Direct examination of Brian Kato Kaelin

📄 Direct examination of Brian Kato Kaelin — Monday, March 27, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\27\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-BRIAN-KA.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 45 of 167

◀ In chambers: witness examination procedures Administrative matters: cross-examination ▶

Witness: Brian "Kato" Kaelin
Examiner: Marcia Clark
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Monday, March 27, 1995 • Utterances: 97

Marcia Clark methodically questions Kato Kaelin about OJ Simpson's pattern of failing to pick up his children for scheduled visitations during the period Kaelin lived at Nicole's Gretna Green house in 1993. Kaelin is characteristically vague and hedging throughout, but Clark patiently extracts admissions of at least two missed pickups, one early dropoff, and a possible missed school event in May 1994.

# 1

DIRECT EXAMINATION

# 2

BY MS. CLARK:

# 3 Q:

MR. KAELIN, YOU LIVED ON GRETNA GREEN FROM, DID YOU INDICATE JANUARY OF 1993 UNTIL DECEMBER OF 1993?

# 4 A:

UH, JANUARY '93 TILL ABOUT JANUARY '94, KIND OF -- END OF -- LATE DECEMBER, JANUARY, THE MOVE WAS RIGHT ABOUT THEN.

# 5 Q:

AND PART OF YOUR RESPONSE AND PART OF WHAT YOU DID THERE TO DEFRAY THE COST OF RENT WAS TO TAKE CARE OF THE CHILDREN. YOU PREVIOUSLY TESTIFIED TO THAT?

# 6 A:

YES.

# 7 Q:

AND SO YOU -- WERE YOU AWARE OF WHEN THE CHILDREN WERE SUPPOSED TO BE PICKED UP OR VISITED BY THE DEFENDANT?

# 8 A:

I WASN'T ALWAYS AWARE OF THE TIME FRAMES. SOMETIMES YES, SOMETIMES NO.

# 9 Q:

DID IT HAPPEN THAT YOU WERE ADVISED THAT THE DEFENDANT WAS SUPPOSED TO COME AND PICK UP THE CHILDREN FOR VISITATION AND FAILED TO SHOW UP?

# 10 A:

UH, ONCE I KNOW. I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY TIMES, BUT I KNOW AT LEAST ONCE.

# 11 Q:

AT LEAST ONCE WHEN HE FAILED TO APPEAR TO PICK UP THE CHILDREN WHEN HE SHOULD HAVE?

# 12 A:

FOR A WEEKEND.

# 13 Q:

UH-HUH.

# 14 A:

THAT'S -- I DON'T KNOW THE OTHER TIMES.

# 15 Q:

ARE YOU AWARE OF OCCASIONS WHEN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO COME BY TO VISIT WITH THE CHILDREN DURING THE WEEK AND FAILED TO SHOW UP?

# 16 A:

UMM, MAYBE ONCE ON THAT TOO. I DIDN'T KNOW THAT THE SCHEDULE OF WHEN IN TOWN AND OUT OF TOWN, BUT IF NICOLE HAD SAID SOMETHING TO ME, THAT'S WHEN I WOULD BE AWARE. SO SHE MIGHT HAVE SAID IT MAYBE ONCE OR TWICE TO ME, BECAUSE THEY HAD ACTIVITIES ALL THE TIME OF KARATE AND THEY ALWAYS WERE DOING SOMETHING ACTIVE AND I DIDN'T KNOW THE PICK-UP SCHEDULE. IF SHE ASKED ME TO PICK THEM UP SOMEWHERE, I'D GO. SO I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS -- UH, BECAUSE -- IF O.J. WAS SUPPOSED TO PICK THEM UP OR ME, BUT I WAS THERE.

# 17 Q:

OKAY. SO THERE WERE OCCASIONS WHEN SHE WOULD TELL YOU TO GO AND PICK UP THE CHILDREN AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW IF IT WAS ORIGINALLY SUPPOSED TO BE O.J. TO DO IT OR NOT?

# 18 A:

YEAH. OR -- OR FOR ME JUST TO DO IT.

# 19 Q:

BUT ON AT LEAST TWO OCCASIONS YOU KNOW OF, HE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE THE ONE TO HAVE THEM ONCE FOR A WEEKEND AND ONCE DURING THE WEEK, AND HE DIDN'T SHOW UP?

# 20 A:

WELL, YEAH. YES.

# 21 Q:

DO YOU KNOW OF ANY OCCASIONS WHEN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO COME AND TAKE THEM TO DINNER DURING THE WEEK AND FAILED TO SHOW UP?

# 22 A:

I DON'T KNOW. I -- I MEAN IT COULD HAVE HAPPENED, BUT I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS LIKE SHE HAD PLANS OR SOMETHING. I DON'T REMEMBER THAT.

# 23 Q:

DO YOU RECALL NICOLE COMPLAINING TO YOU THAT HE FAILED TO PICK UP THE CHILDREN WHEN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO?

# 24 A:

ONCE, YES.

# 25 Q:

AND WHEN WAS THAT?

# 26 A:

DURING MY STAY ON GRETNA GREEN.

# 27 Q:

DO YOU RECALL WHEN DURING YOUR STAY ON GRETNA GREEN?

# 28 A:

THE EXACT MONTH, NO. IT COULD HAVE BEEN ABOUT SIX MONTHS INTO STAYING THERE LIKE ON JUNE.

# 29 Q:

YOU ONLY RECALL HER TALKING ABOUT THAT ONCE?

# 30 A:

RIGHT NOW, YES. THAT'S -- I CAN'T --

# 31 Q:

ONLY ONCE?

# 32 A:

I MEAN I DIDN'T KNOW THE SCHEDULE. I REALLY DIDN'T.

# 33 Q:

NO. I'M TALKING ABOUT HOW MANY TIMES SHE TALKED TO YOU AND COMPLAINED TO YOU ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE FAILED TO PICK UP THE CHILDREN WHEN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO.

# 34 A:

YEAH. I WASN'T AWARE IF SHE WOULD SAY SOMETHING ABOUT THE PICK-UP SCHEDULE, THAT SHE COULD BRING IT UP LIKE IF O.J. WAS SUPPOSED TO PICK THEM UP AT SCHOOL OR NOT. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS A COMPLETE STAY OVER THE NIGHT DURING THE WEEK, IF HE HAD TIME DURING THE WEEK. SO IT COULD HAVE BEEN, "OH, HE DIDN'T PICK THEM UP AT SCHOOL TODAY," OR FOR DINNER, BUT IT WASN'T -- AND IF IT WASN'T THAT WAY, THEN I WOULD HAVE GONE AND PICKED THEM UP.

# 35 Q:

UH-HUH.

# 36 A:

BUT IT WASN'T --

# 37 Q:

SO YOU RECALL HER TELLING YOU ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION THAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO PICK THEM UP AND FAILED TO DO SO?

# 38 A:

ONCE. LIKE I SAID ONCE, TWICE, BUT I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT DATE. I DIDN'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH -- IF SHE WOULD HAVE SAID SOMETHING LIKE "OH, O.J. DIDN'T PICK THEM UP. CAN YOU GET THEM," SO I WOULD BE AWARE OF THAT. BUT I DIDN'T KNOW THE REASONING BEHIND, SO, OKAY, I'LL GET THEM.

# 39 Q:

I'M NOT ASKING YOU THE REASONING BEHIND.

# 40 A:

OKAY. SO --

# 41 Q:

I'M ASKING YOU ON HOW MANY OCCASIONS SHE TOLD YOU THAT HE WAS --

# 42 A:

AT LEAST TWICE.

# 43 Q:

-- SUPPOSED TO --

# 44 A:

AT LEAST TWICE.

# 45 Q:

AT LEAST TWICE. AND WAS THAT -- AND WAS ONE OF THOSE DURING THE WEEKEND, A WEEKEND PICK UP?

KEY QUOTE

# 46 A:

YES.

# 47 Q:

DO YOU RECALL HER COMPLAINING TO YOU THAT HE DROPPED THEM OFF SOONER THAN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO AND SHE HAD TO CHANGE PLANS AS A RESULT?

# 48 A:

YES.

# 49 Q:

AND ON HOW MANY OCCASIONS DID HE DO THAT?

# 50 A:

I REMEMBER THAT ONCE.

# 51 Q:

AND WAS THAT EARLY ON THE WEEKEND?

# 52 A:

UH, YES.

# 53 Q:

SO HE BROUGHT THEM BACK ON THE WEEKEND BEFORE HE WAS SUPPOSED TO?

# 54 A:

YES.

# 55 Q:

AND WAS THAT A DAY EARLY?

# 56 A:

IT COULD HAVE BEEN.

# 57 Q:

SO HE BROUGHT THEM BACK ON SATURDAY INSTEAD OF SUNDAY.

# 58 A:

IT COULD HAVE BEEN, YES.

# 59 Q:

SO SHE HAD TO REARRANGE HER SCHEDULE TO BE HOME FOR THE CHILDREN?

# 60 A:

YES.

# 61 Q:

AND ON ANOTHER OCCASION, DO YOU RECALL THAT SHE TOLD YOU THAT HE FAILED TO PICK UP THE CHILDREN, HE MISSED ONE OF HIS WEEKENDS?

# 62 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER EXACTLY, BUT I THINK THAT HAPPENED.

# 63 Q:

AND ANOTHER OCCASION, DO YOU REMEMBER SHE TOLD YOU THAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO COME BY TO TAKE THEM TO DINNER OR TO TAKE THEM TO AN ACTIVITY AND FAILED TO DO SO?

# 64 A:

LIKE I SAID, ONCE, YES.

# 65 Q:

AND ONLY ONCE?

# 66 A:

I MEAN ONCE I CAN DEFINITELY REMEMBER.

# 67 Q:

BUT IT COULD HAVE BEEN MORE THAN THAT?

# 68 A:

IT COULD HAVE BEEN.

# 69 Q:

AND YOU RECALL HER TALKING ABOUT THE FACT THAT HE FAILED TO SHOW UP WHEN HE WAS SUPPOSED TO ON MORE THAN ONE OCCASION?

# 70 A:

YES.

# 71 Q:

HOW MANY OCCASIONS?

# 72 A:

UMM, AT LEAST TWICE.

KEY QUOTE

# 73 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 74 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DO YOU RECALL IN MAY OF 1994 APPROXIMATELY THAT JUSTIN HAD A COMMUNION THAT THE DEFENDANT FAILED TO SHOW UP FOR?

# 75 A:

I DON'T. I -- I KNOW THERE WAS SOME EVENT. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS A COMMUNION OR NOT. THERE WAS SOME EVENT AND I DON'T KNOW THE -- EVERYTHING BEHIND IT OF WHAT WAS GOING ON.

# 76 Q:

BUT YOU KNOW HE DIDN'T SHOW UP?

# 77 A:

I THINK SO. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS A COMMUNION, BUT I THINK THERE WAS AN EVENT IN MAY.

# 78 Q:

FOR ONE OF THE CHILDREN?

# 79 A:

FOR ONE OF THE CHILDREN.

# 80 Q:

AND HE DIDN'T GO?

# 81 A:

I BELIEVE SO.

# 82 THE COURT:

DID YOU GO TO THIS EVENT YOURSELF?

# 83 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

ME?

# 84 THE COURT:

YOU.

# 85 BRIAN "KATO" KAELIN:

NO, I DIDN'T GO.

# 86 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: HOW DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS EVENT?

# 87 A:

I JUST KNOW THERE WAS AN EVENT IN MAY HAPPENING. I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS A COMMUNION.

# 88 Q:

AND HOW DID YOU LEARN ABOUT THAT?

# 89 A:

I JUST KIND OF REMEMBER. I THOUGHT IT WAS MAYBE A GRADUATION AT THE SUNSHINE SCHOOL. I WAS THINKING IT WAS THAT, NOT A COMMUNION.

KEY QUOTE

# 90 Q:

AND HOW DID YOU LEARN ABOUT IT?

# 91 A:

MY MEMORY.

# 92 Q:

I MEAN WHO TOLD YOU?

# 93 A:

OH. I -- I THINK IT WAS -- I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T KNOW. I --I THOUGHT IT WAS MAYBE CORA, A FRIEND.

# 94 Q:

CORA FISCHMAN?

# 95 A:

I THINK SO, BUT I'M NOT POSITIVE IF SHE TOLD ME ABOUT THIS EVENT THAT HE MISSED.

# 96 Q:

UH-HUH.

# 97 MS. CLARK:

THAT'S ALL AT THIS TIME, BUT I HAVE THE PAGE CITES AND VOLUME CITE FOR THE COURT CONCERNING COUNSEL'S QUESTIONING INTO THIS AREA.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (3)

Kato Kaelin

AT LEAST TWICE.

After considerable hedging, Kaelin finally confirms Simpson missed child pickups on at least two occasions — the minimum Clark needed him to establish.

Kato Kaelin

HOW DO YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS EVENT? ... MY MEMORY.

Kaelin's non-answer to how he learned about the May event — illustrating his characteristic vagueness and forcing Clark to ask the obvious follow-up.

Kato Kaelin

I JUST KIND OF REMEMBER. I THOUGHT IT WAS MAYBE A GRADUATION AT THE SUNSHINE SCHOOL. I WAS THINKING IT WAS THAT, NOT A COMMUNION.

Kaelin undercuts Clark's framing of the event (Justin's First Communion) by substituting a different memory entirely, weakening the specificity of the testimony.

Notable Exchanges (2)

Lance A. Ito•Kato Kaelin

The judge interrupts to ask Kaelin whether he personally attended the May event, clarifying the basis of Kaelin's knowledge.

clarifying

Marcia Clark•Kato Kaelin

Clark repeatedly rephrases the same question about how many times Nicole complained about missed pickups, slowly walking Kaelin from 'once' to 'at least twice' over several exchanges.

strategic

Light Moments (1)

Kato Kaelin

When asked 'How did you learn about this event?' Kaelin answers 'My memory' — apparently not understanding the question was asking who told him, not how he retains information.

Witness Demeanor

Chronically hedging ('I mean once, like I said once, twice'), requiring Clark to re-ask questions multiple times to get a direct answer.

Visibly uncertain about specifics, frequently qualifying with 'I don't know exactly' and 'it could have been.'

Objections

None recorded

Proceeding 5423 • 97 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103