Robert Shapiro methodically cross-examines Detective Vannatter on the adequacy of the murder weapon search (knives in LA and Chicago), the failure to take personal notes and designate a proper note-taker, and the breach of basic crime scene protection protocols at Bundy — including the admission that no one took notes at Rockingham before 7 AM and that 24 people were at the scene before Vannatter arrived. Shapiro also challenges Vannatter on his ignorance of modern DNA and footwear impression evidence collection standards, painting a picture of a sloppily managed investigation.
# 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) # 2 THE COURT: THANK YOU, COUNSEL. PROCEED.
# 3 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: YOU ARE AWARE THAT A KNIFE WAS RECOVERED NEAR THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS; ARE YOU NOT?
# 5 Q: AND THAT KNIFE HAD BLOOD ON IT?
# 6 A: THAT'S WHAT I WAS TOLD.
# 7 Q: AND THAT BLOOD CAME BACK A TYPE B BLOOD?
# 8 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. CALLS FOR HEARSAY.
# 9 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 10 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DO YOU KNOW IF THAT BLOOD CAME BACK AS THE BLOOD TYPE OF AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS NOT A PERSON WHO IS A DEFENDANT IN THIS CASE?
# 11 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. IT'S HEARSAY.
# 12 MR. DARDEN: AND BEYOND THE SCOPE, YOUR HONOR?
# 14 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: HOW MANY KNIVES HAVE YOU BOOKED INTO EVIDENCE IN THIS CASE?
# 15 A: THERE'S BEEN QUITE A FEW BOOKED.
# 17 A: I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY. MAYBE FIVE OR SIX.
# 18 Q: ISN'T THAT AN IMPORTANT THING TO KNOW, HOW MANY KNIVES ARE BOOKED IN THIS CASE?
# 19 A: WELL, SIR, THERE'S BEEN OVER -- I THINK AROUND 450 ITEMS OF EVIDENCE BOOKED, AND IT'S HARD TO KEEP UP WITH ALL OF IT.
# 20 Q: I BET IT IS. BUT YOU KEEP A LIST OF THAT, DON'T YOU?
# 22 Q: AND YOU REVIEWED YOUR RECORDS BEFORE YOU CAME HERE TO TESTIFY, DIDN'T YOU?
# 23 A: I'VE LOOKED THROUGH THEM, YES.
# 24 Q: YOU JUST LOOKED THROUGH THEM?
# 26 Q: FOR THIS TESTIMONY, YOU JUST PERUSED YOUR RECORDS BEFORE YOU GOT ON THE WITNESS STAND TO TESTIFY?
# 28 MR. DARDEN: ARGUMENTATIVE, YOUR HONOR. OBJECTION.
# 29 THE COURT: INTERESTING.
# 30 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DO YOU NEED SOME MORE TIME TO PREPARE YOURSELF FOR CROSS-EXAMINATION?
# 31 MR. DARDEN: YOUR HONOR, THIS IS ARGUMENTATIVE.
# 32 THE COURT: THAT IS. SUSTAINED.
# 33 MR. SHAPIRO: I'M JUST BEING COURTEOUS.
# 34 MR. DARDEN: MOTION TO STRIKE, YOUR HONOR.
# 35 THE COURT: PROCEED, COUNSEL.
# 36 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: ALONG THE LINES OF -- THE KNIFE EVIDENCE, WHAT OTHER EFFORTS WERE MADE TO -- WHAT WERE THE EFFORTS THAT YOU HAVE INSTITUTED TO LOOK FOR THE KNIFE THAT YOU BELIEVE WAS THE MURDER WEAPON IN THIS CASE?
# 37 A: WHAT EFFORTS HAVE I MADE?
# 39 A: WELL, A SEARCH WARRANT WAS OBTAINED AND THE -- MR. SIMPSON'S RESIDENCE WAS SEARCHED AS WELL AS THE GROUNDS.
# 41 A: TWICE. A WALK-THROUGH SEARCH WAS DONE FROM BUNDY TO ROCKINGHAM BY SEVERAL RECRUIT OFFICERS WHERE WE WERE SEARCHING THE STREETS, THE SHRUBBERY, THE STORM DRAINS, SO ON AND SO FORTH.
# 42 Q: WOULD YOU DESCRIBE HOW THAT EFFORT WAS MOUNTED AND WHAT INSTRUCTIONS WERE GIVEN TO THE RECRUITS?
# 43 A: HOW IT WAS MOUNTED?
# 45 A: WE REQUESTED THROUGH THE LOS ANGELES POLICE ACADEMY FOR A NUMBER OF RECRUIT OFFICERS TO ASSIST US IN DOING A WALK THROUGH BETWEEN BUNDY AND ROCKINGHAM. WE INSTRUCTED THE -- THE RECRUIT OFFICERS TO LOOK FOR ANY BLOOD EVIDENCE, ANY CLOTHING THAT MAY CONTAIN BLOOD, ANY WEAPONS THAT MAY CONTAIN BLOOD OR ANYTHING AT ALL THAT APPEARED TO BE OUT OF THE ORDINARY OR SUSPICIOUS.
# 46 Q: ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE TERM "GRID"?
# 48 Q: WHAT IS -- A "GRID" IS A WAY TO MAP OUT CERTAIN AREAS TO BE SEARCHED TO MAKE SURE YOU DON'T MISS ANYTHING; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
# 50 Q: AND THAT'S A VERY BASIC INVESTIGATIVE TECHNIQUE; IS IT NOT?
# 51 A: YES, SIR, THAT'S CORRECT.
# 52 Q: AND I TAKE IT THAT YOU SAT DOWN WITH THESE RECRUITS WITH A GRID SO THE AREAS THAT YOU WERE INTERESTED IN BETWEEN BUNDY AND ROCKINGHAM COULD BE THOROUGHLY SEARCHED; IS THAT CORRECT?
# 53 A: NO. THE WAY IT WAS DONE IS, THE AREA WAS SET OUT IN BLOCKS. WE HAD GROUPS WITH A DETECTIVE IN CHARGE OF EACH GROUP AND -- WELL, ESSENTIALLY, IT WOULD BE A GRID BECAUSE WE DID IT BY BLOCKS. WE DIDN'T ACTUALLY GRID IT, BUT WE SET IT OUT IN A MAP BY BLOCKS AND THEY WERE SEARCHED.
# 54 Q: HOW MANY DIFFERENT BLOCKS WERE SEARCHED?
# 55 A: I -- I CAN'T TELL YOU EXACTLY.
# 56 Q: YOU HAVE A DIAGRAM OF THE BLOCKS THAT WERE SEARCHED?
# 57 A: I BELIEVE IT'S CONTAINED IN THE MURDER BOOK, YES.
# 58 Q: OKAY. WOULD YOU -- WOULD IT TAKE YOU LONG TO LOCATE THAT DIAGRAM? IF IT WOULD, WE'LL WAIT. I DON'T WANT TO INTERRUPT THE JURY TIME.
# 59 A: YEAH, IT MAY BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT BOOK IT'S IN AT THIS TIME.
# 60 Q: MAYBE -- YOUR PARTNER'S HERE. MAYBE HE CAN HELP US.
# 62 Q: FIND THAT SO WE CAN GO ON. HOW MANY DETECTIVES WERE THERE FOR EACH GROUP?
# 63 A: YOU KNOW, I WASN'T THERE, BUT I BELIEVE THERE WAS ONE OR POSSIBLY TWO ASSIGNED TO EACH GROUP.
# 64 Q: AND HOW MANY GROUPS WERE THERE?
# 65 A: I CAN'T TELL YOU THAT RIGHT NOW. IT WAS DONE ON TWO SEPARATE TIMES I BELIEVE.
# 66 Q: AND THE PURPOSE WAS TO TRACK THE AREA THAT YOU HAD SHOWN US THIS NICE VIDEO OF YOU DRIVING AROUND ON?
# 68 Q: REMEMBER YOU JUST SAW THAT?
# 69 A: YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
# 70 Q: AND THAT'S THE AREA YOU WANTED TO SEARCH?
# 71 A: YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
# 72 Q: NOW, YOU LOOKED IN THE STORM DRAINS?
# 73 A: THE OFFICERS DID, YES.
# 74 Q: LOOKED UNDER THE MANHOLES?
# 75 A: I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THEY DID THAT OR NOT.
# 76 Q: WELL, WHO INSTRUCTED THEM WHAT TO LOOK FOR?
# 77 A: THE INFORMATION WAS RELAYED FROM US TO THE DETECTIVES THAT WAS RUNNING THE OPERATION.
# 78 Q: WHAT DID YOU -- YOU'RE IN CHARGE. YOU TOLD US THAT.
# 80 Q: THAT'S YOUR SEARCH, CORRECT?
# 81 A: IT'S PART OF THE COLLATERAL EFFORT THAT'S GOING ON AT THAT TIME, YES.
# 82 Q: YOUR SEARCH. I MEAN, IS THAT A FAIR TERM OR NOT?
# 83 A: WELL, I WASN'T THERE, SIR. IT WAS PART OF THE COLLATERAL EFFORT THAT WAS BEING HANDLED AT THAT TIME.
# 84 Q: I UNDERSTAND YOU'RE NOT THERE WITH YOUR FLASHLIGHT ON YOUR HANDS AND KNEES, BUT YOU'RE DIRECTING THE SEARCH; ARE YOU NOT?
# 85 A: DIRECTING IT EX PARTE, YES. I GUESS -- I GUESS YOU COULD SAY THAT, YES.
# 86 Q: WELL, YOU'RE THE ONE -- IT WAS YOUR IDEA TO DO THE SEARCH, WASN'T IT?
# 87 A: WELL, IT WAS A GROUP IDEA BETWEEN OUR SUPERVISOR AND MYSELF, MY PARTNER, OUR CAPTAIN. IT WAS DISCUSSED AND YES, IT WAS DONE.
# 88 Q: SO THIS IS A PRETTY HIGH-LEVEL DECISION?
# 89 A: I -- WHAT DO YOU MEAN, "HIGH LEVEL"?
# 90 Q: TO -- WELL, LET ME GO ON. IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT, LET'S GO TO SOMETHING ELSE.
# 91 THE COURT: MR. SHAPIRO, THE GRATUITOUS COMMENTS AREN'T NECESSARY.
# 92 MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU. I'M SORRY, YOUR HONOR.
# 93 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: THIS SEARCH AS TO WHAT YOU WERE GOING TO LOOK FOR, DID YOU TELL SOMEBODY WHAT YOU WANTED TO LOOK FOR?
# 94 A: YES, AS I TOLD YOU BEFORE.
# 95 Q: OKAY. AND DID YOU TELL THEM WHERE YOU WANTED THE PEOPLE TO LOOK FOR THIS?
# 97 Q: OKAY. WHERE DID YOU TELL THEM YOU WANTED THEM TO LOOK?
# 98 A: I TOLD THEM I WANTED THE POSSIBLE ROUTES. THERE'S MORE THAN ONE POSSIBLE ROUTE WALKED. I WANTED THE SHRUBBERY CHECKED, I WANTED THE LAWNS CHECKED, I WANTED THE STREETS CHECKED AND I WANTED THE DRAINS CHECKED.
# 99 Q: WHAT ABOUT THE GUTTERS IN HOUSES?
# 101 Q: WHAT ABOUT ROOFTOPS?
# 104 A: BECAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE MANPOWER TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT OVER A LARGE AREA LIKE THAT.
# 106 A: NO. I DIDN'T ASK.
# 107 Q: AND THIS WAS A FOOT SEARCH?
# 108 A: THAT'S CORRECT, YES.
# 109 Q: AND NOTHING RELATING TO WHAT YOU WOULD CONSIDER A MURDER WEAPON WAS FOUND?
# 111 Q: BUT WEAPONS WERE FOUND?
# 112 A: I DON'T KNOW THAT'S TRUE.
# 113 Q: YOU DON'T KNOW IF WEAPONS WERE FOUND OR NOT?
# 114 A: NO. ON THAT SEARCH, I DON'T KNOW.
# 115 Q: WERE ANY WEAPONS EVER BROUGHT TO YOUR ATTENTION IN THAT AREA THAT CONTAINED THE BLOOD OF SOMEONE OTHER THAN O.J. SIMPSON, NICOLE BROWN OR RONALD GOLDMAN?
# 116 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. IT'S IRRELEVANT, YOUR HONOR.
# 117 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 118 MR. DARDEN: MAY I CONFER WITH MR. SHAPIRO FOR ONE MOMENT?
# 120 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.) # 121 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WERE THERE ANY WRITTEN INSTRUCTIONS GIVEN TO THE RECRUITS THAT WERE SEARCHING?
# 122 A: I DON'T KNOW THAT FOR SURE. I WASN'T THERE.
# 123 Q: LET ME APPROACH WITH AN EXHIBIT THAT HAS BEEN PULLED, AND THIS APPEARS TO BE A MAP OF THE AREA. IS THAT THE AREA THAT YOU INSTRUCTED OTHERS TO SEARCH?
# 124 A: YES. IT'S PART OF THE AREA, YES.
# 125 Q: PART OF THE AREA EXCEEDED THAT?
# 126 A: NO. I THINK THE AREA WOULD BE A LITTLE SMALLER THAN THIS.
# 127 Q: WELL, IS THERE ANY MAP THAT SHOWS WHAT AREA THAT YOU WANTED SEARCHED? THIS WAS HANDED TO ME BY MR. DARDEN.
# 128 A: I THINK -- I THINK WHAT HAPPENED -- THIS WOULD SHOW THE AREA THAT I WANTED SEARCH. I THINK WHAT HAPPENED OR THE WAY IT WAS DONE IS, THE DETECTIVES, AFTER WE HAD ASKED FOR THIS TO BE DONE, HAD MAPPED OUT THE POSSIBLE ROUTES BETWEEN THE TWO LOCATIONS AND HAD CREATED GROUPS OF RECRUIT OFFICERS THAT WALKED THESE CERTAIN AREAS. AND I BELIEVE EACH -- EACH GROUP WAS GIVEN A MAP OF THE AREA THAT THEY WERE TO SEARCH AND I THINK THAT'S IN ONE OF THE BOOKS. I'M NOT POSITIVE OF THAT.
# 129 Q: NOW, REGARDING THE SEARCH FOR A KNIFE, YOU WERE AWARE THAT MR. SIMPSON FLEW TO CHICAGO?
# 131 Q: DID YOU CAUSE THAT AIRPLANE TO BE SEARCHED?
# 132 A: I BELIEVE IT WAS SEARCHED, YES.
# 133 Q: IS THERE ANY QUESTION IN YOUR MIND AS TO WHETHER IT WAS SEARCHED OR NOT?
# 134 A: WELL, I KNOW WE HAD AN INVESTIGATION GOING ON IN CHICAGO. I KNOW WE HAD DETECTIVES BACK THERE DOING SEARCHES AND THERE WAS AN AIRPLANE STORAGE FACILITY THAT WAS CHECKED BECAUSE THERE WAS A BROKEN KNIFE FOUND IN IT. BUT AS FAR AS THE AIRPLANE HE TOOK, I DON'T KNOW THAT -- I BELIEVE IT WAS CLEANED AFTER IT GOT THERE ANYWAY. SO I DON'T THINK IT WAS SEARCHED.
# 135 Q: YOU DON'T THINK IT WAS SEARCHED?
# 136 A: NO. I DON'T THINK THE PLANE THAT HE FLEW ON WAS SEARCHED.
# 137 Q: WOULD YOU CHECK -- DID YOU TAKE -- MAKE ANY NOTES ON THIS?
# 139 Q: DID YOU MAKE ANY NOTES IN THIS ENTIRE CASE?
# 140 A: YES, SIR, I DID.
# 141 Q: DO YOU HAVE THOSE NOTES WITH YOU?
# 142 A: THEY'RE CONTAINED IN THE BOOKS.
# 143 Q: YOUR PERSONAL NOTES?
# 145 Q: AND YOU MADE NOTES ALL ALONG FROM THE 13TH ON?
# 147 Q: WHAT NOTES DID YOU TAKE ON THE 13TH? WHAT DID YOU RECORD?
# 148 A: I WROTE A SEARCH WARRANT AND I STARTED A PARTIAL -- A PARTIAL STATEMENT OF KATO KAELIN.
# 149 Q: IS A SEARCH WARRANT NOTES?
# 151 Q: YOU CONSIDER THOSE NOTES, OKAY.
# 152 A: WELL, IT WAS PART OF THE INVESTIGATION THAT I WROTE A SEARCH WARRANT ON, YES.
# 153 Q: SO THAT'S PART OF YOUR NOTES. AND THEN YOU HAD NOTES ON THE STATEMENT WITH KATO KAELIN?
# 155 Q: WHAT OTHER NOTES DID YOU TAKE ON THE 13TH?
# 156 A: I THINK THE ONLY THING -- THE ONLY OTHER THING I DID WAS PART OF THE CHRONOLOGICAL OF THE CASE.
# 157 Q: PART OF THE CHRONOLOGICAL RECORD?
# 159 Q: THAT'S ABOUT ALL YOU -- THE ONLY NOTES YOU'VE TAKEN IN THIS WHOLE CASE, ISN'T IT?
# 160 A: WELL, I'VE WRITTEN A LOT OF STATEMENTS.
# 161 Q: I'M TALKING ABOUT NOTES, SIR.
# 162 A: YEAH. THAT'S CORRECT.
# 163 Q: DID YOU WRITE A REPORT IN THIS CASE?
# 166 A: THE FOLLOW-UP REPORT OR WHICH REPORT?
# 167 Q: HOW MANY REPORTS DID YOU WRITE IN THIS CASE?
# 168 A: WELL, I MADE THE DEATH REPORTS, I MADE THE CRIME REPORTS FOR BOTH VICTIMS. I ASSISTED MY PARTNER WITH THE FOLLOW-UP REPORT AND I'VE WRITTEN SEVERAL -- I DON'T KNOW HOW MANY, BUT A LOT OF STATEMENTS IN THIS CASE.
# 169 Q: OKAY. I WOULD ASK YOU AT THE NOON RECESS TO PULL EVERYTHING YOU'VE WRITTEN AND PROVIDE US WITH ALL YOUR NOTES IF YOU WOULDN'T MIND.
# 170 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 171 THE COURT: WELL, WE'LL TAKE THAT UP LATER.
# 172 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: IN CHICAGO -- WELL, YOU INDICATED THAT THERE WAS A SEARCH OF SOME TYPE OF TRASH THAT REVEALED A BROKEN KNIFE?
# 173 A: NO. I THINK IT WAS A HOLDING TANK ON AN AIRPLANE THAT WAS -- THAT WAS FOUND BY AIRLINE EMPLOYEES.
# 174 Q: DO YOU RECALL REVIEWING A REPORT THAT SAID THAT THERE WAS A CONTAINER THAT HAD ALL THE REFUGE FOR A MONTH FROM ALL THE PLANES THAT WERE FLOWN BY THE AIRLINES THAT TRANSPORTED MR. SIMPSON OF ALL THE REFUGE AND THAT WAS ALL SEARCHED?
# 175 A: THAT IS A POSSIBILITY, YEAH.
# 176 Q: WELL, DO YOU RECALL THAT BEING DONE?
# 177 A: I SAID THAT WAS A POSSIBILITY. I -- I -- I HAD DETECTIVES BACK THERE DOING THE WORK.
# 178 Q: BUT YOU READ THAT REPORT, DIDN'T YOU?
# 179 A: I PROBABLY HAVE, YES.
# 180 Q: AND IN THAT, THEY FOUND A BROKEN PIECE OF A KNIFE?
# 181 A: I BELIEVE THAT'S RIGHT, YES.
# 182 Q: THAT WAS NOT RELATED TO THIS CASE, CORRECT?
# 183 A: I DON'T BELIEVE IT'S RELATED.
# 184 Q: THAT WAS A PRETTY THOROUGH WAY OF SEARCHING, WASN'T IT?
# 186 Q: THAT WAS A THOROUGH SEARCH, WASN'T IT?
# 187 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
# 188 THE COURT: WELL, IT'S VAGUE.
# 189 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU CONSIDER THAT TO BE A THOROUGH SEARCH OF THE TRASH?
# 190 MR. DARDEN: SAME OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 191 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 192 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHAT OTHER SEARCHES TOOK PLACE IN CHICAGO?
# 193 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 195 MR. DARDEN: HEARSAY, UNLESS HE WAS PRESENT.
# 196 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 197 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: THERE WAS SEVERAL SEARCHES CONDUCTED BY DETECTIVE LUPER AND DETECTIVE LEFALL.
# 198 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: TELL US ABOUT THOSE.
# 199 A: I WASN'T THERE. I CAN'T TELL YOU ABOUT THEM.
# 200 Q: YOU'VE READ REPORTS ABOUT THOSE AND THEY'RE PART OF YOUR INVESTIGATION, AREN'T THEY?
# 201 A: I'VE READ NOTES ON THEM, YES.
# 202 Q: THINGS YOU REVIEWED?
# 204 Q: OKAY. WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT TOOK PLACE?
# 205 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 206 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WERE THOSE THOROUGH SEARCHES?
# 207 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. CALLING FOR SPECULATION.
# 208 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU DIRECT THAT THERE BE THOROUGH SEARCHES OF AREAS IN CHICAGO WHERE MR. SIMPSON MIGHT HAVE VISITED?
# 209 A: I DON'T THINK I WAS AWARE OF AREAS THAT HE MAY HAVE VISITED OTHER THAN THE HOTEL.
# 210 Q: WELL, THAT'S ONE AREA. DID YOU ASK THAT A SEARCH BE CONDUCTED OF THE HOTEL?
# 211 A: A SEARCH WAS CONDUCTED OF THE HOTEL.
# 212 Q: DID YOU ASK THAT A SEARCH BE CONDUCTED OF ANY SURROUNDING AREAS OF THE HOTEL?
# 213 A: NO, I WAS NOT AWARE OF THAT. THAT WAS DONE WITHOUT MY DIRECTION.
# 214 Q: SO YOU ARE AWARE THAT A SEARCH WAS DONE OF SURROUNDING AREAS, BUT NOT --
# 216 Q: -- NOT AT YOUR DIRECTION?
# 217 A: WELL, IT WAS DONE AS PART OF THE INVESTIGATION OF THE -- OF THE DETECTIVES THAT WERE THERE.
# 218 Q: YOU DIDN'T THINK THAT WAS NECESSARY?
# 219 A: NO, SIR. I WAS NOT AWARE OF IT. I WASN'T THERE. I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON IN CHICAGO.
# 220 Q: WELL, YOU WANTED TO KNOW, DIDN'T YOU? YOU WANTED TO BE INFORMED OF WHAT WAS GOING ON IN CHICAGO I TAKE IT?
# 221 A: WELL, I WAS INFORMED AFTER IT WAS OVER WITH, YES.
# 222 Q: AND YOU WERE INFORMED THAT A SEARCH OF THE AREA AND LOTS ADJACENT TO THE HOTEL WERE THOROUGHLY SEARCHED; WERE YOU NOT?
# 223 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 224 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: YES.
# 225 MR. DARDEN: MOTION TO STRIKE, YOUR HONOR.
# 226 THE COURT: THE JURY IS TO DISREGARD THAT. THAT'S HEARSAY, MR. SHAPIRO. PROCEED.
# 227 MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
# 228 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND IN CONJUNCTION WITH ALL THESE SEARCHES FOR THE KNIVES THAT YOU TOLD US ABOUT, WOULD YOU SAY AN EQUAL SEARCH WAS DONE FOR BLOODY CLOTHING?
# 229 A: THAT WAS PART OF THE -- PART OF THE REASON FOR SEARCHING, YES.
# 230 Q: AND HAS ANY BLOODY CLOTHING THAT RELATES TO THIS CASE EVER BEEN FOUND?
# 232 Q: OTHER THAN WHAT YOU FOUND IN YOUR SEARCH OF THE ROCKINGHAM HOUSE, WAS THERE ANYTHING FOUND AS A RESULT OF THE SEARCH?
# 234 Q: RELATING TO BLOODY CLOTHING.
# 236 Q: WE'LL GET TO THAT IN A MINUTE. HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH RESOURCES TO LOOK FOR BLOODY CLOTHING?
# 237 A: THE SAME RESOURCES THAT I HAD TO LOOK FOR THE MURDER WEAPON.
# 238 Q: WHEN YOU GOT YOUR CALL AT ABOUT 3:00 O'CLOCK, YOU WERE AT HOME?
# 239 A: THAT'S CORRECT, YES.
# 240 Q: ON JUNE THE 12TH, JUNE 13TH, EARLY MORNING.
# 242 Q: THE EARLY MORNING OF JUNE 13TH. WHAT AREA DO YOU RESIDE IN? I DON'T WANT TO KNOW SPECIFICALLY, BUT WHAT GENERAL AREA?
# 243 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. IRRELEVANT, YOUR HONOR.
# 244 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 245 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO GET FROM WHERE YOU WERE TO THE BUNDY LOCATION?
# 246 A: APPROXIMATELY 40, 45 MINUTES.
# 247 Q: DID YOU SHOWER BEFORE YOU CAME, SHAVED BEFORE YOU CAME OR JUST GET UP AND COME?
# 248 A: I SHOWERED AND SHAVED.
# 249 Q: DID ANYONE GIVE YOU DIRECTIONS TO GET TO BUNDY OR DID YOU KNOW HOW TO GET THERE?
# 250 A: I WAS GIVEN DIRECTIONS BY DETECTIVE HEADQUARTERS ON THE RADIO.
# 251 Q: ARE YOU FAMILIAR -- AS A DETECTIVE IN WEST LOS ANGELES, YOU WORKED THERE FOR THREE YEARS; IS THAT CORRECT?
# 253 Q: AND PART OF THE REQUIREMENTS OF A DETECTIVE IS TO BECOME FAMILIAR WITH THE AREA THAT YOU'RE WORKING; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
# 254 A: OH, I THINK THAT'S FOR ANY POLICE OFFICER, YES.
# 255 Q: I MEAN THAT WAS -- THAT APPLIED TO YOU ALSO?
# 256 A: WELL, I WAS NOT A PATROL OFFICER THERE. SO A LOT OF -- A LOT AREAS AT WEST L.A. I WAS NEVER IN.
# 257 Q: YOU WOULDN'T SAY SAN VICENTE IS A -- SAN VICENTE IS A MAIN THOROUGHFARE THAT YOU WERE --
# 258 A: SAN VICENTE IS WELL KNOWN TO ME.
# 259 Q: -- THAT YOU WERE AWARE OF?
# 261 Q: AND BUNDY IS A MAJOR STREET THAT YOU WERE AWARE OF?
# 263 Q: SO WHEN SOMEBODY SAID IT'S NEAR SAN VICENTE AND BUNDY AND HERE'S THE ADDRESS, YOU WERE ABLE TO FIND THAT WITHOUT GETTING SPECIFIC INSTRUCTIONS FROM YOUR HOME; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
# 264 A: WELL, YES, I COULD. BUT I ASKED FOR DIRECTIONS BEFORE I GOT THERE BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER IT WAS NORTH OR SOUTH OF WILSHIRE BOULEVARD. THEY JUST GAVE ME A STREET ADDRESS.
# 265 Q: OKAY. SO YOU WANTED A LOCATION, BUT YOU KNEW THE GENERAL AREA?
# 266 A: I KNEW THE GENERAL AREA, YES.
# 267 Q: AND IT WASN'T DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO FIND?
# 268 A: NO, SIR, IT WASN'T.
# 269 Q: YOU FOUND IT WITH VIRTUALLY NO TROUBLE?
# 271 Q: WHEN YOU GOT THAT CALL, YOU WERE TOLD THAT YOU WERE GOING TO BE TAKING OVER THE INVESTIGATION OF THE DEATH OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON; IS THAT CORRECT?
# 273 Q: DID YOU ISSUE ANY ORDERS IMMEDIATELY UPON RECEIVING THAT CALL AS TO WHAT PEOPLE SHOULD DO WHO WERE PRESENTLY AT THE SCENE?
# 274 A: NO, SIR, I DIDN'T.
# 275 Q: AND YOU WERE TOLD THERE WERE ALREADY OFFICERS AT THE SCENE?
# 277 Q: AND YOU'RE AWARE THAT TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE IN A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION; ARE YOU NOT?
# 278 A: AS A GENERAL STATEMENT, YES.
# 279 Q: AND THAT THE MORE TIME GOES BY, THE GREATER CHANCE OF CONTAMINATION OF EVIDENCE OR DESTRUCTION OF EVIDENCE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
# 280 A: I -- NO, I WOULDN'T SAY THAT'S A TOTAL CORRECT STATEMENT. IT DEPENDS ON THE EVIDENCE. AND NORMALLY WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE MORE TIME THAT GOES BY, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A COLD TRAIL.
# 281 Q: YOU KNOW THERE ARE GENERAL RULES TO FOLLOW IN A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION?
# 282 A: ABSOLUTELY, YES.
# 283 Q: AND YOU WERE CHOSEN BECAUSE YOU WERE ONE OF THE MOST SENIOR HOMICIDE INVESTIGATORS; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
# 284 A: NO. I WAS CHOSEN BECAUSE I WAS ON CALL THAT WEEKEND. THAT HAPPENED TO BE MY ON-CALL WEEKEND.
# 285 Q: WELL, ISN'T YOUR UNIT A SPECIALIZED UNIT, SIR?
# 287 Q: AND ISN'T THAT THE UNIT THAT HANDLES ALL THE SPECIAL CASES OF HOMICIDE?
# 288 A: MOST OF THE TIME, YES.
# 289 Q: AND AREN'T YOU ONE OF THE MOST SENIOR MEMBERS OF THAT UNIT?
# 291 Q: AND IMMEDIATELY UPON GETTING THAT CALL, IT WAS TIME FOR ACTION, WASN'T IT?
# 292 A: WELL, IT WAS TIME TO PREPARE MYSELF AND RESPOND, YES.
# 293 Q: BUT THERE WERE THINGS THAT HAD TO BE DONE BECAUSE YOU KNEW YOU WERE AN HOUR AWAY, DIDN'T YOU?
# 295 Q: SO THERE WERE THINGS THAT HAD TO BE DONE IMMEDIATELY TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT CRIME SCENE WAS PROTECTED; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
# 296 A: WELL, I'M -- I -- IT'S BEEN MY EXPERIENCE IN 26 YEARS THAT THE CRIME SCENES ARE PROTECTED BY UNIFORM THAT ARRIVES THERE BEFORE ANYBODY. Q: BUT YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE RESPONSIBILITY AND YOU WANT IT DONE YOUR WAY, DON'T YOU?
# 297 A: WHEN I GET THERE, YES.
# 298 Q: YOU DON'T WANT TO RELY ON SOMEBODY ELSE'S JUDGMENT IN DOING SOMETHING, DO YOU?
# 299 A: WELL, I HAVE TO DO THAT EVERY DAY, SIR.
# 300 Q: WELL, DIDN'T YOU TELL US EVEN REGARDING DETECTIVE FUHRMAN THAT YOU WOULDN'T RELY ON WHAT HE WAS DOING?
# 301 A: NOT AFTER I'M THERE, BUT I HAVE TO RELY ON PEOPLE BEFORE I GET THERE, DEFINITELY.
# 302 Q: THOUGH IT WAS NOT ANYTHING THAT YOU DID TO CONTACT THE PEOPLE AND SAY AT LEAST, "SEAL THE CRIME SCENE AND MAKE SURE NO ONE ENTERS BEFORE I GET THERE." DID YOU GIVE THAT INSTRUCTION?
# 304 Q: IN YOUR TRAINING AS A POLICE OFFICER AND HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, YOU HAVE LEARNED THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO KEEP DETAILED NOTES OF AN INVESTIGATION; HAVE YOU NOT?
# 306 Q: AND YOU'VE TOLD US NOW THAT YOU HAVE KEPT DETAILED NOTES IN THIS CASE?
# 307 A: I DIDN'T SAY THAT, NO.
# 308 Q: HAVE YOU KEPT DETAILED NOTES?
# 309 A: THIS WAS AN UNUSUAL CIRCUMSTANCE. NORMALLY I WOULD. THIS ONE, I DIDN'T HAVE THE CHANCE TO.
KEY QUOTE # 310 Q: SO YOUR ANSWER IS?
# 312 Q: DID YOU DESIGNATE SOMEBODY, AS YOU'VE BEEN TRAINED TO DO, TO BE A DESIGNATED NOTE TAKER?
# 314 Q: WHO DID YOU DESIGNATE AS A NOTE TAKER?
# 315 A: THE CRIMINALIST.
# 316 Q: THE CRIMINALIST.
# 318 Q: AND WHERE IN THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT MANUAL DOES IT SAY THAT THE LEAD DETECTIVE IN A HOMICIDE CASE SHALL DESIGNATE A CRIMINALIST AS A NOTE TAKER?
# 319 A: THE CRIMINALIST IN THE HOMICIDE MANUAL OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT IS THE -- ONCE HE'S ASSIGNED A CASE, IS THE PERSON THAT COLLECTS, PRESERVES, NOTES, MEASURES AND RECORDS WHERE EVIDENCE IS FOUND AND WHERE EVIDENCE IS RECOVERED FROM.
# 320 Q: DID YOU UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION?
# 321 A: YES, I DID, AND THAT'S WHY THE CRIMINALIST DID IT.
# 322 Q: SO YOU'RE SAYING THAT THAT IS DESIGNATED IN THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT MANUAL; THAT A LEAD INVESTIGATOR SHALL DESIGNATE THE CRIMINALIST AS A NOTE TAKER?
# 323 A: I DIDN'T SAY "SHALL." I SAID I COULD PROBABLY DESIGNATE ANYBODY THAT I WANTED TO. THAT MORNING, I DID THE CRIMINALIST.
# 324 Q: IS THAT WHAT IT SAYS; THAT SOMEBODY OTHER THAN SWORN LAPD TRAINED PERSONNEL SHALL BE DESIGNATED AS A NOTE TAKER?
# 325 A: IT DOESN'T SAY NOTE TAKER. IT SAYS FOR COLLECTION, PRESERVATION AND -- AND TAKING OF THE EVIDENCE.
# 326 Q: DIDN'T YOU TELL US THAT THE CRIMINALIST DIDN'T GET TO ROCKINGHAM UNTIL 7:00 O'CLOCK?
# 328 Q: WHO WAS THE NOTE TAKER AT BUNDY?
# 329 A: MY PARTNER ULTIMATELY.
# 332 Q: SO YOU DESIGNATED DETECTIVE LANGE AS THE NOTE TAKER?
# 333 A: NO, I DIDN'T DESIGNATE HIM. HE --
# 334 Q: HE DESIGNATED --
# 335 A: HE DESIGNATED HIMSELF.
# 336 Q: HE VOLUNTEERED FOR THAT JOB. SO HE TOOK THE NOTES AT BUNDY?
# 338 Q: AND DID HE TAKE THE NOTES AT ROCKINGHAM UP UNTIL 7:00 O'CLOCK?
# 340 Q: WHO TOOK THE NOTES AT ROCKINGHAM UP TO 7:00 O'CLOCK?
# 342 Q: THAT'S A VIOLATION OF DEPARTMENT PROCEDURE, ISN'T IT?
# 343 A: NO, I WOULDN'T SAY IT IS.
# 344 Q: NOW, MANY TIMES, THE PURPOSE OF TAKING NOTES, DETAILED NOTES IN A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION IS, MANY TIMES, THESE INVESTIGATIONS TAKE A LONG PERIOD OF TIME; DO THEY NOT?
# 345 A: YES, THAT'S CORRECT.
# 346 Q: AND MANY TIMES, CASES THAT ARE FILED DON'T COME TO TRIAL FOR YEARS; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
# 349 A: I GUESS -- I GUESS YOU COULD SAY ONE OR TWO YEARS, YEAH. THAT'S A FAIR STATEMENT.
# 350 Q: AND IT WOULD BE VERY HARD WITH ALL THE MATERIAL THAT YOU'VE HAD TO DIGEST IN THIS CASE TO REMEMBER ALL THE IMPORTANT DETAILS, WOULDN'T IT, WITHOUT NOTES?
# 351 A: IT'S ACCORDING TO WHAT DETAILS YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. I REMEMBER THIS CASE VERY, VERY WELL.
# 352 Q: SO YOU TOOK IT UPON YOURSELF JUST NOT TO TAKE NOTES AT ROCKINGHAM?
# 353 A: NO. THAT WASN'T THE SITUATION AT ALL.
# 354 Q: WHEN YOU GOT TO BUNDY AND ARRIVED THERE AT 4:05 I BELIEVE YOU TOLD US IN THE MORNING, YOU WERE NOW IN CHARGE OF THIS SITUATION FOR ONE HOUR; IS THAT CORRECT?
# 355 A: FROM 3:00 O'CLOCK UNTIL 4:05?
# 356 Q: WHEN YOU GOT THE NOTIFICATION, YOU KNEW THAT WAS YOUR CASE, WASN'T IT, AT 3:00 O'CLOCK?
# 357 A: I GUESS YOU COULD HYPOTHETICALLY SAY THAT, YES.
# 358 Q: I DON'T WANT TO GUESS. I WANT TO KNOW. I THINK THE JURY WANTS TO KNOW MORE IMPORTANTLY. WHOSE CASE WAS IT AT 3:00 O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING?
# 359 A: IT WASN'T MY CASE UNTIL I ARRIVED THERE AND WAS INSTRUCTED BY MY SUPERVISOR THAT WE WERE TAKING THE CASE.
# 360 Q: SO YOUR CASE DIDN'T BEGIN UNTIL WHEN?
# 362 Q: OKAY. WHOSE CASE WAS IT FROM 3:00 O'CLOCK TO 4:05?
# 363 A: IT WAS BEING SECURED FOR THE ARRIVAL OF ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION.
# 364 Q: WHOSE CASE WAS IT FROM 3:00 O'CLOCK TO 4:05, SIR?
# 365 A: ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION.
# 367 A: YES, BUT I CAN'T PHYSICALLY TAKE CHARGE UNTIL I'M ON THE SCENE.
# 368 Q: SO FOR AT LEAST AN HOUR AND FIVE MINUTES, THERE IS NOBODY IN CHARGE OF THE BUNDY CRIME SCENE WHERE TWO BLOODY MURDERS HAVE TAKEN PLACE?
# 369 A: THAT'S NOT TRUE.
# 370 Q: WELL, WHO WAS IN CHARGE?
# 371 A: WEST LOS ANGELES DIVISION HAD SECURITY ON THE CRIME SCENE.
# 372 Q: SO THEY WERE IN CHARGE OF THE INVESTIGATION AT THAT TIME?
# 373 A: NO. THEY WERE IN CHARGE OF SECURING THE CRIME SCENE AT THAT TIME.
# 374 Q: SO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING IS, FOR AN HOUR AND FIVE MINUTES, NOBODY INVESTIGATED BUNDY?
# 376 Q: WHEN TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE IN A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION.
# 377 A: BOY, IT WOULD BE A PERFECT WORLD IF I COULD HAVE BEEN THERE AT 10:00, 10:30. IT WOULD HAVE BEEN A PERFECT WORLD.
KEY QUOTE # 378 Q: HOW MANY MEMBERS OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT WERE THERE WHEN YOU ARRIVED?
# 379 A: APPROXIMATELY 15.
# 380 Q: ALL STANDING AROUND.
# 381 A: THAT'S CORRECT, YES.
# 382 Q: WITH TWO PEOPLE WHO HAVE HAD THEIR THROATS SLASHED; IS THAT CORRECT?
# 384 Q: NOBODY IS LOOKING FOR ANY SUSPECTS?
# 385 A: WELL, I DON'T THINK THAT'S A FAIR STATEMENT. I THINK A CANVASS WAS GOING ON OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD. THEY WERE ATTEMPTING TO LOCATE WITNESSES, ATTEMPTING TO ELICIT INFORMATION THAT WOULD HELP IN THE INVESTIGATION UP TO THAT POINT.
# 386 Q: YOU THINK OR YOU KNOW?
# 387 A: WELL, I KNOW IT WAS GOING ON.
# 388 Q: WHAT ABOUT BEGINNING THE CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION? THAT HOUR AND FIVE MINUTES, COULD IMPORTANT EVIDENCE BECOME DESTROYED?
# 389 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
# 390 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 391 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHAT COULD HAPPEN TO EVIDENCE IN YOUR ESTIMATION IN THE PERIOD OF AN HOUR AND FIVE MINUTES IN A CASE LIKE THIS?
# 392 MR. DARDEN: SAME OBJECTION.
# 393 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 394 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DOES -- DO YOU HAVE ANY EXPERIENCE IN EVIDENCE DEGRADING? DO YOU KNOW WHAT THAT TERM MEANS, "DEGRADING OF EVIDENCE"?
# 396 Q: WHAT DOES IT MEAN?
# 397 A: THAT'S THE -- THE QUALITY OF THE EVIDENCE ITSELF BEGINS TO DETERIORATE. THAT COULD HAPPEN IMMEDIATELY UPON, FOR INSTANCE, BLOOD EVIDENCE STRIKING PAVEMENT. THAT COULD START IMMEDIATELY.
# 398 Q: AND WOULD YOU AGREE, SIR, THAT THE LONGER YOU WAIT, THE GREATER THE CHANCES THAT THEY'LL BE DETERIORATION OF EVIDENCE?
# 399 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. NO FOUNDATION, SPECULATION.
# 400 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 401 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: AGAIN, I THINK THAT WOULD DEPEND ON WHERE THE EVIDENCE WAS.
# 402 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHAT ABOUT WEATHER CONDITIONS? COULD WEATHER CONDITIONS MOVE -- WELL, LET ME ASK YOU THIS AS A FOUNDATIONAL QUESTION. DO YOU KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GROSS EVIDENCE AND TRACE EVIDENCE?
# 404 Q: WOULD YOU TELL THE JURY, PLEASE?
# 405 A: TRACE EVIDENCE IS HAIR, FIBER EVIDENCE OF THAT TYPE. GROSS EVIDENCE IS ACTUALLY PHYSICAL EVIDENCE LIKE THE GLOVE OR A MURDER WEAPON OR CLOTHING OR WHAT HAVE YOU.
# 406 Q: IS TRACE EVIDENCE LIMITED TO HAIR AND FIBERS?
# 408 Q: TELL US WHAT ELSE TRACE EVIDENCE CAN ENCOMPASS.
# 409 A: TRACE EVIDENCE COULD ENCOMPASS SOIL, COULD ENCOMPASS MINUTE OR ANY -- ANY ARTICLE THAT IT'S NOT -- THAT CAN'T BE SEEN BY THE HUMAN EYE THAT COULD BE ATTACHED TO CLOTHING, TO A PERSON, WHATEVER.
# 410 Q: AND IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, TRACE EVIDENCE IS POTENTIALLY IMPORTANT EVIDENCE?
# 412 Q: AND IN YOUR EXPERIENCE, TRACE EVIDENCE TENDS TO DEGRADE OVER TIME MORE QUICKLY THAN GROSS EVIDENCE.
# 413 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION.
# 414 THE COURT: WHAT'S THE GROUNDS?
# 415 MR. DARDEN: NO FOUNDATION, SPECULATION.
# 416 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 417 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: I -- I -- I WOULD SAY THAT'S PROBABLY A FAIR STATEMENT, YES, THAT IT WILL DEGRADE QUICKER THAN A HARD PIECE OF EVIDENCE.
# 418 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS A WAVE OF THE HAND COULD REMOVE TRACE EVIDENCE FROM THE BODY OF AN INDIVIDUAL; COULD IT NOT?
# 419 A: PROBABLY A MOVEMENT OF THE AIR.
# 420 MR. DARDEN: SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION.
# 421 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 422 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: PROBABLY A MOVEMENT OF THE AIR COULD, YES.
# 423 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: BIOLOGICAL CONDITIONS NATURALLY CAUSE TRACE EVIDENCE TO DEGRADE; WOULD THEY NOT?
# 425 Q: ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE 24 BY 24 RULE?
# 426 A: NO. THAT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING TO ME. WHAT IS THAT?
# 428 THE COURT: WAIT A MINUTE. LAWYERS ASK THE QUESTIONS.
# 429 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE RULE THAT SAYS THAT 24 HOURS BEFORE DEATH AND THE 24 HOURS AFTER DEATH ARE THE CRUCIAL TIMES FOR A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATOR?
# 430 A: FOR CAPTURING THE SUSPECT, YES. ACTUALLY I THINK -- ACTUALLY I THINK IT'S 48, 48 INSTEAD OF 24, 24.
# 431 Q: AND THAT'S A RULE YOU ADHERE TO?
# 432 A: YES -- AS BEST I CAN, CERTAINLY.
# 433 Q: AND ALSO FOR EXCLUDING THE INNOCENT?
# 434 A: OH, ABSOLUTELY. THAT'S ONE OF OUR BASIC -- BASIC FUNCTIONS.
# 435 Q: THAT'S WHAT YOU REALLY FOCUS ON, ISN'T IT?
# 436 A: NO. I FOCUS ON TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT ACTUALLY OCCURRED, WHAT THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER IS.
# 437 Q: AND THE MORE TIME THAT GOES BY, THE GREATER CHANCE THAT EVIDENCE WILL BE DESTROYED, BE ELIMINATED, BE NOT AVAILABLE OR BE CONTAMINATED IN SOME WAY; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
# 438 MR. DARDEN: SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR, NO FOUNDATION.
# 439 THE COURT: IT'S ALSO ABOUT THE THIRD TIME WE'VE ASKED THE QUESTION. SUSTAINED.
# 440 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHEN YOU ARRIVED, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AND PHILLIPS WERE STANDING IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET?
# 441 A: YES. THEY WERE AT THE INTERSECTION OF BUNDY AND DOROTHY.
# 442 Q: AND IT WAS YOUR OPINION THAT AT THAT LOCATION, WHAT THEY WERE DOING WAS SECURING THE CRIME SCENE?
# 443 A: IS THAT A QUESTION?
# 444 Q: WAS THAT YOUR OPINION, THAT THEY WERE SECURING THE CRIME SCENE?
# 445 A: NO, THEY WERE NOT SECURING THE CRIME SCENE.
# 446 Q: WERE THEY PRESERVING THE INTEGRITY OF THE CRIME SCENE BY STANDING OUT THERE?
# 447 A: NO, THEY WEREN'T.
# 448 Q: WHAT WERE THEY DOING?
# 449 A: THEY WERE AWAITING OUR ARRIVAL.
# 450 Q: WERE THERE THINGS AS A TRAINED HOMICIDE INVESTIGATOR, IF YOU WERE RELIEVED FROM A CASE, WOULD YOU HAVE SOME RESPONSIBILITY UNTIL YOUR REPLACEMENT SHOWED UP?
# 452 Q: WHAT WAS THAT RESPONSIBILITY?
# 453 A: TO ATTEMPT TO ELICIT ANY WITNESSES IN THE AREA AND MAINTAIN CONTROL OF THE CRIME SCENE UNTIL THE HANDLING DETECTIVES ARRIVED.
# 454 Q: SO NOW, THE ONLY TWO HOMICIDE INVESTIGATORS THERE, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, ARE NOT TRYING TO ELICIT TESTIMONY FROM ANYBODY, ARE THEY?
# 455 A: THAT WAS BEING DONE BY UNIFORM.
# 456 Q: I'M SAYING THEY WERE THERE. THEY WEREN'T TRYING TO DO THAT AS DETECTIVES, WERE THEY?
# 457 A: ELICIT TESTIMONY?
# 458 Q: ELICIT STATEMENTS FROM POTENTIAL WITNESSES.
# 459 A: NO. I BELIEVE THEY TESTIFIED THEY STOOD IN THE STREET AND WAITED FOR US.
# 460 Q: AND THEY WEREN'T THERE PRESERVING THE INTEGRITY OF THE CRIME SCENE, WERE THEY?
# 462 Q: THEY WERE JUST PASSING THE TIME.
# 463 A: THEY WERE WAITING FOR US.
# 464 Q: HAD ANYBODY NOTIFIED THEM HOW LONG IT WOULD BE UNTIL YOU GOT THERE?
# 466 Q: SO IF YOU LIVED FURTHER AWAY THAN 45 MINUTES OR AN HOUR AND TOOK TWO HOURS, THEY WOULD BE STANDING IN THE STREET ACCORDING TO WHAT YOU OBSERVED FOR TWO HOURS?
# 467 A: THAT'S A GOOD HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION. YEAH. I DON'T THINK I'VE EVER TAKEN TWO HOURS TO REPORT TO A CRIME SCENE THOUGH.
# 468 Q: BUT THERE ARE DETECTIVES YOU SAY THAT PROBABLY LIVE TWO HOURS AWAY, DON'T THEY?
# 469 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THIS IS --
# 470 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. IRRELEVANT.
# 471 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: HOW MANY PEOPLE HAD BEEN INSIDE THE CRIME SCENE BEFORE YOU GOT THERE?
# 472 MR. DARDEN: CALLS FOR HEARSAY, SPECULATION.
# 473 THE COURT: OVERRULED. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
# 474 MR. SHAPIRO: I AM SORRY?
# 475 THE COURT: CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
# 476 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: ARE THERE ANY REPORTS TO INDICATE HOW MANY OFFICERS HAD BEEN AT THE CRIME SCENE BEFORE YOU GOT THERE?
# 477 A: HAD BEEN AT OR WERE IN THE CRIME SCENE?
# 478 Q: AT THE CRIME SCENE.
# 479 A: YEAH. THERE'S A LOG.
# 480 Q: AND WHAT DOES THAT LOG INDICATE?
# 483 A: YOU WANT ME TO COUNT THEM BEFORE I GOT THERE?
# 485 A: OKAY. HOLD ON, PLEASE.
# 487 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: LOOKS LIKE THERE WAS A TOTAL OF APPROXIMATELY 24 PEOPLE AT THE CRIME SCENE BEFORE MY ARRIVAL.
# 488 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO DETERMINE WHETHER ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE HAD BEEN IN THE GENERAL AREA OF THE CRIME SCENE; IS THAT CORRECT?
# 489 A: YEAH. I MADE THAT DETERMINATION.
# 490 Q: AND HAD ANY PERSONNEL BEEN INSIDE THE GENERAL CRIME SCENE AREA?
# 491 A: INSIDE THE TAPE?
# 492 Q: INSIDE WHAT YOU WOULD DESCRIBE -- DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE GENERAL CRIME SCENE AREA IS IN POLICE PARLANCE?
# 493 A: YEAH. THAT WOULD BE INSIDE THE SECURITY -- THE AREA THAT'S SECURED.
# 494 Q: OKAY. WERE ANY OFFICERS INSIDE THAT AREA BEFORE YOUR ARRIVAL ACCORDING TO WHAT YOU DETERMINED?
# 497 A: I WOULD SAY SIX, SIX OR SEVEN.
# 498 Q: ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH A MAN BY THE NAME OF WILLIAM BODZIAK?
# 500 Q: IS HE ONE OF THE EXPERTS THAT HAVE BEEN EMPLOYED BY THE PROSECUTION IN THIS CASE?
# 502 Q: AND HE'S A MEMBER OF THE FBI?
# 504 Q: AND IS HE ONE OF THE LEADING EXPERTS IN THE COUNTRY ON CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION?
# 505 A: I THINK HIS SPECIALTY IS ON SHOES. I WOULDN'T SAY CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION.
# 506 Q: FOOTWEAR IMPRESSION EVIDENCE?
# 508 Q: HAVE YOU READ HIS BOOKS?
# 510 Q: WOULD YOU AGREE --
# 511 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 512 THE COURT: IT'S PREMATURE AT THIS POINT. I HAVEN'T HEARD THE QUESTION.
# 513 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WOULD YOU AGREE AS A PART OF YOUR EDUCATION --
# 514 MR. DARDEN: PARDON ME, YOUR HONOR. MAY WE APPROACH?
# 515 THE COURT: COUNSEL, HOW CAN I TELL THE QUESTION "WOULD YOU AGREE"? HOW DO I KNOW WHAT'S COMING? I AM SAYING IT'S PREMATURE UNTIL I HEAR THE QUESTION. IF I'M NOT -- I CAN'T GUESS WHAT THE QUESTION IS GOING TO BE. MR. SHAPIRO.
# 516 MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HONOR.
# 517 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WOULD YOU AGREE AS AN EXPERT IN CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION THAT YOU SHOULD NOT ALLOW ANYONE INCLUDING OTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT PERSONNEL INTO THE GENERAL CRIME SCENE AREA EXCEPT WHEN IT IS NECESSARY TO TEND TO VICTIMS?
# 518 THE COURT: WHAT'S THE OBJECTION?
# 519 MR. DARDEN: MAY WE APPROACH FOR A MOMENT?
# 520 THE COURT: WHAT'S THE OBJECTION?
# 521 MR. DARDEN: HE APPEARS TO BE READING FROM A BOOK IN FRONT OF THE JURY. I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE BOOK.
# 522 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 523 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WOULD YOU AGREE THAT A CRIME SCENE SHOULD BE SECURED IMMEDIATELY?
# 525 Q: IS THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO DO?
# 527 Q: IS THAT THE FIRST RULE OF THUMB FOR CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATORS?
# 528 A: IT'S NORMALLY NOT DONE. THAT'S THE FIRST RULE OF THUMB FOR UNIFORMED OFFICERS, YES.
# 529 Q: IT SHOULD BE DONE, BUT IT'S NOT DONE?
# 530 A: NO. NORMALLY INVESTIGATORS ARE NOT THE FIRST ON THE SCENE.
# 532 A: IT'S BEEN MY EXPERIENCE IN 26 YEARS THAT UNIFORM IS THERE FIRST. THEY SECURE THE CRIME SCENE AND NOTIFY US.
# 533 Q: AREN'T POLICE OFFICERS ALL TRAINED PERSONNEL?
# 534 A: TRAINED IN WHAT, SIR?
# 536 A: OF COURSE THEY'RE TRAINED PERSONNEL.
# 537 Q: BASIC CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION?
# 538 A: DEFINITELY, YES.
# 539 Q: THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING ELEMENTARY, THAT WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU ARRIVE ON A HOMICIDE SCENE, WHAT TO DO?
# 541 Q: I MEAN, THAT'S JUST COMMON SENSE, ISN'T IT?
# 543 Q: AND WOULD YOU AGREE THAT A CRIME SCENE SHOULD BE SEALED AND NO ONE SHOULD ENTER IT EXCEPT TO TEND TO VICTIMS?
# 544 A: NO ONE THAT'S NOT INVOLVED IN THE INVESTIGATION, YES.
# 545 Q: NO. NO ONE SHOULD ENTER IT EXCEPT TO TEND TO VICTIMS. YOU CAN DISAGREE WITH THAT.
# 546 A: WELL, I DO DISAGREE WITH THAT.
# 547 Q: YOU DISAGREE WITH THAT. AND YOU'VE TOLD US YOU HAVEN'T READ ANY BOOKS BY EXPERTS IN THE FIELD. HAVE YOU CONSULTED EXPERTS IN THE FIELD AS TO THE PROPER PROCEDURES REGARDING ENTRANCE INTO A CRIME SCENE?
# 548 A: HAVE I CONSULTED EXPERTS. I'VE MET WITH MANY EXPERTS OVER 26 YEARS. YES.
# 549 Q: IS IT VERY EASY TO DISTURB THINGS WITHIN A CRIME SCENE?
# 550 MR. DARDEN: CALLS FOR SPECULATION, YOUR HONOR.
# 551 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. VAGUE.
# 552 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHAT ARE THE DANGERS OF ENTERING A CRIME SCENE IF YOU'RE NOT TRAINED PROPERLY?
# 553 A: DESTRUCTION AND CONTAMINATION OF EVIDENCE.
# 554 Q: AND WHEN YOU'RE DEALING NOW IN THE AREA OF DNA, YOU'RE DEALING WITH MINUTE PIECES OF EVIDENCE, AREN'T YOU?
# 555 A: ULTIMATELY THEY'RE MINUTE, YES.
# 556 Q: SOMETIMES MICROSCOPIC.
# 557 A: YES. THAT'S CORRECT.
# 558 Q: SOMETIMES THEY CAN'T EVEN BE SEEN UNDER A MICROSCOPE.
# 559 A: I DON'T KNOW. THAT'S WAY OUT OF MY FIELD OF EXPERTISE. I REALLY DON'T KNOW THAT.
# 560 Q: DIDN'T YOU LEARN ABOUT THIS IN YOUR CONTINUING EDUCATION?
# 561 A: WHAT? LEARN ABOUT DOING TESTING ON DNA?
# 562 THE COURT: COUNSEL, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. YOU ARE ARGUING WITH THE WITNESS. HE SAID SOME THINGS YOU CAN'T SEE. ALL RIGHT.
# 563 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHAT IS YOUR -- WHAT IS THE IMPORTANCE OF FOOTWEAR IMPRESSION EVIDENCE?
# 564 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. VAGUE.
# 565 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
# 566 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: IS THERE A -- ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE TERM "FOOTWEAR IMPRESSION EVIDENCE"?
# 568 Q: HAVE YOU EVER READ ANY BOOKS -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL, DO YOU KNOW IF THERE ARE ANY BOOKS WRITTEN ON FOOTWEAR IMPRESSION EVIDENCE?
# 569 A: I'M SURE THERE ARE, COLLECTION OF EVIDENCE, YES.
# 570 Q: AND THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING THAT -- TO BE A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATOR, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A BROAD KNOWLEDGE OF LOTS OF THINGS, DON'T YOU?
# 572 Q: I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND BASIC FORENSIC PATHOLOGY?
# 573 A: THAT'S PROBABLY A FAIR TERM, YEAH.
# 574 Q: YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE BASIC WORKINGS OF A CRIMINALIST?
# 576 Q: YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND FINGERPRINT ANALYSIS, BOTH LATENT AND PATENT?
# 578 Q: YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND FOOTWEAR IMPRESSION EVIDENCE, BOTH LATENT AND PATENT?
# 579 A: WELL, I'M NOT SURE THAT YOU HAVE TO -- YOU -- YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHAT YOU'RE LOOKING AT, WHAT YOU'RE SEEING, YES. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE EXPERTS THAT ASSIST US IN THESE INVESTIGATIONS.
# 580 Q: AND YOU DIRECT THE EXPERTS, DON'T YOU?
# 581 A: WE POINT OUT THE ITEMS. THEY DO THE COLLECTION, THEY DO THE -- THE COMPARISONS AND SO ON, SO FORTH. I DON'T DO THAT.
# 582 Q: BUT YOU'RE THE ONE WHO'S WALKING BY WITH A MAGNIFYING GLASS SAYING, "THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO PRESERVE."
# 583 A: LIKE SHERLOCK HOLMES WITH A MAGNIFYING GLASS? NO. YES, I GO INTO THE CRIME SCENE TO ACCLIMATE MYSELF TO THE SCENE TO KNOW WHAT'S THERE SO I CAN DIRECT THE CRIMINALIST WHEN HE GETS THERE FOR THE SEARCH FOR OBVIOUS EVIDENCE AS WELL AS LATENT EVIDENCE THAT MAY BE THERE.
# 584 Q: WELL, YOU SAID TWO THINGS THAT ARE INTERESTING. THE SEARCH TO KNOW WHAT'S THERE.
# 586 Q: SOME THINGS THAT ARE THERE ARE NOT APPARENT; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
# 587 A: OH, YEAH, THAT'S --
# 588 Q: AND THAT'S WHERE YOUR EXPERTISE COMES IN; ISN'T THAT TRUE?
# 589 A: WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT HERE? FINGERPRINTS?
# 590 Q: THINGS THAT ARE NOT APPARENT.
# 592 Q: ANYTHING THAT MAY NOT BE APPARENT TO SOMEBODY WHO IS NOT AN EXPERT DETECTIVE LIKE YOURSELF.
# 593 A: I -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. THERE'S THINGS THAT ARE NOT APPARENT HERE ON THIS FLOOR. WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?
# 594 Q: WELL, LET'S SAY YOU WERE INVESTIGATING A CRIME SCENE AND SOMETHING HAPPENED HERE. WOULD YOU WANT TO CORNER OFF THIS AREA OF THE FLOOR FOR ANY REASON?
# 595 A: ABSOLUTELY, YES.
# 597 A: FOR -- FOR AN EXAMINATION BY A CRIMINALIST FOR TRACE EVIDENCE, FOR WHATEVER MAY BE THERE.
# 598 Q: WHAT ABOUT FOOTWEAR IMPRESSION EVIDENCE? IS THAT SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN EMERGING IN THE LAST FIVE YEARS AS BECOMING VERY IMPORTANT IN CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION?
# 599 A: WELL, I THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME, LONGER THAN FIVE YEARS.
# 600 Q: WHEN I SAY "EMERGING," THAT THERE ARE RECENTLY DEVELOPING NEW TECHNIQUES TO FIND LATENT FOOTPRINTS?
# 602 Q: TO FIND IMPRESSION -- FOOTWEAR IMPRESSION EVIDENCE?
# 604 Q: DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN BY THAT?
# 605 A: YEAH, I SURE DO.
# 606 Q: THAT IF SOMEBODY STEPPED ON A CARPET, THAT THERE ARE NOW TECHNIQUES AVAILABLE TO DETERMINE WHAT SHOE WAS USED TO MAKE THAT -- TO STEP IN THAT AREA EVEN THOUGH YOU CAN'T SEE ANYTHING WITH THE NAKED EYE?
# 607 A: WELL, I'M NOT SURE ABOUT CARPET. NORMALLY, THEY -- THEY LIFT THOSE FROM HARD SURFACES, NOT POROUS SURFACES LIKE A CARPET.
# 608 Q: DO YOU HAVE -- HAVE YOU READ ANY MATERIALS IN KEEPING UP WITH SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE ON WHAT IMPRESSIONS CAN BE DRAWN FROM CARPET?
# 609 THE COURT: IS THERE ANY CARPET IN THIS CASE?
# 610 MR. SHAPIRO: YES, IN TWO LOCATIONS.
# 611 THE COURT: PROCEED.
# 612 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: NO, I HAVEN'T.
# 613 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: THIS IS THE FIRST TIME YOU'VE HEARD ABOUT THAT?
# 614 A: FIRST TIME I'VE HEARD ABOUT WHAT?
# 615 Q: THAT YOU MAY BE ABLE TO GET VERY VALUABLE EVIDENCE FROM CARPET?
# 616 A: NO, IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME I'VE HEARD THAT.
# 617 Q: SO I TAKE IT ANY AREA THAT THERE WAS CARPET IN, NOBODY WOULD BE ALLOWED TO GO IN?
# 618 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. THAT'S VAGUE.
# 619 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
# 620 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: IF THERE WAS AREAS IN A CRIME SCENE THAT HAD CARPET, WOULD YOU PREVENT PEOPLE FROM GOING IN THERE?
# 621 A: OH, I WOULD PREVENT ANYBODY THAT WASN'T WORKING THE CRIME SCENE FROM GOING INTO THE CRIME SCENE, YES. BUT TO INVESTIGATE A CRIME SCENE, YOU HAVE TO GO INTO A CRIME SCENE TO INVESTIGATE IT.
# 622 Q: BUT YOU HAVE TO GO IN CAREFULLY, DON'T YOU?
# 623 A: EXTREMELY CAREFULLY, YES.
# 624 Q: AND YOU HAVE TO BE AWARE OF WHERE POTENTIAL EVIDENCE IS?
# 626 Q: AND IF YOU'RE NOT AWARE OF WHERE POTENTIAL EVIDENCE IS, YOU COULD DESTROY POTENTIALLY EXCULPATORY EVIDENCE?
# 627 A: THAT'S A POSSIBILITY, YES.
# 628 Q: AND PROTECTIVE CLOTHING IS VERY IMPORTANT WITH THE ADVANCEMENT OF DNA COLLECTION OF EVIDENCE, ISN'T IT?
# 629 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. NO FOUNDATION.
# 630 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 631 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: ARE YOU AWARE OF WHAT IS RECOMMENDED FOR COLLECTING AND PRESERVING DNA EVIDENCE?
# 632 MR. DARDEN: SAME OBJECTION.
# 633 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 634 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: I DON'T DO THE COLLECTION AND TESTING OF IT. SO I -- NO. I WOULD HAVE TO SAY NO ON THAT.
# 635 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: YOU'RE NOT AWARE OF WHAT SHOULD BE DONE?
# 636 A: I -- I JUST SAID NO. I DON'T DO THE COLLECTION OR THE TESTING OF IT. SO NO, I'M NOT AWARE.
# 637 Q: WELL, BEFORE YOU GET TO COLLECTION OF EVIDENCE, IT CAN ALSO BE DESTROYED OR CONTAMINATED BY EVEN SOMEBODY AS EXPERT AS YOURSELF GOING INTO THAT AREA; ISN'T THAT TRUE?
# 638 A: OH, THAT'S ALWAYS A POSSIBILITY, YEAH.
# 639 Q: AND FOR THAT PURPOSE, IT IS RECOMMENDED, IS IT NOT, THAT FOOTWEAR PROTECTION BE USED BEFORE ENTERING A BLOODY CRIME SCENE?
# 640 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION.
# 641 THE COURT: GROUNDS?
# 642 MR. DARDEN: SPECULATION.
# 643 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 644 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: ARE YOU AWARE THAT PROFESSIONAL STANDARDS REQUIRE INVESTIGATORS TO WEAR FOOTWEAR COVERING WHEN INVESTIGATING SENSITIVE AREAS WHERE DNA EVIDENCE MAY APPEAR?
# 645 MR. DARDEN: SAME OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 646 THE COURT: GROUNDS?
# 647 MR. DARDEN: VAGUE AS TO PROFESSIONAL STANDARDS.
# 648 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 649 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: IT'S OBVIOUS, IS IT NOT, THAT IF YOU WALKED IN WITH DIRTY SHOES, THAT YOU MAY CONTAMINATE A CRIME SCENE? ISN'T THAT TRUE?
# 650 A: IF YOU STEP IN THE EVIDENCE, YES, IT IS.
# 651 Q: AND IF YOU HAD DIRTY SHOES, THAT YOU MAY BRING TRACE EVIDENCE FROM OUTSIDE INTO THE CRIME SCENE. ISN'T THAT A POSSIBILITY?
# 652 A: AGAIN, IF YOU STEP IN THE EVIDENCE, YES.
# 653 Q: WHAT IF YOU WALKED INTO A CRIME SCENE, WALKED ON A HAIR OUTSIDE AND WALKED IN. IS THERE A CHANCE THAT HAIR COULD BE MOVED FROM OUTSIDE INSIDE?
# 655 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.
# 656 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 657 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: SAY THAT AGAIN, PLEASE?
# 658 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: IF YOU WALK UP TO A CRIME SCENE AND THERE IS A HAIR THAT YOU CAN'T SEE ON THE SIDEWALK, IS THERE A CHANCE THAT HAIR MIGHT STICK TO YOUR SHOES AND THEN YOU CARRY IT IN AND IT CAN BE DISCOVERED INSIDE THE CRIME SCENE?
# 659 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 660 THE COURT: SPECULATION. SUSTAINED.
# 661 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHAT EFFORT DOES IT TAKE TO WEAR FOOTWEAR COVERINGS?
# 662 A: THERE WOULDN'T BE MUCH EFFORT TO IT I DON'T THINK.
# 663 Q: IS THERE ANY REASON NOT TO?
# 665 Q: IS THERE ANY REASON NOT TO WEAR HEAD COVERINGS IN A CRIME SCENE?
# 667 Q: IS THERE ANY REASON NOT TO WEAR COVERALLS OR OTHER PROTECTIVE CLOTHING IN A CRIME SCENE?
# 669 Q: IS THERE ANY REASON NOT TO WEAR GLOVES WITHIN A CRIME SCENE?
# 671 Q: ARE THESE THINGS THAT WOULD BE OVERLY BURDENSOME TO DO?
# 673 Q: WHEN YOU WENT THROUGH YOUR TRAINING AT HOMICIDE SCHOOL, WASN'T ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS YOU WERE TAUGHT, THAT WHEN YOU ENTER A POTENTIAL CRIME SCENE, DON'T PICK UP THE PHONE?
# 674 A: YEAH. THAT'S A BASIC RULE. YES.
# 675 Q: WHAT'S THE REASON FOR THAT RULE?
# 676 A: BECAUSE YOU MAY HAVE THE TELEPHONE USED BY THE SUSPECT. YOU MAY HAVE FINGERPRINTS ON IT. YOU MAY HAVE TRACE EVIDENCE ON IT.
# 677 Q: WHAT ABOUT USING ANY OF THE FACILITIES WITHIN THE CRIME SCENE, TURNING WATER ON OR OFF?
# 678 A: THAT SHOULD NOT BE DONE.
# 679 Q: PUTTING OUT CANDLES?
# 680 A: NOTHING SHOULD BE DISTURBED UNTIL THE INVESTIGATION IS COMPLETED.
# 681 Q: DID YOU DETERMINE WHETHER ANY OF THOSE THINGS WERE DONE IN THIS CASE?
# 682 A: I FOUND OUT LATER THAT THE TELEPHONE WAS USED, YES.
KEY QUOTE # 683 Q: AND THAT SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN DONE. THAT'S A VIOLATION OF --
# 684 A: IT SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN DONE.
# 685 Q: -- THE MORE BASIC RULES OF CRIME INVESTIGATION; IS IT NOT?
# 686 A: HOWEVER, IN THIS CASE, THE HOUSE DID NOT APPEAR OR WAS NOT RELATED TO THE CRIME SCENE. THERE WAS NOTHING TO INDICATE THAT THE SUSPECT HAD EVER ENTERED OR ANYTHING HAD EVER OCCURRED IN THAT RESIDENCE.
# 687 Q: SO YOUR OPINION TODAY IS, THE SUSPECT IN THIS CASE HAS NEVER ENTERED THE BUNDY RESIDENCE?
# 688 A: OH, NO, I DIDN'T SAY THAT AT ALL. IT DIDN'T APPEAR THAT ANY ASPECT OF THE CRIME HAD OCCURRED WITHIN THE RESIDENCE ITSELF.
# 689 Q: WHEN YOU START INVESTIGATING A CRIME SCENE, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO FIND, DO YOU.
# 691 Q: THEREFORE, EVERYTHING IS POTENTIAL EVIDENCE, ISN'T IT?
# 693 Q: AND PROPER PROCEDURE WOULD DICTATE FOLLOWING PROPER RULES; WOULD IT NOT?
# 695 Q: AND IF THERE WAS EVIDENCE THAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE SOME VALUE, WHAT'S THE RULE THAT YOU ADHERE TO?
# 696 A: IT WOULD BE PROTECTED, COLLECTED AND BOOKED.
# 697 Q: ALL RIGHT. WHEN YOU WALKED THROUGH THE CRIME SCENE, ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS YOU SAW WAS A BEN AND JERRY'S ICE CREAM CUP AND A PLASTIC SPOON, CORRECT?
# 698 A: ONE OF THE FIRST THINGS THAT WAS POINTED OUT TO ME, YES.
# 699 Q: AND THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT WAS REPORTED IN THE NOTES OF THE PREVIOUS HOMICIDE INVESTIGATOR, THAT HE TOOK NOTE OF, CORRECT?
# 701 Q: SO OBVIOUSLY, IN DOING YOUR DETAIL NOTE ANALYSIS, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT HE DEEMED IMPORTANT; IS THAT CORRECT?
# 702 A: WELL, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER HE DEEMED IT IMPORTANT. IT WAS SOMETHING THAT HE NOTED.
# 703 Q: IS A PLASTIC SPOON SOMETHING THAT IS CAPABLE OF GETTING LATENT FINGERPRINTS OFF OF?
# 704 A: I WOULD THINK SO, YES.
# 705 Q: WHAT ABOUT A PAPER CUP?
# 707 Q: IS THERE ANY REASON WHY THOSE ITEMS WOULD NOT BE TAKEN INTO EVIDENCE?
# 708 A: YEAH. THEY DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE CONNECTED TO THE CRIME SCENE FROM WHAT I SAW.
# 709 Q: BUT YOU DIDN'T KNOW AT THAT TIME, DID YOU?
# 710 A: THEY DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE CONNECTED.
# 711 Q: BUT AS OF TODAY, IT'S BECOME AN ISSUE IN THIS CASE, HASN'T IT?
# 712 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION.
# 713 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 714 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: IS THERE ANY REASON -- WHAT EFFORT WOULD IT HAVE TAKEN TO TAKE THOSE ITEMS INTO EVIDENCE?
# 715 A: IT WOULD HAVE BEEN NO EFFORT IF IT WAS DEEMED NECESSARY. THEY STILL TO THIS DAY DON'T APPEAR TO HAVE ANY CONNECTION TO THIS CASE.
# 716 Q: BUT YOU DON'T KNOW THAT, DO YOU?
# 717 A: WELL, I THINK THAT'S A FAIR ASSUMPTION.
# 718 Q: COULD YOU DETERMINE PERHAPS WHO WAS EATING THAT ICE CREAM BY FINDING FINGERPRINTS ON THE COUPLE?
# 719 A: IF THEY WERE THERE, YES.
# 720 Q: MIGHT THAT HAVE SOME IMPORTANCE?
# 721 A: OH, I THINK IT'S BEEN DETERMINED WHO WAS EATING ICE CREAM THAT NIGHT.
# 722 Q: MIGHT THAT HAVE SOME IMPORTANCE IS MY QUESTION.
# 723 A: I STILL DON'T THINK IT'S CONNECTED TO THE CRIME SCENE. I DON'T SEE ANY IMPORTANCE TO IT.
# 724 Q: SO INITIALLY, UPON WALKING INTO A CRIME SCENE, YOU SEE SOMETHING THAT'S POTENTIAL EVIDENCE, YOU DETERMINE BY YOURSELF AS AN EXPERIENCED DETECTIVE, IT PROBABLY DOESN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT; SO WE'RE JUST GOING TO IGNORE IT AND THROW IT OUT. IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING US?
# 725 A: I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT. WHAT DO YOU MEAN? ARE YOU SPEAKING ABOUT A CERTAIN ITEM OR ARE YOU SPEAKING ABOUT ANY CRIME SCENE OR --
# 726 Q: I'M TALKING ABOUT THIS SPECIFIC ITEM.
# 727 A: ABOUT THE ICE CREAM?
# 728 Q: YEAH. YOU SAW IT, YOU DIDN'T THINK IT WAS OF EVIDENTIARY VALUE EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE TOLD US IT COULD HAVE A FINGERPRINT ON IT, AND THEREFORE YOU SIMPLY IGNORED IT AND HAD IT THROWN AWAY?
# 729 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES THE DETECTIVE'S TESTIMONY.
# 730 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.
# 731 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: YOU IMMEDIATELY MAKE DECISIONS, DON'T YOU?
# 732 A: NOT ALL THE TIME.
# 733 Q: YOU MAKE THEM VERY QUICKLY, DON'T YOU?
# 734 A: NO, NOT ALL THE TIME.
# 735 Q: AND YOU'RE NOT EASY TO CHANGE YOUR OPINION, ARE YOU?
# 736 A: NO, THAT'S NOT TRUE. I AM.
# 737 Q: AND IF YOU HAD TO DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN, YOU STILL WOULDN'T TAKE THAT ICE CREAM CUP?
# 738 A: GEE, MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACKING IS WONDERFUL. I STILL TO THIS DAY DON'T BELIEVE THE ICE CREAM IS CONNECTED TO THE CRIME SCENE AT BUNDY.