Direct examination of Gregory Matheson (part 2)

📄 Direct examination of Gregory Matheson (part 2) — Thursday, May 4, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAY\4\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-GREGORY-.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 67 of 167

Witness: Gregory Matheson
Examiner: Hank Goldberg
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, May 4, 1995 • Utterances: 168

Prosecutor Goldberg continues redirect examination of LAPD serologist Gregory Matheson, focusing on the EAP (Erythrocyte Acid Phosphatase) blood typing results from items 84-A, 84-B, and 85-A/B — fingernail scrapings showing a B-like pattern that Matheson attributed to sample degradation. Goldberg also attempted to introduce item 117 (a rear gate stain from Bundy) as corroborating evidence of the degradation phenomenon, but Judge Ito repeatedly sustained defense objections that it was beyond the scope of direct, ultimately instructing the jury to disregard that lane on the printed exhibit.

# 1 MR. GOLDBERG:

Do you want me to continue? Oh, I'm sorry.

# 2 THE COURT:

No, no.

# 3 (Brief pause.)

# 4 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Goldberg, would you collect that from Deputy Long, please.

# 5 MR. GOLDBERG:

Thank you.

# 6 THE COURT:

All right. Proceed.

# 7 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, Mr. Matheson, I want to show you 224-A for identification. And does that--do you still have that--does that have item no. 42--excuse me--item no. 84 in it?

# 8 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, it does.

# 9 MR. GOLDBERG:

Using the same pen, can you write arrows for 84-A and 84-B?

# 10 MR. MATHESON:

Okay. I'm writing an a--two arrows down from the two columns that have 84-A and 84-B and then marking 84-A under one of the arrows and just B under the other one because of lack of space.

# 11 MR. GOLDBERG:

Sir, on that are there any other results that you got that appear to contain a B like pattern?

# 12 MR. MATHESON:

There are actually a couple others that I called B inconclusive, and I believe there is one--no, that is it.

# 13 MR. GOLDBERG:

Is there a 117 on there?

# 14 MR. MATHESON:

One of the lanes is the results of item 117, yes.

# 15 MR. GOLDBERG:

Can you just point that out for us with the arrow, in other words, and write "117."

# 16 MR. MATHESON:

Okay. I'm writing again an arrow pointing up into the lane that expresses the results or the data obtained from item no. 117.

# 17 MR. GOLDBERG:

And was 117 identified as being one of the rear gate stains from the Bundy location?

# 18 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, I believe it was.

# 19 MR. GOLDBERG:

And you got a B like pattern on that?

# 20 MR. MATHESON:

I called it a B question mark inconclusive, yes.

KEY QUOTE

# 21 (Brief pause.)

# 22 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, Mr. Matheson, why do the lanes that contain 84-A and B look so messy to a lay person?

# 23 MR. MATHESON:

Well, there are times in electrophoresis where when you are doing a run, there is something that blocks or hinders the electrical flow through it, through the gel from one side to another and causes the bands not to migrate as evenly as they should.

# 24 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, with respect to 84-A and B, are there any hazy areas on this that do not, in your opinion, constitute a distinct band pattern?

# 25 MR. MATHESON:

Well, there is general haziness in a lot of the areas.

# 26 MR. GOLDBERG:

And maybe using the marker, can you identify some of the haziness for us that in your opinion does not constitute a distinct band pattern? In other words, an a like band?

# 27 MR. MATHESON:

Well, in general there is a haziness that shows up--we are talking about 84-A and B right now?

# 28 MR. GOLDBERG:

Yeah.

# 29 MR. MATHESON:

That does show up or appear to exist between the two B bands. It is a general florescence or luminescence occurring there.

# 30 MR. GOLDBERG:

Of which one, 84-A or 84-B?

# 31 MR. MATHESON:

Well, as I see it here, both of them. There just appears to be a general lightening of that area.

# 32 MR. GOLDBERG:

Can you direct the arrow down to the location that you are referring to.

# 33 MR. MATHESON:

Okay. If you move the arrow to the left, farther, and down, down, right in there, (Indicating). In general that is true on both items.

# 34 MR. GOLDBERG:

And you mean on 84-B1 as well?

# 35 MR. MATHESON:

That's correct.

# 36 MR. GOLDBERG:

Can you direct the arrow to the area on the 84-B side--can you get the arrow--

# 37 MR. MATHESON:

There we go.

# 38 MR. BLASIER:

Objection, irrelevant, that this has some foundation or any scientific meaning.

# 39 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 40 MR. MATHESON:

Move the arrow to the right and down a little bit. In that general area there you can see there is a light brightening of that area, not a band, but something is occurring in that area.

# 41 MR. GOLDBERG:

But in your view does that have any forensic significance?

# 42 MR. MATHESON:

Well, it is not anything that I would call even close to a band, so no.

# 43 MR. GOLDBERG:

Okay. Is that why it does--it is helpful to have some experience in looking at these kind of things, as opposed to just being a lay person, to try to distinguish between something that is there but doesn't have any significance and something that is there and does?

# 44 MR. BLASIER:

Objection, leading.

# 45 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 46 MR. GOLDBERG:

Sir, does your experience as a serologist help you to distinguish between something that appears that does not have significance, when looking at EAP, as opposed to something that does?

# 47 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, it does.

# 48 MR. GOLDBERG:

And how so?

# 49 MR. MATHESON:

After having seen many of these samples, you get the experience on how to read them.

# 50 MR. GOLDBERG:

And in your opinion these highlighted areas, not highlighted, but the areas with the arrows pointing to them, you would not conclude are a bands; is that correct?

# 51 MR. MATHESON:

I don't see what I feel are bands in that area.

# 52 MR. GOLDBERG:

All right. Now, directing your attention to 117--

# 53 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 54 MR. GOLDBERG:

How many bands on 84-A do you see?

# 55 MR. MATHESON:

We are talking about 84-A now, right?

# 56 MR. GOLDBERG:

84-A?

# 57 MR. MATHESON:

I see what appears to be two bands.

# 58 MR. GOLDBERG:

Can we use a different color arrow to demarcate those two bands?

# 59 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 60 MR. GOLDBERG:

Mr. Matheson--

# 61 MR. MATHESON:

Move it down, please. That is one of the band there, (Indicating). It is kind of curved, but that is the band. Down further. Down, down, down. Right about there, (Indicating), roughly the middle left side of that band as it curves down.

# 62 MR. GOLDBERG:

And can you now mark for us using also green arrows, but facing the other way, the bands that you see on 84-B?

# 63 MR. MATHESON:

Move it down. Over to the left a little bit, a little bit further. Right there, (Indicating). That is one of the bands. And down further. Down, down. Go to the left and right down inside. That mush is another--move it up just a little bit. There, (Indicating), that is the location of the other band.

# 64 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, let's turn our attention to 117. If we can just keep this all and then print it out later to get it all in one shot. Just for the record, Mr. Matheson, there are two yellow arrows. Do those yellow arrows signify what you are saying are the B bands in the 84-A lane?

# 65 MR. MATHESON:

Yes.

# 66 MR. GOLDBERG:

And the red arrow signifies some haze that you consider to be insignificant?

# 67 MR. MATHESON:

That I don't consider to be a band, that's correct.

# 68 MR. GOLDBERG:

With respect to the 84-B lane, the green arrows signify the B bands in that lane?

# 69 MR. MATHESON:

Yes.

# 70 MR. GOLDBERG:

And the blue arrow signifies what?

# 71 MR. MATHESON:

The hazy area in between it.

# 72 MR. GOLDBERG:

That you do not attribute forensic significance to?

# 73 MR. MATHESON:

That I'm not seeing a band, that's correct.

# 74 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, turning our attention to 117.

# 75 MR. BLASIER:

I'm going to have to object on relevance grounds if this was part of the control study.

# 76 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 77 MR. GOLDBERG:

Turning your attention to 117, does that also have a B like pattern, according to your testimony; is that correct?

# 78 MR. MATHESON:

Well, I called it a B inconclusive.

# 79 MR. GOLDBERG:

Right.

# 80 MR. MATHESON:

Both bands are present.

# 81 MR. BLASIER:

Objection, outside the scope of direct on 117. It was never mentioned.

# 82 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 83 MR. GOLDBERG:

Okay. Mr. Matheson, in your experience in other cases have you seen instances where a known BA sample had degraded in such a way as to appear to be a B with both B bands present?

# 84 MR. MATHESON:

I believe I have, yes.

# 85 MR. GOLDBERG:

And have you seen situations like that occurring in your opinion at this particular crime scene?

# 86 MR. MATHESON:

Yes, I believe I have.

# 87 MR. GOLDBERG:

Only in the pool of blood 42 or elsewhere at the crime scene?

# 88 MR. MATHESON:

Taking into account other information elsewhere.

# 89 MR. GOLDBERG:

And is 117 one of the other locations where you believe that you have seen a B like pattern?

# 90 MR. BLASIER:

Objection, beyond the scope.

# 91 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 92 MR. GOLDBERG:

Well, sir, in your opinion--is your opinion as to the fingernail scrapings that you have offered both on direct and cross, take into account anything else at the crime scene other than the items that you testified to specifically on direct and cross-examination?

# 93 MR. BLASIER:

Objection, beyond the scope.

# 94 THE COURT:

Overruled. You can answer that question.

# 95 MR. MATHESON:

There is one other sample that I did take into consideration, not necessarily to make the call of the B, but to reinforce my feeling that it may have at one time been a BA and that this phenomena does in fact exist.

KEY QUOTE

# 96 MR. GOLDBERG:

And which one was that?

# 97 MR. MATHESON:

Item no. 117.

# 98 MR. BLASIER:

Objection, beyond the scope. Move to strike.

# 99 THE COURT:

Sustained. We are not going to go into 117.

# 100 MR. GOLDBERG:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 101 THE COURT:

Let's move on.

# 102 MR. GOLDBERG:

Can we print out a copy of this document?

# 103 MR. BLASIER:

Objection, beyond the scope. I object to anything with 117 on it.

# 104 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 105 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 106 THE COURT:

The jury is instructed on this exhibit to just disregard the 117 lane, but rather than go back and remark the whole thing, let's print it out. All right. Let's proceed.

# 107 MR. GOLDBERG:

Thank you.

# 108 THE COURT:

We can slice that part off.

# 109 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 110 THE COURT:

Is that it?

# 111 MR. GOLDBERG:

On this.

# 112 THE COURT:

Okay.

# 113 MR. GOLDBERG:

Maybe I can proceed with a few more questions and wrap up the EAP issue and then I would like to show these photograph and the printout to the jury. The photo I would like to mark as 224--I mean the printout as 224-D.

# 114 MR. BLASIER:

Your Honor, I would request that the printout be cut off on the end rather than scribbled on.

# 115 THE COURT:

We will do that.

# 116 (Brief pause.)

# 117 MR. GOLDBERG:

With respect to item 85, we won't show the electrophoresis plate on that. I'm not sure that it is worth the time. But on 85-A and B, on our board you said that the EAP type was inconclusive BA?

# 118 MR. MATHESON:

That is how it is on the board, yes.

# 119 MR. GOLDBERG:

And with respect to the B band--excuse me--a bands on that sample, what did you see?

# 120 MR. MATHESON:

That they were weaker than I would expect for an expected BA result.

# 121 MR. GOLDBERG:

And was what you were seeing consistent with the Wraxall and Emes article in terms of the degradation path for the laboratory stains in that article?

# 122 MR. BLASIER:

Objection, beyond the scope of direct.

# 123 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 124 MR. MATHESON:

What I was seeing, assuming that was degradation, did not appear to be consistent with that route.

# 125 MR. GOLDBERG:

Why?

# 126 MR. MATHESON:

Because the two B bands were quite bright and the two a bands were fairly weak.

# 127 MR. GOLDBERG:

Now, Mr. Matheson, with respect to this issue of EAP, what steps did you take in order to try to resolve it further after this testing was performed?

# 128 MR. MATHESON:

I recommended that those items be submitted for DNA testing.

# 129 MR. GOLDBERG:

Okay. And it was suggested that when these came back from the Department of Justice it was for the purposes of EAP testing; is that true?

# 130 MR. MATHESON:

That is something that was mentioned on cross, yes.

# 131 MR. GOLDBERG:

But I mean is it true that that is the purpose for which they were returned to your laboratory?

# 132 MR. MATHESON:

No. Like I testified, they were just returning to become a part of the rest of the case. It is our evidence.

# 133 MR. GOLDBERG:

Was everything from DOJ that was sent to them eventually returned to your laboratory?

# 134 MR. MATHESON:

Most everything. At this point I'm not sure if we have absolutely everything back in our laboratory.

# 135 MR. GOLDBERG:

And why not do another EAP test?

# 136 MR. MATHESON:

At this point I didn't feel it was necessary.

# 137 MR. GOLDBERG:

Well, why would you decide to submit it for DNA testing but not to perform another EAP test?

# 138 MR. MATHESON:

Well, initially I didn't want to use up any more sample to run additional test.

# 139 MR. GOLDBERG:

And would an additional EAP test provide you with more information?

# 140 MR. MATHESON:

I would expect it to give me the same result as it did the first time.

# 141 MR. GOLDBERG:

What a genetic rest--well, why would you expect it to give you the same result as it did the first time?

# 142 MR. MATHESON:

Because the result is what I obtained from the sample. If I run it once or a hundred times, I would expect to see the same thing from that sample.

# 143 MR. GOLDBERG:

So it doesn't get undegraded because just you run it another time?

# 144 MR. MATHESON:

Assuming, yes, degraded, yes, is would just not go undegraded.

# 145 MR. GOLDBERG:

Is there a way, according to the scientific literature, to undegrade a sample to bring out a degraded band?

# 146 MR. MATHESON:

It depends on what we are calling degraded. There are some situations where you get a type of degradation. You add, it is called a reducing agent to it, and it can correct some of the problems.

# 147 MR. GOLDBERG:

Is there anything that could be done--I don't know if this is a correct term--to undegrade bands if there are a bands in our samples here, 84-A and B?

# 148 MR. MATHESON:

Not to my knowledge, no.

# 149 MR. GOLDBERG:

And you have testified that, generally speaking, when you are doing these tests, you try to conserve samples for future testing; is that correct?

# 150 MR. MATHESON:

All types of tests, yes.

# 151 MR. GOLDBERG:

And is that so that it will be available for anyone, either the Defense or Prosecution, that wants to do more testing on an item?

# 152 MR. MATHESON:

Yes. You inventory and not use any more sample than necessary.

# 153 MR. GOLDBERG:

Did you want to conserve any remaining sample from 85-A and 85-B rather than using it on another EAP test?

# 154 THE COURT:

Isn't this sort of like the same question turned about the fifth way around?

# 155 MR. GOLDBERG:

I don't know.

# 156 THE COURT:

I think so.

# 157 THE COURT:

The jury loved the undegraded question.

KEY QUOTE

# 158 (Brief pause.)

# 159 MR. GOLDBERG:

With the Court's permission I would like to--

# 160 THE COURT:

We need to edit that, the 117 article.

# 161 (Brief pause.)

# 162 MR. GOLDBERG:

Does the Court have any scissors?

# 163 (Brief pause.)

# 164 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Fairtlough, do you want to hand those two items to juror no. 1, please.

# 165 (The exhibits were passed amongst the jury.)

# 166 THE COURT:

Mr. Goldberg, we will take a break at 2:30.

# 167 (Brief pause.)

# 168 THE COURT:

While we are waiting, let me see counsel at the side bar.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Gregory Matheson

If I run it once or a hundred times, I would expect to see the same thing from that sample.

Matheson explains why re-running the EAP test would be pointless — degraded samples don't become undegraded, undermining any suggestion that further testing would clarify the inconclusive results.

Gregory Matheson

There is one other sample that I did take into consideration, not necessarily to make the call of the B, but to reinforce my feeling that it may have at one time been a BA and that this phenomena does in fact exist.

Matheson's partial disclosure of item 117's role in his analysis — information the court then struck, creating a tension between the jury having heard it and being told to disregard it.

Lance A. Ito

The jury loved the undegraded question.

A rare moment of judicial candor and dry humor, gently chiding Goldberg for asking the same question about running additional EAP tests multiple times.

Gregory Matheson

I called it a B question mark inconclusive, yes.

Matheson's precise description of his methodology — qualifying his conclusions with uncertainty rather than asserting a definitive type, which both supports and limits the prosecution's narrative.

Evidence (6)

People's 224-A

Electrophoresis plate annotated with colored arrows marking bands and haze areas for items 84-A, 84-B, and 117

Annotated live in court with yellow, green, red, and blue arrows; printed as 224-D

People's 224-D

Printout of the annotated electrophoresis plate, with the item 117 lane physically cut off per court order

Introduced and passed to jury with 117 lane removed

Informal

Item 84-A and 84-B — fingernail scrapings with inconclusive B-like EAP pattern attributed to degradation

Discussed; band locations marked on exhibit

Informal

Item 85-A and 85-B — EAP typed as inconclusive BA, with weaker-than-expected A bands

Discussed; Matheson noted inconsistency with Wraxall/Emes degradation pathway

Informal

Item 117 — rear gate stain from Bundy, EAP called B inconclusive

Partially discussed before court sustained objection; jury instructed to disregard; lane cut from exhibit

Informal

Wraxall and Emes article — scientific literature on laboratory stain EAP degradation pathways

Referenced; Matheson testified item 85 results were not consistent with the article's degradation route

Notable Exchanges (2)

Hank Goldberg•Robert Blasier•Lance A. Ito

Goldberg repeatedly tried to work item 117 into the record as corroboration for the degradation theory. Blasier objected each time on scope grounds. Ito sustained most objections but ultimately let the jury hear Matheson name item 117 before striking it — then ordered the lane physically cut from the printed exhibit.

strategic

Hank Goldberg•Lance A. Ito

After Goldberg asked several variations of the same question about why another EAP test wasn't run, Ito interjected: 'Isn't this sort of like the same question turned about the fifth way around?' Goldberg replied 'I don't know.' Ito then remarked the jury loved the 'undegraded' formulation.

light

Light Moments (3)

Lance A. Ito

After Goldberg repeatedly asked why another EAP test wasn't performed, Ito cut in: 'Isn't this sort of like the same question turned about the fifth way around?' Goldberg responded: 'I don't know.'

Lance A. Ito

'The jury loved the undegraded question.' — Ito's dry aside after Goldberg used the word 'undegrade.'

Hank Goldberg

'Does the Court have any scissors?' — Goldberg asking for scissors to physically cut the item 117 lane from the printout.

Witness Demeanor

(Indicating) — repeated, as Matheson directed a cursor/arrow to specific bands on the electrophoresis display

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys) — multiple sidebar conferences about how to handle the 117 issue

(The exhibits were passed amongst the jury) — jury examined the annotated/printed electrophoresis plate

Objections

9 objections (4 sustained, 5 overruled)

Proceeding 5925 • 168 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103