Recross-examination of Brian Kato Kaelin

📄 Recross-examination of Brian Kato Kaelin — Monday, March 27, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\27\RECROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-BRIAN-K.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 45 of 167

◀ Redirect examination of Brian Kato Kaelin (part 5) Sidebar: witness examination ▶

Witness: Brian "Kato" Kaelin
Examiner: Robert Shapiro
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Monday, March 27, 1995 • Utterances: 256

Robert Shapiro conducted recross of Kato Kaelin, focusing on rehabilitating OJ Simpson's image and dismantling the prosecution's portrait of a man consumed by jealousy and rage. Shapiro established that Simpson showed no hostility or anger when discussing Nicole, that Kato never monitored Simpson's movements so cannot account for his whereabouts between 9:45 and 11pm, and that Simpson never asked Kaelin to lie or create an alibi. Clark objected relentlessly throughout, winning several rulings on hearsay and speculation but losing many on leading questions.

# 1 THE COURT:

MR. SHAPIRO.

# 2 MR. SHAPIRO:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HONOR.

# 3 THE COURT REPORTER:

YOUR HONOR, I NEED TO CHANGE PAPER.

# 4 THE COURT:

HOLD ON JUST A SECOND. THE COURT REPORTER NEEDS TO CHANGE PAPER.

# 5 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 6 MR. SHAPIRO:

THANK YOU. GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

# 7

RECROSS-EXAMINATION

# 8

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 9 Q:

GOOD AFTERNOON, MR. KAELIN.

# 10 A:

GOOD AFTERNOON.

# 11 Q:

HAS THE QUESTIONS THAT HAVE JUST BEEN PUT TO YOU MADE YOU NERVOUS AT ALL?

# 12 A:

YES.

# 13 Q:

ARE YOU AFRAID OF MISS CLARK?

# 14 A:

NOT AFRAID OF HER, NO.

# 15 Q:

DOES SHE SCARE YOU?

# 16 A:

NO. I MEAN --

# 17 Q:

DOES SHE MAKE YOU UNCOMFORTABLE?

# 18 A:

WELL, CERTAIN QUESTIONS, YES.

# 19 Q:

WHY IS THAT?

# 20 A:

BECAUSE I'M TRYING TO DO MY BEST.

# 21 Q:

AND DO YOU THINK SHE'S GIVEN YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO YOUR BEST AND TO BE FAIR?

# 22 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 23 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 24 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DOES SHE INTIMIDATE YOU AT ALL?

# 25 A:

YES.

# 26 Q:

HOW'S THAT?

# 27 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 28 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 29 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

BY HER JOB.

# 30 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: ARE YOU HERE TO TELL THE TRUTH?

# 31 A:

YES.

# 32 Q:

ARE YOU DOING YOUR BEST TO TELL THE TRUTH?

# 33 A:

YES.

# 34 Q:

WOULD YOU SAY THAT IN TRYING TO DESCRIBE CERTAIN EVENTS, THAT SOMETIMES JUST USING WORDS ISN'T ENOUGH?

# 35 A:

YES.

# 36 Q:

FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN MISS CLARK WAS TRYING TO GET YOU TO SAY THAT --

# 37 THE COURT:

COUNSEL, WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE THAT QUESTION.

# 38 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHEN MISS CLARK WAS ASKING YOU QUESTIONS REGARDING WHETHER OR NOT O.J. SIMPSON WAS UPSET ON JUNE THE 12TH WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO HIM AFTER THE RECITAL, WOULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT YOU WOULD MEAN WHEN YOU WERE SAYING SOMEBODY IS UPSET?

# 39 A:

MY DESCRIPTION OF WHAT UPSET IS?

# 40 Q:

YES. AND WHAT -- AND WHAT YOU WERE VIEWING O.J. SIMPSON AS -- BEHAVIOR ON THAT DAY SO THE JURY CAN UNDERSTAND HOW YOU WERE FEELING AND HOW HE WAS FEELING AND WHAT THIS CONVERSATION WAS REALLY ABOUT.

# 41 A:

OKAY. OKAY. SO START WITH THE SIDNEY?

# 42 Q:

YES.

# 43 A:

WELL, "NICOLE DIDN'T LET ME SEE SIDNEY. I WANT TO SEE MY DAUGHTER. I WANT TO SEE HER." AND, UH, "OH, BOY," KIND OF LIKE, "I WANT TO SEE MY DAUGHTER," AND THEN, UH, "THEY'RE WEARING THESE TIGHT OUTFITS THAT THESE -- I DON'T KNOW, KATO. I DON'T KNOW HOW THEY CAN WEAR THESE TIGHT OUTFITS. THAT'S -- THEY'RE GOING TO BE GRANDMAS ONE DAY. I MEAN CAN THEY WEAR THOSE?"

KEY QUOTE

# 44 Q:

WAS THAT THE TONE OF VOICE?

# 45 A:

CAN -- ACTOR, SO -- THEY -- MORE OF A -- NO. IT WAS -- IT WAS SORT OF, "THEY CAN'T BE WEARING THOSE TIGHT OUTFITS." UH, BUT IT WAS -- A DEGREE OF UPSET, IT'S SUCH A HARD THING TO -- I -- BEING UPSET, UH, IT WASN'T THROWING THINGS. IT WASN'T, "SHE'S WEARING THAT MINISKIRT." IT WASN'T LIKE THAT. IT'S A TOUGH QUESTION. IT'S, "WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO WHEN THEY'RE WEARING -- WHEN THEY'RE GOING TO BE GRANDMAS? THEY CAN'T WEAR MINISKIRTS."

# 46 Q:

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION?

# 47 A:

I LISTENED, KIND OF LIKE THAT.

# 48 Q:

YOU DIDN'T FIND THE TONE THREATENING, DID YOU?

# 49 A:

NO.

# 50 Q:

I MEAN, YOU'VE SAID THIS IN -- IN KIND OF A MATTER OF FACT WAY, BUT WITH -- WITH A LITTLE OF -- A LITTLE EMOTION. IS THAT THE WAY YOU WOULD DESCRIBE O.J. SIMPSON?

# 51 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. LEADING.

# 52 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 53 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

YES. IT WAS A LITTLE -- THERE WAS SOME EMOTION IN THE VOICE.

# 54 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHAT ABOUT BODY LANGUAGE? DID YOU SEE ANY HOSTILITY? DID YOU SEE ANY PENT-UP ANGER COME THROUGH?

# 55 A:

I'M PRETTY SURE HE WAS SITTING DOWN. SO I DIDN'T.

# 56 Q:

NOW, YOU KNEW THAT FROM MAY OF 1993 TO MAY OF 1994, NICOLE WAS TRYING TO GET BACK INTO A FORMAL RELATIONSHIP WITH O.J.

# 57 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. HEARSAY, ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.

# 58 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 59 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

COULD YOU GIVE ME THOSE DATES AGAIN? I'M SORRY.

# 60 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: FROM MAY OF 1993, WHEN YOU WERE AT GRETNA GREEN, TO MAY OF 1994, YOU KNEW THAT NICOLE WAS TRYING TO GET BACK TOGETHER WITH O.J.

# 61 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. OBJECTION.

# 62 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 63 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

IT WAS -- I THINK IT WAS A TEAM THING. THEY BOTH WERE GOING OFF AND ON. I DON'T THINK IT WAS ONE OR THE OTHER. IT WAS BOTH WORKING TOGETHER OR HOWEVER IT WAS -- HOWEVER IT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN. I MEAN, MAYBE SHE WAS TRYING TO MAKE IT WORK AND HE WASN'T AND -- IT WAS OFF AND ON. I CAN'T --

# 64 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND YOU KNEW THAT O.J. HAD COMMITTED TO NICOLE THAT THEY WOULD GIVE IT A YEAR TO TRY TO WORK OUT THINGS AND SEE IF THEY CAN GET BACK TOGETHER AS A FAMILY, DIDN'T YOU?

# 65 A:

THERE WAS SOME KIND OF COMMITMENT, YES.

# 66 Q:

AND YOU KNEW IN EARLY MAY --

# 67 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. THIS IS SPECULATION.

# 68 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 69 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: -- THAT O.J. HAD CONCLUDED THAT IT JUST WASN'T GOING TO WORK; IT WAS UNFORTUNATE, BUT THEY WERE BOTH GOING TO HAVE TO LEAD THEIR OWN LIVES SEPARATELY?

# 70 A:

YES.

# 71 Q:

AND YOU ALSO KNEW THAT PAULA BARBIERI HAD COME BACK INTO HIS LIFE IN MAY; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 72 A:

YES. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS END OF APRIL OR MAY, BUT YES, THEY GOT BACK TOGETHER.

# 73 Q:

AND WAS IT YOUR PERSONAL FEELING THAT YOU WOULD HAVE LIKED TO HAVE SEEN O.J. AND NICOLE GET BACK TOGETHER?

# 74 A:

YES.

# 75 Q:

WHY IS THAT?

# 76 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. IRRELEVANT.

# 77 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 78 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I JUST WANTED THEM TO BE HAPPY IF THEY WERE GOING TO BE HAPPY.

# 79 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: BECAUSE YOU REALLY LIKED BOTH PEOPLE?

# 80 A:

YES.

# 81 Q:

YOU REALLY LIKE THE KIDS?

# 82 A:

YES.

# 83 Q:

AND YOU WOULD REALLY HAVE LIKED TO HAVE SEEN THIS FAMILY GET BACK TOGETHER?

# 84 A:

YES.

# 85 Q:

WHEN O.J. TOLD YOU THAT IT JUST WASN'T GOING TO WORK, HE HAD NO ANGER, DID HE?

# 86 A:

NO.

# 87 Q:

HE HAD NO HOSTILITY?

# 88 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. LEADING.

# 89 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 90 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: HE HAD NO HOSTILITY, DID HE?

# 91 A:

NO.

# 92 Q:

IT WAS JUST A MATTER OF FACT THING, "KATO, YOU KNOW, IT JUST DIDN'T WORK OUT"?

# 93 A:

YES.

# 94 Q:

AND -- BUT HE ALWAYS TOLD YOU THAT HE STILL WANTED TO HAVE A FAMILY --

# 95 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION.

# 96 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: -- AND BE PART OF A FAMILY LIFE --

# 97 THE COURT:

WHAT'S THE OBJECTION, COUNSEL?

# 98 MS. CLARK:

HEARSAY.

# 99 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 100 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: HE TOLD YOU HE WANTED TO --

# 101 THE COURT:

WAIT A MINUTE. WAIT A MINUTE. I'M GOING TO SUSTAIN THAT OBJECTION.

# 102 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: NOW, YOU'RE A FATHER OF A NINE-YEAR OLD DAUGHTER.

# 103 A:

10 NOW.

# 104 Q:

10-YEAR OLD DAUGHTER. AND DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE EXPERIENCE IN BEING A FATHER?

# 105 A:

YES.

# 106 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. IRRELEVANT.

# 107 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 108 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND DO YOU THINK YOU HAVE AN ABILITY TO FORM AN OPINION AS TO THE TYPES OF PARENTS PEOPLE ARE?

# 109 MS. CLARK:

YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION. THE COURT RULED THIS BEYOND THE SCOPE OF THE PEOPLE'S -- THIS WHOLE LINE OF QUESTIONING IS IRRELEVANT.

# 110 THE COURT:

I DID. I DON'T WANT TO GET INTO THIS TOO FAR. YOU'VE ESTABLISHED THAT HE'S A PARENT. YOU'VE ASKED HIS OPINION REGARDING THE RELATIONSHIP OF THE CHILDREN, BETWEEN THE CHILDREN AND MR. SIMPSON. I ALLOWED YOU TO DO THAT.

# 111 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DO YOU THINK YOU HAD AN ABILITY DURING THE PERIOD OF TIME THAT YOU KNEW O.J. SIMPSON AND NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON TO FORM AN OPINION AS TO WHAT TYPE OF FATHER O.J. SIMPSON WAS?

# 112 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 113 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 114 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

OF THE TIMES I'VE SEEN HIM, YES.

# 115 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND DURING THIS PERIOD OF TIME, ISN'T IT TRUE, SIR, FROM MAY TO MAY OF '94, THIS ONE YEAR, THAT O.J. SIMPSON WAS SPENDING NIGHTS AT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON'S HOME?

# 116 A:

THERE WAS TIMES WHEN HE -- WHEN HE WAS AT BUNDY.

# 117 Q:

AND THERE WERE --

# 118 A:

HOWEVER, I DON'T KNOW THE DATES, BUT YEAH, THERE WERE TIMES.

# 119 Q:

AND THERE WERE TIMES WHEN SHE WAS AT ROCKINGHAM?

# 120 A:

YES. THERE WAS TIMES THERE.

# 121 Q:

AND WHEN YOU SAY THAT THIS WAS ON AND OFF, DURING THIS PERIOD OF TIME, THIS WAS ON, WASN'T IT, FROM 93 TO '94?

# 122 A:

FROM '93, '94?

# 123 Q:

MAY OF '93 TO MAY OF '94, THIS WAS A CONTINUING ONGOING RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN O.J. AND NICOLE.

# 124 A:

I -- I KNOW THERE WAS THAT COMMITMENT AND I -- AND CAN'T GIVE THE EXACT DATE, BUT I -- I -- FROM MAY OF '93, I KNOW THEY HAD A COMMITMENT TO GO -- MAKE THE DISTANCE TO SEE IF IT WAS GOING TO WORK, AND I CAN'T GIVE THE EXACT DATE. I JUST CAN'T. I -- IT'S VERY HARD TO --

# 125 Q:

THAT PERIOD OF TIME SOUND APPROXIMATELY CORRECT?

# 126 A:

YES.

# 127 Q:

YOU WERE ALSO AWARE THAT DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME THAT O.J.'S BUSINESS WOULD TAKE HIM OUT OF TOWN?

# 128 A:

YES.

# 129 Q:

AND THAT IT WAS PART OF HIS JOB TO HAVE TO TRAVEL?

# 130 A:

YES.

# 131 Q:

REGARDING THE CONDITIONS AT ROCKINGHAM ON JUNE THE 13TH, YOU'RE AWARE THAT THE ENTIRE GROUNDS ARE PROFESSIONALLY LIT AT NIGHT; ARE THEY NOT?

# 132 A:

UMM, YES. I -- IT'S -- IT'S LIKE THERE WAS DIM LIGHTS THAT ARE ON THE BOTTOM THOUGH. SO THAT'S WHY I SAY IT'S DARK. THERE'S STILL THAT LIGHTING, BUT IT'S STILL DARK -- THE -- YOU'VE BEEN -- IT'S LIKE A DIM LIGHT.

# 133 Q:

WHAT ABOUT THE TREES? DON'T THE TREES HAVE LIGHTS IN THEM?

# 134 A:

I THINK THE TREE WHERE THE -- THE SNOW WHITE STUFF IS, IT'S -- THAT ONE TREE IS LIT.

# 135 Q:

BUT AREN'T THERE OTHER TREES IN THE FRONT THAT ARE ALSO LIT WITH LIGHTS THAT ARE BOTH GOING UP INTO THE TREES AND DOWN?

# 136 A:

I KNOW THAT ONE IS. AND THE OTHER TREES MIGHT BE TO THE SIDE OF THAT. TO THE -- TO THE AREA OF THAT -- OF WHERE THE ROLLS ROYCE IS, I DON'T REMEMBER A BRIGHT LIGHT THERE. I JUST DON'T.

# 137 Q:

REGARDING MR. SIMPSON'S LUGGAGE, YOU'VE NEVER SEEN HIS LUGGAGE BEFORE TO ANY GREAT EXTENT, HAD YOU?

# 138 A:

NO.

# 139 MS. CLARK:

ASKED AND ANSWERED.

# 140 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 141 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND CERTAINLY YOU WOULD HAVE NO OCCASION TO SEE IT AFTERWARDS, WOULD YOU?

# 142 A:

NO.

# 143 Q:

WASN'T YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO PACK AND UNPACK HIS BAGS?

# 144 A:

NEVER.

# 145 Q:

WAS IT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO TAKE CARE OF HIS LUGGAGE?

# 146 A:

NO.

# 147 Q:

NOW, WHILE -- WHEN YOU MOVED INTO ROCKINGHAM, DID O.J. SIMPSON INSTRUCT YOU THAT IF NICOLE NEEDED ANY HELP AT ALL, THAT YOU WERE TO DO EXACTLY WHAT YOU WERE DOING IN THE PAST WITH HER?

# 148 A:

HE DIDN'T INSTRUCT ME THAT. IF SHE CALLED, I WOULD DO SOMETHING.

# 149 Q:

DID HE TELL YOU THAT THAT WAS OKAY, THAT YOU COULD DO THAT?

# 150 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. HEARSAY.

# 151 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 152 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID HE IN ANY WAY ADVISE YOU OR TELL YOU NOT TO DO ANYTHING THAT O.J. HAD DONE --

# 153 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION.

# 154 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: -- THAT NICOLE HAD ASKED FOR IN THE PAST?

# 155 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION.

# 156 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 157 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: ARE YOU AWARE THAT FROM AUGUST TO FEBRUARY OF '93 TO '94, THAT O.J. HAD LIVED IN HIS APARTMENT IN NEW YORK WORKING?

# 158 A:

HE HAD AN APARTMENT IN NEW YORK, RIGHT.

# 159 MS. CLARK:

NO FOUNDATION. SPECULATION.

# 160 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 161 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

THAT HE HAD AN APARTMENT THERE, YES, AND FOOTBALL WAS GOING ON.

# 162 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND SO HIS BUSINESS AND WORK TOOK HIM OUT OF THE CITY?

# 163 A:

YES.

# 164 Q:

AND OUT OF THE STATE?

# 165 A:

YES.

# 166 Q:

WAS IT YOUR FEELING THAT O.J. SIMPSON WAS CONTENT WITH HIS LIFE IN MAY OF 1994?

# 167 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 168 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 169 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: WAS HE HAPPY WITH HIS LIFE-STYLE IN MAY OF 1994?

# 170 MS. CLARK:

SAME OBJECTION.

# 171 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 172 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID HE SEEM TO HAVE ANY PROBLEMS WITH WOMEN IN MAY OF 1994?

# 173 MS. CLARK:

SAME OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 174 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 175 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: YOU TOLD US LAST WEEK THAT YOU DID NOT KEEP TRACK OF O.J.'S COMINGS AND GOINGS?

# 176 A:

I DID NOT, CORRECT.

# 177 Q:

SO IF I WAS TO ASK YOU THAT ON JUNE THE 12TH AT 9:45, DID YOU GO INTO O.J.'S SIMPSON'S RESIDENCE TO SEE WHERE HE WAS, WHAT WOULD YOUR ANSWER BE?

# 178 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 179 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 180 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

IF I WENT TO THE RESIDENCE?

# 181 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: YEAH.

# 182 A:

I DIDN'T GO IN. I -- SO, NO, I WOULDN'T ASK HIM TO GO IN THERE. I --

# 183 Q:

AND THAT WOULD NEVER BE ANYTHING YOU WOULD DO AT A SPECIFIC TIME, TO GO CHECK UP ON HIM AND SEE WHERE HE WAS; ISN'T THAT TRUE?

# 184 A:

THAT IS TRUE.

# 185 Q:

AND SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER OR NOT HE WAS IN THAT HOUSE, DO YOU?

# 186 A:

I DON'T.

# 187 Q:

FOR ALL YOU KNOW, THE LAST TIME YOU SAW HIM, HE WAS WALKING TOWARDS THE HOUSE?

# 188 A:

RIGHT. HE WAS IN THE -- DIRECTION --

# 189 Q:

AND YOU NEVER SAW ANY EVIDENCE OF HIM LEAVING THE HOUSE?

# 190 A:

NO.

# 191 Q:

SO THE LAST TIME YOU SAW HIM, IT WAS YOUR STATE OF MIND THAT HE PROBABLY WAS IN THE HOUSE?

# 192 A:

YES.

# 193 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION.

# 194 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. ANSWER IS STRICKEN.

# 195 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: AT 9:50, DID YOU GO TO CHECK ON O.J. SIMPSON'S WHEREABOUTS IN HIS HOUSE?

# 196 A:

NO.

# 197 Q:

AT 9:55, DID YOU GO CHECK?

# 198 A:

NO.

# 199 Q:

AT 10:00 O'CLOCK, DID YOU CHECK?

# 200 A:

NO.

# 201 Q:

AT 10:15, DID YOU CHECK?

# 202 A:

NO.

# 203 Q:

WOULD YOU EVER DURING THAT DAY CHECK AS TO WHERE O.J. SIMPSON WAS?

# 204 A:

NO.

# 205 Q:

WOULD YOU EVER ON ANY DAY DURING THE SIX MONTHS YOU LIVED THERE CHECK AS TO WHERE O.J. SIMPSON WAS?

# 206 A:

NO.

# 207 Q:

AND WHEN YOU SAW HIM THE VERY NEXT DAY WHEN HE CAME BACK AFTER THE MURDERS OF HIS EX-WIFE AND RONALD GOLDMAN, HE SENSED SOME RELIEF THAT AT LEAST HE KNEW THAT YOU HAD BEEN WITH HIM THAT DAY.

# 208 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 209 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID HE NOT?

# 210 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION.

# 211 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 212 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID HE APPEAR RELIEVED WHEN HE WAS TALKING TO YOU ABOUT BEING WITH HIM THE DAY BEFORE?

# 213 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. SPECULATION.

# 214 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 215 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: ISN'T IT TRUE THAT WHEN O.J. SIMPSON SAID TO YOU, "THANK GOD I WAS WITH YOU," THAT HE SEEMED TO BE RELIEVED --

# 216 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.

# 217 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

# 218 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHAT DID -- HOW DID O.J. SIMPSON APPEAR TO YOU WHEN HE MADE STATEMENTS TO YOU THE NEXT DAY AT ROCKINGHAM?

# 219 A:

HE WAS TALKING DOWN LIKE THAT (INDICATING). UH, WE DIDN'T TALK A LOT. HE JUST WAS KIND OF OH, GOSH TYPE OF, UH, ATTITUDE, KIND OF -- HE HAD A -- DO YOU WANT ME TO BRING UP HOW THEY --

# 220 Q:

YES.

# 221 A:

-- HOW THAT STATEMENT CAME UP?

# 222 Q:

YES. HOW DID IT COME UP?

# 223 A:

IT WAS TALKING BACK TO A T.V. THE -- THE T.V. ANNOUNCER HAD SAID SOMETHING AND HE HAD JUST SAID THAT, UH, HE -- AT THAT TIME, I WAS WITH HIM AND HE SAID, "KATO WAS -- KATO KNEW THAT WE WERE TOGETHER," AND I JUST -- I SAID NO, I DIDN'T SEE HIM IN THE HOUSE AND THAT WAS IT.

# 224 Q:

HE DIDN'T TRY TO PUT WORDS IN YOUR MOUTH, DID HE?

# 225 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 226 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 227 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

NO, BECAUSE I SAID I DIDN'T SEE HIM IN THE HOUSE.

# 228 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: HAS HE EVER ASKED YOU TO CREATE AN ALIBI FOR HIM OR LIE FOR HIM?

KEY QUOTE

# 229 A:

NO.

# 230 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 231 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: HAS ANYBODY EVER ASKED THAT?

# 232 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION.

# 233 THE COURT:

WHAT'S THE OBJECTION? STAND, COUNSEL.

# 234 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. HEARSAY.

# 235 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 236 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: IS THERE ANY QUESTION IN YOUR MIND THAT WHEN YOU SAW O.J. SIMPSON AT 9:45, HE WAS NOT ACTING IN ANY UNUSUAL MANNER?

# 237 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. VAGUE, DATE.

# 238 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 239 MS. CLARK:

AND OBJECTION, MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.

# 240 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.

# 241 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

I HAVE TO HEAR IT AGAIN.

# 242 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: AT 9:45, SIR, IS THERE --

# 243 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY. THE WITNESS NEVER SAW HIM AT 9:45.

# 244 THE COURT:

HE CAN ASK THE QUESTION, COUNSEL.

# 245 Q:

BY MR. SHAPIRO: AFTER YOU RETURNED FROM MC DONALD'S --

# 246 A:

YES.

# 247 Q:

-- IN THE EARLY -- IN THE MID EVENING OF JUNE THE 12TH, IS THERE ANY QUESTION IN YOUR MIND THAT O.J. SIMPSON WAS NOT ACTING IN ANY UNUSUAL MANNER?

# 248 A:

HE WAS NOT ACTING UNUSUAL, NO.

# 249 Q:

AND WHEN YOU SAW HIM AGAIN AT 10:00 O'CLOCK -- AT 11:00 O'CLOCK LEAVING FOR THE AIRPORT, OTHER THAN BEING RUSHED, IS THERE ANY QUESTION THAT HE WAS NOT ACTING IN ANY UNUSUAL MANNER?

# 250 A:

HE WAS RUSHED TO CATCH A FLIGHT. SO IF THAT'S UNUSUAL, THAT -- AND OUR CONTACT WAS BRIEF. SO BEING RUSHED, THAT'S ALL I CAN SAY, YES.

# 251 Q:

NOTHING THAT YOU WOULD DESCRIBE AS SHOWING HIM TO BE -- IN ANY WAY, ACTING ANY DIFFERENTLY THAN THE O.J. SIMPSON YOU HAD COME TO KNOW FOR THE LAST YEAR AND A HALF?

# 252 A:

NO. NO, NOT DIFFERENT.

# 253 Q:

AND HAVE YOU DONE YOUR BEST TO BE AS TRUTHFUL AS YOU CAN WITH THIS JURY OVER THE LAST FOUR DAYS?

# 254 A:

YES.

# 255 Q:

IS THERE ANYTHING YOU HAVE SAID THAT IS A LIE TO THIS JURY?

# 256 A:

NO. EVERYTHING I DID TO THE BEST OF MY -- MY MEMORY AND THAT'S IT. EVERYTHING WAS WHAT I REMEMBER AND TRUTHFUL.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Kato Kaelin

NICOLE DIDN'T LET ME SEE SIDNEY. I WANT TO SEE MY DAUGHTER. I WANT TO SEE HER... THEY'RE WEARING THESE TIGHT OUTFITS... WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO WHEN THEY'RE GOING TO BE GRANDMAS? THEY CAN'T WEAR MINISKIRTS.

Kaelin's recreation of OJ's post-recital complaints reframes Simpson's demeanor as exasperated and wistful rather than threatening — directly undercutting Clark's portrait of a jealous, controlling ex-husband.

Kato Kaelin

IT WAS TALKING BACK TO A T.V. THE T.V. ANNOUNCER HAD SAID SOMETHING AND HE HAD JUST SAID THAT, UH, HE — AT THAT TIME, I WAS WITH HIM AND HE SAID, 'KATO WAS — KATO KNEW THAT WE WERE TOGETHER,' AND I JUST — I SAID NO, I DIDN'T SEE HIM IN THE HOUSE AND THAT WAS IT.

Kaelin clarifies the context of the 'alibi' statement — Simpson appeared to be reacting to TV coverage, not coaching Kaelin — while simultaneously confirming he told Simpson he could NOT vouch for his whereabouts inside the house.

Kato Kaelin

HAS HE EVER ASKED YOU TO CREATE AN ALIBI FOR HIM OR LIE FOR HIM? / NO.

Direct denial that Simpson ever solicited a false alibi, delivered cleanly without hedging — a clean win for the defense on Shapiro's final push.

Kato Kaelin

YES. [MISS CLARK DOES INTIMIDATE ME.] BY HER JOB.

Shapiro opens with this to signal to the jury that Kaelin's equivocal testimony under Clark was the product of intimidation, not deception — framing the witness as sympathetic rather than evasive.

Evidence (2)

Informal

OJ Simpson's luggage — Shapiro establishes Kaelin had no familiarity with it and no responsibility for it, undermining any suggestion Kaelin could identify a suspicious bag

discussed

Informal

Exterior lighting at Rockingham estate — Shapiro challenges Kaelin's characterization of the grounds as 'dark,' noting professional lighting including illuminated trees

challenged

Notable Exchanges (4)

Robert Shapiro•Kato Kaelin

Shapiro walks Kaelin through a minute-by-minute hypothetical — did you check on OJ at 9:50? 9:55? 10:00? 10:15? — each answered 'No,' building a wall of silence around Simpson's unwitnessed hours.

strategic

Robert Shapiro•Kato Kaelin•Marcia Clark•Lance A. Ito

Shapiro attempts to elicit that OJ seemed 'relieved' when he said 'Kato knew we were together' — Clark objects three times (sustained each time for speculation and misstatement). Shapiro finally gets Kaelin's unvarnished account: OJ was reacting to TV, and Kaelin immediately told him he couldn't confirm his whereabouts inside the house.

revealing

Robert Shapiro•Kato Kaelin

Shapiro asks whether Clark intimidates Kaelin, then pivots to establish that Kaelin has been doing his honest best throughout — a rehabilitation of the witness Shapiro had previously treated as hostile.

strategic

Lance A. Ito•Robert Shapiro

Ito initially overrules Clark's hearsay objection on OJ's statements about wanting a family, then mid-question reverses himself and sustains it — a rare mid-answer ruling reversal.

procedural

Light Moments (2)

Kato Kaelin

Shapiro says Kaelin has a '9-year-old daughter.' Kaelin corrects him: '10 now.'

Kato Kaelin

Kaelin's recreation of OJ complaining about women in miniskirts at the recital — delivered with imitative voices and body language — drew an almost comic portrait of Simpson as a grumbling middle-aged father rather than a murderous stalker.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Marcia Clark

witness sympathy / intimidation framing

Shapiro opens by asking Kaelin directly whether Clark intimidates him — Kaelin says yes, 'by her job' — framing Clark's aggressive cross as the cause of any evasiveness rather than dishonesty or complicity.

⚔ Prosecution's timeline theory

absence of evidence / witness limitation

Shapiro methodically establishes that Kaelin never monitored OJ's movements on any day during six months of cohabitation, making it impossible for him to confirm or deny Simpson's presence at Rockingham between 9:45 and 11pm on June 12.

Witness Demeanor

(Witness recreates OJ's voice and apparent emotional state during post-recital conversation, with vocal shifts and physical gesturing)

(Witness asks clarifying questions about dates, visibly struggling to place events in sequence)

(Witness asks Shapiro's permission before explaining how the 'alibi' TV moment arose — 'DO YOU WANT ME TO BRING UP HOW THEY — HOW THAT STATEMENT CAME UP?')

Objections

27 objections (11 sustained, 16 overruled)

Proceeding 5433 • 256 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103