📄 Knife exhibit discussion — Thursday, May 4, 1995
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAY\4\KNIFE-EXHIBIT-DISCUSSION.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 67 of 167

Knife exhibit discussion

Date: Thursday, May 4, 1995 • Utterances: 26
Outside the jury's presence, the court heard arguments over the admissibility of Exhibit 118, a knife found outside Simpson's estate on July 2nd — over a week after a metal detector sweep of the area. The defense argued it was relevant because blood on the knife matched the EAP type B blood found under Nicole Brown Simpson's fingernails, potentially implicating another perpetrator. Clark countered that the blood was degraded, the knife was obviously planted post-sweep, and admitting it would require five additional witnesses for a 'ludicrous' red herring. Ito took the package of reports as Court's Exhibit 20 and called a recess to review.
1 (At 10:11 A.M. the jury was excused and the following proceedings were held in open Court:)
2 THE COURT:

All right. The record should reflect that--everybody be seated, please. All right. The record will reflect the jury has withdrawn from the courtroom. Mr. Blasier, what is the relevance of 118?

3 MR. BLASIER:

Your Honor, 118 is a knife that was found outside of Mr. Simpson's estate on July 2nd and was turned over to the police at that time. It was a knife that was not there on the 13th. It had obviously been planted there by somebody. It had blood on it. That blood was tested and it came back as an EAP type B which is the same type of blood as the blood under the fingernails of Nicole Brown Simpson, according to Mr. Matheson's own test results. Therefore, it is relevant as it may be a knife--and I would also indicate that the size of the knife is consistent with the wounds on the victim. And I would argue that it is relevant on the issue of possibly having blood of a perpetrator other than Mr. Simpson on it. Your Honor, I ask Mr. Matheson to step out, please.

4 THE COURT:

For this discussion?

5 MR. BLASIER:

Yes.

6 THE COURT:

No. Is that it?

7 MR. BLASIER:

Yes.

8 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
9 MS. CLARK:

No. 1 thing, your Honor, is that the whole area was swept with metal detectors on June 28th. The second thing is that this was discovered, what, one week thereafter on July 2nd or 3rd, by Detective Payne pursuant to a tip concerning the people that allegedly found it there. And those people turned it over wrapped in a blouse. What is ridiculous about the Defense position is that the areas of the knife that were tested and turned up in EAP type B was on the tip, the end of the blade of the knife. That is not going to be the blood of the perpetrator; that is going to be the blood of the victim. So what Mr. Blasier is a saying is that that is inconsistent with a true type B and not a BA, then this knife is completely irrelevant, because as we know for sure, none of these victims was a type B. Now, if what Mr. Blasier would like to argue is that this is actually the blood that is a BA type degraded to a B, that is fine. I don't know what he does with his inconsistent argument that the type B found under her fingernails was actually not a BA degraded but a real B. That becomes internally inconsistent. So their position is revealed, by their insistence on this piece of evidence, to be both logically and scientifically ridiculous. There is no relevance because it was obviously not there at the relevant time. It was planted there by someone else. We also have a situation in the testing of this item that reveals that there is no PGM obtainable. Obviously what we have is very degraded blood on this knife. The EAP came back B in one spot and--excuse me, your Honor. I'm talking fast because I know you want to get this done. And B inconclusive on the EAP marker, but there was no PGM obtainable from it at all, showing how severely degraded this blood is. So that all of those factors put together reveal how irrelevant this piece of evidence, quote-unquote, really is. I would like for Mr. Matheson to address further the scientific issues, if the Court would like to hear that, concerning the significance of the degradation, the loss of the PGM marker. What is interesting in contrast is that the fingernail scrapings from underneath Miss Brown's fingernails reveals we do have a PGM type that is consistent with her which tends to further buttress the blood type EAP is a degraded BA, but on this knife we have nothing. All we have is an EAP that shows a B and a B inconclusive, no PGM activity on the blade of the knife, which would be the blood of the victim, so what does that have to do with this case at a point in time after the metal detectors have swept the area? It is more nonsense red herring is what it is, and under 352 it would be unduly misleading, confusing and time consuming to this jury to chase down yet another dead-end that the Defense wants to shove in their face. May I confer one moment, your Honor?

10 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
11 MS. CLARK:

Yes. Mr. Darden points out further that it would take about five witnesses to resolve this. We would need the searches, who did the metal detector sweep. We would need Detective Payne who received the tip. We would need the persons who found the knife. That is another three people who found it. And then the analysis of the knife by Mr. Matheson. We are talking about quite a lot of time to chase down something that is completely not only irrelevant, but ludicrous in this trial.

12 THE COURT:

Mr. Blasier.

13 MR. BLASIER:

Your Honor, I resent the notion that we planted this evidence. There were four people that have nothing to do with this case that we've talked to who found that knife.

14 THE COURT:

I didn't hear that comment made, counsel.

15 MR. BLASIER:

I did, I'm sorry.

16 MS. CLARK:

I never said that.

17 MR. BLASIER:

They say it is not relevant because they don't want to believe it. It has blood on it that is consistent with the blood under the fingernails. That makes it relevant. Whether they like it or not, that is relevant evidence and everything she said goes to weight; it should not go to admissibility.

18 THE COURT:

All right. I will make, for the purpose of this particular item, the package of reports, Court's exhibit no. 10.

19 (Court's 20 for id = reports)
20 THE COURT:

All right. Let me read it and we will take a recess and we will see what we do with it.

21 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
22 MR. BLASIER:

Your Honor, before we do that, I would like to make a record on the exhibit, if I might.

23 THE COURT:

Counsel, you had your opportunity.

24 MR. BLASIER:

Your Honor, I don't think we did it on the record and I apologize if I have missed some step here, but I don't like to play a guessing game, but I don't know what you want. I thought we had covered everything that we had talked about and I'm asking as a courtesy for some guidance. That is all.

25 THE COURT:

We will stand in recess.

26 (Recess.)

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Robert Blasier
It was a knife that was not there on the 13th. It had obviously been planted there by somebody.
Defense acknowledges the knife was planted — but argues by an unknown third party, implying an alternate perpetrator.
Marcia Clark
Their position is revealed, by their insistence on this piece of evidence, to be both logically and scientifically ridiculous.
Clark argues the defense's blood-type reasoning is internally inconsistent — they can't simultaneously claim the fingernail blood is a true type B and that the knife blood implicates a different perpetrator.
Marcia Clark
It is more nonsense red herring is what it is, and under 352 it would be unduly misleading, confusing and time consuming to this jury to chase down yet another dead-end that the Defense wants to shove in their face.
Prosecution invokes Evidence Code 352 to exclude the knife on prejudice/time grounds, characterizing the defense strategy broadly as obfuscation.
Robert Blasier
It has blood on it that is consistent with the blood under the fingernails. That makes it relevant. Whether they like it or not, that is relevant evidence and everything she said goes to weight; it should not go to admissibility.
Classic defense framing: credibility disputes belong to the jury, not the judge — the court should not exclude evidence simply because it is contested.

Evidence (3)

People's 118
Knife found outside Simpson's estate on July 2nd, approximately one week after a metal detector sweep of the area; had blood on it testing EAP type B
admissibility argued, ruling deferred
Court's 20
Package of reports related to Exhibit 118 (knife)
marked for identification by the court
Informal
Fingernail scrapings from Nicole Brown Simpson showing EAP type B blood and PGM activity consistent with her own type
discussed as comparison point against knife blood

Notable Exchanges (2)

Robert BlasierMarcia Clark
Blasier accused Clark of suggesting the defense planted the knife; Clark denied saying it; Ito noted he hadn't heard that comment. Clark had actually said the knife was 'planted by someone else,' not by the defense.
heated/defensive
Robert BlasierLance A. Ito
After Ito called a recess to review reports, Blasier tried to make additional record; Ito cut him off saying he'd had his opportunity. Blasier apologized and asked for guidance on procedure.
tense/procedural

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Defense alternate-perpetrator theory
scientific impeachment
Clark argued the defense position was internally inconsistent: they couldn't claim the type B under Nicole's fingernails was a true B (implicating a third party) while also relying on EAP type B on the knife as meaningful — the same degradation argument that undermined the knife blood would also apply to the fingernail blood.

Objections

None recorded
Proceeding 5908 • 26 utterances
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 MAY 4, 1995 📄 Knife exhibit discussion
MAY 4, 1995 KRT DvH TD