Cross-examination of Brian Kato Kaelin (part 8)

📄 Cross-examination of Brian Kato Kaelin (part 8) — Thursday, March 23, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\23\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-BRIAN-KAT.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 44 of 167

◀ Afternoon session opening Administrative matters: transcripts ▶

Witness: Brian "Kato" Kaelin
Examiner: Robert Shapiro
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, March 23, 1995 • Utterances: 104

Robert Shapiro resumed cross-examination of Kato Kaelin after the lunch recess, methodically establishing that Kato had no knowledge of OJ Simpson's travel schedule or luggage habits, could not account for OJ's whereabouts every 10 minutes, and critically saw no blood anywhere on the Rockingham property at 11pm. The session ended abruptly when Shapiro introduced a 20-page transcript of his own June 14th interview with Kato — a document Marcia Clark stated she had never seen — requiring a recess for her to review it.

# 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

# 2 THE COURT:

THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED. ALL RIGHT. LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT WE'VE NOW BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL. GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

# 3 THE JURY:

GOOD AFTERNOON.

# 4 THE COURT:

MR. BRIAN KAELIN IS ON THE WITNESS STAND UNDERGOING CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. SHAPIRO.

BRIAN KATO KAELIN, THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE LUNCH RECESS, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:

# 5 THE COURT:

GOOD AFTERNOON AGAIN MR. KAELIN. YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH. MR. SHAPIRO, YOU MAY CONTINUE.

# 6 MR. SHAPIRO:

THANK YOU VERY MUCH. GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. GOOD AFTERNOON, YOUR HONOR.

# 7

CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

# 8

BY MR. SHAPIRO:

# 9 Q:

MR. KAELIN, YOU MENTIONED THAT MR. SIMPSON WAS TIRED ON JUNE THE 12TH. ARE YOU AWARE OF HIS TRAVEL SCHEDULE THE WEEK PRECEDING THAT?

# 10 A:

NO.

# 11 Q:

DO YOU KNOW IF HE WAS OUT OF TOWN AT ALL?

# 12 A:

THE WEEK BEFORE THAT?

# 13 Q:

YES.

# 14 A:

I DON'T THINK SO. WE WENT TO THE JUNE 6TH, THAT FUNCTION, UH, THE PEDIATRIC AIDS.

# 15 Q:

SO YOUR ANSWER IS THAT YOU WERE NOT AWARE OF HIS TRAVEL SCHEDULE.

# 16 A:

NO.

# 17 Q:

YOU KNEW HE WAS THERE ON JUNE 6TH, BUT ON JUNE 7TH OR 8TH, YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE HE WAS?

# 18 A:

NO. I WASN'T AWARE.

# 19 Q:

AND THAT WOULD BE YOUR REGULAR PRACTICE, NOT TO KNOW WHERE HE WAS. AND IF HE WAS OUT OF TOWN, YOU WOULDN'T NECESSARILY KNOW THAT.

# 20 A:

IF HE WAS NOT IN THE HOUSE?

# 21 Q:

YES.

# 22 A:

WELL, I WOULDN'T KNOW HE WAS LEAVING. BUT IF HE WASN'T THERE, I WOULD KNOW, YOU KNOW, FROM GIGI, OH, O.J. IS GONE, HE'S AT WHERE, LIKE THAT.

# 23 Q:

OKAY.

# 24 A:

BUT HE WOULDN'T HAVE TO TELL ME HE'S FLYING OUT THAT DAY OR WHATEVER.

# 25 Q:

AND ALSO, WHEN YOU'RE ASKED TO GIVE A 10-MINUTE BY 10-MINUTE RECITATION OF WHERE O.J. WAS ON THE 12TH, COULD YOU DO THAT FOR ANY GIVEN DAY? FOR ANY OTHER DAY, COULD YOU TELL WHERE HE WAS EVERY 10 MINUTES?

# 26 A:

OH, NO.

# 27 Q:

COULD YOU DO THAT FOR YOURSELF?

# 28 A:

WHERE I WAS THE LAST 10 MINUTES?

# 29 Q:

NOT TODAY. IF I PICKED ANOTHER DAY.

# 30 A:

OH, NO.

# 31 Q:

ACCOUNT FOR YOUR WHEREABOUTS EVERY 10 MINUTES?

# 32 A:

NO.

# 33 Q:

ABOUT THE LIGHTING CONDITIONS AT THE ROCKINGHAM HOME OF MR. SIMPSON, THE TREES ARE ALL LIT WITH PROFESSIONAL LIGHTING; ARE THEY NOT?

# 34 A:

YES. THERE'S SOME LIGHTS HIT THE -- YES. THERE'S LIGHTS FROM THE BOTTOM AND I THINK THEY GO UP.

# 35 Q:

AND ALSO, AT THE FRONT ENTRANCE, THERE ARE COACH LIGHTS ON EITHER SIDE OF THE DOOR?

# 36 A:

I THINK SO.

# 37 Q:

AND ON ASHFORD, THERE'S A LARGE STREET LAMP; IS THERE NOT?

# 38 A:

YES.

# 39 Q:

AND THAT STREET LAMP ILLUMINATES THE AREA OF THE DRIVEWAY AND THE FRONT DOOR; DOES IT NOT?

# 40 A:

THE STREETLIGHT -- YEAH, YOU CAN SEE THE STREETLIGHT WOULD LIGHT UP PART OF THE DRIVEWAY JUST A BIT, YEAH.

# 41 Q:

AND THAT'S A VERY, VERY BRIGHT INTENSE STREETLIGHT; IS IT NOT?

# 42 A:

YEAH. IT LIGHTS UP THAT CORNER, YEAH.

# 43 Q:

YOU'VE PREVIOUSLY TESTIFIED, HAVE YOU NOT, THAT YOU DON'T RECALL WHETHER OR NOT THE LIGHTS WERE ON DOWNSTAIRS?

# 44 A:

YEAH. I WAS IFFY. I THINK I SAID THAT I THOUGHT THEY WERE ON AND MAYBE OFF, BUT I THOUGHT THEY WERE -- I THINK I SAID THEY WERE OFF AND ON AND THEN I THOUGHT I -- THE LAST THING I SAID IN THIS TESTIMONY WAS THAT THEY WERE OFF.

# 45 Q:

ARE YOU -- HAVE YOU PREVIOUSLY TESTIFIED THAT YOU'RE NOT SURE WHETHER THEY WERE ON OR OFF?

# 46 A:

YES, I DID THAT.

# 47 Q:

AND WOULD THAT BE YOUR BEST ANSWER IN THIS CASE?

# 48 A:

THAT I WASN'T SURE? YES.

# 49 Q:

WHEN -- DID YOU HAVE ANY DIFFICULTY SEEING THE GOLF CLUBS AND THE BAG IN WHICH THEY WERE BEING CARRIED?

# 50 A:

THE ONE THAT I PUT IN THE TRUNK?

# 51 Q:

YES.

# 52 A:

NO.

# 53 Q:

THEY WERE RIGHT ON THE BENCH OUTSIDE?

# 54 A:

THEY WERE LAYING DOWN.

# 55 Q:

DID YOU NOTICE IF THEY WERE THERE WHEN YOU WENT TO MC DONALD'S?

# 56 A:

I DIDN'T NOTICE THAT.

# 57 Q:

WERE THE GOLF CLUBS IN A TYPE OF BAG THAT WOULD COVER THE GOLF CLUB BAG?

# 58 A:

YES, I BELIEVE SO. IT WAS, UMM -- IT WAS A SWISS ARMY BAG.

# 59 Q:

AND IS IT YOUR OPINION THAT THE SMALL BAG THAT YOU SAW ON THE GROUND, IF EMPTY, WOULD BE ABLE TO FIT INSIDE THE GOLF BAG?

# 60 A:

I -- I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO SAY. I COULDN'T TELL. I WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO KNOW THAT -- THE OTHER BAG THAT WAS BY THE ROLLS ROYCE? I DON'T KNOW. I COULDN'T TELL. IT WAS A -- I SUPPOSE IF IT WAS STUFFED IN THERE, IT COULD HAVE BEEN, IT COULD HAVE BEEN PUT IN THERE.

# 61 Q:

DID YOU EVER SEE MR. SIMPSON PICK UP THAT BAG?

# 62 A:

I -- NO.

# 63 Q:

DO YOU KNOW WHAT OTHER LUGGAGE MR. SIMPSON OWNS OR HAS OR TRAVELS WITH?

# 64 A:

OTHER LUGGAGE THAT HE HAS?

# 65 Q:

YEAH.

# 66 A:

HE HAS OTHER LUGGAGE. I -- I KNOW HE HAS OTHER LUGGAGE, BUT I DON'T KNOW.

# 67 Q:

WELL, YOU SAID YOU HAD NEVER SEEN THAT BLACK BAG BEFORE. HAVE YOU SEEN ANY OF HIS OTHER LUGGAGE BEFORE?

# 68 A:

NO. JUST THAT HE HAS -- YES, HE HAS LUGGAGE, BUT I HAVEN'T SEEN IT.

KEY QUOTE

# 69 Q:

SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT HIS NORMAL PRACTICE IS IN GOING TO THE AIRPORT WITH LUGGAGE, DO YOU?

# 70 A:

UH, NO.

# 71 Q:

DO YOU KNOW WHAT TYPE OF CLOTHING HE PACKED FOR THIS TRIP, IF ANY?

# 72 A:

I DON'T.

# 73 Q:

WHEN YOU PICKED UP THE GOLF BAG WITH THE CLUBS IN IT, DID YOU SEE ANY BLOOD AT THE FRONT OF THE DRIVEWAY AT 11:00 O'CLOCK?

# 74 A:

NO.

# 75 Q:

DID YOU SEE ANY BLOOD WALKING TO THE LIMOUSINE?

# 76 A:

NO.

# 77 Q:

DID YOU SEE ANY BLOOD ANYWHERE AT 11:00 O'CLOCK THAT NIGHT?

# 78 A:

NO.

# 79 Q:

AND IT WASN'T UNTIL THE POLICE OFFICERS THE NEXT MORNING TOLD YOU TO BE CAREFUL WHERE YOU WALKED THAT YOUR ATTENTION WAS DIRECTED TOWARDS ANY BLOOD; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

KEY QUOTE

# 80 A:

CORRECT.

# 81 Q:

AND IT WAS DIRECTED BY THEM. YOU DIDN'T SEE THIS ON YOUR OWN, DID YOU?

# 82 A:

NO.

# 83 Q:

YOU REMEMBER WHEN WE TALKED FOR THE FIRST TIME?

# 84 A:

YES.

# 85 Q:

AND THAT WAS ON THE 14TH OF JUNE?

# 86 A:

YES.

# 87 Q:

AND AT THAT POINT IN TIME, DO YOU RECALL ME ASKING YOU WHAT YOUR RECOLLECTION WAS OF YOUR CONVERSATION WITH O.J. AT 9:00 OR 10:00 O'CLOCK THAT NIGHT ON MONDAY?

# 88 A:

ON MONDAY THE -- MONDAY THE 13TH?

# 89 Q:

YES, THE NIGHT BEFORE.

# 90 A:

UMM, COULD YOU SHOW ME PART OF IT?

# 91 Q:

YES. ABSOLUTELY.

# 92 MR. SHAPIRO:

DO YOU HAVE A COPY OF THIS, COUNSEL, THE INTERVIEW I GAVE TO YOU?

# 93 MS. CLARK:

I'VE NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE.

KEY QUOTE

# 94 MR. SHAPIRO:

THIS IS THE INTERVIEW THAT I TURNED OVER TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY DURING THE PRELIMINARY HEARING. THIS IS A TRANSCRIPTION OF IT.

# 95 MS. CLARK:

THE PAGE COUNSEL HAS SHOWN TO ME, I'VE NEVER SEEN IT.

# 96 MR. SHAPIRO:

WELL, TAKE YOUR TIME TO READ IT.

# 97 MS. CLARK:

I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE REST OF IT.

# 98 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 99 THE COURT:

HOW MANY PAGES IS THAT, MR. SHAPIRO?

# 100 MR. SHAPIRO:

I THINK THE INTERVIEW -- THE TRANSCRIPTION IS -- WE HAVE ADDITIONAL COPIES HERE.

# 101 THE COURT:

NO. I'M JUST CURIOUS HOW MANY PAGES THIS IS.

KEY QUOTE

# 102 MR. SHAPIRO:

LET ME JUST TELL YOU WHAT IT IS RATHER THAN ESTIMATE. THE TRANSCRIPT IS 20 PAGES.

# 103 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I'M GOING TO GIVE MISS CLARK THE OPPORTUNITY TO READ THROUGH THIS. I THINK YOU WILL PROBABLY BE MORE COMFORTABLE IF YOU WERE SITTING BACK IN THE JURY ROOM SO YOU CAN READ OR WHATEVER. SO WE'LL TAKE A BRIEF RECESS, PROBABLY ABOUT 10 OR 15 MINUTES. PLEASE REMEMBER MY ADMONITIONS TO YOU, AND I'LL CALL YOU BACK AS SOON AS WE'RE READY TO GO. MR. KAELIN, YOU MAY STEP DOWN. PLEASE DON'T LEAVE THE COURTROOM. MR. KAELIN, YOU CAN STEP DOWN. ALL RIGHT. LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU'RE READY.

# 104 (RECESS.)

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Kato Kaelin

NO.

Repeated three times in succession — Kato confirmed he saw no blood at the front of the driveway, walking to the limo, or anywhere at 11pm, undercutting the prosecution's blood evidence timeline.

Robert Shapiro

AND IT WASN'T UNTIL THE POLICE OFFICERS THE NEXT MORNING TOLD YOU TO BE CAREFUL WHERE YOU WALKED THAT YOUR ATTENTION WAS DIRECTED TOWARDS ANY BLOOD; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

Shapiro frames the blood discovery as police-directed rather than independently observed, implanting doubt about the chain of perception.

Marcia Clark

I'VE NEVER SEEN IT BEFORE.

Clark's statement that she had never seen the defense's June 14th interview transcript with Kato created a courtroom surprise and forced a recess — raising questions about discovery compliance and what the transcript contained.

Kato Kaelin

OH, NO. [...] NO.

Kato admits he could not account for his own whereabouts every 10 minutes on another day, let alone OJ's — deflating the prosecution's demand for a precise timeline.

Evidence (3)

Informal

Golf bag (Swiss Army bag) containing golf clubs, placed in limo trunk by Kato

discussed

Informal

Small black bag seen near the Rolls Royce

discussed — Kato speculates it could have fit inside the golf bag if stuffed

Informal

20-page transcript of Shapiro's June 14th interview with Kato Kaelin, previously turned over to DA during preliminary hearing

introduced — Clark states she has never seen it; recess called for her to review

Notable Exchanges (2)

Robert Shapiro•Marcia Clark

Shapiro produced a 20-page transcript of his own June 14th interview with Kato and asked Clark if she had a copy. Clark stated she had never seen it. Shapiro claimed it was turned over during the preliminary hearing. Judge Ito called a recess.

tense

Robert Shapiro•Kato Kaelin

Shapiro walked Kato through three consecutive denials of seeing any blood at 11pm — at the driveway, walking to the limo, or anywhere on the property — then established that police directed his attention to blood the next morning.

strategic

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Kato Kaelin

prior inconsistent statement

Shapiro pressed Kato on his shifting testimony about whether the downstairs lights were on or off — Kato admitted he had said 'off,' 'on,' and 'not sure' at various points, settling on 'not sure' as his best answer.

⚔ Kato Kaelin

limitation of knowledge

Shapiro established that Kato had no knowledge of OJ's travel schedule, luggage habits, or routine — undermining Kato's ability to characterize anything about OJ's behavior on June 12th as unusual.

Witness Demeanor

Kato is cooperative but frequently hedging — 'I think,' 'I suppose,' 'I wouldn't be able to say'

Witness asks to be shown the prior interview before answering: 'UMM, COULD YOU SHOW ME PART OF IT?'

Objections

None recorded

Proceeding 5394 • 104 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103