Indeed we do. All right. Mr. Cochran, assuming that the Prosecution rests their case at this point--and I've indicated to them that I'm going to allow them to conditionally rest because you have not concluded your Defense case. You know how that goes.
Yes. I would like to proceed right away and I would like the court's indulgence because some of the witnesses we can't get until tomorrow probably. So at this point, I'd like to call Dr. Herbert MacDonell. It might be better to characterize him as a surrebuttal witness, but we'd like to call him now. We'd like to proceed.
Primarily as to the glove drying, glove shrinkage in light of the testimony of Mr. Rubin when he came back here in the rebuttal case.
May I be heard? Obviously, this has got to be part of the Defense surrebuttal, correct? I don't know what it relates to in terms of dr.--excuse me--Mr. Rubin's testimony. How is it relevant?
Well, Mr. Rubin testified that when he looked at the gloves that Mr. Simpson was wearing initially in 1990 and wearing up until December of 1993 I believe, he testified that--in fact, I think he testified that the gloves appeared in the pictures to be somewhat bigger even in 1993 than they were in 1990. That in conjunction with his earlier testimony back in June of this year, leads to the clear inference that the substantial shrinkage that occurred, which he said was about 15 percent, was due from the blood being soaked and smeared on the gloves during the night that these two people were killed. It had been somewhat suggested before that that could have been the result of weather. But since we saw Mr. Simpson wearing these gloves in a number of pictures where it's raining on them, where it's snowing on them, where it's sleeting on them--
Okay. A lot of rain and very cold rain and discussion of hand warmers and the like. But nonetheless, the gloves were at least as large at the end of `93 as they were in December of 1990, and the inference unmistakenly the Prosecution will be arguing is that 15 percent shrinkage occurred as a result of the event of June 12th, 1994. And so he will be testifying to his glove drying experiment which deals with substantial quantities of blood being smeared on the gloves to show that that's just not right.
No. It was still photos and which were given to the People and given to the court. We had a hearing on the admissibility of this evidence and you ruled that it was admissible.
I thought--okay. It was my recollection Mr. Rubin's testimony, your Honor, that he testified it was a combination of the weather conditions to which gloves would be subjected as well as perhaps the introduction of the blood with the freezing and the drying and the unfreezing, et cetera. But the issue is really not shrinkage as much as it is stretchability, and I don't think that anything Mr. Rubin testified to in the People's rebuttal case opens up that issue for Mr. MacDonell.
We did discuss, however, the issue of shrinkage during the course of Mr. Rubin's third appearance as a witness and we discussed it in terms of the weather conditions, in terms of rain and in terms of the heat generated by hand warmers if such were the case. So we did discuss the shrinkage during the course of--and if you recollect, the argument was that the Defense also withheld for tactical reasons presenting Dr. MacDonell on this shrinkage experiment so as to hope to preclude Mr. Rubin from coming back and testifying again with--
And I understand that. But--and the court's characterization of course with respect to Mr. Rubin's testimony and it being subject to weather conditions, but it had nothing to do with shrinkage caused by the introduction of blood on the gloves, and that's the subject matter of the glove drying experiment that Mr. MacDonell performed. So it's not relevant surrebuttal because we are talking apples and oranges. Mr. Rubin talked about the weather conditions to which the gloves were subjected. Mr. MacDonell is supposed to talk about what happened to the gloves as a result of blood, and that's two different things.
But I think the point though that Mr. Neufeld is trying to make is that soaking in blood can account for the amount of shrinkage that we see here and that if it fits Mr. Simpson apparently as it does in the videotapes as well as it does, then it may not be the same pair of gloves now since the one that we have here in evidence, there appears to be shrinkage by 15 percent I think. I think that is the inference they're trying to draw here.
It is. But is it a fair inference and is it fair in terms of surrebuttal in view of what we introduced in our rebuttal case? It's not the same thing. If you talk about subjecting it to weather conditions, you might let Mr. MacDonell testify he's a glove expert and he knows what the fat liquor and all the other aspects of leather is going to do when they're subjected to weather conditions, but it certainly has nothing to do with introduction of blood. I mean, we are talking apples and oranges here. So I don't see the relevance here in addition to what kind of gloves did he test.
All right. My recollection though is that he did the glove experiment on one of the gloves that were from--
He did the experiment on the glove that Mr. Rubin provided, which are the Aris Isotoner lights, the same exact pair of gloves that Mr. Darden used for his second glove demonstration with new gloves.
KEY QUOTEAll right. I am going to overrule the objection. Miss Clark, do you have your materials?
Why don't we take a recess then until 2:00 o'clock. Get your materials and then we'll reconvene. I'll allow you to rest conditionally in front--rest the People's rebuttal case subject to application should it become necessary to reopen and proceed. Then we'll proceed.
I just want you to also know in light of--I've also had Professor MacDonell listen to Mr. Bodziak's testimony, and he may also be rebutting certain things he just heard Mr. Bodziak say this morning. I'm talking to him this moment about those things.
Before we launch into that, we'll have a hearing outside of the jury--outside the presence of the jury to see where we're going on that.
Mr. Rubin talked about the weather conditions to which the gloves were subjected. Mr. MacDonell is supposed to talk about what happened to the gloves as a result of blood, and that's two different things.
He did the experiment on the glove that Mr. Rubin provided, which are the Aris Isotoner lights, the same exact pair of gloves that Mr. Darden used for his second glove demonstration with new gloves.
I don't think we ever saw snow or sleet, but did see a lot of rain.
I've also had Professor MacDonell listen to Mr. Bodziak's testimony, and he may also be rebutting certain things he just heard Mr. Bodziak say this morning.