Re-redirect examination of Kato Kaelin

📄 Re-redirect examination of Kato Kaelin — Tuesday, March 28, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\28\RE-REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-KAT.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 46 of 167

◀ Motion: Fuhrman tape recordings Call next witness ▶

Witness: Brian "Kato" Kaelin
Examiner: Marcia Clark
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Tuesday, March 28, 1995 • Utterances: 401

Shapiro briefly recrossed Kaelin to establish that OJ and Nicole took multiple family vacations together during their attempted reconciliation, and that Kaelin had been offered close to a million dollars by tabloids but turned it down. Clark then counter-attacked aggressively, exposing Kaelin's financial entanglements: $60,000 already earned since June 12, two lawyers working on contingency or for free in anticipation of future earnings, and the full scope of OJ's generosity (free rent worth ~$6,000, estate access, celebrity connections) — all aimed at establishing Kaelin's motive to favor the defense. Shapiro closed by asking Kaelin point-blank whether any amount of money could make him lie, and Kaelin flatly said no.

# 1 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 2 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

# 3 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. PLEASE BE SEATED. LET THE RECORD REFLECT WE HAVE NOW BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL. GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

# 4 THE JURY:

GOOD MORNING.

BRIAN KATO KAELIN, THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE EVENING ADJOURNMENT, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:

# 5 THE COURT:

MR. BRIAN KAELIN IS STILL ON THE WITNESS STAND UNDERGOING RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO. GOOD MORNING, MR. KAELIN. YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH, SIR.

# 6 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

GOOD MORNING. YES, SIR.

# 7 THE COURT:

AND MR. SHAPIRO.

# 8 MR. SHAPIRO:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

# 9 THE COURT:

I THINK MR. KAELIN HAS A FULL CUP ALREADY.

# 10 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

THANKS.

# 11 THE COURT:

TWO.

# 12 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

GOSH, THANKS.

# 13 MR. SHAPIRO:

GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR. GOOD MORNING, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

# 14 THE JURY:

GOOD MORNING.

# 15

RECROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

# 16

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 17 Q:

GOOD MORNING, MR. KAELIN.

# 18 A:

GOOD MORNING.

# 19 Q:

I WANT TO JUST TAKE A FEW MOMENTS TO BRIEFLY REVIEW THE YEAR FROM MAY TO MAY OF '93 TO '94 AND TO GO OVER WITH YOU THE TIME THAT MR. SIMPSON SPENT WITH NICOLE AND HIS CHILDREN. ARE YOU AWARE DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME THAT ON THREE OCCASIONS THE FAMILY TRAVELED TOGETHER TO HAWAII?

# 20 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 21 THE COURT:

WHAT IS THE OBJECTION?

# 22 MS. CLARK:

RELEVANCE.

# 23 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 24 MS. CLARK:

HEARSAY.

# 25 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 26 MS. CLARK:

OUTSIDE THE SCOPE.

# 27 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION. ARE YOU AWARE OF THESE THREE TRIPS?

# 28 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

OF TRIPS? I DON'T KNOW. I THINK THEY WENT SOMEWHERE. ONE WAS HAWAII I'M PRETTY SURE. I DON'T KNOW IF ONE WAS MEXICO, BUT I KNOW OF VACATIONS.

# 29 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: FREQUENT VACATIONS, ESPECIALLY IN FEBRUARY AND MARCH OF '94?

# 30 A:

THE EXACT DATE, I DON'T KNOW, BUT I'M SURE THERE WERE VACATIONS PROBABLY. THEY SEEMED TO TRAVEL.

# 31 Q:

WERE THERE VACATIONS TO CABO SAN LUCAS?

# 32 A:

YES.

# 33 Q:

WAS THERE A VACATION TO MIAMI?

# 34 A:

YES.

# 35 Q:

AND YOU SAID THERE WAS AT LEAST ONE VACATION TO HAWAII?

# 36 A:

I BELIEVE SO.

# 37 Q:

AND THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN MORE THAT YOU ARE UNAWARE OF?

# 38 A:

YES.

# 39 Q:

AND ALSO DURING THIS PERIOD OF TIME, IF MR. SIMPSON WAS SPENDING FIVE NIGHTS A WEEK WITH NICOLE AND THE CHILDREN AT BUNDY, YOU WOULD NOT BE AWARE OF THAT, WOULD YOU?

# 40 A:

I WOULD NOT IF HE WAS THERE. I WOULD ASK, POSSIBLY IF IT WAS MICHELLE OR GIGI, IF O.J. WAS AROUND, SHE MIGHT HAVE SAID "HE IS OVER AT NICOLE'S."

# 41 Q:

AND WHEN YOU WERE TELLING US THAT ON OCCASIONS YOU WOULD ACTUALLY ONLY OBSERVE MR. SIMPSON WITH HIS CHILDREN FOR A SPECIFIC PERIOD OF TIME, EVEN DURING THOSE VISITS OR TIMES TOGETHER THERE WOULD BE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF TIME THAT YOU MAY NOT BE AWARE OF; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 42 A:

YES.

# 43 Q:

MR. KAELIN, HAS ANYONE FROM ANY TABLOIDS APPROACHED YOU TO SELL YOUR STORY?

# 44 A:

YES.

# 45 Q:

WHO HAS APPROACHED YOU?

# 46 A:

EVERYONE. EVERY TABLOID.

# 47 Q:

HOW MUCH MONEY HAVE YOU BEEN OFFERED?

# 48 A:

A LOT. UMM, CLOSE TO A MILLION, I GUESS.

KEY QUOTE

# 49 Q:

HAVE YOU ACCEPTED ANY MONEY FROM ANY TABLOIDS FOR YOUR STORY?

# 50 A:

NO.

# 51 Q:

HAVE YOU DISCUSSED THE MATTER OF SELLING YOUR STORY IN CONJUNCTION WITH GRANT CRAMER?

# 52 A:

OF SELLING IT?

# 53 Q:

SELLING IT OR MAKING IT AVAILABLE OR GETTING PAID FOR YOUR STORY WITH GRANT CRAMER TO A TABLOID?

# 54 A:

YEAH. I DIDN'T WANT TO SELL A STORY.

# 55 Q:

ISN'T IT TRUE THAT GRANT CRAMER TRIED TO ENCOURAGE YOU TO SELL THE STORY WITH HIM AND THAT IT WOULD BE WORTH MORE MONEY IF HE HAD YOU --

# 56 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, HEARSAY.

# 57 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: -- TOGETHER WITH HIM?

# 58 MS. CLARK:

HEARSAY.

# 59 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.

# 60 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

YES.

# 61 MR. SHAPIRO:

THANK YOU. NOTHING FURTHER.

# 62 THE COURT:

MISS CLARK.

# 63 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 64

BY MS. CLARK:

# 65 Q:

MR. KAELIN, YOU GOT A LOT OF MONEY FOR YOUR APPEARANCE ON CURRENT AFFAIR, DIDN'T YOU?

# 66 A:

YES.

# 67 Q:

AND AS A MATTER OF FACT, ISN'T IT TRUE, MR. KAELIN, THAT YOU HAVE A BOOK PROPOSAL OUT FOR ABOUT HALF A MILLION DOLLARS RIGHT NOW, DON'T YOU?

# 68 A:

NO.

# 69 Q:

YOU DON'T HAVE A BOOK PROPOSAL?

# 70 A:

NO.

# 71 Q:

AREN'T YOU REPRESENTED BY THE WILLIAM MORRIS AGENCY TO WRITE A BOOK?

# 72 A:

NO.

# 73 Q:

HAVEN'T YOU WRITTEN A BOOK PROPOSAL THAT HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO ST. MARTIN'S FOR PUBLICATION?

# 74 A:

NO.

# 75 Q:

YOU ARE NOT AWARE OF ANY CONTRACT FOR HALF A MILLION DOLLARS THAT YOU HAVE SIGNED?

# 76 A:

I KNOW IT IS OUT THERE, BUT I HAVEN'T DONE THAT.

# 77 Q:

YOU HAVEN'T SIGNED IT YET?

# 78 A:

OH, NO. I HEARD A STORY ABOUT THAT. THAT IS NOT TRUE.

# 79 Q:

YOU DON'T HAVE ANY BOOK PROPOSALS OUT?

# 80 A:

NO, I DON'T WANT TO DO A BOOK.

# 81 Q:

DO YOU PLAN TO WRITE A BOOK IN THE FUTURE, MR. KAELIN?

# 82 A:

AS OF TODAY, NO WAY.

# 83 Q:

BUT YOU MAY WELL DO THAT IN THE FUTURE, MIGHT YOU?

# 84 A:

IN THE FUTURE MAYBE.

# 85 Q:

UH-HUH.

# 86 A:

BUT RIGHT NOW, NO.

# 87 Q:

NOT RIGHT NOW. YOU ARE AWARE OF A LAW THAT PREVENTS YOU FROM DOING THAT FOR 90 DAYS?

# 88 A:

I KNOW THERE IS A LAW. I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE -- OF 90 DAYS OR WHATEVER IT IS, BUT I KNOW THERE IS A LAW ABOUT WRITING SOMETHING.

# 89 Q:

HOW MANY LAWYERS DO YOU HAVE RIGHT NOW, MR. KAELIN?

# 90 A:

TWO.

# 91 Q:

BEFORE JUNE 12 OF 1994 HOW MANY LAWYERS DID YOU HAVE, MR. KAELIN?

# 92 A:

ZERO.

# 93 Q:

HOW ARE YOU PAYING THEM, THESE TWO LAWYERS, MR. KAELIN?

# 94 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS PRIVILEGED MATERIAL.

# 95 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED, ALTHOUGH HE HAS COUNSEL HERE AND THAT OBJECTION WAS NOT RAISED BY HIM. I WILL ALLOW IT TO STAND AT THIS POINT.

# 96 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: HOW ARE YOU PAYING YOUR LAWYERS, MR. KAELIN?

# 97 A:

WITH MICHAEL PLOTKIN IT IS A PERCENTAGE OF WORK.

# 98 Q:

A PERCENTAGE OF WORK?

# 99 A:

IF WORK COMES HE WILL GET A PERCENTAGE OFF THAT.

# 100 Q:

SO HE IS REPRESENTING YOU RIGHT NOW ON THE "IF COME," AS THEY SAY? IF YOU MAKE MONEY, HE GETS A PERCENTAGE OF IT; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 101 A:

YES.

# 102 Q:

SOUNDS LIKE HE IS BETTING YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE QUITE A LOT OF MONEY, DOESN'T IT, MR. KAELIN?

KEY QUOTE

# 103 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION.

# 104 THE COURT:

IT IS ARGUMENTATIVE. SUSTAINED.

# 105 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND WHAT ABOUT YOUR OTHER LAWYER?

# 106 A:

BILL GENEGO?

# 107 Q:

UH-HUH.

# 108 A:

A GOOD FAITH, I GUESS.

# 109 Q:

I'M SORRY?

# 110 A:

GOOD FAITH.

# 111 Q:

GOOD FAITH?

# 112 A:

HE WAS -- THERE WAS A FEW LAWYERS THAT WERE COMING TO REPRESENT ME AND THEY KEPT COMING OVER AND I GOT IT FROM A FRIEND AND SAID BILL IS A FRIEND AND I SAID, "OKAY," SO I TOOK IT OUT OF MY FRIEND'S WORD THAT HE WAS A GOOD GUY.

# 113 Q:

AND HOW DO YOU PLAN TO PAY HIM?

# 114 A:

I DON'T THINK I AM GOING TO PAY HIM.

# 115 Q:

YOU DON'T THINK YOU ARE EVER GOING TO PAY HIM?

# 116 A:

I THINK EVENTUALLY, YES, I WILL OWE EVERYTHING.

# 117 Q:

OUT OF THE MONEY YOU PLAN TO MAKE YOU WILL PAY HIM; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 118 A:

SOMEHOW IF I MAKE IT. I CAN'T PREDICT WHAT WILL HAPPEN.

# 119 Q:

UH-HUH. AND HOW LONG HAS HE BEEN REPRESENTING YOU?

# 120 A:

THE DAY OF THE GRAND JURY.

# 121 Q:

SINCE JUNE THE 17TH?

# 122 A:

YES.

# 123 Q:

AND HAS HE BEEN PRESENT ON EVERY OCCASION WHEN YOU HAVE INTERVIEWED -- BEEN IN MY OFFICE FOR AN INTERVIEW?

# 124 A:

I THINK HE MISSED ONE; HE HAD SOMEONE ELSE SHOW UP.

# 125 Q:

HE HAD OTHER LAWYERS COME, DIDN'T HE?

# 126 A:

YES.

# 127 Q:

SO HE HAS BEEN PRESENT AT EVERY INTERVIEW OR SENT ON ONE OCCASION A LAWYER IN TO BE WITH YOU DURING YOUR INTERVIEWS WITH ME; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 128 A:

YES.

# 129 Q:

YOU HAVE NEVER SPOKEN TO ME ALONE WITHOUT A LAWYER REPRESENTING YOU, HAVE YOU, MR. KAELIN?

# 130 A:

CORRECT.

# 131 Q:

AND ON YOUR INTERVIEWS WITH MR. SHAPIRO HE HAS BEEN PRESENT DURING THOSE INTERVIEWS; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

# 132 A:

YES.

# 133 Q:

AND IN FACT ON SOME OCCASIONS HE HAS MET WITH MR. SHAPIRO WITHOUT YOU; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

# 134 A:

I WASN'T IN THE ROOM. I WAS IN THE BUILDING, BUT NOT IN THE ROOM TOGETHER.

# 135 Q:

HE HAS ENGAGED IN NUMEROUS TELEPHONE CALLS ON YOUR BEHALF, HAS HE NOT, MR. KAELIN?

# 136 A:

UMM, WILLIAM GENEGO?

# 137 Q:

YES.

# 138 A:

I BELIEVE SO.

# 139 Q:

IN OTHER WORDS, WOULD IT BE FAIR TO SAY THAT HE SPENT UPWARDS OF 100 TO 200 HOURS WORKING WITH YOU ON YOUR SITUATION?

# 140 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THAT CALLS FOR SPECULATION.

# 141 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.

# 142 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY HOURS. I DON'T THINK IT HAS BEEN THAT MANY HOURS.

# 143 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: SINCE JUNE THE 17TH?

# 144 A:

BUT WE DIDN'T MEET ALL THE TIME. IT WOULD BE HE WOULD CALL TO SEE IF WE ARE GOING TO HAVE AN APPOINTMENT AND MEET THE DAY BEFORE AND THEN GO SEE WHOEVER WE WERE GOING TO SEE.

# 145 Q:

WELL, YOU HAVE MET WITH HIM QUITE A FEW TIMES? MORE TIMES THAN YOU HAVE MET WITH EITHER MYSELF OR MR. SHAPIRO, HAVEN'T YOU?

# 146 A:

YES.

# 147 Q:

ARE YOU AWARE OF WHAT HIS HOURLY RATE IS?

# 148 A:

NO. BILL GENEGO'S? NO, NO IDEA.

# 149 Q:

AND YOU HAVEN'T PAID HIM ONE DIME YET, HAVE YOU, MR. KAELIN?

# 150 A:

NO, I HAVEN'T.

# 151 Q:

YOU HAVEN'T PAID MR. PLOTKIN ONE DIME YET, HAVE YOU?

# 152 A:

YES.

# 153 Q:

WHAT HAVE YOU PAID MR. PLOTKIN?

# 154 A:

WHATEVER THE PERCENTAGES ARE.

# 155 Q:

RIGHT, BUT YOU HAVE NOT PAID HIM ANY MONEY AS OF THIS DATE?

# 156 A:

YES. HE HAS RECEIVED MONEY.

# 157 Q:

AND HOW MUCH IS THAT?

# 158 A:

I DON'T KNOW. IT GOES FROM AN AGENT TO HIM.

# 159 Q:

AND WHAT IS THE PERCENTAGE?

# 160 A:

FIVE PERCENT.

# 161 Q:

HOW MUCH HAVE YOU MADE SO FOR SINCE JUNE THE 12TH?

# 162 A:

ABOUT SIXTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.

KEY QUOTE

# 163 Q:

SO FAR MR. PLOTKIN HAS RECEIVED FIVE PERCENT OF THAT?

# 164 A:

I BELIEVE SO.

# 165 Q:

AND HE WILL STAND TO RECEIVE FIVE PERCENT OF WHATEVER ELSE YOU PLAN TO DO, WHETHER IT IS A BOOK OR A MOVIE; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 166 A:

YES.

# 167 Q:

ALL OF WHICH MAY HAPPEN AFTER YOU COMPLETE YOUR TESTIMONY IN THIS CASE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

# 168 A:

IT COULD HAPPEN, YES.

# 169 Q:

BETWEEN MAY OF '93 AND MAY OF '94 HOW OFTEN DID YOU SEE PAULA BARBIERI AT THE ROCKINGHAM HOUSE?

# 170 A:

NOT VERY OFTEN.

# 171 Q:

BUT SHE WAS THERE?

# 172 A:

OH, SHE CAME BY, YES.

# 173 Q:

SHE SPENT THE NIGHT?

# 174 A:

YES.

# 175 Q:

AND ON HOW MANY OCCASIONS DO YOU REMEMBER SEEING HER SPEND THE NIGHT?

# 176 A:

WELL, I WOULD NEVER SEE HER SPEND THE NIGHT BECAUSE I COULDN'T SEE FROM WHERE I STAY, BUT IF SHE WAS THERE I WOULD SAY I WOULD PROBABLY KNOW IT OF ABOUT THREE TIMES IN THE HOUSE.

# 177 Q:

THAT IS JUST THE TIME THAT YOU KNOW ABOUT; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 178 A:

THAT I WOULD ASSUME THAT SHE WAS THERE THAT NIGHT.

# 179 Q:

THERE MIGHT BE TIMES SHE WAS THERE THAT YOU DON'T KNOW ABOUT; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 180 A:

CORRECT.

# 181 Q:

AND AS A MATTER OF FACT, ON JUNE THE 11TH THE DEFENDANT WENT OUT WITH PAULA TO AN EVENT, DIDN'T HE?

# 182 A:

YES.

# 183 Q:

AND AS A MATTER OF FACT, DURING THE EARLY MONTHS OF JANUARY -- OF 1994, HE WAS DATING PAULA BARBIERI, WASN'T HE?

# 184 A:

I BELIEVE SO.

# 185 Q:

AND DURING THE -- AT THE END OF THE YEAR OF 1993 HE WAS DATING PAULA BARBIERI, WASN'T HE?

# 186 A:

'93? I THINK. I THINK SO.

# 187 Q:

AND ARE YOU AWARE OF ANY -- HAVE YOU HEARD THE NAME TAWNY KITAEN?

# 188 A:

YES.

# 189 Q:

WASN'T THAT ANOTHER WOMAN THAT MR. SIMPSON WAS DATING IN THE NINETIES?

# 190 A:

I THINK THEY DATED. I DON'T KNOW. I WASN'T AROUND, BUT I THINK THEY HAD -- THEY DATED. I'M PRETTY SURE.

# 191 Q:

THAT WAS BETWEEN THE DATES OF '85 AND '94, WASN'T IT?

# 192 A:

OF '85 AND '94? YES.

# 193 Q:

ARE YOU AWARE OF WHEN MR. SIMPSON MARRIED NICOLE BROWN?

# 194 MR. SHAPIRO:

YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT. THIS IS BEYOND THE SCOPE.

# 195 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 196 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I DON'T KNOW THE DATE.

# 197 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WOULD IT REFRESH YOUR MEMORY IF I GAVE YOU A DATE?

# 198 A:

IN THE EIGHTIES I THINK.

# 199 Q:

AROUND '85?

# 200 A:

I THINK SO.

# 201 Q:

SOUND RIGHT?

# 202 A:

YES.

# 203 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 204 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: NOW, YOU INDICATED TO MR. SHAPIRO THAT BETWEEN MAY OF '93 AND MAY OF '94 NICOLE AND MR. SIMPSON WERE ATTEMPTING TO RECONCILE?

# 205 A:

AT SOME POINT.

# 206 Q:

BACK AND FORTH DURING THAT WHOLE YEAR; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

# 207 A:

IT WAS LIKE A COMMITMENT. THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME WHILE O.J. WAS IN TOWN. I DON'T KNOW THE DATES, BUT I THINK IT HAD TO DO WITH FOOTBALL SEASON, LEAVING FOR THAT, TO SEE IF THEY WERE GOING TO MAKE IT. I THINK IT WAS TO LAST UNTIL AUGUST OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, WHENEVER FOOTBALL SEASON WOULD START IN NEW YORK.

# 208 Q:

SO THERE WAS -- WHAT WAS IT, A PROMISE THAT NICOLE MADE TO ACT LIKE HIS WIFE UNTIL AUGUST OF '94?

# 209 MR. SHAPIRO:

I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THE FORM OF THAT QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 210 THE COURT:

TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION?

# 211 MR. SHAPIRO:

WELL, IT IS AN ARGUMENTATIVE QUESTION.

# 212 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 213 MR. SHAPIRO:

HEARSAY.

# 214 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 215 MR. SHAPIRO:

CALLS FOR SPECULATION.

# 216 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 217 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

THAT THEY WERE GOING TO TRY TO MAKE IT WORK AS A COUPLE.

# 218 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: NO, THAT WASN'T MAY QUESTION.

# 219 A:

SAY IT AGAIN.

# 220 Q:

WAS THERE AN AGREEMENT THAT NICOLE WOULD BEHAVE AS THOUGH SHE WERE STILL MR. SIMPSON'S WIFE UNTIL AUGUST OF '94 WHEN FOOTBALL SEASON WOULD START?

# 221 MR. SHAPIRO:

I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO THE FORM -- TO THE QUESTION AS BEING VAGUE "BEHAVE AS IF." I DON'T KNOW IF THERE IS THAT TYPE BEHAVIOR.

# 222 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION, SIR?

# 223 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

THAT THEY WERE TOGETHER, THERE WAS GOING TO BE A COMMITMENT TO BE TOGETHER, YES --

# 224 MS. CLARK:

NO.

# 225 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 226 MR. SHAPIRO:

YOUR HONOR, MAY HE FINISH HIS ANSWER?

# 227 THE COURT:

WAIT, WAIT, WAIT.

# 228 MS. CLARK:

LET ME ASK --

# 229 THE COURT:

WHEN I SAY "WAIT," EVERYBODY STOPS TALKING, EXCEPT FOR ME. UNDERSTOOD?

# 230 MR. SHAPIRO:

YES, YOUR HONOR.

# 231 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. OBVIOUSLY THE QUESTION NEEDS TO BE REPHRASED.

# 232 MS. CLARK:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 233 THE COURT:

PROCEED.

# 234 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WAS THERE AN AGREEMENT THAT NICOLE MADE WITH MR. SIMPSON NOT TO SEE ANOTHER MAN UNTIL AUGUST OF '94 WHEN HE WOULD LEAVE FOR THE FOOTBALL SEASON?

# 235 A:

I THINK THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING LIKE THAT, TO MAKE IT WORK, SO I THINK THEY HAD AN AGREEMENT -- IT WAS LIKE NO DATING, THEY WERE GOING TO STAY TOGETHER.

# 236 Q:

DO YOU KNOW WHAT -- I'M SORRY.

# 237 A:

LIKE THAT, BUT I DON'T KNOW THE DATES. I THINK IT WAS THAT TIME FOR FOOTBALL SEASON, BEFORE.

# 238 Q:

DO YOU KNOW WHETHER IT WAS FOR THE PURPOSE OF MR. SIMPSON'S IMAGE OR THE PURPOSE OF THEIR RELATIONSHIP?

# 239 MR. SHAPIRO:

YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT. THAT IS SPECULATION.

# 240 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 241 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: BUT DURING THAT TIME PERIOD -- DURING THE PERIOD OF 1994 HE WAS DATING PAULA BARBIERI?

# 242 A:

YEAH. I THINK THEY DATED, YES.

# 243 Q:

IN JANUARY WASN'T HE DATING PAULA BARBIERI?

# 244 A:

I THINK SO.

# 245 Q:

DON'T YOU RECALL A TRIP WITH HER TO HAWAII BETWEEN '93 AND '94?

# 246 A:

I DON'T KNOW. IF THEY WENT, THEY WENT. I DIDN'T KNOW IF THEY GO ON TRIPS, BUT THEY PROBABLY DID. I DON'T KNOW.

# 247 Q:

AND AS A MATTER OF FACT, DO YOU RECALL THAT THERE WAS A TRIP THAT HE TOOK TO PALM SPRINGS WITH PAULA BARBIERI IN JUNE OF 1994?

# 248 A:

I THINK -- THERE IS A TRIP. I THINK IT WAS MEMORIAL DAY.

# 249 Q:

MEMORIAL DAY?

# 250 A:

YES. I THINK IT WAS TO PALM SPRINGS THEN.

# 251 Q:

THAT WAS THE DEFENDANT AND PAULA BARBIERI TOOK THAT TRIP TOGETHER TO PALM SPRINGS, DIDN'T THEY?

# 252 A:

I BELIEVE SO.

# 253 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU STATED ON CROSS-EXAMINATION THAT YOU REALLY LIKED BOTH NICOLE AND THE DEFENDANT. DO YOU RECALL STATING THAT?

# 254 A:

YES.

# 255 Q:

BUT NICOLE DID NOT GIVE YOU A PLACE TO STAY FOR FREE, DID SHE?

# 256 A:

NO.

# 257 Q:

AND YOU TOLD MR. SHAPIRO THAT EVEN THOUGH THE DEFENDANT LET YOU STAY IN THE GUEST UNIT FOR FREE, YOU FELT NO OBLIGATION TO HIM. DO YOU RECALL SAYING THAT?

# 258 A:

THAT ALTHOUGH I STAYED THERE FREE I FELT NO OBLIGATION TO HIM?

# 259 Q:

YES. DO YOU RECALL SAYING THAT?

# 260 A:

I GUESS, YES.

# 261 Q:

NOW, IN MR. SIMPSON'S -- ON MR. SIMPSON'S ESTATE YOU HAD A ROOM WITH ITS OWN BATHROOM; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 262 A:

YES, I DID.

# 263 Q:

IT HAD ITS OWN OFFICE?

# 264 A:

YES.

# 265 Q:

YOU HAD ACCESS TO A JACUZZI?

# 266 MR. SHAPIRO:

YOUR HONOR --

# 267 THE COURT:

MR. SHAPIRO.

# 268 MR. SHAPIRO:

-- OBJECTION. THIS HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED SEVERAL TIMES.

# 269 THE COURT:

I ASSUME THIS IS FOUNDATIONAL FOR SOMETHING ELSE.

# 270 MS. CLARK:

FOUNDATIONAL. OVERRULED.

# 271 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

YES.

# 272 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: YOU HAD ACCESS TO A JACUZZI?

# 273 A:

YES.

# 274 Q:

YOU HAD ACCESS TO A SWIMMING POOL?

# 275 A:

YES.

# 276 Q:

YOU HAD ACCESS TO THE KITCHEN AREA AND THE POOL HOUSE?

# 277 A:

YES.

# 278 Q:

NOW, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE PAID TO LIVE IN A PLACE LIKE THAT, MR. KAELIN?

# 279 A:

I PROBABLY WOULDN'T HAVE LIVED THERE IF THERE WAS A PRICE ON IT.

# 280 Q:

IF YOU COULD HAVE AFFORDED TO PAY FOR IT, SIR, WHAT DO YOU THINK WOULD YOU HAVE PAID FOR SOMETHING LIKE THAT? A THOUSAND, 1500 A MONTH, SOMETHING LIKE THAT?

# 281 A:

OH, IN THAT AREA.

# 282 Q:

IN THAT AREA?

# 283 A:

YES.

# 284 Q:

YOU STAYED THERE FOR AT LEAST SIX MONTHS?

# 285 A:

YES.

# 286 Q:

YOU SAVED AT LEAST $6,000 STAYING THERE RENT FREE; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 287 A:

YES.

# 288 Q:

SO THE DEFENDANT SAVED YOU AT LEAST $6,000 BY LETTING YOU STAY THERE WITHOUT PAYING ANY RENT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

# 289 A:

YES.

# 290 Q:

AND HE GOT YOU AN ACTING PART, DIDN'T HE?

# 291 A:

NO.

# 292 Q:

DIDN'T YOU TELL US ABOUT THE KUSHNER-LOCKE?

# 293 A:

I HAD THE AUDITION THROUGH AN AGENT.

# 294 Q:

HE MADE A PHONE CALL TO HELP YOU, DIDN'T HE?

# 295 A:

HE MENTIONED TO HIM THAT I KNEW SOMEONE AND I DIDN'T KNOW AT THE TIME AND HE SAID HE WAS ON THE BOARD THERE AND HE SAID, "I WILL MAKE A CALL."

# 296 Q:

SO HE HELPED YOU?

# 297 A:

NO. I HAD THE READING -- I DIDN'T GET THE PART.

# 298 Q:

HE TRIED TO HELP YOU?

# 299 A:

YES, HE DID.

# 300 Q:

ALL RIGHT. SAVED YOU $6,000 IN RENT?

# 301 A:

YES.

# 302 Q:

YOU STAYED ON THAT BEAUTIFUL ESTATE, YES?

# 303 A:

YES.

# 304 Q:

YOU HAD ACCESS TO A FAMOUS CELEBRITY?

# 305 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

# 306 Q:

YES?

# 307 A:

YES.

# 308 Q:

WHEN YOU WENT OUT TO SEE YOUR FRIENDS YOU COULD TELL THEM THAT YOU WERE LIVING ON MR. SIMPSON'S ESTATE, COULDN'T YOU?

# 309 A:

I COULD, BUT I DIDN'T DO THAT.

# 310 Q:

YOU DIDN'T DO THAT, MR. KAELIN? YOU NEVER TOLD ANYONE YOU LIVED ON MR. SIMPSON'S ESTATE?

# 311 A:

WELL, SOME PEOPLE KNEW, CLOSE FRIENDS, BUT IT WASN'T --

# 312 Q:

WITH ALL OF THAT YOU DON'T FEEL OBLIGATED TO HIM; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 313 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)

# 314 Q:

YOU DON'T FEEL OBLIGATED TO HIM? IS THAT YOUR TESTIMONY?

# 315 A:

UMM, CAN YOU EXPLAIN "OBLIGATED"?

# 316 Q:

DID YOU NEED MR. SHAPIRO TO EXPLAIN IT TO YOU, SIR?

# 317 MR. SHAPIRO:

I'M GOING TO OBJECT, YOUR HONOR. THAT IS --

# 318 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. THAT IS ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 319 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT YOU DO NOT FEEL OBLIGATED TO MR. SIMPSON WITH ALL THAT I HAVE -- WE HAVE JUST MENTIONED? IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?

# 320 A:

SOMEWHAT, YES, THAT I --

# 321 Q:

ON JUNE THE 12TH YOU STATED THAT YOU WERE IN THE HOUSE AND YOU SPOKE TO MR. SIMPSON AT ABOUT 3:00 P.M.; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 322 A:

YES.

# 323 Q:

HOW DID YOU HAPPEN TO GO INTO THE HOUSE AT THAT TIME?

# 324 A:

I THINK AT THAT TIME I WALKED BY AND HE SAID MY NAME OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

# 325 Q:

HE INVITED YOU IN?

# 326 A:

YES.

# 327 Q:

YOU WOULD NOT GO IN WITHOUT BEING INVITED; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 328 A:

YES.

# 329 Q:

SO YOU WERE INVITED IN BY MR. SIMPSON AT THREE O'CLOCK IN THE AFTERNOON ON JUNE THE 12TH; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 330 A:

YES.

# 331 Q:

YOU WERE INVITED IN AGAIN BY HIM AT ABOUT 6:00 OR 6:30 AFTER THE RECITAL; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?

# 332 A:

YES.

# 333 Q:

AND AGAIN AT 9:00 P.M., WHEN HE WANTED TO GO OUT TO DINNER, YOU WERE WITH HIM AGAIN AND WALKED THROUGH THE HOUSE; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 334 A:

YES.

# 335 Q:

AND THEN AGAIN AT 11:00 P.M., WHEN HE WAS GETTING READY TO LEAVE FOR THE LIMO, YOU WERE IN THE HOUSE AGAIN WITH HIM AT THAT TIME, WERE YOU NOT?

# 336 A:

YES, I WAS.

# 337 Q:

SO ON JUNE THE 12TH YOU WERE IN THE HOUSE WITH MR. SIMPSON AT 3:00, AT 6:00, AT 9:00 AND AT 11:00 P.M.; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 338 A:

NO, NOT AT 9:00.

# 339 Q:

YOU WALKED THROUGH THE HOUSE?

# 340 A:

YES.

# 341 Q:

ISN'T THAT RIGHT?

# 342 A:

YES.

# 343 Q:

YOU WERE WITH HIM ON ALL FOUR OCCASIONS; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 344 A:

YES.

# 345 Q:

OTHER THAN JUNE THE 12TH OF 1994, DID YOU EVER SPEND THAT MUCH TIME WITH MR. SIMPSON OR GO INTO HIS HOUSE ON THOSE -- THAT MANY OCCASIONS?

# 346 A:

NO.

# 347

MS. CLARK: THANK YOU. I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE DEFENDANT.)

# 348 THE COURT:

MR. SHAPIRO.

# 349 MR. SHAPIRO:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HONOR.

FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION

# 350

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 351 Q:

MR. KAELIN, REGARDING THE AMOUNT OF TIME YOU HAVE SPENT WITH MR. SIMPSON, HAVE YOU BEEN IN THE HOUSE FOR ANY PROLONGED PERIOD OF TIME PRIOR TO JUNE THE 12TH?

# 352 A:

YES.

# 353 Q:

FOR WHAT PURPOSE?

# 354 A:

I WATCHED A FOOTBALL GAME --

# 355 Q:

HOW LONG DID YOU WATCH A FOOT BALLGAME FOR?

# 356 A:

THREE, FOUR HOURS.

# 357 Q:

WHAT ELSE HAVE YOU DONE IN THE HOUSE?

# 358 A:

WATCHED A MOVIE, HAD CHRISTMAS, BREAKFAST SOMETIMES.

# 359 Q:

YOU WOULD SAY THAT MR. SIMPSON TREATED YOU IN A VERY KIND AND NICE WAY?

# 360 A:

YES.

# 361 MS. CLARK:

YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION. THAT IS IRRELEVANT AND IT IS ASKED AND ANSWERED.

# 362 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. IT IS INNOCUOUS.

# 363 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND ON THIS OCCASION, AS FAR AS GOING TO MC DONALD'S, I BELIEVE YOU TOLD US THAT YOU INVITED YOURSELF TO GO WITH HIM?

# 364 A:

YES.

# 365 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, ASKED AND ANSWERED.

# 366 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 367 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

YES.

# 368 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND REGARDING ACCESS TO THE LIVING QUARTERS OF MR. SIMPSON, THAT WASN'T A PLACE THAT YOU HAD FREE ACCESS TO, WAS IT?

# 369 A:

SAY IT AGAIN.

# 370 Q:

THE LIVING QUARTERS OF MR. SIMPSON, HIS KITCHEN, HIS DINING ROOM, HIS DEN, WAS THAT A PLACE THAT YOU HAD FREE ACCESS TO OR NOT?

# 371 A:

NO, I WOULDN'T GO IN WITHOUT BEING INVITED.

# 372 Q:

REGARDING THE JACUZZI, HOW MANY TIMES WERE YOU IN THE JACUZZI?

# 373 A:

ONCE.

# 374 Q:

WOULD YOU SAY YOU DID NOT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE GENEROSITY OF MR. SIMPSON IN ALLOWING YOU TO STAY IN THE GUEST HOUSE TEMPORARILY?

# 375 A:

I DID NOT.

# 376 Q:

REGARDING DATES, ARE YOU PRECISE AS TO DATES OF TIMES MR. SIMPSON SPENT WITH PAULA BARBIERI?

# 377 A:

NO. I THINK MEMORIAL DAY WAS THE ONE IN PALM SPRINGS, IF I REMEMBER. I'M KIND OF SURE ON THAT ONE. THE EXACT DATES, NO.

# 378 Q:

WOULD IT BE A FAIR STATEMENT TO SAY THAT YOU NEVER SAW MR. O.J. SIMPSON WITH PAULA BARBIERI PRIOR TO MAY OF 1994?

# 379 A:

I MIGHT HAVE ONCE, BUT I SAW -- I THINK I FIRST SAW PAULA, LIKE I KNEW ABOUT HER, BUT FIRST MET HER IN APRIL OR MAY, BUT I THINK MAYBE MAY. I'M NOT POSITIVE.

# 380 Q:

OF '94?

# 381 A:

OF '94.

# 382 Q:

AND YOU KNEW THAT O.J. SIMPSON WAS GETTING BACK TOGETHER WITH HER, THAT THEY HAD DATED SOMETIME PRIOR?

# 383 A:

THEY -- THAT HE KNEW HER FROM BEFORE THEY DATED?

# 384 Q:

YES.

# 385 A:

YES.

# 386 Q:

REGARDING THE ISSUE OF YOU GETTING TO HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF STAYING AS MR. SIMPSON'S GUEST, IT HAS BEEN POINTED OUT BY THE PROSECUTOR THAT THAT MAY HAVE HAD A VALUE OF $6,000. IT MAY HAVE HAD A VALUE GREATER THAN THAT, MIGHT IT NOT?

# 387 A:

YES.

# 388 Q:

REGARDLESS OF THE VALUE, WOULD THAT BE ENOUGH TO GET YOU TO LIE IN THIS CASE, SIR?

# 389 A:

I WILL NOT LIE.

# 390 Q:

FOR ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY?

# 391 A:

FOR ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY.

KEY QUOTE

# 392 MR. SHAPIRO:

THANK YOU. NOTHING FURTHER.

# 393 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 394 MS. CLARK:

I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER, YOUR HONOR.

# 395 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. MR. KAELIN, I'M GOING TO EXCUSE YOU AT THIS TIME; HOWEVER, YOU ARE SUBJECT TO RECALL. I'M GOING TO ORDER YOU NOT TO DISCUSS YOUR TESTIMONY WITH ANYBODY EXCEPT FOR THE LAWYERS IN THE CASE AND YOUR OWN ATTORNEY. AND YOU WILL BE REQUIRED TO COME BACK TO COURT WITHIN 48 HOURS OF BEING NOTIFIED BY THE COURT. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE ORDER, SIR?

# 396 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I WILL COME BACK.

# 397 THE COURT:

WE MAY NEED YOU BACK, I DON'T KNOW YET, BUT YOU ARE STILL SUBJECT TO RECALL.

# 398 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

OKAY.

# 399 THE COURT:

DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY ORDER, SIR?

# 400 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

YES, SIR.

# 401 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. YOU ARE EXCUSED FOR TODAY. THE PEOPLE'S NEXT WITNESS.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Kato Kaelin

CLOSE TO A MILLION, I GUESS.

Establishes the staggering tabloid interest in Kaelin and frames the financial-motive argument both sides were building.

Kato Kaelin

ABOUT SIXTY THOUSAND DOLLARS.

Clark's coup — Kaelin admits he has already made $60K off the case, with lawyers taking a percentage of future earnings, directly undermining any claim he has no financial stake in the outcome.

Kato Kaelin

I WILL NOT LIE... FOR ANY AMOUNT OF MONEY.

Shapiro's clean closing rehabilitation, letting Kaelin directly rebut Clark's entire financial-motive attack.

Marcia Clark

SOUNDS LIKE HE IS BETTING YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE QUITE A LOT OF MONEY, DOESN'T IT, MR. KAELIN?

Clark's sharpest line — characterizing Kaelin's contingency-fee lawyer arrangement as a sign that everyone expects Kato to cash in, implying testimony-for-profit. Sustained as argumentative, but the jury heard it.

Kato Kaelin

UMM, CAN YOU EXPLAIN 'OBLIGATED'?

Kaelin's evasion on whether he felt obligated to OJ prompted Clark's cutting response asking if he needed Shapiro to explain it — a rare moment where Kaelin's foggy-witness persona visibly annoyed Clark.

Evidence (2)

Informal

A Current Affair payment to Kaelin — referenced to establish he has already profited from the case

discussed

Informal

Kushner-Locke acting audition that OJ made a call to facilitate

discussed

Notable Exchanges (4)

Marcia Clark•Kato Kaelin

Clark methodically itemized every financial benefit Kaelin received from OJ — $6K in free rent, Jacuzzi, pool, kitchen, celebrity access, acting help — then asked how he could claim to feel no obligation. Kaelin struggled to answer, eventually asking Clark to define 'obligated,' prompting Clark to suggest he ask Shapiro to explain it (sustained as argumentative).

heated

Marcia Clark•Kato Kaelin

Clark revealed Kaelin has two lawyers: one (Plotkin) on a 5% contingency of all future earnings, one (Genego) working for free in expectation of future payment. Kaelin confirmed he's already made $60K and hasn't paid Genego a dime. Clark used this to argue Kaelin's lawyers are invested in his future marketability — which depends on the trial's outcome.

strategic

Robert Shapiro•Lance A. Ito•Marcia Clark

When Clark tried to establish that Nicole had agreed to 'behave as though she were still Mr. Simpson's wife' until football season, Shapiro objected on three grounds in rapid succession (form, hearsay, speculation), all overruled. The question had to be rephrased after Kaelin's answer was interrupted, and Judge Ito had to firmly silence everyone: 'WHEN I SAY WAIT, EVERYBODY STOPS TALKING, EXCEPT FOR ME.'

heated

Robert Shapiro•Kato Kaelin

Shapiro closed recross by asking whether Kaelin would lie for $6,000 or any amount of money. Kaelin gave an unambiguous denial, providing the defense a clean final image of the witness after Clark's financial-motive assault.

strategic

Light Moments (2)

Lance A. Ito

Judge Ito noticed Kaelin already had a full cup of something at the start of the morning session and offered him another anyway, prompting 'GOSH, THANKS' from Kaelin — a rare warm moment before Clark's cross resumed.

Kato Kaelin

Kaelin's answer 'AS OF TODAY, NO WAY' when asked if he planned to write a book — followed immediately by admitting he 'maybe' would in the future — landed as unintentional comedy.

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Kato Kaelin

bias / financial interest

Clark established that Kaelin has earned $60K since June 12, has a lawyer (Plotkin) on 5% contingency of all future earnings, has another lawyer (Genego) working for free in anticipation of Kaelin's future wealth, and received at least $6,000 in free rent plus estate privileges from OJ — all pointing to financial reasons to favor the defense narrative.

⚔ Kato Kaelin

prior inconsistent statement / implausible denial

Clark suggested Kaelin had a book proposal worth ~$500K submitted to St. Martin's Press through William Morris Agency. Kaelin denied it, but his hedge ('I know it is out there, but I haven't done that') undercut his flat denial.

⚔ Kato Kaelin

rehabilitation / counter-attack

Shapiro rehabilitated by getting Kaelin to affirm he used the Jacuzzi only once, didn't have free access to OJ's living quarters, invited himself to McDonald's, and would not lie for any amount of money.

Witness Demeanor

Kaelin was evasive and vague throughout Clark's cross, frequently hedging with 'I think,' 'I believe,' and 'I don't know.'

Noticeably flustered when Clark pressed him on feeling 'obligated' to OJ — asked her to define the word.

Composed and direct on the final question about lying for money — one of his clearest answers in the entire examination.

Objections

16 objections (3 sustained, 13 overruled)

Proceeding 5450 • 401 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103