📄 Trial planning — Friday, September 1, 1995
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TRIAL
▲ Day 146 of 167

Trial planning

Date: Friday, September 1, 1995 • Utterances: 85
A scheduling dispute erupted when the defense tried to substitute witness Natalie Singer for the previously-agreed-upon Mr. Hodge. After Judge Ito pushed back, Cochran consulted with OJ Simpson off the record and proposed a revised order starting Tuesday with Kathleen Bell, then Andrea Terry, McKinny, Singer, Hodge, and Dr. Goulston — driven by Simpson's insistence that the jury not be denied testimony about witnesses promised in opening statements. The prosecution complained bitterly about delays and a six-day jury wait, but the judge ultimately deferred to the defense's tactical discretion.
1 THE COURT:

All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. Are we ready to proceed?

2 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes, we are.

3 THE COURT:

All right. Do you have Mr. Hodge available?

4 MR. BAILEY:

We're ready with Miss Singer, not Mr. Hodge.

5 THE COURT:

I thought we talked about Mr. Hodge.

6 MR. BAILEY:

I understand. The problem with Mr. Hodge, we'd rather not start him today and finish him Monday. Miss Singer, we might be able to finish today with a couple of extra minutes. I sent word back to the court that we wanted to call Miss Singer.

7 THE COURT:

No. Our discussion revolved around Mr. Hodge. Call Mr. Hodge.

8 MR. BAILEY:

You're ordering me to call Mr. Hodge?

9 THE COURT:

No. I'm saying that's the witness we just finished discussing that I've indicated I'm going to direct that the Prosecution go forward with this witness since they've had adequate time. We did not discuss Miss Singer.

10 MR. BAILEY:

Well, I'm sorry. I discussed both this morning. They had the same amount of time for both. They never lifted a finger to try and talk to him. That's a lawyer's obligation. He can't come in here and say well, "Judge, I didn't think they'd call her." She's been on the witness list. Why does the court say call Hodge--

11 THE COURT:

No. Mr. Bailey, we just finished discussing Mr. Hodge. I just finished looking at the discovery notes regarding Mr. Hodge. I didn't contemplate anything with regards to Miss Singer. You want to call Miss Singer, you'll do it Tuesday.

12 MR. BAILEY:

Fine.

13 THE COURT:

After I've had the opportunity to look at this and hear their objections. We just finished--

14 MR. BAILEY:

Fine. We'll call her Tuesday.

15 MR. COCHRAN:

May I ask one last question, your Honor? Mr. Hodge is my witness. I'm ready to proceed. The question I want--and Mr. Simpson--directed to Mr. Simpson--if I call Mr. Hodge right now, is the court going to entertain a motion and grant a motion of 352 on Kathleen Bell and Andrea Terry and Natalie Singer?

16 THE COURT:

I don't know.

17 MR. COCHRAN:

That's the question he asked me, and I think I have a right to bring that out to the court.

18 THE COURT:

I don't know. It depends on the nature of the testimony, counsel. At some point in time, this is going to become cumulative.

19 MR. COCHRAN:

We're fully aware of that, your Honor, and we are aware of that. But as Mr. Simpson's wants--he would like to know that before he proceeds and calls Hodge now, because obviously, we've always thought, based upon the People introducing the letter, that Kathleen Bell and Andrea Terry would be called and Fuhrman's testimony.

20 THE COURT:

Well, counsel, you have to make a tactical decision based upon your legal knowledge and experience. You have to rely upon Mr. Bailey's argument perhaps that there are reasons independent to call Bell and perhaps Terry. If you recollect, there was also testimony he had no idea who these people were and denied ever having talked to them.

21 MR. COCHRAN:

I recall that.

22 THE COURT:

I don't know. But I don't know. I can't make these judgments until I hear what the testimony is. It's very difficult for me to define these things.

23 MR. COCHRAN:

No. I understand that, and this has come up because your Honor did mention it to us.

24 THE COURT:

I mentioned it because they made the objection.

25 MR. COCHRAN:

I understand, your Honor. May I have just a second?

26 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel and the Defendant.)
27 MR. COCHRAN:

May I propose something to the court? I--after talking with Mr. Simpson and my cocounsel, we propose that we start Tuesday with Bell and then Singer, and then we'll come back to Hodge and with Bell and Terry and then Singer. That way we don't lose anything. Mr. Simpson is adamant that the jury's been told about Bell and about Terry and he does not want to lose that chance. Your Honor can't prejudge it, you won't tell us at this point. So he doesn't want to lose that thing. And I can't tell him what your ruling is going to be. I understand it's a tactical decision and I think tactically, that's what I've got to advise him, that he wants to start with Bell first then. They cannot be here. She lives in another state. She'll be here Tuesday morning.

28 THE COURT:

Mr. Darden, any comment on that?

29 MR. DARDEN:

Your Honor, the delays that we have endured the past couple of days, these are delays brought about by the Defense.

30 THE COURT:

Well, no. Part of the delay is, I've got to sit and think about these things.

31 MR. DARDEN:

Well, the other part of the delay is, they didn't get the stuff to you last week when they were supposed to.

32 THE COURT:

Let's not nit-pick over that.

33 MR. DARDEN:

Well, my point is simply this. We're going to have a six-day delay now. We're going to have the jury sit--wait at this hotel for six days.

34 THE COURT:

They'll be doing things.

35 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Mr. Hodge is here. Okay. He is here ready to testify--

36 THE COURT:

Well, it's their case. It's their case. They get to make their decision.

37 MR. DARDEN:

Well, the court ought to order them to call him now or preclude him, Judge.

38 THE COURT:

No. That's not the way it works. I wish it worked that way, but it doesn't.

39 MR. DARDEN:

Well, surely the way it doesn't work is that they just get to delay these proceedings for days and days on end until they're ready to call a witness.

40 THE COURT:

No. I understand their tactical reason for wanting to call Bell first because that--Kathleen Bell was discussed in the opening statement, that witness has been promised by the Defense and there's a particularly unique fact situation with her that they don't want to lose and they don't want to risk that.

41 MR. DARDEN:

There's also 15 lawyers on the Defense and I'm sure somebody thought of this before, Judge.

KEY QUOTE
42 THE COURT:

They probably did.

43 MR. DARDEN:

What about Blasini, Gobern, Menzione and the other 20 or so witness names they throw through the air from time to time? What about those people?

44 THE COURT:

Well, the commitment from the Defense is, we're going to start with Bell and Terry. Where do we go after Bell and Terry?

45 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, we'll do Bell, Terry, probably we'll start with McKinny. By that time--

46 THE COURT:

Terry and McKinny.

47 MR. COCHRAN:

We'll deal with the tapes and we'll deal with Singer. And we'll deal with--

48 THE COURT:

Hodge.

49 MR. COCHRAN:

--Mr. Hodge. And we have Vettraino and we have the psychologist, Mr. Goulston.

50 MS. CLARK:

Judge, we're going to need a 402 on that.

51 THE COURT:

On the psychologist?

52 MS. CLARK:

Well, Dr. Goulston's never spoken to Detective Fuhrman or anybody else.

53 THE COURT:

We'll take up that matter--

54 MR. COCHRAN:

Those are the witnesses we are talking about.

55 MS. CLARK:

I just want to alert the Defense that there's going to be an end to these games. At some point, the court's going to hear what's going on.

56 MR. COCHRAN:

Can we hear from one lawyer per side, your Honor?

57 THE COURT:

That's a different issue, Dr.--what's his name?

58 MS. CLARK:

Goulston.

59 THE COURT:

Goulston. My apologies to the doctor.

60 MS. CLARK:

So we're clear, your Honor, I just want to make sure, can we get a final list from the Defense so we know--Bell, Terry--

61 THE COURT:

That's what you just got.

62 MS. CLARK:

Bell, Terry, McKinny, Singer, Hodge and Dr. Goulston and that's it?

63 THE COURT:

I would imagine--

64 MR. COCHRAN:

There's Mr. Menzione.

65 THE COURT:

Menzione.

66 MR. COCHRAN:

We're going to be calling Fuhrman, Menzione.

67 MS. CLARK:

What about Gobern, Menzione, Rivas Matsuda?

68 MR. DARDEN:

They put the Defendant on the witness stand. We can handle him today. We're ready for that.

KEY QUOTE
69 MS. CLARK:

He's here.

70 MR. DARDEN:

We're ready for that.

71 THE COURT:

Nice try.

72 MS. CLARK:

May I inquire, your Honor, ask the court to inquire about Blasini, Gobern, Menzione, Rivas, Matsuda? We have all these names floating around and--

73 THE COURT:

Well, you've been given half a dozen names that are interesting witnesses. So be ready.

74 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, the problem is, because of all their discovery violations, Rokahr--

75 THE COURT:

Wait. Wait. Wait. Deputy Magnera--I'm sorry. Deputy Jex, jurors, please.

76 MS. CLARK:

Your Honor, these are brief witnesses. They're not going to take up--

77 THE COURT:

They're not here.

78 MS. CLARK:

No. I realize. What I'm saying is that we need more than this. This won't take up a morning and we are entitled to three days I believe of witnesses. This is not it.

79 THE COURT:

You think Bell's going to be a short witness?

80 MS. CLARK:

Very.

81 THE COURT:

Okay.

82 MS. CLARK:

So I'd ask the court to inquire.

83 MR. COCHRAN:

So there's no mistake about it--

84 MS. CLARK:

Wait. Your Honor, I was addressing the court. I asked that the court inquire please of the Defense as to what the remainder of their witnesses will be because the witnesses they have listed will not consume the morning.

85 MR. COCHRAN:

We'll decide over the weekend. I've told her and she should have Mr. Simpson's name after that if they want him so badly.

KEY QUOTE

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Johnnie Cochran
Mr. Simpson is adamant that the jury's been told about Bell and about Terry and he does not want to lose that chance.
Reveals that OJ Simpson was actively directing trial strategy, particularly around protecting promised Fuhrman-related witnesses.
Christopher Darden
They put the Defendant on the witness stand. We can handle him today. We're ready for that.
A provocative move by Darden to pressure the defense — and force Simpson to either testify or visibly refuse.
Lance A. Ito
Nice try.
Ito's dry dismissal of Darden's gambit to get Simpson on the stand — one of the few moments of levity.
Johnnie Cochran
We'll decide over the weekend. I've told her and she should have Mr. Simpson's name after that if they want him so badly.
Cochran's parting shot — daring the prosecution while making clear the witness list wasn't settled.
Christopher Darden
There's also 15 lawyers on the Defense and I'm sure somebody thought of this before, Judge.
Darden's frustration with perceived defense gamesmanship, implying the scheduling chaos was deliberate.

Evidence (2)

Informal
The letter introduced by the People — referenced as the basis for calling Kathleen Bell and Andrea Terry as witnesses
discussed
Informal
McKinny tapes — referenced by Cochran as part of upcoming witness sequencing
discussed

Notable Exchanges (4)

F. Lee BaileyLance A. Ito
Bailey tried to swap Singer for the court-approved Hodge; Ito refused and held the line on the agreed witness, prompting Bailey to ask pointedly 'You're ordering me to call Mr. Hodge?'
tense
Johnnie CochranLance A. Ito
Cochran pressed the judge to preview his 352 ruling on Bell, Terry, and Singer before calling Hodge — the judge declined, saying he couldn't prejudge testimony he hadn't heard.
strategic
Christopher DardenLance A. Ito
Darden pushed the court to either order Hodge called immediately or preclude him entirely; Ito declined, saying 'That's not the way it works.'
frustrated
Christopher DardenMarcia ClarkJohnnie Cochran
Darden and Clark suggested the defense put OJ Simpson on the stand that day; Cochran ended the session by throwing it back at them, suggesting Simpson's name be added to the witness list.
provocative

Light Moments (2)

Lance A. Ito
Darden suggested the court call OJ Simpson to testify that day; Ito responded with 'Nice try.'
Lance A. Ito
Ito apologized to Dr. Goulston — who wasn't present — after mispronouncing his name: 'My apologies to the doctor.'

Witness Demeanor

(Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel and the Defendant.)

Objections

None recorded
Proceeding 7474 • 85 utterances
Criminal Trial
Department 103
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📂 SEP 1, 1995 📄 Trial planning
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