📄 Redirect examination of Herbert MacDonell — Monday, September 18, 1995
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\SEP\18\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-HERBER.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 156 of 167

Redirect examination of Herbert MacDonell

Witness: Prof. Herbert MacDonell
Examiner: Peter Neufeld
Called by: Defense • Date: Monday, September 18, 1995 • Utterances: 32
Peter Neufeld conducts a brief redirect examination of Prof. MacDonell, attempting to rehabilitate his glove shrinkage testimony after Marcia Clark's cross-examination. Neufeld focuses on three points: that the gloves lacked water-repellent treatment (naked leather), that the gloves showed no meaningful shrinkage despite repeated freeze-thaw cycles over a year, and that the environmental conditions in MacDonell's experiment were no less realistic than the actual crime scene conditions.
1 THE COURT:

Mr. Neufeld.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. NEUFELD

2 MR. NEUFELD:

But you did give your opinion that whatever caused it wasn't the amount of blood that was smeared on it on the night of June 12th; isn't that correct, sir?

PROF. MACDONELL: No.

3 MS. CLARK:

Objection.

PROF. MACDONELL: If I would have used 10 times as much blood, I could get 10 times as much shrinkage, which is 10 times. Nothing is still nothing. So I wouldn't use anymore.

4 MR. NEUFELD:

Thank you. And, sir, do you remember when Miss Clark asked you some questions about shrinkage and new gloves versus old gloves, do you recall Mr. Rubin's testimony that these gloves were made with something known as naked leather?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes.

5 MR. NEUFELD:

And are you aware of the fact, sir, that these gloves did not have any scotch guard or other type of water repellent chemical sprayed on it?

6 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Misstates.

PROF. MACDONELL: That's correct.

7 MR. NEUFELD:

That's it. And applied to it?

8 THE COURT:

Sustained. I mean overruled. There's no testimony about spray treatment. Proceed.

9 MR. NEUFELD:

And, sir, are you aware of the fact that between June 21st, 1994 and June of 1995, a year later, that these gloves were frozen and thawed many times in the crime laboratory?

PROF. MACDONELL: I think I've been told that. I would not be surprised. If they keep them in a freezer, to examine them, they have to take them out.

10 MR. NEUFELD:

And are you aware of the fact that notwithstanding that they were frozen and thawed and frozen and thawed and frozen and thawed repeatedly over that 12-month period of time, when the gloves were measured in June of this year, they were not any smaller than they were on June 21st of 1994?

11 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Misstates the testimony.

12 THE COURT:

Sustained. Sustained.

13 MR. NEUFELD:

To your--did you have an opportunity to see a diagram that was made by Susan Brockbank of the gloves in question in this case at some point during your investigation of this matter?

PROF. MACDONELL: I may have. I do not honestly remember.

14 MR. NEUFELD:

Do you recall that the measurements of Susan Brockbank testified to regarding the gloves in June of 1995 were not at all different--I'm sorry--were not at all more than one percent different in 1995 than they were in 1994?

15 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Your Honor, objection. That's--

16 THE COURT:

Overruled.

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes, I do remember that. I believe I saw that particular testimony.

17 MR. NEUFELD:

And finally, sir, Miss Clark asked you a series of questions about whether you could replicate every condition that these gloves were in when they were recovered on the morning of June 13th and she showed you a picture before or asked you about when you did your experiment, did you put the glove in soil. Remember her asking you that?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes.

18 MR. NEUFELD:

Well, would soil make the gloves any wetter than the blood did?

19 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Calls for speculation, no foundation.

20 THE COURT:

Sustained. Sustained.

21 MR. NEUFELD:

Would putting the--would--given the fact that there is no testimony at all in this case about any precipitation or any wetness at the Bundy location, would putting the glove under a plant or plant leaf make any difference in the amount of wetness that those gloves--I'm sorry--that those gloves had as a result of being soaked with blood?

22 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Misstates the testimony.

23 THE COURT:

Overruled.

PROF. MACDONELL: I cannot imagine how it would, no.

24 MR. NEUFELD:

And, sir, she also showed you the photograph the way the glove appeared at Rockingham when it was collected on the morning of June 13th. Did you see that photograph?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes.

25 MR. NEUFELD:

Do you see anywhere in that photograph leaves glistening to indicate there was any moisture at all on those leaves?

26 MS. CLARK:

Objection, your Honor. Objection.

27 THE COURT:

Sustained.

28 MR. NEUFELD:

Would the fact that there is no moisture on those leaves or on that pavement do anything--

29 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Misstates, no foundation.

30 THE COURT:

Assumes facts not in evidence, counsel. We've already talked about the dew, we've talked about the humidity, we've talked about these other factors. The jury knows what he said.

31 MR. NEUFELD:

Would the fact that the glove in your experiment is not on pavement but is in that glass contraption that you created, would that make any difference, any appreciable difference in the results you generated?

PROF. MACDONELL: I didn't create it. I got it from the research laboratory. No, I don't think that it would.

32 MR. NEUFELD:

Thank you very much.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (3)

Prof. MacDonell
If I would have used 10 times as much blood, I could get 10 times as much shrinkage, which is 10 times. Nothing is still nothing. So I wouldn't use anymore.
MacDonell defends his experiment's methodology, arguing that scaling up the blood quantity would not change the fundamental result — no shrinkage from blood alone.
Prof. MacDonell
I cannot imagine how it would, no.
MacDonell dismisses Clark's implication that soil or plant cover would have materially increased glove wetness, supporting the defense's argument that the crime scene conditions were adequately replicated.
Prof. MacDonell
I didn't create it. I got it from the research laboratory. No, I don't think that it would.
MacDonell corrects Neufeld's characterization of his experiment apparatus while maintaining that the container used had no appreciable effect on his results — a small but humanizing moment of precision.

Evidence (4)

Informal
Susan Brockbank's glove measurements from June 1994 and June 1995 showing less than one percent difference in size
discussed
Informal
Photograph of the Rockingham glove as collected on the morning of June 13th, 1994
discussed
Informal
The gloves themselves — described as 'naked leather' without scotch guard or water-repellent treatment, per Rubin's prior testimony
discussed
Informal
MacDonell's glove shrinkage experiment apparatus, sourced from a research laboratory
discussed

Notable Exchanges (2)

Peter NeufeldLance A. Ito
Judge Ito sustained objections to Neufeld's questions about leaf moisture and pavement, noting 'We've already talked about the dew, we've talked about the humidity, we've talked about these other factors. The jury knows what he said.' Ito also momentarily said 'Sustained' before correcting himself to 'Overruled' on the water-repellent question.
procedural
Peter NeufeldProf. MacDonell
When Neufeld referred to the experiment apparatus as something MacDonell 'created,' MacDonell corrected him: 'I didn't create it. I got it from the research laboratory.' A small moment of the witness asserting precision even on redirect.
revealing

Light Moments (1)

Lance A. Ito
Judge Ito said 'Sustained. I mean overruled.' — catching himself mid-ruling and reversing on the scotch guard/water repellent question.

Objections

9 objections (5 sustained, 3 overruled)
Proceeding 7720 • 32 utterances • Defense witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 SEP 18, 1995 📄 Redirect examination of Herber
SEP 18, 1995 KRT DvH TD