Robert Shapiro cross-examines Detective Vannatter on the competence of personnel used in the investigation, exposing that a trainee criminalist with minimal experience was sent to the crime scene, that Vannatter had no formal DNA training, and that he never sought out the best available experts despite knowing the case would face intense scrutiny. Shapiro also establishes the broad geographic scope of the investigation, including FBI involvement, multiple states, and Europe.
# 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:) # 3 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DETECTIVE VANNATTER, WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE FINGER OF MR. SIMPSON TODAY AS BEING SWOLLEN?
# 4 A: IT DIDN'T APPEAR SWOLLEN TO ME, NO.
# 5 Q: I TAKE IT WHEN YOU OBSERVED HIS FINGER THAT YOU CALLED FOR A MEDICAL PERSON TO COME TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS ANY GLASS IN THAT FINGER?
# 6 A: I HAD HIS FINGER EXAMINED, YES.
# 7 Q: WAS IT BY A DOCTOR?
# 8 A: NO, IT WAS BY A REGISTERED NURSE.
# 9 Q: WAS IT BY A PATHOLOGIST?
# 11 Q: DO YOU KNOW THE QUALIFICATIONS OF THE NURSE TO DETERMINE THE CAUSE OF AN INJURY, A TRAUMATIC INJURY?
# 15 Q: DID YOU THINK THAT MIGHT BE IMPORTANT?
# 16 A: IT APPEARED HE HAD AN INJURY ON HIS LEFT HAND.
# 17 Q: WELL, YOU HAD INFORMATION THAT HE HAD INJURED HIMSELF WITH A PIECE OF CUT GLASS, DID YOU NOT?
# 18 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 19 THE COURT: SUSTAINED. ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.
# 20 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU HAVE INFORMATION THAT HE HAD CUT HIMSELF WITH A PIECE OF CUT GLASS?
# 21 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, CALLS FOR HEARSAY.
# 22 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 23 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU HAVE INFORMATION FROM POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN CHICAGO?
# 24 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. CALLS FOR HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR.
# 25 THE COURT: DID HE HAVE INFORMATION FROM? NO, OVERRULED.
# 26 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: YES.
# 27 THE COURT: THAT QUESTION YOU CAN ANSWER.
# 28 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: AND DID THAT INFORMATION INCLUDE A THOROUGH SEARCH OF THE ROOM MR. SIMPSON WAS IN BEFORE HE HAD LEFT?
# 29 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, CALLS FOR HEARSAY.
# 30 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE IN THAT TERRITORY NOW. SUSTAINED.
# 31 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DID YOU HAVE ANY REFERENCE WHATSOEVER ABOUT THE CAUSE OF THE INJURY?
# 32 MR. DARDEN: SAME OBJECTION.
# 33 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: AT THE TIME YOU WERE EXAMINING MR. SIMPSON?
# 34 THE COURT: OVERRULED. YES OR NO?
# 35 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: I -- COULD YOU ASK THAT AGAIN, PLEASE? DID I HAVE ANY REFERENCE?
# 36 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: YES.
# 37 A: I HAD INFORMATION, YES.
# 38 Q: AND DID THAT INFORMATION CAUSE YOU TO CONSIDER THAT THE INJURY MAY HAVE BEEN CAUSED BY BEING CUT WITH A PIECE OF GLASS?
# 39 MR. DARDEN: SAME OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 40 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 41 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: AT NO TIME DID YOU MAKE ANY DETERMINATION WITH ANY SCIENTIFIC EXPERT TO DETERMINE WHETHER THERE WAS ANY GLASS IN THAT WOUND, DID YOU?
# 43 Q: SINCE THE TIME THAT YOU HAVE BECOME A POLICE OFFICER 26 YEARS AGO, I WOULD IMAGINE THAT THERE HAVE BEEN DRASTIC CHANGES IN SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE IN CRIMINAL CASES?
# 44 A: YEAH. THERE HAS BEEN CHANGES, YES.
# 45 Q: WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THEM AS DRASTIC?
# 47 Q: I MEAN, YOU HAVE GONE FROM A TIME OF USING 3-BY-5 CARDS TO COMPUTERS; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
# 49 Q: AND YOUR EDUCATION TOOK PLACE AT THE ACADEMY MORE THAN 25 YEARS AGO, YOUR INITIAL EDUCATION; IS THAT CORRECT?
# 50 A: MY INITIAL EDUCATION, YES.
# 51 Q: AND THEN YOU GOT FURTHER EDUCATION BY SOMETHING CALLED HOMICIDE SCHOOL?
# 54 A: PROBABLY TWENTY YEARS AGO.
# 55 Q: AND I WOULD TAKE IT THAT THINGS THAT YOU LEARNED IN HOMICIDE SCHOOL TODAY MAY BE VERY, VERY -- IN HOMICIDE SCHOOL TWENTY YEARS AGO ARE IN FACT OUT OF DATE TODAY?
# 56 A: SOME OF THE THINGS, YES.
# 57 Q: AND THERE HAVE BEEN THINGS THAT HAVE BEEN CHANGED SINCE HOMICIDE SCHOOL THAT YOU NEVER EVEN CONSIDERED AT THAT TIME?
# 58 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) # 59 Q: BEEN ADVANCEMENTS THAT WERE NEVER DISCUSSED IN HOMICIDE SCHOOL TWENTY YEARS AGO THAT ARE ROUTINE PROCEDURES TODAY?
# 60 A: THAT'S CORRECT, YES.
# 61 Q: AND DID YOU TAKE CONTINUED EDUCATION COURSES TO KEEP UP WITH THE CHANGE IN SCIENTIFIC TECHNOLOGY?
# 62 A: WELL, I THINK THAT IS A CONTINUING EDUCATION ON A DAILY BASIS WITH THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.
# 63 Q: DID YOU UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION, SIR?
# 65 Q: COULD YOU ANSWER IT, PLEASE?
# 66 A: CONTINUING EDUCATION?
# 69 Q: HAVE YOU TAUGHT ANYTHING IN THE AREA OF POLICE SCIENCE OR POLICE INVESTIGATION OR INVESTIGATION TECHNIQUES?
# 72 A: AT THE POLICE ACADEMY OCCASIONALLY AND AT TRAINING DAYS, YES.
# 73 Q: AND WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU TAUGHT AT THE POLICE ACADEMY AND WHAT SUBJECT DID YOU TEACH?
# 74 A: PROBABLY TEN YEARS AGO AND IT WAS OFFICER-INVOLVED SHOOTINGS.
# 75 Q: AND PRIOR TO THAT WHEN DID YOU TEACH BEFORE THAT AT THE POLICE ACADEMY AND WHAT SUBJECT DID YOU TEACH?
# 76 A: WELL, I USED TO TEACH QUARTERLY OFFICER-INVOLVED SHOOTINGS AT THE POLICE ACADEMY AND AT TRAINING DAYS FOR DIFFERENT DIVISIONS.
# 77 Q: HAVE YOU TAUGHT ANY OTHER SUBJECT?
# 79 Q: HAVE YOU READ ANY BOOKS ON CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION IN THE LAST TEN YEARS?
# 81 Q: HAVE YOU READ ANY MANUALS ON CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION IN THE LAST TEN YEARS?
# 83 Q: PRIOR TO YOUR TESTIMONY IN THIS CASE?
# 85 Q: WHEN HAVE YOU READ SOMETHING?
# 86 A: I JUST READ THE HOMICIDE MANUAL WITHIN THE LAST SIX MONTHS.
# 87 Q: THAT IS FROM THE LAPD?
# 89 Q: ANY OTHER PUBLICATIONS BY OTHER EXPERTS THIS FIELD THAT YOU HAVE READ?
# 91 Q: HAVE YOU ATTENDED ANY SEMINARS GIVEN BY ANY EXPERTS IN CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION?
# 92 A: AT ANY TIME, SIR?
# 93 Q: IN THE LAST TEN YEARS?
# 95 Q: WHAT HAVE YOU READ -- WHAT SEMINARS HAVE YOU BEEN TO?
# 96 A: CALIFORNIA HOMICIDE INVESTIGATORS ASSOCIATION.
# 98 A: WELL, I HAVE ATTENDED PROBABLY THREE OR FOUR TIMES IN THE LAST TEN YEARS. MAYBE AS MANY AS FIVE TIMES.
# 99 Q: WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU ATTENDED?
# 100 A: THREE YEARS AGO MAYBE.
# 103 Q: WHAT WAS THE SUBJECT MATTER?
# 104 A: THERE WAS -- THERE WAS A NUMBER OF GLASSES GIVEN, CASE PREPARATION. THERE WAS A HOMICIDE CASE PRESENTED, AS I RECALL.
# 105 Q: DID IT INVOLVE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE?
# 106 A: I DON'T RECALL IF THERE WAS A CLASS IN THAT OR NOT.
# 107 Q: WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE ONE OF THE OLD SCHOOL TYPE OF DETECTIVES?
# 108 A: I DON'T THINK I KNOW WHAT "OLD SCHOOL" MEANS, SIR.
# 109 Q: WHAT TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE -- WHAT TRAINING HAVE YOU HAD FORMALLY WITH DNA PRESERVATION OF EVIDENCE?
# 110 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION.
# 111 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 112 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: WELL, I PRESENTED A PREVIOUS HOMICIDE CASE WITH DNA EVIDENCE, IF THAT -- IF THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE ASKING.
# 113 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DO YOU REMEMBER THE QUESTION I ASKED YOU?
# 114 A: YEAH, WHAT FORMAL TRAINING I'VE HAD.
# 115 Q: CAN YOU ANSWER THAT QUESTION?
# 117 THE COURT: IT WAS ALSO EXPERIENCE, COUNSEL; TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE.
# 118 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHAT TRAINING HAVE YOU HAD? LET'S LIMIT IT TO TRAINING, FORMAL TRAINING, REGARDING DNA?
# 119 A: NO FORMAL TRAINING. THAT IS NOT TRUE. WE HAVE QUARTERLY HOMICIDE MEETINGS IN THE CITY. WE HAVE ROLL CALL TRAINING WHERE DNA EVIDENCE HAS BEEN DISCUSSED MANY TIMES.
# 120 Q: ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE PROPER TECHNIQUES OF THE COLLECTION OF DNA EVIDENCE?
# 121 A: NO. I AM NOT A CRIMINALIST AND I AM NOT AN EXPERT IN THAT, NO.
KEY QUOTE # 122 Q: ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH HOW DNA EVIDENCE CAN BECOME CONTAMINATED?
# 123 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 124 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 125 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: WELL, I THINK I AM FAMILIAR WITH THE WAY ANY KIND OF EVIDENCE COULD BE CONTAMINATED.
# 126 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WELL, IS THERE A GREATER SUSCEPTIBILITY FOR CONTAMINATION OF POTENTIAL DNA EVIDENCE THAN OTHER TYPES OF EVIDENCE?
# 127 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 128 THE COURT: WHAT IS THE BASIS?
# 129 MR. DARDEN: IT IS BEYOND THE WITNESS' EXPERTISE.
# 130 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 131 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: IS THERE MORE OF A SUSCEPTIBILITY FOR DNA TYPE EVIDENCE TO BE CONTAMINATED?
# 132 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: YES.
# 133 A: WELL, I THINK THERE WOULD BE A LOT OF VARIABLES IN THAT. I THINK IT WOULD DEPEND ON WHERE THE DNA EVIDENCE IS, THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT IT IS FOUND AND SO ON AND SO FORTH. THAT POSSIBILITY I THINK WOULD EXIST WITH ANY EVIDENCE. IT COULD BE CONTAMINATED.
# 134 Q: HOW CAN DNA EVIDENCE BECOME CONTAMINATED?
# 135 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WE ARE BEYOND THE SCOPE OF THE DIRECT EXAMINATION AT THIS POINT. THIS WITNESS DID NOT TESTIFY TO THE ACTUAL COLLECTION. HE IS A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATOR. HE IS THE LEAD INVESTIGATOR, SO THERE IS SOME PARAMETERS HERE --
# 136 MR. SHAPIRO: RATHER THAN TAKE UP JURY TIME, IF WE MAY APPROACH THE BENCH AT THE BREAK THEN AND I WILL GO INTO SOME OTHER QUESTIONS.
# 137 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
# 138 MR. SHAPIRO: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HONOR.
# 139 Q: ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE WAY TO PRESERVE EVIDENCE IN A CRIMINAL CASE?
# 140 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, VAGUE.
# 141 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 142 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: TO PRESERVE BLOOD EVIDENCE IN A CRIMINAL CASE?
# 144 Q: AND ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE TECHNIQUES TO PRESERVE DNA BLOOD EVIDENCE IN A CRIMINAL CASE?
# 145 A: I THINK PRESERVING BLOOD EVIDENCE WOULD GO TO DNA OR ANY KIND OF TESTING THAT WOULD BE APPLICABLE TO THAT.
# 146 Q: YOU SEE NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE PRESERVATION OF EVIDENCE FOR STANDARD BLOOD TESTING OR FOR DNA TESTING; IS THAT CORRECT?
# 147 A: NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE TWO?
# 149 A: I -- DNA TESTING IS A CONTINUATION OF STANDARD BLOOD TESTING. IT HAS TO BE PROTECTED TO ENSURE THE NON-CONTAMINATION OF THE EVIDENCE.
# 150 Q: ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH A TERM CROSS-CONTAMINATION?
# 151 A: YES, I KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.
# 152 Q: WHAT IS CROSS-CONTAMINATION OF BLOOD EVIDENCE AND HOW DOES IT OCCUR?
# 153 A: CROSS-CONTAMINATION WOULD BE IF YOU TAKE TWO BASES OF EVIDENCE AND MIX THEM UP AND YOU GET A MIXING OF THE EVIDENCE TOGETHER.
# 154 Q: YOU WILL -- COULD CROSS-CONTAMINATION TAKE PLACE BY BRINGING EVIDENCE FROM ONE LOCATION TO ANOTHER LOCATION?
# 155 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION.
# 156 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 157 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: ARE YOU FAMILIAR -- ARE YOU AWARE THAT CROSS-CONTAMINATION CAN TAKE PLACE BY BRINGING CONTAMINATED EVIDENCE FROM ONE LOCATION TO ANOTHER LOCATION?
# 158 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 159 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: IN YOUR ROLE AS THE LEAD INVESTIGATOR OF THIS CASE, ARE YOU THE ONE WHO IS ULTIMATELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL ASPECTS OF THIS INVESTIGATION?
# 160 A: MYSELF AND MY PARTNER, YES.
# 161 Q: AND EVERYBODY WHO DOES SOMETHING REGARDING INVESTIGATION WORKS UNDER YOU OR UNDER YOUR DIRECTION?
# 162 A: I WOULD SAY THAT IS A FAIR STATEMENT, YES.
# 163 Q: AND THE PEOPLE THAT YOU WANT WORKING UNDER YOU OR AT YOUR DIRECTION ARE PEOPLE THAT YOU KNOW ARE CAPABLE OF DOING THE JOB CORRECTLY; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
# 164 A: PEOPLE THAT ARE SENT TO THE CRIME SCENE, I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER. I WOULD ASSUME PEOPLE THAT ARE REQUESTED AND SENT THERE ARE TRAINED PERSONNEL, YES.
# 165 Q: AND AFTER YOU TAKE OVER, DO YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO REQUEST YOUR OWN BACK-UP GROUP OF PEOPLE TO HELP IN YOUR INVESTIGATION?
# 166 A: BACK-UP GROUP FOR WHAT PURPOSE?
# 167 Q: TO DO -- DO YOU DO ALL THE INVESTIGATION YOURSELF OR DO YOU HAVE PEOPLE HELP YOU?
# 168 A: NO, I HAVE PEOPLE HELP ME.
# 169 Q: DO YOU HAVE ANY INPUT IN WHO THOSE PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE?
# 170 A: SOMETIMES; NOT ALL TIMES.
# 171 Q: AND IN A CASE THAT INVOLVES SOMETHING THAT IS HIGH PROFILE, YOU WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THE BEST INVESTIGATION POSSIBLE CAN BE DONE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?
# 172 A: I TRY TO DO THAT IN ALL CASES.
# 173 Q: BUT IN A CASE WHERE THERE IS GOING TO BE THE MEDIA PAYING A LOT OF ATTENTION TO YOU, YOU HAVE ADDITIONAL CONCERNS, DO YOU NOT?
# 174 A: I -- I WOULD SAY YES, BUT TO QUALIFY THAT YES ANSWER. I HAVE THE SAME CONCERNS WITH EVERY CASE I HANDLE, THAT IT IS DONE POSSIBLY.
# 175 Q: I APPRECIATE THAT, AND I KNOW THAT YOU WANT TO BE AS PROFESSIONAL AS POSSIBLE ALWAYS. WHAT I'M JUST ASKING OF YOU, DETECTIVE, IS WHEN THERE IS A CASE THAT HAS SUCH INTENSE MEDIA INTEREST, ISN'T THERE A DESIRE ON YOUR PART TO MAKE SURE THAT THE ABSOLUTE ULTIMATE BEST THAT CAN BE DONE WILL BE DONE?
# 177 Q: AND IN THAT REGARD THE TEAM THAT YOU PUT TOGETHER THAT ARE GOING TO AID YOU ARE PEOPLE THAT YOU WOULD WANT TO HAVE FAITH AND TRUST IN?
# 178 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION.
# 179 THE COURT: WHAT IS THE BASIS?
# 180 MR. DARDEN: ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE, THAT HE PUT THE TEAM TOGETHER.
# 181 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 182 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: I WOULD -- I WOULD HOPE THAT THEY WOULD BE QUALIFIED PERSONNEL, YES.
# 183 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: ALL RIGHT. SO -- AND IT WAS NO SECRET THIS WAS A HIGH-PROFILE CASE WHEN YOU GOT THE CALL, WAS IT?
# 184 A: IT TURNED OUT TO BE VERY HIGH PROFILE, YES.
# 185 Q: BUT YOU KNEW IMMEDIATELY THAT IT WAS?
# 186 A: I DIDN'T THINK IT WOULD REACH THE PARAMETERS THAT IT HAS REACHED, BUT YES. I KNEW IT WAS GOING TO BE HIGH PROFILE.
# 187 Q: YOU KNEW IT WAS GOING TO BE BEYOND MOST OF THE CASES YOU EVER HANDLED IN YOUR CAREER, DIDN'T YOU, IMMEDIATELY?
# 188 A: THAT IS VERY SUBJECTIVE WHEN YOU SAY "BEYOND." THE ONLY THING THAT MAKES THIS DIFFERENT AGAIN IS THE AMOUNT OF MEDIA COVERAGE.
# 189 Q: THAT IS WHAT I'M SAYING. FROM A MEDIA PERSPECTIVE YOU KNEW INSTANTLY WHEN YOU GOT THAT PHONE CALL THAT THIS CASE WAS GOING TO HAVE MORE SCRUTINY THAN ANY OTHER CASE YOU HAVE EVER BEEN INVOLVED IN IN YOUR 26 YEARS; IS THAT CORRECT?
# 190 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION. 352 OBJECTION.
# 191 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 192 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: OH, I DIDN'T KNOW THAT IMMEDIATELY. I KNEW IT LATER IN THE DAY, YES.
# 193 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: WHEN -- WOULD YOU, WITH THOSE THOUGHTS IN MIND, TO DO THE ABSOLUTE BEST JOB POSSIBLE, FEEL SECURE IN HAVING A TRAINEE CRIMINALIST INVOLVED IN THIS CASE?
# 194 MR. DARDEN: ANOTHER 352 OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 195 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 196 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: I HAVE NO CONTROL OVER WHO SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION ROLLS TO CRIME SCENES.
KEY QUOTE # 197 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DO YOU HAVE ANY WAY OF CONTACTING THE HEAD OF THE CRIME LAB AND SAYING, "HEY, LOOK, WE'VE GOT A REAL, REAL DELICATE SITUATION HERE. THE COMMANDER HAS EVEN INVOLVED HIMSELF IN THIS CASE TO THE DEGREE OF MAKING PERSONAL NOTIFICATIONS. CAN YOU SEND OUT YOUR TOP PEOPLE?" WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO DO THAT?
# 198 A: I COULD PROBABLY MAKE THAT REQUEST, BUT AGAIN, I DON'T HAVE ANY CONTROL OVER WHO THEY SEND OUT.
# 199 Q: I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT DO YOU HAVE THE ABILITY TO MAKE THAT REQUEST?
# 200 A: OH, YEAH, I COULD MAKE ANY KIND OF REQUEST. WHETHER IT IS FOLLOWED OR NOT IS ANOTHER STORY.
# 201 Q: AND YOU HAVE IN THE PAST REQUESTED CERTAIN PEOPLE WHO YOU KNOW ARE THE TOPS IN THEIR FIELD, HAVE YOU NOT?
# 202 A: TO CRIME SCENES?
# 203 Q: IN ANY PART OF YOUR INVESTIGATIONS, AS THIS CASE WAS GOING ON, YOU CONTINUE TO DO THAT, DON'T YOU?
# 204 A: I -- NO. I WOULDN'T SAY THAT I'VE MADE INDIVIDUAL REQUESTS OF PEOPLE, NO.
# 205 Q: DID YOU ASK FOR THE BEST PEOPLE?
# 206 A: I WOULDN'T SAY I HAVE DONE THAT. I MAKE REQUESTS THROUGH NORMAL CHANNELS.
# 207 Q: NOW, YOU ARE AWARE THAT DETECTIVE PHILLIPS CALLED DOWN TO THE CORONER AND SAID WE ARE NOT GOING TO FOLLOW PROCEDURE ON THIS ONE, WEREN'T YOU? YOU ARE AWARE OF THAT?
# 208 A: YEAH. I SAW HIS TESTIMONY, YES.
# 209 Q: AND THAT MEANT THAT THERE WAS GOING TO BE SOMETHING DIFFERENT DONE, DIDN'T IT?
# 210 A: I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT. "SOMETHING DIFFERENT"? WHAT, SIR?
# 211 Q: COULD IT ALSO BE REQUESTED OF THE CORONER TO SEND OUT THE BEST CORONER'S INVESTIGATORS TO THE SCENE? COULD YOU MAKE THAT REQUEST?
# 212 A: CERTAINLY I COULD MAKE THAT REQUEST. I DON'T KNOW HOW FAR IT WOULD GO, THOUGH.
# 213 Q: DO YOU HAVE A GOOD RELATIONSHIP WITH THE CORONERS?
# 215 Q: DO YOU WORK WITH THEM ALL THE TIME?
# 217 Q: DO YOU KNOW THE CORONER OF LOS ANGELES?
# 219 Q: WHAT IS HIS NAME?
# 221 Q: AND IF YOU CALLED DR. LAKSHMANAN AND TOLD HIM THE SITUATION YOU HAD AND TOLD HIM THERE WAS A PARTICULAR FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST THAT YOU HAD WORKED WITH IN THE PAST AND THAT YOU WORK WITH WELL TOGETHER AND YOU WOULD LIKE HIM TO BE ASSIGNED, WOULD THAT BE SOMETHING HE MIGHT BE RECEPTIVE TO?
# 222 A: I DOUBT THAT VERY SERIOUSLY. I DON'T THINK HE WOULD HONOR MY REQUEST.
# 223 Q: HE WOULDN'T COOPERATE WITH YOU AT ALL?
# 224 A: WELL, I THINK THEIR SCHEDULES ARE SET. IT HAS BEEN MY EXPERIENCE THAT THE PATHOLOGIST'S SCHEDULES ARE SET AND I DON'T THINK THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED IN MY ATTENDING AUTOPSIES.
# 225 Q: WHO IS THE HEAD OF THE CRIME LAB?
# 226 A: AT THE CORONER'S OFFICE?
# 228 A: MICHELE KESTLER NOW.
# 229 Q: DO YOU KNOW HER?
# 230 A: YES, I KNOW HER.
# 231 Q: HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN HER?
# 232 A: PROBABLY TEN YEARS.
# 233 Q: WHEN YOU TALKED TO HER, HOW DO YOU REFER TO HER?
# 235 Q: AND IF YOU CALLED MICHELE AND SAID, "I WOULD LIKE YOUR BEST CRIMINALIST OUT HERE, WE HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION ON OUR HANDS," DO YOU THINK SHE WOULD HONOR THAT REQUEST?
# 236 A: SHE PROBABLY WOULD, YES.
KEY QUOTE # 237 Q: ARE YOU AWARE THAT A TRAINEE WAS SENT OUT TO THE CRIME SCENE?
# 239 Q: WITH NO PREVIOUS HOMICIDE EXPERIENCE?
# 240 A: WELL, I FOUND THAT OUT LATER. I DON'T KNOW WHETHER THAT IS A TRUE STATEMENT. I BELIEVE SHE HAD BEEN ON TWO OR THREE SCENES PRIOR TO THAT.
# 241 Q: IS THAT THE TYPE OF PERSON YOU WOULD LIKE COLLECTING YOUR EVIDENCE UNDER YOUR DIRECTION?
# 242 A: THAT WAS THE PERSON THAT WAS SENT.
# 243 Q: IS THAT THE PERSON YOU WOULD LIKE TO HAVE COLLECTING YOUR EVIDENCE IN A CASE LIKE THIS?
# 244 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT, YOUR HONOR.
# 245 THE COURT: OVERRULED ON THAT GROUND.
# 246 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: I THINK THE PERSON THAT WAS IN CHARGE OF THAT WAS CRIMINALIST FUNG.
# 247 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DO YOU UNDERSTAND MY QUESTION, SIR?
# 248 A: IS THAT THE PERSON I WOULD LIKE?
# 250 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION THEN, ARGUMENTATIVE.
# 251 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 252 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: I REALLY HAVE NO CONTROL OVER THAT. OF COURSE I WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THE MOST QUALIFIED PERSON DO EVERYTHING FOR ME, BUT THAT IS NOT THE PRACTICAL WORLD.
# 253 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: DO YOU VIEW A TRAINEE AS THE MOST QUALIFIED PERSON?
# 255 Q: DO YOU VIEW A TRAINEE AS BEING QUALIFIED AT ALL TO DO ANYTHING IN A CRIME SCENE?
# 256 A: THAT IS HOW THEY BECOME QUALIFIED, BY DOING IT UNDER MORE EXPERIENCED PEOPLE.
KEY QUOTE # 257 Q: AND WAS THIS A GOOD CASE FOR PEOPLE TO LEARN FROM?
# 258 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.
# 259 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 260 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: IN CONDUCTING -- IN CONDUCTING THIS INVESTIGATION, YOU'VE HAD ACCESS TO MANY OTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES, HAVE YOU NOT?
# 261 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) # 262 MR. DARDEN: THAT IS VAGUE, YOUR HONOR.
# 263 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
# 264 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: HAVE YOU DEALT WITH OTHER LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES TO AID YOU IN THE INVESTIGATION OF THE HOMICIDES?
# 266 Q: HAVE YOU DEALT WITH INTERPOL?
# 268 Q: HAS INTERPOL PARTICIPATED AT ALL IN THIS CASE?
# 269 A: NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE.
# 270 Q: YOU HAVEN'T SEEN ANY REPORTS GENERATED FROM INTERPOL?
# 272 Q: AND YOU ARE THE LEAD DETECTIVE?
# 273 A: ONE OF THE LEAD DETECTIVES, YES.
# 274 Q: AND ALL OF THE REPORTS THAT COME INTO THIS CASE COME THROUGH YOU?
# 275 A: NO, THAT IS NOT TRUE.
# 276 Q: I WOULD TAKE IT YOU WOULD WANT TO SEE THE REPORTS THAT COME IN IN THIS CASE FROM OTHER POLICE AGENCIES, WOULD YOU NOT?
# 278 Q: AND HAVE YOU DONE THAT?
# 279 A: I HAVE SEEN EVERYTHING THAT HAS COME TO OUR OFFICE, YES.
# 280 Q: AND SO TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE NOTHING HAS COME IN FROM INTERPOL?
# 281 A: I DON'T RECALL ANYTHING FROM INTERPOL.
# 282 Q: HAS ANY INVESTIGATION TAKEN PLACE IN EUROPE ON THIS CASE?
# 283 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, CALLS FOR HEARSAY.
# 284 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 285 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: YES.
# 286 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: HAS ANY INVESTIGATION IN THIS CASE TAKEN PLACE IN CANADA?
# 287 A: I'M NOT AWARE OF CANADA.
# 288 Q: HAS MY INVESTIGATION IN THIS CASE TAKEN PLACE IN FLORIDA?
# 290 Q: HAS ANY INVESTIGATION IN THIS CASE TAKEN PLACE IN NEW YORK?
# 292 Q: HAS ANY INVESTIGATION IN THIS CASE TAKEN PLACE IN ARIZONA?
# 293 A: I BELIEVE SO, YES.
# 294 Q: WHAT OTHER STATES HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE INVESTIGATION OF THIS CASE, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
# 295 A: CONNECTICUT. THAT IS THE ONLY OTHER STATE THAT COMES TO MIND AT THIS POINT.
# 296 Q: HAVE YOU BEEN OUT OF STATE PERSONALLY TO INVESTIGATE ANY ASPECT OF THIS CASE?
# 298 Q: WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?
# 299 A: CONNECTICUT AND WASHINGTON D.C.
# 300 Q: AND IN WASHINGTON D.C. YOU MET WITH THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION?
# 302 Q: AND IS THAT THE FIRST TIME YOU'VE CALLED UPON THEM FOR HELP IN A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION?
# 304 Q: HOW MANY OTHER OCCASIONS HAVE YOU USED THE FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION?
# 305 A: MANY TIMES PROBABLY.
# 309 A: I COULDN'T TELL YOU OVER THE 26 YEARS. I'VE WORKED WITH THEM ON MANY, MANY CASES.
# 310 Q: NOT WHEN YOU WORKED WITH THEM, THAT YOU AS A LEAD DETECTIVE HAVE CONTACTED THE FBI TO AID IN THE INVESTIGATION, DIRECTLY AID IN THE INVESTIGATION?
# 311 MR. DARDEN: OBJECTION, THAT IS VAGUE.
# 312 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
# 313 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER: I -- I'M NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND. "DIRECTLY AID" IN MY INVESTIGATION?
# 314 Q: BY MR. SHAPIRO: YES.
# 315 A: ANY TIME I CONTACT THEM WITH A REQUEST FOR ASSISTANCE, THAT IS DIRECT AID, SO I HAVE DONE IT MANY, MANY TIMES.
# 316 Q: HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU GONE TO WASHINGTON TO MEET WITH THE FBI IN THE PAST?
# 317 A: THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME, I BELIEVE.