📄 Redirect examination of Gregory Matheson (part 1) — Thursday, May 4, 1995
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▲ Day 67 of 167

Redirect examination of Gregory Matheson (part 1)

Witness: Gregory Matheson
Examiner: Hank Goldberg
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, May 4, 1995 • Utterances: 81
Goldberg conducts redirect examination of LAPD serologist Gregory Matheson, rehabilitating his EAP blood marker testimony that was challenged on cross. Goldberg draws out that Matheson was constrained during cross-examination to four articles and was not asked about a book he also consulted, then walks through why the Wraxall and Emes study's findings on EAP degradation don't necessarily apply to the crime scene evidence because the study used dry laboratory stains while the Bundy scene blood was described as tacky and damp. Matheson also clarifies that the degradation route discussed on cross is not the only possible route.
1 THE COURT:

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. All right. Mr. Matheson, would you resume the witness stand, please.

Gregory Matheson, The witness on the stand at the time of the noon recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

2 THE COURT:

All right. The record should reflect we have been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Mr. Gregory Matheson is again on the witness stand now undergoing redirect examination. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good afternoon.

3 THE COURT:

Good afternoon, Mr. Matheson. You are reminded you are still under oath. Mr. Goldberg, you may commence your redirect examination.

4 MR. GOLDBERG:

Thank you, your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDBERG

5 MR. GOLDBERG:

Good afternoon, Mr. Matheson.

6 MR. MATHESON:

Hello.

7 MR. GOLDBERG:

Ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good afternoon.

8 MR. GOLDBERG:

Sir, I wanted to start out by asking you more about this EAP issue and I know we have discussed it at some length. You were asked about some literature during cross-examination. Do you recall that?

9 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, I do.

10 MR. GOLDBERG:

And specifically you were asked about four articles that you were shown on the witness stand that you read prior to your testimony in Court?

11 MR. MATHESON:

That's correct.

12 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, you said at one point that those were the only articles that you considered prior to testifying about this EAP issue for your testimony in this proceeding?

13 MR. MATHESON:

That's correct.

14 MR. GOLDBERG:

But you alluded to some book that you looked at?

15 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, I did.

16 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, why on cross-examination didn't you tell the Defense about what was in this book?

17 MR. MATHESON:

I wasn't asked about it. I was limited to the articles.

KEY QUOTE
18 MR. GOLDBERG:

You mean by the questioning?

19 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, that's correct.

20 MR. GOLDBERG:

All right. I would like to get into that in a little while, but first let's take a look at some of these articles that were referred to. Mr. Matheson, first on the Wraxall and Emes article--

21 THE COURT:

How do you spell those?

22 MR. GOLDBERG:

W-r-a-x-a-l-l, Emes, e-m-e-s.

23 THE COURT:

Thank you.

24 MR. GOLDBERG:

Thank you.

25 MR. GOLDBERG:

Is this one of the articles, sir, that you considered prior to your testimony?

26 MR. MATHESON:

It is one of the ones I read, yes.

27 MR. GOLDBERG:

And did this article actually contain a study that was done involving a number of samples to determine how it degrades, how the EAP marker degrades?

28 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, it did.

29 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, on these stains that were studied in this particular article, were these stains in a wet condition or in a dry laboratory condition?

30 MR. MATHESON:

I believe they were dry.

31 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, the stains at the scene in this case, item 42, if we were to assume hypothetically that when Mr. Fung saw that he described it as being tacky when he arrived there at sometime after 10:15, would that distinguish the blood that we are talking about in our case from the type of blood that was studied in the Wraxall article?

32 MR. BLASIER:

Your Honor, I'm going to object. That misstates the testimony if he is talking about fingernails.

33 THE COURT:

I'm sorry?

34 MR. BLASIER:

If he is talking about the fingernails.

35 THE COURT:

Overruled.

36 MR. MATHESON:

If the blood was tacky or damp, then that would be a different set of conditions.

KEY QUOTE
37 MR. GOLDBERG:

And when you looked at the bindles on one of the fingernail scrapings in this case, there was some evidence that it was tacky even when it was collected; is that correct?

38 MR. MATHESON:

There was what appeared to be smearing on it that would indicate that it was still damp.

39 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, why is this distinction between damp and dry stains in a laboratory condition--let me ask it another way. Why is a distinction between damp stains at a crime scene as opposed to dry stains in a laboratory setting significant?

40 MR. MATHESON:

Well, it is different conditions.

41 MR. GOLDBERG:

But what is significant forensically about the different conditions in terms of degradation?

42 MR. MATHESON:

Well, damp conditions, like I mentioned before, hastens certain types of degradation. A dried sample or even a damp sample for that case that is subjected to heat is a different type of environmental situation and potentially could create a different type of result.

KEY QUOTE
43 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, with respect to the Wraxall and Emes article--Wraxall and Emes article, did you, in interpreting that article, take this as a cautionary type statement with respect to the EAP marker?

44 MR. BLASIER:

Objection, leading.

45 THE COURT:

Overruled.

46 MR. MATHESON:

I'm sorry, I don't--

47 MR. GOLDBERG:

Did you take this as a statement to a forensic analyst to use caution with the EAP marker in terms of typing it?

48 MR. MATHESON:

"this" meaning the whole article?

49 MR. GOLDBERG:

Yes.

50 MR. MATHESON:

The crux of that and many of the other articles is just an indication that the EAP has a problem with degradation and you need to be careful about how it is interpreted.

51 MR. GOLDBERG:

And is that how you interpreted the article overall?

52 MR. MATHESON:

Yes.

53 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, is it correct that with respect to these dried laboratory stains that they were talking about in Wraxall and Emes they did identify a particular degradation route?

54 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, they did.

55 MR. GOLDBERG:

And I would like to direct your attention back to our EAP board so maybe we can understand this.

56 (Brief pause.)
57 MR. GOLDBERG:

While we are getting that maybe you can describe for us verbally what this degradation route was that was discussed both during cross-examination and also in Wraxall?

58 MR. MATHESON:

My understanding of it is similar to what was discussed before, that under those conditions in identifying the samples the way they are, you know, the process of identifying the types, the degradation route showed the progressive loss of the faster bands or the anodal bands so that you lose first an a2, b2, a1 and then eventually the b1.

59 MR. GOLDBERG:

Okay. Now, let's take this step-by-step. You used the term "anodal." What does that mean?

60 MR. MATHESON:

That is an electrical term that has reference to the positive side as opposed to the negative side, which is cathodal.

61 MR. GOLDBERG:

Looking at our EAP phenotype Board, the block diagrams that we used, can you tell us which is the anodal side of the diagram?

62 MR. MATHESON:

Looking at the diagram, the anodal is the plus sign on the left and the cathodal is on the right where the negative is.

63 MR. GOLDBERG:

Why don't we take off the little magnetic strips.

64 (Brief pause.)
65 MR. GOLDBERG:

Okay. So with respect to the BA phenotype, can you describe for us the degradation route that was discussed by Wraxall and Emes with respect to dried laboratory stains that were aged?

66 MR. MATHESON:

The degradation route, like previously described on cross--

67 MR. GOLDBERG:

Maybe you can use a pointer or something.

68 THE COURT:

All right. We are referring to People's exhibit 217?

69 MR. GOLDBERG:

I believe so. Let me double-check.

70 (Brief pause.)
71 THE COURT:

217.

72 MR. GOLDBERG:

Yes.

73 MR. MATHESON:

The degradation route, as was previously described but using this chart now to chart it, would mean that you would have a loss of the a band, which is indicated above the farthest to the left, then the B band, next one to the right of it, then the other a band, second band from the right, and then finally what has been marked as the C band.

74 MR. GOLDBERG:

And that is the degradation route that was described in this Wraxall and Emes?

75 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, under the conditions that they had those samples.

76 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, sir, in your experience as a serologist, and also based upon your reading of the literature, is that the only degradation route?

77 MR. MATHESON:

No, it is not.

78 MR. GOLDBERG:

And generally speaking, maybe this is a slight oversimplification, you are saying this particular degradation route would be from the positive side to the negative side of the block diagram that we have?

79 MR. MATHESON:

The one I described earlier, yes.

80 MR. GOLDBERG:

But it is not the only one?

81 MR. MATHESON:

No.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Gregory Matheson
I wasn't asked about it. I was limited to the articles.
Explains why he didn't volunteer the book's contents on cross-examination — he was constrained by the scope of defense questioning, not concealing information.
Gregory Matheson
If the blood was tacky or damp, then that would be a different set of conditions.
Core of the rehabilitation: distinguishes the crime scene evidence from the dry laboratory conditions of the Wraxall study used to challenge EAP typing.
Gregory Matheson
Damp conditions, like I mentioned before, hastens certain types of degradation. A dried sample or even a damp sample for that case that is subjected to heat is a different set of conditions and potentially could create a different type of result.
Undercuts the defense's use of Wraxall by establishing that environmental conditions matter significantly to EAP degradation patterns.
Gregory Matheson
No, it is not.
Direct answer that the degradation route the defense emphasized on cross is not the only possible route — leaves open that the actual results could be consistent with genuine typing.

Evidence (5)

People's 217
EAP phenotype board with block diagrams showing band positions and degradation routes
Used by Matheson to illustrate the anodal degradation sequence described in Wraxall and Emes
Informal
Wraxall and Emes article — scientific study of EAP degradation using dried laboratory stains
Discussed and distinguished from crime scene conditions
Informal
Item 42 — blood stain from crime scene, described as tacky when collected by Fung after 10:15
Referenced hypothetically to contrast with Wraxall study conditions
Informal
Fingernail scrapings/bindles — showed smearing indicating blood was still damp at collection
Cited as evidence of damp conditions distinguishing case evidence from study
Informal
Unspecified book on EAP consulted by Matheson prior to testimony
Acknowledged existence; not discussed substantively — Goldberg notes it was not raised on cross

Notable Exchanges (2)

Hank GoldbergRobert BlasierLance A. Ito
Blasier objects that Goldberg's question misstates prior testimony about fingernails; Ito overrules without apparent clarification of the specific dispute, allowing Matheson to answer.
procedural
Hank GoldbergGregory Matheson
Goldberg methodically walks Matheson through the EAP board, having him physically describe the degradation route band by band to rebuild the prosecution's framing of what the literature actually establishes.
strategic

Witness Demeanor

(Brief pause.) — while EAP board was retrieved
(Brief pause.) — while exhibit number was confirmed

Objections

2 objections (0 sustained, 2 overruled)
Proceeding 5915 • 81 utterances • Prosecution witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 MAY 4, 1995 📄 Redirect examination of Gregor
MAY 4, 1995 KRT DvH TD