📄 Direct examination of Herbert MacDonell (part 3) — Monday, September 18, 1995
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▲ Day 156 of 167

Direct examination of Herbert MacDonell (part 3)

Witness: Prof. Herbert MacDonell
Examiner: Peter Neufeld
Called by: Defense • Date: Monday, September 18, 1995 • Utterances: 122
Defense expert Herbert MacDonell testified about two things: weather conditions on the night of the murders (no precipitation, no dew, humidity around 72-81%) and his glove shrinkage experiment. MacDonell soaked gloves in blood, dried them, and measured them before and after — finding negligible shrinkage from the blood itself. He then demonstrated that the evidence gloves are approximately 10% smaller than new Aris Light XL gloves, which he characterized as 'incredible shrinkage,' suggesting the gloves could not fit OJ Simpson.
1 (The following proceedings were held in open court:)
2 MR. NEUFELD:

Professor MacDonell, does the official U.S. weather service report that you have in front of you state what the relative humidity was at each of those different hourly readings?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes, it does.

3 MR. NEUFELD:

And what was the relative humidity range from 10:50 in the evening of June 12th until approximately 9:50 in the morning on June 13th?

PROF. MACDONELL: The total range was 72.7 to 81 percent. But I should point out, this doesn't mean it starts at the low value and goes to the high value any more than the temperature. That was the maximum range. It doesn't mean the lowest temperature was the first reading. So it ranged in those--between those figures I've given.

4 MR. NEUFELD:

And, sir, what was the humidity that you set in your drying chamber?

PROF. MACDONELL: I set the humidity--you don't set it. You use a system of chemicals to establish a constant humidity by which hydrometers are calibrated, and the nearest mixture that I could produce was 85 percent, which was slightly higher than the percent listed, but not from what I was first informed, which was in error. It was 85 percent.

5 MR. NEUFELD:

And, sir, on the official U.S. weather service report, is there a column which indicates whether or not there was any precipitation taken during each of those hours?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes.

6 MR. NEUFELD:

And, sir, at any time from 10:50 in the evening on June 12th through 9:50 in the morning on June 13th, was there any recorded precipitation?

PROF. MACDONELL: There's many columns here. I've got to find the right one. Pardon me. There was none. Zero.

7 MR. NEUFELD:

And, sir, during that same period of 10:50 P.M. to 9:50 A.M., was there any dew on the ground?

PROF. MACDONELL: No. The dew point never got within six degrees--the temperature never got within 60 degrees of dew point, which is the point where you would see condensation or dew moisture.

8 MR. NEUFELD:

And, sir, is there a column in the official weather service reports to indicate the presence of any obstruction, any visual obstruction such as fog or haze?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes.

9 MR. NEUFELD:

And do the reports indicate whether there was any ground fog at all that would obstruct one's view from 10:50 in the evening on June 12th to 9:20 in the morning on June 13th?

10 MS. CLARK:

Objection. That's irrelevant, beyond the scope, your Honor, beyond the scope of his expertise.

11 THE COURT:

Sustained.

12 MR. NEUFELD:

Do the reports indicate, sir, what the visibility level was for each--

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes.

13 MR. NEUFELD:

--hour from 10:50 in the evening to 9:50 the following morning?

14 MS. CLARK:

Objection, your Honor. Brentwood or lax?

15 THE COURT:

Sustained. It's not relevant, lax.

16 MR. NEUFELD:

Professor MacDonell, are you aware of the fact that the only official weather service readings throughout the entire night for the Los Angeles vicinity are those at lax?

17 PROF. MACDONELL:

No, I wasn't aware of that. I wouldn't be aware of it in New York.

18 MR. NEUFELD:

Is there any indication at all in those official weather service reports there was any fog that could create any moisture on the ground on the night of June 12th and the morning hours of June 13?

19 MS. CLARK:

Objection.

20 THE COURT:

Sustained. I think we have the basics. We have temperature and humidity. So let's move on.

21 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. Now, did you examine--visually examine the glove that was collected at Rockingham?

22 PROF. MACDONELL:

Yes.

23 MR. NEUFELD:

And did you have an opportunity to see the places where there is dry blood on the palm side of the glove and the backside of the glove?

PROF. MACDONELL: Well, there's stains which has been testified to as being blood. I did not test them, but there's certainly staining consistent with what bloodstains look like.

24 MR. NEUFELD:

And, sir, I now show you what is People's exhibit 68-D.

25 MS. CLARK:

Objection. This is beyond the scope as well.

26 THE COURT:

Overruled.

27 MR. NEUFELD:

Professor MacDonell, here's a picture that was taken by the police of the glove at Rockingham, a close-up in the area where it was collected. Do you see that picture?

28 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Xerox copy, your Honor, just so the record is clear.

29 THE COURT:

All right.

30 MR. NEUFELD:

Xerox copy.

31 THE COURT:

No. Is this a Xerox?

32 MR. NEUFELD:

Photo Xerox because the original photograph is mounted on the board that is in the basement, your Honor.

33 THE COURT:

All right. Thank you. Proceed.

34 MR. NEUFELD:

And, sir, based on your expertise in the area of bloodstains and bloodstain analysis, if this glove had been dropped at that location within 10 or 15 minutes after the wet blood was smeared on it, would you expect to see blood on the leaves or on the pavement that the glove is resting on?

35 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Speculation, no foundation.

36 THE COURT:

Sustained. Sustained.

37 MR. NEUFELD:

Sir, did you actually see the location of the bloodstains on the glove that was found at Rockingham?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes, I do.

38 MR. NEUFELD:

And from looking at this photograph, would those areas that have bloodstains be in contact with the pavement and leaves directly beneath it?

39 MS. CLARK:

Objection. No personal knowledge, no foundation.

40 THE COURT:

Sustained. We're here talking about shrinkage, counsel. That's a scope issue.

41 MR. NEUFELD:

Sir, are you aware of the fact that the criminalist in this case did not offer any testimony of seeing bloodstains either on pavement--

42 THE COURT:

Sustained. Counsel, the scope is shrinkage. Move on.

43 MR. NEUFELD:

Now, you said that there came a time when the gloves were dry that you did this experiment on; is that right?

PROF. MACDONELL: That's correct.

44 MR. NEUFELD:

And after they were dry, what did you then do with the two gloves?

PROF. MACDONELL: I copied them on the copy machine that I'd used before when I copied them prior to the experiment, same copy machine.

45 MR. NEUFELD:

And did you then compare the Xerox copy of the gloves taken before you did the experiment with the transparency Xerox of the gloves after they had dried, having had all of this blood smeared on them?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes, I did.

46 MR. NEUFELD:

And what, if any, shrinkage did you observe as a result of your experiment on both the left glove and the right glove?

PROF. MACDONELL: I would have to say it's negligible. They're certainly not congruent because they were done at different times, but I put them down as fairly as possible. That is to say, without any lateral teasing around to stretch them one way or another. Just laid them flat, did the experiment, when they're dried, laid them flat again, and they are not congruent and that is, they're not the same copy. But when you place one over the other and move it around slightly, I could detect no shrinkage or no linear or vertical or horizontal shrinkage at all or change in shift.

47 MR. NEUFELD:

And, sir, do you have the Xeroxes and the transparencies that you made when you conducted this experiment with you today?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes, I do.

48 MR. NEUFELD:

Could you take them out, sir? Let's start with the left glove first if you have that handy or the right glove, whichever is easiest for you.

49 THE COURT:

All right. You've given a copy of these to counsel?

50 MR. NEUFELD:

Yes.

51 MR. NEUFELD:

Which glove do you have out?

PROF. MACDONELL: I don't have either glove, but I've got a transparent, a copy of one of the left gloves.

52 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. Let's start with the left glove. Now, we'll have to mark these for identification.

53 MS. CLARK:

Your Honor, we've never seen these. May I?

54 MR. NEUFELD:

Your Honor, that's not true. They were given to the People in discovery.

55 MS. CLARK:

No. We got Xeroxes.

56 THE COURT:

Let her see the originals.

57 MR. NEUFELD:

These are Xeroxes.

PROF. MACDONELL: That's a Xerox.

58 MS. CLARK:

No. The transparency held by Mr. MacDonell we've never seen.

59 THE COURT:

Let counsel--

60 MR. NEUFELD:

Counsel did receive that as a Xerox as well.

61 THE COURT:

Let her see the original, please.

62 MR. NEUFELD:

Certainly.

63 (Brief pause.)
64 MR. NEUFELD:

Why don't you give the red one. Red one. Left too? Just the left glove?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yeah, that's the left glove.

65 MR. NEUFELD:

Is that a hundred percent?

66 MS. CLARK:

Can I see the others?

67 (Brief pause.)
68 MS. CLARK:

Are these all the ones you are going to use?

69 MR. NEUFELD:

I'm going to use the other one as well.

70 MS. CLARK:

Can I see those?

71 MR. NEUFELD:

You'll have to bring me those back first because I don't want to mix up the left hand and the right hand.

72 MS. CLARK:

Your Honor, can we approach?

73 THE COURT:

Without the court reporter.

74 (A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)
75 (The following proceedings were held in open court:)
76 MR. NEUFELD:

I'm not sure which hand is which.

77 THE COURT:

All right. Thank you, counsel. Don't mix those up, Mr. Neufeld. He noticed it. Mr. Neufeld.

78 MR. NEUFELD:

Fine. Let's begin with the left hand. You have in front of you three different items.

79 MR. NEUFELD:

And I guess next in order is?

80 THE COURT:

This would be 1379.

81 MR. NEUFELD:

Let's make this 1379-A, B and C and then make the other hand 1380 if that's all right.

82 THE COURT:

It sounds good to me.

(Deft's 1379-A and B and 1380 for id =

Xerox copies of gloves)

83 MR. NEUFELD:

Professor MacDonell, could you please explain to the jury what 1379-A, B and C are?

84 THE COURT:

Do you want to mark them A, B and C, make the--which one do you want as the--

85 MR. NEUFELD:

A will be the four-shot, the predrying--I'm sorry--the pre-shrinkage experiment, Xerox of the glove. The brown transparency can be--after the gloves are dried will be B.

PROF. MACDONELL: That's not after. That's before. There are two before and one after for clarification.

86 MR. NEUFELD:

All right. Well--okay. You mean, there's one transparency and one on white that's before?

PROF. MACDONELL: Shall I explain this?

87 MR. NEUFELD:

Please do.

PROF. MACDONELL: The one on paper is before. "Lb" stands for "Left glove before experiment." I then made a left glove before transparency because I felt by having "Left after" in red was perhaps not easy to hold up to a light. So I thought I'd make it what I call "Jury friendly" and have them both transparencies. That's all. So my label "1" is before the experiment. My label "Upper left 2" is the same thing. It's the same identical picture, and then "3" is after in red. And you can compare 3 to 1 or 2, whichever seems to be the easiest for your eyesight.

88 MR. NEUFELD:

Then with the court's permission, perhaps it would be easier not to introduce at all the one on white paper and simply introduce the two transparencies. The brown one will be transparency of the condition of the glove prior to the shrinkage experiment and the red transparency will reflect the condition of the glove after the shrinkage experiment.

89 THE COURT:

Not wanting to tell you how to try your case, but--

90 MR. NEUFELD:

I'm willing to defer.

91 THE COURT:

--my personal examination of the one on the paper with the red, that it's easier to make the overlay comparison. But you're the lawyer.

92 MR. NEUFELD:

All right. At this point, I--really to move this along--do it that way then and simply introduce--the one on the paper then will be a and the red overlay will be B and we will not introduce the other transparency.

93 THE COURT:

Fine.

94 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. And--so, Professor MacDonell, did you do the same thing for the right glove?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes, I did.

95 MR. NEUFELD:

And could you please show the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what it appears to be, both the before photocopy and the post-shrinkage experiment transparency?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes. In this instance, my no. 7 is the right glove before which is on paper. It's not a transparency. The red transparency is the right glove after. And again, they are not congruent because they're not exactly the same. They were done hours and hours apart.

96 MR. NEUFELD:

But was the one in red done only after the gloves were dry?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes. It says "RA," that's right after, and the other one says "RB," that's right before.

97 MR. NEUFELD:

Your Honor, at this time, I would like to--and by the way, I think the second set should be marked Defendant's 1380-A and B with a being--unfortunately, a is going to be before and B is after.

98 (Deft's 1380 remarked 1380-A and B for id = Xerox copies of glove experiment)
99 MR. NEUFELD:

And at this time, with the court's permission, I would like to be able to pass them to the jury.

100 THE COURT:

Yes. Would you hand the left glove to juror no. 1 and the right glove to juror no. 7.

101 (Defendant's exhibits 1379 and 1380 were examined by the jurors.)
102 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Neufeld, would you collect those items, 1379 and 1380, from Deputy Bashmakian, please. All right. The record should reflect the jurors have had the opportunity to review both 1379 and 1380. Mr. Neufeld.

103 MR. NEUFELD:

Yes. And remember when I asked you at the very beginning of your testimony, professor, whether or not you recall Mr. Rubin's testimony that the evidence gloves that he examined were 15 percent smaller than the--than new Aris light extra large gloves? Do you recall that?

104 MS. CLARK:

Objection. That misstates the testimony.

105 THE COURT:

Overruled.

106 MR. NEUFELD:

15 percent, page--

PROF. MACDONELL: My recollection was 10 to 15.

107 MS. CLARK:

Thanks.

PROF. MACDONELL: And on that basis, I prepared a way to show both 10 and 15 percent or 85 or 90 percent of the original.

KEY QUOTE
108 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. Did you prepare transparencies which reflect these gloves if they were 10 percent smaller and 15 percent smaller than they are in the new condition?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes.

109 MR. NEUFELD:

And how did you do that, sir?

PROF. MACDONELL: I prepared yet another master of the left glove by putting a ruler next to it and then using a variable enlargement reducing copier, not my own. I do not have one of that nature yet. I'm expecting one shortly. I set it at 90 percent and simply made, again, a red transparency that I could first check the ruler, which is quite faint, and see that it is exactly 90 percent. In other words, 100 centimeters on the smaller one only is 90--I'm sorry. 100 millimeters is only 90 millimeters on the original, and so it is a right exactly 90 percent as I read it. And that was just to show the reduction by placing the red transparency over the original to see how much smaller it would be, and that is--that is the figure I would give to the evidence gloves because I've examined them. They're--the gloves on my pictures are 10 inches. The extra gloves I have--and 90 percent of that is nine inches and the evidence gloves are nine inches. So I think it's 90 percent and not 85. But I also have prepared the 85 which is, of course, 15 percent reduction. And I would say simply that it goes from a man's size to a lady's size. It's very much smaller. But either way, it's incredible shrinkage.

110 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. Can you--is it possible--the way you have done the transparencies on the photocopying machine, is it possible for the jurors to actually compare what the Aris light extra large glove looked like before it was--had blood put on it in this case and your experiment and what gloves that are 10 percent smaller would look like and what gloves that are 15 percent smaller would look like?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes, I'm sure they can. They just did it before. I watched them.

111 MR. NEUFELD:

All right.

PROF. MACDONELL: So this is 90 percent and this is 85 (Indicating).

112 MR. NEUFELD:

Your Honor, I would ask that the two reduced versions, the 10 percent, 15 percent be marked 1381-A and B and for--

113 MR. NEUFELD:

Is that for the left hand that you have first?

PROF. MACDONELL: Yes.

114 MR. NEUFELD:

Your Honor, I think for the purpose of this experiment, one hand should be adequate. So we'll do it just for the left hand. And I would ask, your Honor, at this time to be able to pass that around to the jurors as well.

(Deft's 1381-A and B for id = Xerox

Copies of glove experiment)

115 THE COURT:

Have you shown those to Miss Clark?

116 MR. NEUFELD:

Oh, I'm sorry.

117 (Brief pause.)
118 MR. NEUFELD:

With the court's permission. Which juror; 1?

119 THE COURT:

Juror no. 1.

120 (Defendant's exhibits 1381-A and B were examined by the jury.)
121 MR. NEUFELD:

Your Honor, can we have a sidebar while they're doing this?

122 THE COURT:

Miss Moxham.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Prof. Herbert MacDonell
I could detect no shrinkage or no linear or vertical or horizontal shrinkage at all or change in shift.
Core finding of his experiment — blood and moisture did not cause the gloves to shrink, undermining any prosecution argument that the gloves shrank after the crime.
Prof. Herbert MacDonell
The gloves on my pictures are 10 inches. The extra gloves I have--and 90 percent of that is nine inches and the evidence gloves are nine inches. So I think it's 90 percent and not 85. But I also have prepared the 85 which is, of course, 15 percent reduction. And I would say simply that it goes from a man's size to a lady's size. It's very much smaller. But either way, it's incredible shrinkage.
The punchline of his testimony — the evidence gloves are dramatically smaller than a new XL pair, supporting the defense's argument that the gloves could not have fit Simpson.
Prof. Herbert MacDonell
I thought I'd make it what I call 'Jury friendly' and have them both transparencies.
Reveals MacDonell's deliberate effort to present his findings accessibly to jurors — an experienced expert witness managing his own presentation.
Marcia Clark
Thanks.
Clark's dry one-word response after MacDonell corrected Neufeld's misstatement of '15 percent' to '10 to 15' — a small courtroom moment where the prosecution benefited from the defense's own witness.

Evidence (5)

People's 68-D
Police photograph (Xerox copy) of the Rockingham glove at the location where it was collected
introduced over objection, used to ask about bloodstain positions relative to pavement
Defendant's 1379-A and B
Xerox copies of left glove before and after MacDonell's blood-soaking shrinkage experiment
introduced and passed to jurors for comparison
Defendant's 1380-A and B
Xerox copies of right glove before and after shrinkage experiment
introduced and passed to jurors
Defendant's 1381-A and B
Transparencies of left glove reduced to 90% and 85% of original size, representing 10% and 15% shrinkage
introduced and passed to jurors to visualize how much smaller the evidence gloves are than new XL gloves
Informal
Official U.S. Weather Service report for LAX covering 10:50 PM June 12 through 9:50 AM June 13, 1994
discussed — showed no precipitation, no dew, humidity range of 72.7–81%

Notable Exchanges (3)

Peter NeufeldLance A. Ito
Judge repeatedly sustained Clark's objections keeping MacDonell's testimony narrowly confined to glove shrinkage, cutting off questions about fog visibility, blood transfer to pavement, and the criminalist's observations. At one point Ito sustained before Clark even finished objecting.
procedural, restrictive
Peter NeufeldLance A. Ito
Neufeld got confused about which glove transparency was which (left vs. right), prompting the judge to intervene: 'Don't mix those up, Mr. Neufeld. He noticed it.' The judge also offered his own opinion that the paper-and-overlay comparison was easier to read than two transparencies.
mildly comic, collaborative
Peter NeufeldProf. Herbert MacDonell
Neufeld mischaracterized Rubin's prior testimony as stating 15% shrinkage; MacDonell corrected him to '10 to 15,' prompting Clark's sardonic 'Thanks.'
awkward, inadvertently helpful to prosecution

Light Moments (3)

Prof. Herbert MacDonell
MacDonell, asked whether jurors could compare the transparencies, replied: 'Yes, I'm sure they can. They just did it before. I watched them.' — deadpan and self-assured.
Lance A. Ito
Judge Ito offered his personal aesthetic opinion on which exhibit format was clearer, then caught himself: 'Not wanting to tell you how to try your case, but--'
Marcia Clark
Clark's single-word 'Thanks.' after MacDonell corrected Neufeld's misstatement about the percentage of shrinkage.

Witness Demeanor

(Brief pause.) — during exhibit handling confusion
(A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)
(Defendant's exhibits 1379 and 1380 were examined by the jurors.)
(Defendant's exhibits 1381-A and B were examined by the jury.)

Objections

9 objections (7 sustained, 2 overruled)
Proceeding 7729 • 122 utterances • Defense witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
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📂 SEP 18, 1995 📄 Direct examination of Herbert
SEP 18, 1995 KRT DvH TD