grab a marker there. I think there's a blue marker on the table. Come down here, if you will.

Now, we don't really have to understand the whole process of EAP typing to understand the difference between a BA and a B, do we?

No.

Okay.

What I'd like you to do on the left side of that -- first of all, write at the top, BA.

On the right side, B.

Now, could you draw to enhance with other conventional serological testing and DNA testing the ultimate results are an X-ray type item with bands on it, right?

In this case it's not what you're describing as an X-ray type item. It's a gel that the bands that show up to give you an indication of what type. It kind of glows. In this case -- particular case, it's not a darker -- you do it in the dark under ultraviolet light and the bands show up as a glow.

The BA consists of 4 bands?

That's correct.

Why don't you draw those 4 bands in the general position of where they would be on your gel if you had a sample that had BA?

Okay, just to give a reference point, when you're running an electrophoresis gel you have an origin. That's just where -- where the sample starts from. You put a thread with your gel at a point called the origin. And in the case of the EAP system, each of the types breaks down to a couple of different bands for EAP. We have 4 bands, one a heavy band, a lighter band and a lighter band and a lighter band.

Those are given names. Why don't you write the names next to them.

They're given letter designations.

Trying to remember which direction they go.

It's like a -- well --

B2?

This is an indication of the B band. This 29, this is one of the A bands. And this could also be a B band.

I think the bottom one is A1, the bottom B is B1, and then it's A2 and B2, correct?

That's one of the ways of doing these.

Okay.

And the B2 bands and the A2 bands are referred to as the faster bands because they move farther on the gel, correct?

That's correct.

But once the test is done, if you were testing a BA that had 4 bands, that's what it would look like, correct?

Basically, yes.

Now, over on the column for the B, why don't you draw what a two banded B pattern looks like?

Again, you have the origin point and then you just have the two bands in the B regions.

And why don't you label those B, B1 and B2, correct?

Now, would you agree that the results that you found for the fingernails and the knife, number 118, looked like the B with the two bands, B1 and B2?

Yes.

Okay.

And your statement, or your testimony that -- that what you saw might be a degraded BA was based on the fact that there is scientific literature that indicates that under some circumstances you can have a BA that degrades down to a B, correct?

That's correct.

And you can go ahead and have a seat.

Now, sometimes you can have a B that just has the B1 band, correct? That's sometimes called a B as well, is it not?

Well, I wouldn't call it a B without having both bands being present.

Okay.

Now, during your preparation for the criminal trial, and during your testimony, we reviewed carefully all the scientific literature that there is that talks about a BA degrading to a B, did we not?

Only hearsay, Your Honor.

You can answer yes or no.

Yes, we did.

(BY MR. BLASIER) And you're familiar with that literature, are you not?

With some of it, yes.

Okay.

And would you agree that the literature that talks about a BA degrading to a B that describes how that process takes place, describes it as bands as it degrades disappearing from the top down?

Objection, calls for hearsay, Your Honor.

Overruled.

It does indicate, the literature does, that the direction of degradation does tend to be from either top or bottom. At this point, I don't specifically remember which one it is, but yes, it is -- it tends to be in one direction.

(BY MR. BLASIER) Okay.

From the top, which is what the literature says, what this means is as the stain degrades, first you lose B2, right?

Yes.

And you wind up with three bands, which still would be called a BA because you have two A bands and 1 B band?

According to the literature, they do talk about that as being one of the main degradation groups. I wouldn't call a BA or a B without having both B bands present.

Would you agree that the literature -- according to the literature, the degradation path, after you lose the B2, the next thing you lose is A2?

It does talk about that as one of the routes of degradation.

Then the next one you lose is B1, and finally, when it's all gone, you can't get a type, you lose A1, correct?

No, I believe the A bands are going to be gone first. It does not specifically mention an A band being the last one left.

Okay.

But you would agree that the literature that talks about this, has the B2 bands disappearing first and then the A2 band disappearing?

The literature does reference one of the B bands disappearing first, that's correct.

The literature that I've seen does not specifically say that that can occur. It describes the other situation we've been talking about.

Well, it didn't say that it can't occur either, did it?

There are references there that do leave it open to that possibility, and mention that the A bands disappear first. However, the majority of the pictures and the experimentation shown does show the route that you're talking about in the degradation of the -- one of the B bands prior to both A bands.

Well, there -- some of the literature says that you can have a B degraded from a BA but it doesn't tell you how it gets from a BA to a B, does it?

That's correct.

All the articles that tell you how to get from a BA to a B describe it as you lose B2, then you lose A2, correct, you lose it from the top down?

You do lose a B band along with one of the A's, that's correct.

So there is no specific scientific support in the literature for a two banded B pattern actually being degraded from a BA, correct?

And if you have typed Nicole Brown Simpson's fingernails -- scrapings under her fingernails correctly, that is consistent with blood from an unknown person being under her fingernails, correct?

That's all I have.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. LAMBERT: