Redirect examination of Gregory Matheson (part 4)

📄 Redirect examination of Gregory Matheson (part 4) — Friday, May 5, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAY\5\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-GREGOR.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 68 of 167

◀ Recross-examination of Gregory Matheson Recross-examination of Gregory Matheson (part 2) ▶

Witness: Gregory Matheson
Examiner: Hank Goldberg
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Friday, May 5, 1995 • Utterances: 133

Goldberg uses further redirect to rehabilitate Matheson's credibility by highlighting his professional ethics obligations and past presidency of the California Association of Criminalists. The examination quickly pivots back to the EAP blood-typing issue, with Matheson confirming that the Yeshion and Grunbaum articles did not undermine his BA-to-B degradation analysis, and that his preconception that Nicole's blood should type as BA did not influence his inconclusive result. The session closes with brief housekeeping questions about the lab's card key system, evidence tracking, and whether detectives had ever been trained in swatch collection.

# 1 MR. GOLDBERG:

Thank you.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDBERG

# 2 MR. GOLDBERG:

Mr. Matheson, you are, as a criminalist, bound by a code of ethics; is that correct?

# 3 MR. MATHESON:

I am bound of one of the organizations that I belong to and personally, yes.

# 4 MR. GOLDBERG:

And does that code of ethics also have provision dealing with presenting inconclusive results in court?

# 5 MR. MATHESON:

As far as they would not be B?

# 6 MR. GOLDBERG:

No. The circumstances under which you are allowed to present those results. I thought we looked at that yesterday, didn't we?

# 7 MR. MATHESON:

I'd have to review and find out what the provision is.

# 8 MR. GOLDBERG:

Can you take a look and see if--

# 9 MR. GOLDBERG:

May I approach?

# 10 THE COURT:

Please. See if we can speed this up just a little.

# 11 (Brief pause.)

# 12 MR. GOLDBERG:

Okay. Looking at paragraph 2-E, sir, can you read that for us out loud?

# 13 MR. MATHESON:

It reads: "Where test results are inconclusive or indefinite, any conclusion drawn shall be fully explained."

KEY QUOTE

# 14 MR. GOLDBERG:

And when we were talking about the inconclusive results in this case in terms of the EAP issue, did you explain at exhaustive length how you were considering and why you were considering those results?

# 15 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, I believe so.

# 16 MR. GOLDBERG:

Did you feel that it was necessary to do so?

# 17 MR. MATHESON:

Yes.

# 18 MR. GOLDBERG:

Why, even at the risk of perhaps boring and presenting maybe marginally relevant explanations at the length to which you went to explain them?

# 19 MR. MATHESON:

Well, they needed greater explanation than the conclusive results because they are inconclusive. A conclusive result is a final statement. Inconclusion requires that some sort of explanation be made.

# 20 MR. GOLDBERG:

And at all times throughout your involvement in this case, have you scrupulously followed the ethical standards and guidelines that you are bound to follow as a criminalist?

# 21 MR. MATHESON:

I always follow them to the best of my ability.

# 22 MR. GOLDBERG:

Sir, do you consider your participation in the California association of criminalists to be important?

# 23 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, I do.

# 24 MR. GOLDBERG:

And do you consider your job as a criminalist to be simply a 9:00 to 5:00 type job so to speak or does it mean more than that to you?

# 25 MR. MATHESON:

No. It means a lot more. It's a profession. That's why I'm involved in the associations and the profession as a whole.

# 26 MR. GOLDBERG:

And this code of ethics comes from the California association of criminalists?

# 27 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, it does.

# 28 MR. GOLDBERG:

And you're one of the former past presidents of that organization; is that correct?

# 29 MR. MATHESON:

That's correct.

# 30 MR. GOLDBERG:

And, sir, can you tell us what the little lapel pin on your lapel represents?

# 31 MR. MATHESON:

That--it's a pin of the California association of criminalists.

# 32 MR. GOLDBERG:

Okay. And have you ever at any time ever tried to interpret or misinterpret a result in this case or any of your testimony in this case to favor the Defense?

# 33 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Argumentative.

# 34 THE COURT:

Sustained. Rephrase the question.

# 35 MR. GOLDBERG:

Have you ever tried to present any testimony in this case in such a way as to favor one side or the other?

# 36 MR. MATHESON:

No, I have not.

# 37 MR. GOLDBERG:

And since you have been testifying, has any member of the California association of criminalists called you and criticized anything that you've said?

# 38 MR. BLASIER:

Objection.

# 39 THE COURT:

Irrelevant.

# 40 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, Mr. Matheson, I'd like to ask you a few other questions quickly about the EAP issue. I know we've gone into it in exhaustive length, but we'll make it very rapid. As to the Yeshion article that you were asked about, was that an article that studied in the sense of doing experiments on the issue of EAP degradation from BA to B?

# 41 MR. MATHESON:

No, it is not.

# 42 MR. GOLDBERG:

Okay. What type of EAP degradation issues was Yeshion dealing with?

# 43 MR. MATHESON:

It was a technical note about a B to a CB.

# 44 MR. GOLDBERG:

Okay. And so there are some other degradation problems that deal with EAP that we haven't really discussed at length in this case; is that correct?

# 45 MR. MATHESON:

That's correct.

# 46 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Leading.

# 47 THE COURT:

Overruled, but we've covered this once already.

# 48 MR. GOLDBERG:

And, Mr. Matheson, scientifically speaking, does this article, the Yeshion article provide any new scientific information in terms of a study on the BA to B phenomenon?

# 49 MR. MATHESON:

No, it does not.

# 50 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, with respect to the Grunbaum study that we talked about, was there a sample in that study that was in fact mistyped as a B question mark that was a BA?

# 51 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, there was.

# 52 MR. GOLDBERG:

And did Mr. Grinbaum state that in those cases, distinct band patterns were present in the cases of the mistypes that occurred in his study?

# 53 MR. MATHESON:

I believe so, yes.

# 54 MR. GOLDBERG:

And what does that mean?

# 55 MR. MATHESON:

Well, I think the use of the term "patterns" rather than "pattern" indicates more than one band.

# 56 MR. GOLDBERG:

And you have stated that in your professional career, the BA to B phenomenon is something that you have personally seen where there are both B bands present?

# 57 MR. MATHESON:

Yes.

# 58 MR. GOLDBERG:

And that includes a number of instances in this case; is that correct?

# 59 MR. MATHESON:

Related to this case or other cases?

# 60 MR. GOLDBERG:

Well, there are a couple instances in this case, more than one where you believe it happened here?

# 61 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. No foundation.

# 62 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 63 MR. MATHESON:

Yes.

# 64 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, you were asked about preconceived notions and the effect that that has on a scientist's judgment. When you were typing 42, the pool of blood of Nicole Simpson, had you previously been informed prior to when you did your work by Mr. Fung that that was collected as a sample of Nicole Brown's blood?

# 65 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Calls for hearsay.

# 66 MR. GOLDBERG:

Coming in for his state of mind on preconceptions.

# 67 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 68 MR. MATHESON:

It was my understanding that that's what that sample was.

# 69 MR. GOLDBERG:

And that's what you believed when you were actually doing the testing?

# 70 MR. MATHESON:

Yes.

# 71 MR. GOLDBERG:

So when you were actually doing the testing, did you believe that the results should be a BA?

# 72 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Argumentative, asked and answered.

# 73 THE COURT:

It's leading.

# 74 MR. GOLDBERG:

What did you believe the results should be prior to doing your test?

# 75 MR. MATHESON:

I was expecting to see a BA.

KEY QUOTE

# 76 MR. GOLDBERG:

And is that what you saw?

# 77 MR. MATHESON:

No.

# 78 MR. GOLDBERG:

What did you see?

# 79 MR. MATHESON:

I saw an inconclusive result with some kind of fuzzy areas that lined up with the two B bands.

KEY QUOTE

# 80 MR. GOLDBERG:

So you called it as a B inconclusive?

# 81 MR. MATHESON:

B question mark, and the conclusion was that it was inconclusive.

# 82 MR. GOLDBERG:

And, sir, did your preconceptions in any way affect that result or that--that notation in your reports?

# 83 MR. MATHESON:

No, it did not.

# 84 MR. GOLDBERG:

In the literature, have you seen a single reference that says that the only degradation route is the one that was discussed in the article by Wraxall under all conditions?

# 85 MR. MATHESON:

Not that I recall, no.

# 86 MR. GOLDBERG:

And has anything that was brought up to you on cross-examination with respect to the EAP issue--excuse me--on re-recross caused you to reevaluate or reform any of the opinions that you've presented here in court on the EAP issue?

# 87 MR. MATHESON:

No, it has not.

# 88 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, on the card key system--you were asked about the computer system and dealing with evidence tracking and the card key system dealing with the doors. Are those two separate systems?

# 89 MR. MATHESON:

I'm sorry. Would you repeat the question?

# 90 MR. GOLDBERG:

There--you have a computer system dealing with door entries; is that correct?

# 91 MR. MATHESON:

Yes.

# 92 MR. GOLDBERG:

And you have a system that also tracks evidence called the set system; is that correct?

# 93 MR. MATHESON:

That's correct.

# 94 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, are those the same computer program or are they different computer programs or what?

# 95 MR. MATHESON:

They're totally unrelated, actually sit on totally different computers.

# 96 MR. GOLDBERG:

And was the card key system with respect to the laboratory in fact in operation from let's say June the 12th all the way forward to today?

# 97 MR. MATHESON:

Yes.

# 98 MR. GOLDBERG:

Do you know how much--do you have any personal knowledge of how much was in the blood vial at the time that it initially came to the laboratory?

# 99 MR. MATHESON:

No, I do not.

# 100 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, with respect to the evidence processing room, is there any practice in place at SID to take detectives on tours of the laboratory and point out to them where everything is and where the drying cabinet is and the like?

# 101 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Asked and answered.

# 102 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 103 MR. MATHESON:

We do occasionally give tours to detectives.

# 104 MR. GOLDBERG:

Is that done though for every single one systematically?

# 105 MR. MATHESON:

No, it isn't. If they express an interest, we'll be happy to show them around.

# 106 MR. GOLDBERG:

When you take tours, do--would you make it a point--well, have you ever done a tour yourself?

# 107 MR. MATHESON:

As far as giving one?

# 108 MR. GOLDBERG:

Yeah.

# 109 MR. MATHESON:

Yes.

# 110 MR. GOLDBERG:

And do you make it a point when you're giving a tour to point out the drying cabinet, "This is where we dry our biological evidence?"

# 111 MR. BLASIER:

Objection. Argumentative.

# 112 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 113 MR. MATHESON:

No, that's not one of the highlights of the tour.

KEY QUOTE

# 114 MR. GOLDBERG:

Actually, the lab is set up for tours, isn't it?

# 115 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, it is. The windows into the lab and we actually have an audio system where you can push a button and listen to us talk about that unit.

# 116 MR. GOLDBERG:

And with these windows, is that so that people can look inside the lab and see what's going on and then they press a little button that gives them a description of it?

# 117 MR. MATHESON:

If they want to, yes.

# 118 MR. GOLDBERG:

And are these guided tours that you occasionally give to school children and the like?

# 119 MR. MATHESON:

Yes.

# 120 MR. GOLDBERG:

So they just go through the corridor area and they can press these buttons?

# 121 MR. MATHESON:

They can, yes.

# 122 MR. GOLDBERG:

All right. So if--when someone's working in the laboratory on evidence, say, the serology laboratory, there's a window that's set up so that people can see in and watch what they're doing?

# 123 MR. MATHESON:

Yeah. Most parts of the lab. You can't see into all corners of it.

# 124 MR. GOLDBERG:

All right. Now, have you ever seen--do you know whether Detective Vannatter, Detective Lange or Detective Fuhrman have ever had any tour of the SID facility?

# 125 MR. MATHESON:

I have no personal knowledge of that.

# 126 MR. GOLDBERG:

And have you ever see either of those detectives trained in how to collect a swatch?

# 127 MR. MATHESON:

I don't remember if any of them have received direct training on that.

# 128 MR. GOLDBERG:

Have you ever seen them collect a swatch?

# 129 MR. MATHESON:

Not that I can recall.

# 130 MR. GOLDBERG:

Thank you. I think that may be just about it. Let me check.

# 131 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 132 MR. GOLDBERG:

Can I just have one moment, your Honor? I think that that's just about it. Thank you very much, Mr. Matheson, and ladies and gentlemen.

# 133 THE COURT:

Mr. Blasier.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Gregory Matheson

Where test results are inconclusive or indefinite, any conclusion drawn shall be fully explained.

Goldberg reads the ethics code (paragraph 2-E) into the record to show that Matheson's lengthy explanation of inconclusive EAP results was ethically required, not a sign of evasion.

Gregory Matheson

I was expecting to see a BA.

Matheson admits he expected Nicole's blood to type BA before testing — but then confirms he still recorded an inconclusive B result, undercutting the defense's preconception argument.

Gregory Matheson

No, that's not one of the highlights of the tour.

Dry, understated humor about the drying cabinet — subtly deflecting the defense implication that detectives should have known about evidence drying procedures from lab tours.

Gregory Matheson

I saw an inconclusive result with some kind of fuzzy areas that lined up with the two B bands.

Matheson's plain-language description of what he actually observed in Nicole's blood sample — key to the EAP/blood typing dispute.

Evidence (5)

Informal

Yeshion article on EAP degradation — addressed B-to-CB phenomenon, not BA-to-B

discussed, distinguished

Informal

Grunbaum study on EAP typing — contained a mistyped BA sample with distinct band patterns

discussed

Informal

Wraxall article on EAP degradation routes

referenced in passing

Informal

Sample 42 — pool of blood from Nicole Brown Simpson's body, expected to type BA, resulted in inconclusive B

discussed

Informal

California Association of Criminalists code of ethics, paragraph 2-E

read into record

Notable Exchanges (3)

Hank Goldberg•Gregory Matheson

Goldberg walks Matheson through the ethics code to frame his exhaustive EAP testimony as ethically mandated rather than gratuitous — Matheson confirms he always followed standards to the best of his ability.

strategic

Hank Goldberg•Gregory Matheson

Exchange establishing that Matheson expected Nicole's blood to type BA before testing, yet still recorded an inconclusive B — directly rebutting defense's preconception theory.

revealing

Hank Goldberg•Gregory Matheson

Brief exchange about the lab's public tour setup — windows, audio buttons, school children — used to contextualize why detectives may not have known about the drying cabinet.

routine

Light Moments (2)

Gregory Matheson

Matheson dryly notes that showing visitors the drying cabinet is 'not one of the highlights of the tour,' drawing a small contrast between the lab's public-facing interest and the mundane storage question the defense raised.

Gregory Matheson

Matheson describes the lab's audio tour system — push a button to hear descriptions of each unit — a surprisingly modern and whimsical detail for a crime lab.

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Gregory Matheson

preconception bias

Defense had argued on cross that Matheson's knowledge that sample 42 came from Nicole predisposed him to misread results; Goldberg rehabilitates by showing Matheson expected BA but still reported inconclusive B.

Witness Demeanor

(Brief pause.)

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

Objections

9 objections (3 sustained, 6 overruled)

Proceeding 5937 • 133 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103