All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. All right. Mr. Cochran, you may call your next witness.
Yes. Thank you, your Honor. The Defense will next call Miss Laura Hart McKinny to the stand.
Before we do that, excuse me just a minute, Miss McKinny. Ladies and gentlemen, present here at counsel table is Mr. Ken Spaulding. Mr. Spaulding, would you please stand. Mr. Spaulding is an attorney from, I believe North Carolina, who has been assisting the Defense, and that explains his presence here in court. Thank you, Mr. Spaulding. Mr. Cochran.
All right. Miss McKinny, would you face the clerk, please.
Laura Hart McKinny, called as a witness by the Defendant, was sworn and testified as follows:
Please raise your right hand. You do solemnly swear that the testimony you may give in the cause now pending before this court, shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God.
Please have a seat on the witness stand and state and spell your first and last names for the record.
I'm a filmmaker in residence at the North Carolina school of the arts school of filmmaking, professor of screen writing.
All right. Now, in that connection, prior to moving to North Carolina, did you live in California?
All right. Now, when you were last here in California, what was your occupation then?
I was a freelance writer and I worked at UCLA as a senior learning skills counselor and also at Santa Monica Malibu unified school district as a home instructor.
And how long did you have those two occupations, both at UCLA and the Malibu school district?
I started working for Malibu school district in 1974 or 1973, and for UCLA in 1983.
All right. Now, I would like to direct your attention back to the month of April of 1985. Did you have occasion during that month and during that year to meet an individual by the name of Mark Fuhrman?
All right. Let's specifically direct you back to February of 1985. And did you have occasion to meet Mark Fuhrman during that time frame?
Would you tell the jury where you were at the time that you first met Mark Fuhrman. You might pull the microphone up a little bit closer to you.
(Witness complies.) All right. I was at a cafe in Westwood. I don't remember the name of the cafe, but I believe it was on Westwood Boulevard.
I was sitting in the outside of the cafe. There were tables on the outside and I was sitting there. I was working on my laptop computer and a man dressed in street clothes came up and asked me about my computer. That was a fairly common thing for people to do then because this was a time when laptops weren't that familiar to people and often people would come and ask me what it was and how you used it. So this man asked me what I was doing and what that was and I explained to him that it was a laptop and explained to him how it worked.
Thereafter, during that conversation, did you have occasion to--strike that. Were you working on some particular project at that time?
I was transcribing some notes and at the time I was thinking about developing a story about women in the police department and to what extent they were successful in different--different kind of areas. I was thinking of particular areas of high crime.
All right. Now, after you first met Mark Fuhrman in February of 1985 did you thereafter have further meetings with him?
All right. Tell us about those meetings. And did you at some point engage him as a consultant or an advisor for a screenplay you were working on?
During our first meeting Officer Fuhrman at that time told me he was an officer, and he was interested in my idea of working on a story about women in--on the police department, and the extent to which they could succeed in areas of high crime. Officer Fuhrman had very strong views about the extent to which women--some women--
Well, did Officer Fuhrman have views about the ability of women to succeed in high crime areas?
He had strong views about women's ability to be able to succeed in areas of high crime, feeling that some of them were not capable of that, and during this particular first meeting he told me that he would--
You were able to garner some of his views about women in law enforcement during the first meeting; is that correct?
Did you, at or during that first meeting, make some arrangements to meet further with Mr. Fuhrman regarding his views and whether or not he could help you with interviews that you might want to conduct?
All right. Well, tell us about what you did in that connection. Did you retain him at some point?
I didn't retain him. I asked him if he would be interested in helping me give some ideas, some personal views that might help generate some thoughts about characters and police procedures and other areas that might be useful to me in helping understand the kind of frustrations that men had on the police department and women and possibly some of the cover-ups that might occur in conjunction with that. And he agreed to help me to that extent and give me some of his personal views, some ideas that he might have, and so we agreed to meet again and tape the interviews.
All right. And you told him you wanted to tape the interviews that you conducted with him, did you?
He was giving me a great deal of material that would be hard for me to process, to understand, unless I listened to it, because I had to understand it sequentially to be able to write it cinematically, so sometimes it was police procedure, sometimes it was different kind of things people were saying and it would have been difficult to take copious notes and actually to listen to him attentively.
Now, these interviews that you had with Detective Fuhrman, were all of those interviews taped, as best you can recall?
And tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury over what period of time did you conduct these taped interviews with Mark Fuhrman after your initial meeting with him in February of 1985?
Approximately from the beginning of April, April 2nd, I believe, through July, 1994.
So over almost a ten-year period of time you had taped interviews with this man; is that correct?
Now, with regard to these interviews, what did you call these interviews with Mr. Fuhrman?
And in talking with this man, what were you trying to get from him? Were you trying to get information from him?
I was trying to get some idea of the frustrations that some men who belong to a particular group called men against women on the police department, some kind of frustrations that they might have that would cause them to want to join a group like that, and then try to understand--
Then try to understand as well some of the areas in which women might feel frustrated by being stonewalled and embarrassed and humiliated by men.
Now, in that connection, before you started taping these interviews, did Detective Fuhrman know that you were taping these interviews?
And did you give him any--did you tell him--strike that. What did you tell him with regard to how you wanted him to talk? Did you want him to talk freely and openly think to you and use words like police officers use?
What did you tell him about the conversation or the kind of things you wanted him to share with you regarding police work?
I told him that I wanted to write a fictional piece based on fact, so it was very important to me that I had a really clear idea of what some police officers would say in a given situation, so that the instances that he would give me would be as factual and realistic as possible.
Now, in that connection, after you would--before you would have a meeting with Detective Fuhrman, would you ever provide him with any questions, the kind of questions you would ask during your actual meeting?
Not for every meeting, but for our second meeting, the meeting after April 2nd, I compiled a list of questions based on some of his responses to that particular interview and sent them to him along with the interview so that he could refer back to some excerpts in the interview and then be prepared for some of the questions that I might--that we might want to talk about, anything that he might feel comfortable discussing in our next meeting, so I can't always include questions.
Let's talk about your procedure with regard to the taping of the interviews. After you had taped the interview and the interview had concluded, would you then do something with regard to transcribing those tapes?
Yes. I would take the tape back home and put it in my transcribing machine. I have a cassette transcriber and professional cassette transcribing machine and a micro cassette transcribing machine which allows you to modulate the speed of speech and also the volume, and it has a foot pedal so that you can rewind at your leisure and review things that you are not sure about. So then I would put whatever cassette I was using in there, and transcribe it within a day or two of the interview, for my records.
Now, with regard to your transcribing habits, had you had a job prior to this time, prior to 1985, where you had done transcribing before that?
During college I worked through--not through college, but through a large part of it, for a few years at retail credit company. It is a place that was in Van Nuys and I was a professional transcriber.
So as a professional transcriber you knew how to transcribe at the time you set about to transcribe these tapes; is that correct?
And with regard to that did you try to get--transcribe it accurately as best you could?
And why did you want to transcribe it accurately? How would that be helpful to you?
Well, again, initially I knew very little about the police department and I was doing other extensive interviews and research, ride-alongs, lots of research at the Los Angeles Police Academy. But when someone was going to be--going to be telling me specific events or issues that I needed to understand clearly, I would need to take that down as accurately as possible so that I--when I refreshed my memory the details that I would give would be accurate, so that when someone would read it or hopefully see it as a feature, they would know that it was an accurate well-researched project. So it was very important for me to transcribe the interviews accurately.
Did you, at the outset in 1985--was there a difference in the way you transcribed in `85 and later on in, let's say, 1988 or in 1994? Was there any difference?
Again, in the beginning I wanted to be as precise as possible. Also I was developing a story, but as the outline of the story became clear and the treatment, which is a narrative short version of the story, as I understood what that was about, my questions to Officer Fuhrman at that time were sometimes more topical, so that when I would transcribe it I might leave out my question and I might just put in the topic. It also had something to do with the fact that I had just had two children during that period of time, from 1986 to the early `90's, and was married and I was very busy, so I didn't take as much time to transcribe my questions and all the finite kind of detail. People interrupted us in the restaurant, I would keep that out.
All right. Did you ever at any time in transcribing these transcripts ever substitute a word or put a word in that Mr. Fuhrman didn't say?
Your Honor, I'm going to ask if I can approach the witness and what has previously been marked at another hearing 1364, and I want to just ask her a couple questions regarding it.
I want to place before you Defendant's 1364 which I believe indicates "Fuhrman questions round two." Would you tell the jury just briefly what that is, Miss McKinny.
This is the--an example of the questions that I gave Officer Fuhrman after our first interview on April 2nd, 1985. This is what I sent to him in conjunction with the taped transcript of that first interview.
All right. Now, with regard to this--you have told us about the interviews with Mark Fuhrman and you have also told us that you were working as a result of these interviews on a screenplay called men against women; is that correct?
And the--was a subplot of your screenplay men against women dealing with racism at all?
All right. Now, with regard to the taped interviews, over the ten-year period that we have been talking about, do you remember how many tapes you actually transcribed over that period of time?
How many tapes were actually transcribed? Over the ten-year period how many hours?
And I presume during those eleven to twelve hours you tried to be as accurate as possible, right?
Now, with regard to the eleven or twelve hours, did you ever at any point inadvertently tape over any of the tapes?
Now, on April 2nd, 1985, would I be correct that after your interview was conducted with Detective Fuhrman you then transcribed it within a day or so?
And in seeking to transcribe it was your memory fresh at the time you transcribed it?
And were the resulting transcripts or transcript a true account of what Mr. Fuhrman said during that interview?
All right. Now, was there another time that there was another tape that was inadvertently taped over later on?
All right. But with regard to tape no. 9, if I were to ask the same questions, did you seek to transcribe that tape within a day or so after the interview?
All right. Now, the last interview you had with this man was July 28, 1994; is that right?
Now, during the time that you talked with Mr. Fuhrman during this ten-year period of time, did he ever use a racial epithet which I will call the "N" word, during the course of your conversations with him?
And in the course of your preparation of your testimony here today can you tell the jury how many times you counted that he used that word?
And when he would use this word in the course--strike that. In what circumstances would he use this word in being interviewed and talking to you?
Umm, well, the--the tapes were--the interviews were confidential and Officer Fuhrman certainly didn't think that--
Can you describe for the jury under what circumstances he would use this so-called "N" word? Was he talking about?
Let me see. The word would come up in conversation when he might be talking about how an officer might deal with a suspect or a police procedural issue or how an officer might be talking about someone in administration, just general normal language.
All right. When you would hear these words of this particular epithet, would that have an effect upon you.
It is a base epithet. There is no way of doctoring it up and making it sound better. It is offensive and I didn't feel good about it, hearing it; however, I was in very much of a journalistic mode and knew to be able to get the information that I needed, to be able to inquire from Officer Fuhrman, I would need to not react, not to be judgmental about hearing some of the very base offensive kinds of things that I would be hearing.
KEY QUOTESo you didn't agree with the use of these words, is that what you are saying to us?
And in the use of these words and other things during when he was talking to you, would he describe his experiences in police work?
Certainly. In the use of these words and during the course of the interview did Detective Fuhrman describe his experiences in being a police officer?
Now, with regard to the 41 or 42 times that he used the so-called "N," word can you describe for the jury how he appeared as he used this word?
Yes. During the 41 or 42 times that Mr. Fuhrman used the word "Nigger" did you--could you tell us how he appeared as he did that?
When Officer Fuhrman used the word "Nigger" it was in a very casual ordinary pattern of speech. It was nothing extraordinary. It was just conversation.
Would you describe the demeanor of Detective Fuhrman or Mr. Fuhrman while he was using this word 41 or 42 times?
He was answering it in a serious fashion. It was some--a word that apparently he felt--
All right. You may answer the question. Let me ask it again, your Honor. Can you describe--and I want you to paint a word picture for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury--of how he appeared when he was using this word this 41 or 42 times, as best you recall, the best description.
When Officer Fuhrman used this word it was in conjunction to many of the things we would be discussing and it was in a serious manner. It was not light-hearted. It was something that he would use in normal conversation.
All right. When he used this word, did he appear to you to be using it in a way that was insulting?
It was insulting to me. The word is insulting. And when he was using it he was using it in a demeaning derogatory fashion. I don't know that he would think it was insulting, but--
In the course of the time that you came to interview this man over ten years, did you ever form an opinion of whether or not he was a racist?
With regard to how this man referred to African Americans, did he ever use any other words in referring to African Americans?
Yes. I'm going to strike the last question and answer. Disregard that. That is an area that is beyond--
Now, with regard to the 42 or so instances in which this man used this offensive word, some of those words are on tape; is that correct?
And you can, if I were to play at least one of those tapes for you, you can identify the--Mr. Fuhrman's voice, could you not?
Now, with regard to--we have two excerpts, your Honor, we would like to play at this point, if we--I think that we have transcripts of the two excerpts, one of which is on tape and one of which is not. I would like to pass these out to the jury if we can, your Honor, take a look at those.
Given the time it will take to pass that out and collect it, it is something we can put on the elmo.
It will be up on the screen also, but at some point I would like to mark it, your Honor.
He has a copy. Mr. Douglas gave him a copy, so he can look at it and read his own copy. May I mark this as our next, your Honor?
Your Honor, I would like to mark as the Defendant's next 1368 as the tape that Mr. Harris will be playing.
Mr. Harris has some speakers, your Honor, he is going to move at this point, if the court pleases.
With regard to these two excerpts, you have shared with us there is some 42 or more instances where he uses this offensive word. This--
With regard to this first instance that we are going to be seeing shortly, can you give us some background? I will use--I will use the--I will read it, your Honor, and ask her to give us some background regarding this. In this particular one, I believe this is one where it was taped over and we have just a transcript; is that correct?
And the quote by Fuhrman is, "We have no niggers where I grew up." Do you recall him saying that?
And with regard to that particular one, about having no African Americans where he grew up, can you compare that with the other 42 others, from the standpoint of how he used that word in that compared to the others?
It is a vague question as well and I don't know that anybody can really answer that question.
With regard to this instance where "We have no blank where I grew up," do you have that in mind?
Can you compare that with the other 42 times or so that he used this in the course of your interviews, if there is any difference between how he used the term there and the other 42 times or so?
Yes, there is a significance difference here. This particular example is the least offensive and inflammatory in comparison to the others.
All right. I'm going to strike that answer. Ladies and gentlemen, that is a judgment that is not--at this point in time you are to disregard that last question and answer. Next question.
With regard to--let's move down to the second incident we have been allowed to use for Fuhrman speaking, "They don't do anything, they don't go out there and initiate a contact with some six-foot-five inch Nigger that has been in prison for seven years pumping weights." Do you recall Mr. Fuhrman saying that to you at some point?
Was that an interview where you had another person present with you, a Miss Laurie Diaz?
You heard Detective Fuhrman, interacting with Laurie Diaz, make the statement I just read; is that correct?
All right. And if you were to see these--hear this on tape, would you be able to identify Mr. Fuhrman's voice?
And would you--I don't know if we are going to hear Miss Diaz' voice or not, but you could identify his voice; is that correct?
Very well, your Honor. If the court please, may we have Mr. Harris put up the--I want to go back and ask a question regarding the first one that is not on tape and then we will have Mr. Harris play that.
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. May I have an opportunity to hear what they are going to play, given the possibility of other voices on the tape?
While he is doing that, can we pass out the excerpts, your Honor, while he is doing that? May I? May I approach?
Mr. Cochran, juror no. 98 is indicating that she has two of the same pages. Do you have any other copies?
All right. Mr. Darden, would you change that with juror no. 98 and give it to Deputy Bashmakian, please. Thank you.
Mr. Harris is trying to locate it, your Honor. Apparently he had it cued up and he is having trouble finding it now.
Miss McKinny, did Mr. Fuhrman ever at any time apologize to you for the way in which he used this word, this "N" word?
Your Honor, Mr. Harris has found it. He is indicating it is not coming through his headphones. That is the problem.
Well, I would like to have Mr. Darden have the opportunity to--we have to do this with the--without the headphones? In other words, he can't cue it up just on a system through his headphones?
It is not playing through the headphones is the problem. It will take less than a minute, your Honor.
When Officer Fuhrman used the word 'Nigger' it was in a very casual ordinary pattern of speech. It was nothing extraordinary. It was just conversation.
Approximately 42.
We have no niggers where I grew up.
They don't do anything, they don't go out there and initiate a contact with some six-foot-five inch Nigger that has been in prison for seven years pumping weights.
It is a base epithet. There is no way of doctoring it up and making it sound better. It is offensive and I didn't feel good about it, hearing it; however, I was in very much of a journalistic mode and knew to be able to get the information that I needed, to be able to inquire from Officer Fuhrman, I would need to not react.