Redirect examination of Laura Hart McKinny (2 of 2)

📄 Redirect examination of Laura Hart McKinny (2 of 2) — Wednesday, September 6, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\SEP\6\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-LAURA-.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 148 of 167

◀ Redirect examination scope discussion Sidebar: McKinny redirect ▶

Witness: Laura Hart McKinny
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Defense • Date: Wednesday, September 6, 1995 • Utterances: 201

Cochran conducts redirect examination of screenwriter Laura Hart McKinny, rehabilitating her credibility by establishing that she resisted the subpoena (fighting it through North Carolina courts at her own expense), cooperated equally with both sides once compelled to appear, and had legitimate professional reasons for her work. Cochran also reinforces the central point that Mark Fuhrman's use of the N-word 41+ times was unambiguously his own, not fabricated by McKinny.

# 1 (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

# 2 THE COURT:

All right. Miss McKinny, would you resume the witness stand, please.

# 3 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

# 4 THE COURT:

Thank you. All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. All right. The record should reflect that we have been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. And Mr. Cochran, you may continue with your redirect examination.

# 5 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you very kindly, your Honor. Good morning again, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

# 6 MR. COCHRAN:

Good morning, ms. McKinny.

# 7 MS. MCKINNY:

Good morning, Mr. Cochran.

# 8 MR. COCHRAN:

If I may continue, Miss McKinny, you had shared with us, in fact I think on cross-examination, you said that you have been out here since July 13th. Was that correct? Was it July 13th?

# 9 MS. MCKINNY:

No, it was incorrect.

# 10 MR. COCHRAN:

What is the correct date?

# 11 MS. MCKINNY:

August 13th.

# 12 MR. COCHRAN:

It may just seem like July 13th, is that it, but you have been here since August 13th?

# 13 MS. MCKINNY:

It has been a long time.

KEY QUOTE

# 14 MR. COCHRAN:

Is your family here with you?

# 15 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, my husband and boys are here.

# 16 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, ma'am, with regard to your coming to California, did you voluntarily come out here and bring your tapes and transcripts out here so you could come to California and testify?

# 17 MS. MCKINNY:

No, sir, I was subpoenaed by the court.

# 18 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And when you were subpoenaed by a subpoena issued by Judge Ito and this court, did you resist and fight that subpoena?

# 19 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, I did.

# 20 MR. COCHRAN:

And tell the court and jury what you did to fight that subpoena.

# 21 MS. MCKINNY:

I hired Mr. Regwan and Mr. Schwartz and they--

# 22 MR. COCHRAN:

The two gentlemen seated there?

# 23 MS. MCKINNY:

The two gentlemen seated there, and they flew to North Carolina and fought the subpoena in court there with Mr. Cochran and Mr. Bailey.

# 24 MR. COCHRAN:

So in other words, you first met me in North Carolina about a month ago; is that right?

# 25 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

# 26 MR. COCHRAN:

And you fought this subpoena at that time; isn't that correct? Winston Salem, North Carolina?

# 27 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

# 28 MR. COCHRAN:

In fact, you won in the initial hearing; isn't that correct?

# 29 MS. MCKINNY:

My attorneys did as well as a local firm with whom they were working.

# 30 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And thereafter--

# 31 THE COURT:

Excuse me, Mr. Cochran. I think there is--there is an impression here, you said that you were in North Carolina, I think needs to be--need or made clear to the jury that you were on one side and Mr. Regwan and Mr. Schwartz were on the other side at that time.

# 32 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes, your Honor. Thank you very kindly.

# 33 MR. COCHRAN:

When we were in Winston Salem, North Carolina, on a Friday morning you had your two fine lawyers, Messers. Regwan and Schwartz, right?

# 34 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

# 35 MR. COCHRAN:

But local counsel there in Winston Salem, right?

# 36 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

# 37 MR. COCHRAN:

And on the other side was myself, Mr. Bailey and our local North Carolina counsel; is that correct?

# 38 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

# 39 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And then at that point the Judge in North Carolina ruled for you so you wouldn't have to come to California; isn't that right?

# 40 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

# 41 MR. COCHRAN:

Then we continued to fight this matter and it went up to the North Carolina court of appeals; isn't that right?

# 42 MS. MCKINNY:

That's right.

# 43 MR. COCHRAN:

And that is where we won at that point; is that right? By "We" I mean Mr. Simpson's side won at that point?

# 44 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

# 45 MR. COCHRAN:

And I presume nobody was reimbursing you for the money you were spending? Lawyers aren't free, are they?

# 46 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, irrelevant.

# 47 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 48 MR. COCHRAN:

Nobody was--in other words, nobody was helping you pay for these lawyers you had back there, were you?

# 49 MS. MCKINNY:

No.

# 50 MR. COCHRAN:

And at some point when the North Carolina court of appeals upheld Judge Ito's subpoena, you then agreed to come to California; is that correct?

# 51 MS. MCKINNY:

I don't believe I had a choice. Certainly I would.

KEY QUOTE

# 52 MR. COCHRAN:

When the final court ruled you then came to California; is that right?

# 53 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

# 54 MR. COCHRAN:

And that was only after then when you produced and delivered these tapes; is that correct?

# 55 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

# 56 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And once you came to California with these tapes and these transcripts, the same date that you delivered them to the Defense, Mr. Simpson, you also delivered them to the Prosecution on that same date, did you not?

# 57 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

# 58 MR. COCHRAN:

And you tried to cooperate with them, didn't you?

# 59 MS. MCKINNY:

I have wanted to cooperate with the court, the Prosecution and the Defense, yes.

# 60 MR. COCHRAN:

In fact, Mr. Darden asked you if you came to California on August 13th. It was August 17th as he asked that you came down in this building in the D.A.'s office and met with all the D.A.'s and talked with them; isn't that right?

# 61 MS. MCKINNY:

That's right.

# 62 MR. COCHRAN:

And in that meeting they tape-recorded everything you had to say, didn't they?

# 63 MS. MCKINNY:

They did.

# 64 MR. COCHRAN:

And you also gave them a copy of your screenplay, didn't you?

# 65 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, I did.

# 66 MR. COCHRAN:

You cooperated fully, right?

# 67 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

# 68 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, with regard to your work as a screenwriter, also you described for Mr. Darden that you had won an award at some time in the past through the Writer's Guild of America. Tell the jury about that award and whether or not there was a cash stipend that went along with that award.

# 69 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. It is irrelevant.

# 70 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 71 MR. COCHRAN:

You may answer.

# 72 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes. It was an award I won in 1984 through the Writer's Guild of America East Foundation, so it was a competitive award for screenplays and there was a cash stipend, and along with that a request that you write another screenplay with a mentor of your choice. The cash stipend I used to purchase a computer and my laptop.

# 73 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You have done other screenplays in addition to this one Men Against Women; isn't that correct?

# 74 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

# 75 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, you shared with us and this jury that the premise of Men Against Women is sexism; is that correct?

# 76 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

# 77 MR. COCHRAN:

And are you opposed to sexism?

# 78 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, irrelevant.

# 79 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

# 80 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 81 MR. COCHRAN:

Yet you write a play about sexism, right?

# 82 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

# 83 MR. COCHRAN:

And would you describe for the jury why as a writer you write a play about sexism?

# 84 MS. MCKINNY:

It was a topic I wanted to explore from the man's point of view and the woman's point of view to try to understand better why some men would be so upset by what they felt as the incapable abilities (Sic) in some areas of high crime that they would form an organization called Men Against Women and be a part of that and why some women would be upset with some of the things that men were doing in making it difficult for them to perform their jobs, embarrassing them or humiliating them. So I wanted to try to have--to explore those issues and--and develop some kind of a dialogue or discussion.

# 85 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, I asked you a question before with regard to the whole concept of racism and writings regarding racism. During the time that you--1985, when you first encountered this man, Mark Fuhrman, you have described for us I believe that you were employed at UCLA working with Terry Donohue; is that correct?

# 86 MS. MCKINNY:

I was employed at UCLA working under the auspices of coach Terry Donohue in conjunction with the college of letters and sciences, yes.

# 87 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. In that connection did you work frequently with African American athletes?

# 88 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, I did.

# 89 MR. COCHRAN:

Would you describe for the court what you did during that time, and the jury.

# 90 MS. MCKINNY:

The--sorry. The NAA--the National Association--sorry.

# 91 MR. COCHRAN:

NAACP?

# 92 MS. MCKINNY:

No, not the NAACP.

# 93 THE COURT:

NCAA?

# 94 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, NCAA.

# 95 MR. COCHRAN:

Alphabet organizations.

# 96 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

# 97 MR. COCHRAN:

NCAA?

# 98 MS. MCKINNY:

Had demanded that athletes be studying courses in their field of expertise and not taking any class, so it was incumbent upon the athletic department during that period to hire educators who they felt would be able to work with athletes, high-risk athletes, athletes they felt might need extra counseling, extra tutorial time and understanding time management and study skills. So they hired--they would hire someone such as myself to work with what they called high-risk athletes and that is what I did during that time.

# 99 MR. COCHRAN:

And would some of these high-risk athletes be African American youngsters?

# 100 MS. MCKINNY:

In the beginning they were, yes.

# 101 MR. COCHRAN:

And did you interact with them on a daily basis?

# 102 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

# 103 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you enjoy that work?

# 104 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, very much.

# 105 MR. COCHRAN:

You were asked some questions about a document that Mr. Darden marked and at the top of it is called "Nondisclosure agreement." May I approach, your Honor?

# 106 THE COURT:

You may.

# 107 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you know what a nondisclosure agreement is, Miss McKinny, generally?

# 108 MS. MCKINNY:

Generally I do.

# 109 MR. COCHRAN:

And what is it?

# 110 MS. MCKINNY:

I have just recently learned what a nondisclosure agreement is. Umm, it is an agreement that you would give to another party and what it does is ask them not to discuss the material, not to show the material, not to copy the material. They cannot disclose or talk about the product or the material to anyone else.

# 111 MR. COCHRAN:

All right.

# 112 MS. MCKINNY:

As I understand it. Is that accurate? That is my understanding.

# 113 MR. COCHRAN:

I think so. As I understand the letter that is placed before you, August 18, 1995, from Mr. Michael Viner--address to Michael Viner to your lawyers, you had never seen that before Mr. Darden showed it to you; is that correct?

# 114 MS. MCKINNY:

That's true.

# 115 MR. COCHRAN:

And with regard to since you came to California, have you at any time ever authorized anyone to try and sell these tapes or screenplay--strike that--these tapes or transcriptions?

# 116 MS. MCKINNY:

No.

# 117 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And with regard to your lawyers, did they at some point tell you that it would be malpractice if they didn't try to find out for you what the value of these tapes and transcripts are worth?

# 118 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, hearsay.

# 119 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 120 MR. COCHRAN:

Did they tell you that?

# 121 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, they did.

# 122 MR. COCHRAN:

Did they try to find out the value of these tapes and transcriptions?

# 123 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

# 124 THE COURT:

Mr. Cochran, do you need to stand there, because you are blocking juror no. 7?

# 125 MR. COCHRAN:

No, I don't.

# 126 THE COURT:

Okay.

# 127 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 128 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, in that connection, even though you now found out the value of these items, and I won't ask you what the value is, you still have not tried to sell these, have you?

# 129 MS. MCKINNY:

No, I have not.

# 130 MR. COCHRAN:

What you do want to sell is your screenplay Men Against Women; isn't that right?

# 131 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, that would be lovely.

# 132 MR. COCHRAN:

That is what you want to do; isn't that right?

# 133 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

# 134 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, ma'am, you mentioned, in response to one of Mr. Darden's questions about specific cover-up as relates Men Against Women--and I want to ask you in that regard what did you mean when you talked about cover-up as relates to Men Against Women in this screenplay that you ultimately wrote? Would you tell us about that?

# 135 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes. One of the reasons why I was discovering that some women were having a difficult time being accepted into the police department in certain male circles--

# 136 MR. DARDEN:

I'm going to object at this time. Pardon me. I'm going to object at this time. It is nonresponsive.

# 137 MR. COCHRAN:

It is responsive, your Honor.

# 138 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 139 MR. COCHRAN:

You may continue.

# 140 MS. MCKINNY:

In certain circles officers didn't trust their confidence or their ability--

# 141 MR. DARDEN:

Object at this time, your Honor.

# 142 THE COURT:

Next question.

# 143 MR. COCHRAN:

Can you continue and tell us--can you answer the question, please?

# 144 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, your Honor.

# 145 THE COURT:

It is turning into a narrative. Why don't you ask her the next question, counsel.

# 146 MR. COCHRAN:

All right, your Honor.

# 147 MR. COCHRAN:

When you--Mr. Darden asked you about this cover-up as relates Men Against Women, can you succinctly state for this jury what you meant and what you had reference to?

# 148 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

# 149 MR. DARDEN:

I'm going to object to the form of that question.

# 150 THE COURT:

Overruled. Go ahead and answer the question.

# 151 MS. MCKINNY:

Some women on the police department were not willing to follow--

# 152 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. Your Honor, I'm sorry, may we approach?

# 153 THE COURT:

No. Overruled. Answer the question, Miss McKinny, please.

KEY QUOTE

# 154 MS. MCKINNY:

Some women on the police department were not willing to adhere to some of the cover-ups that men were--

# 155 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, your Honor, 352.

# 156 THE COURT:

Ask another question.

# 157 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, you said that some women on the police department were not willing to adhere--

# 158 MR. DARDEN:

Your Honor, may we approach, please?

# 159 THE COURT:

This is not the topic, counsel. Let's redirect back into that topic.

# 160 MR. COCHRAN:

All right, your Honor.

# 161 MR. COCHRAN:

With regard to this subject of cover-up, can you tell us what you had reference to specifically in the area that Mr. Darden asked you about cover-ups as relates women and men on the Los Angeles Police Department?

# 162 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. The question is vague. 352.

# 163 THE COURT:

Overruled. Miss McKinny, we are speaking about the specific topic about the controversy about women as police officers in areas of high violence or high crime, the topic of your book.

# 164 MS. MCKINNY:

Right. That is the sexism issue that relates to why women were unable to cover-up some issues the same way men were and it is related. They are interchangeable.

# 165 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, your Honor.

# 166 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 167 MS. MCKINNY:

They are interchangeable. Sexism is what I was looking into, but what I found out was--

# 168 MR. DARDEN:

Objection.

# 169 MS. MCKINNY:

--related to cover-ups, that men were--

# 170 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, Judge.

# 171 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 172 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, I couldn't hear the last answer.

# 173 THE COURT:

Finish the answer.

# 174 MR. COCHRAN:

Finish, please.

# 175 MS. MCKINNY:

Sexism was the issue that interested me, what I was looking into, but what I was finding was that--

# 176 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, conclusion.

# 177 MR. COCHRAN:

Can she finish her answer?

# 178 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 179 MS. MCKINNY:

What I was finding was that sexism is inextricably related to certain cover-ups that some men on the police department are doing and some women are not able to agree with that or follow along those lines and that was a huge schism between men and women.

# 180 MR. COCHRAN:

And in that connection can you give us like an example of this, of this schism between Men Against Women where--as a result of a cover-up?

# 181 MR. DARDEN:

352, your Honor.

# 182 THE COURT:

Sustained. Sustained. We've covered it.

# 183 MR. COCHRAN:

May I have a second, your Honor?

# 184 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)

# 185 MR. COCHRAN:

I will ask another question in this regard, your Honor.

# 186 MR. COCHRAN:

Did Mark Fuhrman ever explain to you why he wouldn't trust a woman in this--from the standpoint of cover-up?

# 187 MR. DARDEN:

Object, your Honor.

# 188 THE COURT:

Sustained. It is not relevant.

# 189 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, Mr. Darden asked you a lot of questions about why you didn't stop Mark Fuhrman from using this "N" word or whatever. Do you recall those questions?

# 190 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

# 191 MR. COCHRAN:

And is there any doubt in your mind now as you sit here that Mark Fuhrman used this horrible word 41 or more times during the time that you were talking to him? Any doubt in your mind at all?

# 192 MR. DARDEN:

Misstates the testimony.

# 193 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 194 MS. MCKINNY:

No.

# 195 MR. COCHRAN:

And those were his words coming from his mouth; is that right?

# 196 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

# 197 MR. COCHRAN:

Those weren't your words, were they?

# 198 MS. MCKINNY:

No.

# 199 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, before I conclude, may I approach just for a moment, please?

# 200 THE COURT:

With the court reporter, please.

# 201 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Laura Hart McKinny

I don't believe I had a choice. Certainly I would.

Establishes she came to California only under legal compulsion, undermining any suggestion she was volunteering to harm Fuhrman or aid the defense.

Laura Hart McKinny

No.

Direct, unequivocal answer to Cochran's question whether she had any doubt that Fuhrman used the N-word 41 or more times — the core fact Cochran needed the jury to retain.

Laura Hart McKinny

Sexism is inextricably related to certain cover-ups that some men on the police department are doing and some women are not able to agree with that or follow along those lines and that was a huge schism between men and women.

McKinny finally completes her answer about the 'cover-up' theme of her screenplay after repeated Darden objections, connecting LAPD sexism to institutional cover-up culture.

Laura Hart McKinny

It has been a long time.

Humanizing moment — she has been away from home since August 13th with her family, underscoring the burden the subpoena placed on her.

Evidence (3)

Informal

Nondisclosure agreement letter dated August 18, 1995 from Michael Viner to McKinny's lawyers

Discussed — Cochran establishes McKinny had never seen it before Darden showed it to her on cross

Informal

The Fuhrman tapes and transcripts

Referenced — Cochran confirms McKinny delivered copies to both Defense and Prosecution on the same date

Informal

Screenplay 'Men Against Women'

Discussed — Cochran rehabilitates its literary purpose and McKinny's professional credentials around it

Notable Exchanges (3)

Johnnie Cochran•Christopher Darden•Lance A. Ito

Sustained objection battle over McKinny's cover-up testimony: Darden objects repeatedly (at least 7 times in sequence) as McKinny tries to explain the Men Against Women 'cover-up' theme; Ito ultimately sustains on 352 grounds after allowing most of the answer through.

heated

Lance A. Ito•Johnnie Cochran

Ito interrupts to clarify for the jury that Cochran and McKinny's lawyers were on opposite sides in North Carolina, correcting a potential misleading impression in Cochran's questioning.

procedural

Lance A. Ito•Johnnie Cochran

Ito tells Cochran he is blocking juror no. 7 by standing in front of them.

procedural

Light Moments (2)

Johnnie Cochran

McKinny confuses NCAA with NAACP; Ito interjects 'NCAA?' and Cochran quips 'Alphabet organizations.'

Laura Hart McKinny

When Cochran asks what McKinny wants to sell, she responds 'Yes, that would be lovely' about her screenplay.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Laura Hart McKinny

Rehabilitation of prior cross-examination

Cochran rehabilitates the implication from cross that McKinny was voluntarily cooperating with or profiting from the defense — establishing she fought the subpoena at her own expense through two court levels.

⚔ Laura Hart McKinny

Rehabilitation re: financial motive

Cochran addresses the Viner nondisclosure letter raised on cross, establishing McKinny never authorized sale of the tapes and that exploring their value was her lawyers' idea, not hers.

Objections

22 objections (3 sustained, 15 overruled)

Proceeding 7532 • 201 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103