So eight.

Okay. Of all the stains that you sampled did you ultimately test every one of them?

No.

Why not?

Well, some of them--when we are saying sampling, I mean doing any kind of a test on, such as a presumptive test, the ones I actually cut out I did tests, yes.

Okay. Of the ones that gave the presumptive positive results, why didn't you test them?

Umm, I wanted to take what I thought might be a representative sampling. There is sill a lot of material on that glove that I never got to, obviously, but--

Okay. Now, at some point then did you turn the glove right side out and examine the outside of the glove?

Yes.

Your Honor, may I put 268-C and d on the elmo at this point?

Yes.

The one--

Go ahead.

The one other point I wanted to make is that I believe that before we actually turned it inside--right side out, there were two additional stains or two additional samples in the notch area that were investigated.

When you say "the notch area," is that on the lining or the leather part?

This would be on the lining. I'm sorry, the lining part, yes, when it is still inside out.

When it is still inside out?

Yes.

Okay. Then you turned it right side out?

Yes.

And sampled the outside?

Yes.

Okay. And actually did you do these examinations and samplings in two different groups?

Yes, although the first--I mentioned the eight plus the two, that is a total of ten when it is still inside out and it is later that it is turned right side out, okay?

How many samplings did you make of the glove on the outside?

On the outside there were four in this latter set, but one of them was actually still back on the inside, down in that wrist area.

Okay. Were you operating under some kind of time constraints at that point?

Not--not in the latter stages, but in the October 15th and 16th sampling, yes, we were operating under time constraints.

What was that?

Well, we were looking at a possible cut off of any testing.

Okay. Was Dr. Blake present during the samplings of these items as he was during the other items you have already described?

Yes, he was.

Took his own photos?

Yes, he did.

Your Honor, may we approach?

No. Proceed.

I have an objection.

Noted. Proceed.

Your Honor, I'm going to be moving to the nail board that has some photos of Nicole on it, exhibit no. 220. I wanted to move on to--

All right.

This is the one with the nail scrapings and clippings on it.

All right. Mr. Fairtlough, let's move the easel over here.

Mr. Sims, you received items 84-A and b, LAPD items at some point?

Yes, I did.

What date was that?

That was on September 26, 1994.

And you gave them, as you have with all of these, your own item numbers?

Yes, I did.

If you would, I would like you to take a look at People's exhibit 220 for identification, specifically the top five photos. I would like you to look at them and see if those are photos that you took during your examination and sampling of these items, that is, the 84-A and b?

Yes. I took the fingernail scrapings and clippings photographs. I obviously did not take the crime scene photographs at the bottom there.

Why don't we just break them down by right-hand clippings, left-hand clippings, if you would, or perhaps why don't we just start out by listing what you called the right-hand clippings and the right-hand scrapings and the left-hand clippings and the left-hand scrapings.

Okay. The right-hand clippings, which are actually where the Coroner takes these clippings and actually clips off the ends of the nails, that is 45-A by my numbering system, and then the right-hand scrapings are 45-B and that is actually where a wooden stick is used to scrape under the nails to collect those deposits, those outer deposits under the fingernails. And then on the left side you can see the left-hand fingernail clippings. I had designated those as 46-A. Again you can see the cut-off nails. There is actually six pieces of fingernail in there, and then the left-hand fingernail scrapings debris with the wooden stick, that is 46-B by my designation.

Okay. Using the LAPD conventional numbers, 84-A and b, if you will, did you examine 84-A, the clippings?

Yes, I did.

And that is actually your 46?

That's right.

Is that correct?

That's right.

Will you describe what you observed when you opened those sealed packages and examined them.

Okay. This--this is for our--it might be easier also if we refer to left and right.

Okay. Why don't we do left-hand clippings then.

All right. This is on page 154 of my notes.

All right. Thank you, counsel.

The--starting with the left hand, which is actually opposite of the way I started, but I will look at the left here. I noted that on these clippings that there was what I felt was significantly less blood than on the right-hand clippings. You can see in the photograph. I--

And does the photograph actually depict the nail clippings and fragments that were in that package?

Yes, that photograph does. They are placed--this blue container is what we call a little plastic weigh boat. They are put in this weigh boat so that they can be photographed in that manner and documented in that fashion.

Now, there are actually six fragments in that little blue tray?

Yes. Four of these are all fingernail tips and there are two other fragments. I did not go back and try to fit them all together.

Okay. I believe you just said you noticed there was less blood in the clippings from the left hand than there was in the right hand?

Yes, I think that is--

Okay. We will talk about the right hand in a second. How about the description?

Okay. The left-hand fingernail scrapings I noted that the bindle contained a portion of a wooden stick along with some small particulate debris. You can see small particulate debris, those little dots along the bottom of that, along the fold of the bindle right there, (Indicating).

And did you actually end up sampling the scrapings, that little particulate debris?

Yes, I did. I later did that actual sampling. The other thing I wanted to point out was that on this left-hand fingernail scrapings, one doesn't see the type of wiping marks that you do see on the--the right-hand fingernail scrapings. You will notice the bindle here is fairly clean as far as my wipe marks, whereas there are wipe marks present on the right-hand fingernail scrapings. I noted that.

Okay. Let's shift to the right hand, if you will. Let's start with the right-hand clippings.

Can I make one more comment on the--

Sure. Do you have another comment about the left hand?

Well, the left hand, the comment I wanted to make was I looked at those under the stereomicroscope. It looked to me like there were some blood particles and some debris and I noticed some whitish pieces that looked like these nails. I don't know much about fingernails, but I think this is a French manicure or something like that.

Move to strike this interesting observation.

All right. The jury is to disregard Mr. Sims' comments about French manicure.

Yes, that is fine, your Honor. I just noted that there were some particles that may have been from this material, this nail-like material.

Okay. Let's move over to the right hand, if you would, and let's describe your initial examination of those clippings.

My first observation was that--excuse me--there are five fingernail clippings. It looked like there was blood on all five of them and I placed them in a weigh boat and I numbered them, 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, just to--so I could describe what I was doing with them. Again I noticed these--the whitish tips.

Anything else attract your attention when you examined those clippings?

And where was that?

That was just associated with the clippings.

Okay. And anything else with respect to the right-hand clippings?

Of particular interest there was what I thought might be a piece of tissue on the long--on the largest nail on the inside surface.

Now, can you--I'm sorry.

Well, when I'm looking at this type of evidence what I'm really keying on is to try to see if there is anything that looks like tissue. Frequently in this type of case you see blood. It is not unusual--this kind of a homicide it is not unusual to see blood under fingernails. But what I'm really keying on is looking for something foreign and that is why I would be looking for tissue.

Why would tissue be of interest?

Tissue would be of interest because if one is scratched by, nails and I have had this done to me by my big sister when I was older--when I was younger, you get some of the skin actually reflected off as you scrape it and so some of this epidermis comes off and some of the dermis can actually come off onto the fingernails and that is where it can get trapped underneath.

So at one point you saw something that you thought was tissue on the right-hand clippings?

Yes. I just called it "possible tissue." I just noted that it was suspicious and I thought it deserved further attention.

Now, is that--in your examination of either set of clippings, is that the only item, the only particle that you thought might be tissue that you observed?

Yes, yes. That was the only thing that caught--caught my eye.

And could you point out which nail clip it was that you thought there might be tissue?

Yes. It was the one designated no. 1.

So the upper--actually in the--

The largest.

The largest one at the top?

At the top, yes, (Indicating).

What did you do to pursue the possibility that that might be tissue?

I removed that particular sample and I actually extracted it and I also--I did another very simple test which was just to poke at it and it turns out to be sort of a hard material. Suggests to go me that it probably wasn't tissue; it was more likely this nail-like substance, but I also extracted it as if there might be DNA in there of sufficient or significant quantity, because if it is tissue, it should be loaded with DNA.

So is it well-known to you that tissue has significantly more DNA than blood does?

Yes, it does, because the tissue cells are generally nucleated, especially if you get into the dermal layers, that is, what you are really looking at, whereas blood the DNA comes only from the white cells which are not the major component of blood.

Okay. And so you determined to your satisfaction that it was not tissue?

Yes. Through my testing I determined that I--I didn't believe it was tissue.

Based on your examination of these clippings, as you have described them so far, because you found no tissue, did you observe any evidence that Nicole Brown scratched anyone?

Objection, calls for speculation.

Sustained.

Did you number that possible tissue? Did you assign a sample number to it?

Yes, I did.

What item number was that?

That was 45a-1a.

And then because at that point you thought there might be tissue there, did you identify some nearby blood that you ultimately tested through this process?

Yes. I--what I wanted to do was to test some of the blood that was nearby that--you know, very close in proximity, so I took some of that also and that was designated 45a-1b.

As a forensic scientist what is the significance to you in a homicide like this where blood is under the fingernail to not finding any tissue under the nails of the victim?

Objection, calls for speculation.

Overruled.

I would have to say that if there is no evidence found of that sort of type, of that tissue type, then there is just no evidence of that. I can't say that something didn't happen, but there is no evidence of it.

Okay. So we've identified 45a-1a, these are your numbers, as the possible tissue and 45a-1b as the blood near that possible tissue?

Yes.

And now, what about the right-hand scrapings? Would you please explain to the jury what you noted when you examined the package and contents of the right-hand scrapings?

Umm, the right-hand scrapings I noted that there was this wiping that I mentioned earlier on the bindle.

Would that suggest to you that that material was wet when it was wiped on there?

Yes.

Go ahead.

I looked again under the stereomicroscope at this particular area. I didn't find anything that looked like tissue to me at that point and that was where I left the first part of this examination.

How would you compare, just to your visual examination, the relative amounts of the scraping possible blood particles of the right hand versus the left hand?

Well, there was more of this sort of loose debris in the left-hand, but there is more material, if you take into account the wipes on the right-hand perhaps.

Now, ultimately how many samples did you cause to be subjected to the PCR/dna typing process that you will describe soon? How many of these samples?

Yes. I took a total of four samples for extraction. One of these was some of this material, (Indicating). Another one was some of this material.

You are talking about the right-hand fingernail scrapings?

Right-hand fingernail scrapings, the left-hand fingernail clippings, the possible tissue from up here, (Indicating), and then the nearby blood from up here, (Indicating), and then after that extraction and evaluation I actually didn't do anything more with that possible tissue because in my opinion it wasn't tissue, so there were three I believe that were pursued.

Okay. We will talk about the typing in a little while, but at some point, after your typing on these samples was completed, did you send extracted DNA from those three samples to cellmark diagnostics?

Yes, I did.

Why didn't you test every nail clipping?

Well, I--I didn't think that would be particularly productive. It is a great deal of work to do. That was the main reason. Certainly it is still there if anybody wants to test it.

So whatever you did not sample, whatever is visible in those pictures is there for anyone to test in regard to this case?

Yes.

Okay. We are done with that board.

All right. Mr. Harmon. Proceed.

Thank you, your Honor.

Before we actually describe your testing procedures, I would like to go over the samples which were in your possession from which you removed samples for testing and what remained of those items for anyone, including the Defense in this case, to test. Is that okay?

Yes.

Okay. Now, this morning we went through ten items that were never tested by you?

Yes, that's correct.

And were those all sent back to the Los Angeles Police Department?

Yes.

You didn't sample them?

That's correct. I--those I didn't even open the envelopes.

Now, just to step back from that for a second, whenever you returned items to the Los Angeles Police Department did you always seal them before you sent them back?

Yes, I did. I did. In fact, I seal things at the end of my examinations.

Okay. And then if they were put in a larger package that would be sealed, too?

Yes.

And in that same regard, whenever you sent things to the FBI or to cellmark, were they always in a sealed condition?

Yes.

Okay. Why don't we go through starting with the lowest numbers, and if you would describe how much of each item--if you can, I may need to--if you want, I direct you to a page number, what is the lowest number that you tested.

Your Honor, I would object to this recitation.