Direct examination of Det. Philip Vannatter (part 2)

📄 Direct examination of Det. Philip Vannatter (part 2) — Friday, March 17, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\17\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-DET-PHIL.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 40 of 167

◀ Motion: videotape evidence admission Jury instructions and recess ▶

Witness: Det. Philip Vannatter
Examiner: Christopher Darden
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Friday, March 17, 1995 • Utterances: 367

Darden walks Vannatter through the events of June 13th at Rockingham and Parker Center: Simpson's unauthorized handcuffing by Officer Thompson, Vannatter's decision to remove the cuffs and not arrest Simpson despite calling him a 'very strong suspect,' the voluntary drive to Parker Center, a 20-30 minute private attorney-client meeting with Weitzman and Skip Taft, Weitzman's departure to lunch before the interview, and the photographing of a laceration on Simpson's left middle finger that Vannatter connected to the blood drops at Bundy. The session ends with the introduction of People's 123, a photograph of that wound.

# 1 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 2 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

# 3 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED.

# 4 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 5 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. YOU MAY PROCEED, MR. DARDEN.

# 6 MR. DARDEN:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 7 Q:

DETECTIVE, WHEN YOU ARRIVED BACK AT ROCKINGHAM, YOU SAY YOU ARRIVED AT TWELVE O'CLOCK NOON?

# 8 A:

APPROXIMATELY NOON, YES.

# 9 Q:

OKAY. AND WAS MR. SIMPSON THERE AT THE PROPERTY AT THAT TIME?

# 10 A:

NO.

# 11 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU SEE MR. SIMPSON AT ROCKINGHAM SOMETIME THAT DAY?

# 12 A:

YES.

# 13 Q:

AND DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME AT ALL?

# 14 A:

APPROXIMATELY TEN MINUTES OR SO AFTER I ARRIVED.

# 15 Q:

OKAY. AND WAS HE CARRYING ANYTHING THAT YOU SAW?

# 16 A:

WHEN I FIRST SAW HIM?

# 17 Q:

YES.

# 18 A:

NO, SIR.

# 19 Q:

DID YOU SEE ANY LAWYERS ON THE PROPERTY OR ANYONE YOU KNEW TO BE A LAWYER ON THE PROPERTY AT THAT TIME?

# 20 A:

I SAW A LAWYER BY THE ROCKINGHAM GATE, YES.

# 21 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU RECOGNIZE THAT LAWYER?

# 22 A:

I DID.

# 23 Q:

THIS LAWYER WAS A LAWYER YOU HAD SEEN IN THE PAST?

# 24 A:

YES.

# 25 Q:

AND WHO WAS THAT LAWYER?

# 26 A:

HOWARD WEITZMAN.

# 27 Q:

WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT NOON DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH MR. WEITZMAN AT ALL?

# 28 A:

JUST TO GREET HIM, JUST HELLO TYPE CONVERSATION.

# 29 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU ALLOW MR. WEITZMAN TO WALK ONTO THE PROPERTY AT THAT TIME, THAT IS, AT 12:00 NOON?

# 30 A:

NO.

# 31 Q:

AND WHY NOT?

# 32 A:

BECAUSE IT WAS A SEALED CRIME SCENE.

# 33 Q:

OKAY. DID HE ASK PERMISSION TO WALK ONTO THE PROPERTY AT THAT TIME?

# 34 A:

NO.

# 35 Q:

WHERE WAS MR. SIMPSON THE FIRST TIME YOU SAW HIM THAT DAY?

# 36 A:

WALKING ACROSS THE DRIVEWAY IN THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE.

# 37 Q:

AND COULD YOU SEE HIS HANDS AT THAT TIME?

# 38 A:

I COULD.

# 39 Q:

WHERE WERE THEY?

# 40 A:

HE WAS HANDCUFFED.

# 41 Q:

HAD YOU HANDCUFFED MR. SIMPSON?

# 42 A:

NO.

# 43 Q:

SOMEONE ELSE HAD HANDCUFFED HIM?

# 44 A:

APPARENTLY. I DIDN'T.

# 45 Q:

OKAY. HAD YOU ORDERED SOMEONE TO HANDCUFF HIM?

# 46 A:

NO.

# 47 Q:

HAD YOU ORDERED SOMEONE OR ANYONE TO ARREST HIM?

# 48 A:

NO.

# 49 Q:

IF YOU KNOW, DETECTIVE, HOW IS IT THAT THIS DEFENDANT WAS HANDCUFFED THAT DAY?

# 50 A:

WHEN I ARRIVED --

# 51 MR. SHAPIRO:

I'M GOING TO OBJECT, YOUR HONOR, SPECULATION.

# 52 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 53 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: OKAY. YOU TOLD US A WHILE AGO THAT YOU WERE ACQUAINTED WITH OFFICER THOMPSON?

# 54 A:

I AM NOW; I WASN'T THEN.

# 55 Q:

DID YOU SPEAK TO OFFICER THOMPSON WHEN YOU ARRIVED AT NOON?

# 56 A:

YES.

# 57 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU ASK HIM TO DO SOMETHING?

# 58 A:

I DID.

# 59 Q:

WHAT DID YOU ASK HIM TO DO?

# 60 A:

TO MAKE SURE THAT MR. SIMPSON WASN'T ABLE TO ENTER THE PROPERTY IF HE SHOWED UP THERE.

# 61 Q:

DID YOU ASK HIM TO DO ANYTHING ELSE?

# 62 A:

I ASKED HIM TO DETAIN HIM THERE IN FRONT AND LET ME KNOW THAT HE WAS THERE.

# 63 Q:

YOU ASKED OFFICER THOMPSON TO DETAIN MR. SIMPSON?

# 64 A:

YES AND LET ME KNOW THAT HE WAS PRESENT.

# 65 Q:

AND YOU HAVE BEEN A POLICE OFFICER HOW MANY YEARS NOW, DETECTIVE?

# 66 A:

OVER 26.

# 67 Q:

OKAY. THIS TERM THAT YOU JUST USED, "DETAINED," WHAT DID THAT TERM MEAN TO YOU?

# 68 A:

IT JUST MEANS TO ASK A PERSON OR HAVE A PERSON STAY AT A CERTAIN LOCATION. IT IS NOT PHYSICALLY PUTTING HIM UNDER ARREST OR TAKING HIM INTO CUSTODY.

# 69 Q:

WELL, WHEN YOU TOLD OFFICER THOMPSON TO DETAIN MR. SIMPSON IN FRONT OF THE PROPERTY, DID YOU INTEND TO CONVEY TO HIM THAT HE SHOULD HANDCUFF MR. SIMPSON?

# 70 A:

NO, SIR.

# 71 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU EVER USE THE TERM "HANDCUFF" OR THE WORD "HANDCUFF" WHEN YOU POSED THIS QUESTION TO OFFICER THOMPSON?

# 72 A:

NO.

# 73 Q:

WHEN YOU SAW MR. SIMPSON HANDCUFFED ON THE PROPERTY, THAT FIRST TIME, WAS HE IN THE COMPANY OF SOMEONE?

# 74 A:

OFFICER THOMPSON.

# 75 Q:

AND WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN YOU SAW THE DEFENDANT HANDCUFFED WITH OFFICER THOMPSON?

# 76 A:

I WENT OUT TO HIS LOCATION.

# 77 Q:

AND DOES THAT MEAN YOU WENT TO MR. SIMPSON?

# 78 A:

YES. I EXITED THE RESIDENCE AND WALKED TO WHERE MR. SIMPSON WAS.

# 79 Q:

OKAY. NOW, WHERE WAS MR. WEITZMAN AT THAT TIME?

# 80 A:

HE WAS STILL AT THE ROCKINGHAM GATE.

# 81 Q:

OKAY. AND WHAT, IF ANYTHING, OCCURRED WHEN YOU WALKED OVER TO MR. SIMPSON?

# 82 A:

I EXPLAINED THE REASON I WAS THERE, WHAT WAS HAPPENING, WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN, AND MR. SIMPSON'S ATTORNEY CAME WALKING UP AND ASKED IF HE COULD JOIN THE CONVERSATION AND I SAID YES.

# 83 Q:

OKAY. DID MR. WEITZMAN ASK YOU TO DO ANYTHING?

# 84 A:

YES.

# 85 Q:

WHAT DID HE ASK YOU TO DO?

# 86 A:

HE ASKED ME TO TAKE THE HANDCUFFS OFF.

# 87 Q:

DID YOU HAVE THE KEY TO THE HANDCUFFS?

# 88 A:

I HAVE A HANDCUFF KEY, YES.

# 89 Q:

DID YOU TAKE THE CUFFS OFF?

# 90 A:

YES.

# 91 Q:

WHY DID YOU TAKE THE CUFFS OFF MR. SIMPSON?

# 92 A:

BECAUSE HE WAS NOT UNDER ARREST AT THAT TIME.

# 93 Q:

BUT YOU CONSIDERED HIM A SUSPECT; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 94 A:

HE WAS A VERY STRONG SUSPECT.

KEY QUOTE

# 95 Q:

YOU CONSIDERED HIM A SUSPECT IN TWO BRUTAL MURDERS?

# 96 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 97 Q:

WHY DIDN'T YOU ARREST HIM AT THAT TIME?

# 98 A:

WELL, KNOWING THE SITUATION THAT I WAS IN, THE AMOUNT OF PRESS THAT WAS PRESENT, I FELT IT BETTER TO CONTINUE THE INVESTIGATION AND OBTAIN ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE, SUCH AS SEROLOGY EVIDENCE, BEFORE PRESENTING THE CASE TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE FOR FILING. I REALIZE I ONLY HAVE A 48-HOUR TIME FRAME TO PUT TOGETHER AND FILE A CRIMINAL CASE IF A PERSON IS IN CUSTODY.

# 99 Q:

WHY WAS THE MEDIA'S PRESENCE AT ALL A FACTOR IN THE DECISION TO TAKE THE HANDCUFFS OFF?

# 100 A:

JUST THE OVERWHELMING AMOUNT OF MEDIA THAT WAS PRESENT. IT IS -- IT HAD TURNED INTO A MEDIA FEST, AND WITH WHO I WAS DEALING WITH, I WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT I HAD A SUFFICIENT CASE BEFORE PRESENTING THAT CASE TO THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE FOR FILING. AGAIN, I REALIZE I ONLY HAVE 48 HOURS TO EITHER FILE THE CASE OR TURN THE PERSON LOOSE AND I THOUGHT IT WOULD TAKE ME LONGER THAN THAT, PROBABLY AN ADDITIONAL DAY PAST THAT, TO GET ANY KIND OF SEROLOGY TESTING DONE. THAT IS WHY I DIDN'T PLACE HIM UNDER ARREST AT THAT POINT.

# 101 MR. SHAPIRO:

MOTION TO STRIKE, NONRESPONSIVE.

# 102 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 103 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THE JURY IS TO DISREGARD THE ANSWER AFTER "AGAIN I REALIZE I ONLY HAVE 48 HOURS," THAT PART IS STRICKEN FROM THE RECORD AS BEING NONRESPONSIVE.

# 104 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 105 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: IF I CAN GO BACK AND ASK THAT SAME QUESTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 106 THE COURT:

YOU ASKED HIM IF THE MEDIA HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH HIS DECISION NOT TO ARREST. HE TOLD US ABOUT IT BEING A MEDIA FEST.

# 107 MR. DARDEN:

YOU STRUCK THE ENTIRE ANSWER, DID YOU?

# 108 THE COURT:

NO. I STRUCK AGAIN FROM "AGAIN I KNEW I ONLY HAD 48 HOURS," THAT PART, SINCE THE JURY HAS HEARD IT ONCE ALREADY.

# 109 MR. DARDEN:

OKAY.

# 110 Q:

DETECTIVE VANNATTER, WHEN YOU RELEASED THE HANDCUFFS FROM MR. -- MR. SIMPSON'S WRIST, DID YOU HAVE THE SEROLOGY RESULTS, TEST RESULTS?

# 111 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION, LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.

# 112 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 113 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER:

NO.

# 114 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAD SUFFICIENT TIME TO EVALUATE ALL OF THE EVIDENCE YOU HAD UP TO THAT POINT?

# 115 A:

I HAD ENOUGH PROBABLE CAUSE TO MAKE AN ARREST, ABSOLUTELY, BUT I WANTED TO CONTINUE THE INVESTIGATION TO -- TO ENSURE THAT EVERYTHING I HAD WAS WHAT I BELIEVED I HAD, AND TO ENSURE THAT I HAD A CASE FOR FILING WHEN IT WAS PRESENTED.

# 116 MR. SHAPIRO:

MOTION TO STRIKE AS NONRESPONSIVE.

# 117 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 118 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: SO DO I UNDERSTAND YOU TO SAY, DETECTIVE, THAT IN YOUR MIND YOU COULD HAVE ARRESTED MR. SIMPSON AT THAT TIME?

# 119 A:

OH, ABSOLUTELY I COULD HAVE, YES.

KEY QUOTE

# 120 MR. DARDEN:

CAN I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

# 121 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 122 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: YOU REALIZED THAT THE DEFENDANT WAS A CELEBRITY, DID YOU?

# 123 A:

YES.

# 124 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION, LEADING.

# 125 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 126 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: WHAT SIGNIFICANCE, IF ANY, DID YOU ATTACH TO HIS CELEBRITY STATUS AT THAT TIME?

# 127 A:

CELEBRITY STATUS REALLY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY FEELINGS REGARDING ARRESTING OR FILING CRIMINAL CHARGES ON SOMEONE. THAT MEANT NOTHING TO ME, THE FACT THAT HE WAS A CELEBRITY. WHAT I WAS INTERESTED IN WAS KNOWING THE FILING POLICY, I WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE CASE WAS A FILEABLE CASE BEFORE THE ARREST WAS MADE.

# 128 Q:

IS THAT WHAT YOU DO IN ALL CASES, DETECTIVE?

# 129 A:

ABSOLUTELY.

# 130 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 131 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: YOU MENTIONED A MOMENT AGO THAT HAD YOU ARRESTED MR. SIMPSON THAT YOU WOULD HAVE HAD TO HAVE FILED A CASE WITHIN 48 HOURS; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 132 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 133 Q:

YOU HAVE SENT BLOOD AND BIOLOGICAL EVIDENCE TO THE LAB, TO THE CRIME LAB IN THE PAST FOR ANALYSIS; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 134 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 135 Q:

AND IS THERE A STANDARD TIME OR STANDARD TURN-AROUND TIME WHEN YOU SEND EVIDENCE TO THE CRIME LAB?

# 136 A:

NO. IT VARIES FROM CASE TO CASE. I HAVE NEVER GOTTEN ANYTHING BACK IN THAT AMOUNT OF TIME, IN MY CAREER.

# 137 Q:

DID YOU EVER GET ANYTHING BACK THE SAME DAY?

# 138 A:

NEVER.

# 139 Q:

AND YOU KNEW THAT?

# 140 A:

I KNEW THAT.

# 141 Q:

NOW, DID YOU HAVE A FURTHER CONVERSATION WITH MR. WEITZMAN AFTER YOU TOOK THE HANDCUFFS OFF THE DEFENDANT?

# 142 A:

YES.

# 143 Q:

AND DID YOU ASK HIM TO DO SOMETHING?

# 144 A:

YES.

# 145 Q:

WHAT DID YOU ASK MR. WEITZMAN TO DO?

# 146 A:

TO FOLLOW ME TO PARKER CENTER.

# 147 Q:

WHY?

# 148 A:

HE WANTED TO BE WITH HIS CLIENT, MR. SIMPSON.

# 149 Q:

YOU WERE GOING TO TAKE MR. SIMPSON TO PARKER CENTER?

# 150 A:

YES.

# 151 Q:

WAS HE UNDER ARREST?

# 152 A:

NO.

# 153 Q:

WAS HE FREE TO LEAVE?

# 154 A:

IF HE WOULD HAVE WANTED TO AT THAT POINT HE COULD HAVE, YES.

# 155 Q:

HE WAS FREE TO LEAVE DESPITE YOUR BELIEF?

# 156 A:

I HAD ASKED HIM VOLUNTARILY TO ACCOMPANY ME TO PARKER CENTER FOR AN INTERVIEW. HE AGREED TO. MR. WEITZMAN WANTED TO BE WITH HIM. I ASKED HIM TO FOLLOW ME TO PARKER CENTER. HE WAS NOT UNDER ARREST AT THAT POINT.

# 157 Q:

AND DID YOU DRIVE THE DEFENDANT TO PARKER CENTER?

# 158 A:

YES, SIR, I DID.

# 159 Q:

AND WAS HE IN HANDCUFFS DURING THAT DRIVE?

# 160 A:

HE WAS NOT.

# 161 Q:

BUT HE WAS A SUSPECT?

# 162 A:

YES.

# 163 Q:

HAVE YOU IN THE PAST DRIVEN OTHER MURDER SUSPECTS TO THE POLICE STATION IN YOUR POLICE VEHICLE?

# 164 A:

YES, MANY TIMES.

# 165 Q:

AND DID YOU HANDCUFF THEM?

# 166 A:

SOME OF THEM; NOT ALL OF THEM.

# 167 Q:

DID MR. -- MR. WEITZMAN FOLLOW YOU AND THE DEFENDANT TO PARKER CENTER?

# 168 A:

HE MET US AT PARKER CENTER, YES.

# 169 Q:

OKAY. AND DID YOU HAVE A FURTHER CONVERSATION WITH MR. WEITZMAN AT THAT TIME?

# 170 A:

I DID.

# 171 Q:

WHAT WAS THAT CONVERSATION?

# 172 A:

HE REQUESTED --

# 173 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION. OBJECTION.

# 174 THE COURT:

WHAT IS THE OBJECTION?

# 175 MR. SHAPIRO:

HEARSAY.

# 176 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 177 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU ASK MR. WEITZMAN TO DO ANYTHING?

# 178 A:

MR. WEITZMAN ASKED ME TO DO SOMETHING.

# 179 Q:

OKAY. WHAT DID HE ASK YOU TO DO?

# 180 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION, HEARSAY.

# 181 MR. DARDEN:

IT IS A QUESTION, YOUR HONOR. IT IS NOT OFFERED --

# 182 THE COURT:

I'M GOING TO SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE HEARD.

# 183 MR. DARDEN:

OKAY.

# 184 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. WITH THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE.

# 185 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD AT THE BENCH:)

# 186 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THE QUESTION -- THE QUESTION WAS WHAT DID -- ABOUT WHAT MR. WEITZMAN SAID TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER. THE OBJECTION IS HEARSAY WHICH APPEARS TO BE WELL TAKEN. MR. DARDEN?

# 187 MR. DARDEN:

OKAY. WELL, THE QUESTION IS WHAT, IF ANYTHING, MR. WEITZMAN ASKED HIM TO DO IS THE QUESTION. IT IS NOT OFFERED FOR THE TRUTH OF THE MATTER STATED. QUESTIONS ARE NOT HEARSAY.

# 188 THE COURT:

ARE YOU SAYING THAT IT IS OFFERED TO EXPLAIN SUBSEQUENT ACTION?

# 189 MR. DARDEN:

AND TO -- YEAH, AND FOR STATE OF MIND.

# 190 THE COURT:

WHAT IS THE ANSWER GOING TO BE?

# 191 MR. DARDEN:

THE ANSWER IS GOING TO BE THAT HE ASKED FOR PERMISSION TO SPEAK WITH HIS CLIENT ALONE FOR SEVERAL MINUTES, WHICH WAS GRANTED.

# 192 THE COURT:

OKAY.

# 193 MR. DARDEN:

AND HE IS GOING TO --

# 194 MR. SHAPIRO:

MAY WE HAVE A MOMENT, PLEASE?

# 195 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

# 196 MR. SHAPIRO:

YOUR HONOR, MAY WE ASK THE COURT TO INQUIRE WHAT THE FOLLOW-UP QUESTION WOULD BE, IF ANY, SO WE DON'T HAVE TO COME UP HERE AGAIN?

# 197 THE COURT:

FOLLOW-UP QUESTION?

# 198 MR. DARDEN:

DID HE ALLOW HIM TIME ALONE WITH HIS LAWYER.

# 199 MR. SHAPIRO:

FOLLOW-UP AFTER THAT.

# 200 MR. COCHRAN:

PUT THE STATEMENT IN.

# 201 MR. SHAPIRO:

THAT IS WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW.

# 202 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT?

# 203 MR. DARDEN:

I AM NOT ABOUT TO PUT THE STATEMENT IN, IF THAT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO KNOW.

# 204 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. AFTER THE -- AFTER THEY REQUIRE -- AFTER WEITZMAN AND SIMPSON CONFER, THEN WHAT HAPPENS?

# 205 MR. DARDEN:

WELL, WHAT HAPPENS IS THEY HAVE AN INTERVIEW.

# 206 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. ARE YOU GOING TO BRING THAT OUT?

# 207 MR. DARDEN:

WELL, THERE IS FURTHER CONVERSATION ACTUALLY. AFTER THAT HAPPENS THE DETECTIVE ASKED WEITZMAN IF HE WOULD LIKE TO BE PRESENT DURING ANY SUBSEQUENT INTERVIEW, WHICH WEITZMAN SAID NO, AND HE ASKED WEITZMAN IF HE WOULD LIKE THE INTERVIEW TAPED.

# 208 MR. SHAPIRO:

WE WILL WITHDRAW OUR OBJECTION.

# 209 THE COURT:

OKAY.

# 210 MR. DARDEN:

AUDIOTAPED.

# 211 THE COURT:

OKAY.

# 212 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

# 213 THE COURT:

COUNSEL, MR. DARDEN, PROCEED.

# 214 MR. DARDEN:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 215 Q:

DETECTIVE VANNATTER, YOU TESTIFIED A MOMENT AGO THAT MR. WEITZMAN ASKED YOU FOR SOMETHING OR TO DO SOMETHING?

# 216 A:

YES.

# 217 Q:

AND WHAT DID HE ASK?

# 218 A:

HE ASKED TO SPEAK WITH HIS CLIENT AND FOR ME TO PROVIDE A ROOM FOR HIM TO SPEAK WITH HIM IN PRIVACY.

# 219 Q:

AND DID YOU PROVIDE MR. WEITZMAN AND THE DEFENDANT A ROOM WHERE THEY COULD SPEAK PRIVATELY?

# 220 A:

YES, MR. WEITZMAN, MR. SIMPSON AND ANOTHER MAN.

# 221 Q:

AND WHO WAS THAT OTHER MAN?

# 222 A:

AN ATTORNEY, I LATER LEARNED, SKIP TAFT.

# 223 Q:

MR. SIMPSON'S BUSINESS LAWYER?

# 224 A:

THAT'S CORRECT, YES.

# 225 Q:

SO ALL THREE MEN, THE DEFENDANT AND MR. TAFT AND MR. WEITZMAN, WENT INTO A ROOM?

# 226 A:

YES.

# 227 Q:

DID THEY CLOSE THE DOOR?

# 228 A:

YES.

# 229 Q:

DID YOU WAIT FOR THEM?

# 230 A:

YES.

# 231 Q:

WHERE DID YOU WAIT FOR MR. WEITZMAN AND MR. TAFT AND THE DEFENDANT?

# 232 A:

IN THE RECEPTION AREA OF ROBBERY/HOMICIDE DIVISION.

# 233 Q:

DID YOU GUARD THE DOOR, THE DOOR -- THE DOOR LEADING -- THE DOOR LEADING TO THE ROOM THAT THEY WERE IN?

# 234 A:

I COULD SEE THE DOOR, YES. I WAS IN THE SECRETARY'S AREA. THE INTERVIEW ROOMS ARE ALONG ONE WALL OF THAT AREA.

# 235 Q:

OKAY. WAS THE DEFENDANT HANDCUFFED AT THAT TIME?

# 236 A:

NO.

# 237 Q:

WAS HE UNDER ARREST?

# 238 A:

NO.

# 239 Q:

HOW LONG DID MR. WEITZMAN AND MR. TAFT AND THE DEFENDANT REMAIN IN THAT ROOM?

# 240 A:

PROBABLY TWENTY TO THIRTY MINUTES.

# 241 Q:

DID YOU INTERRUPT THEM AT ANY TIME?

# 242 A:

I DID NOT.

# 243 Q:

DID YOU EVER ASK THEM TO HURRY UP?

# 244 A:

NO.

# 245 Q:

YOU NEVER ASKED THEM TO HURRY UP AND CONCLUDE THEIR CONVERSATION OR WHATEVER IT WAS THEY WERE DOING IN THERE?

# 246 A:

NO.

# 247 Q:

DID YOU OVERHEAR ANY PART OR ANY PORTION OF ANY CONVERSATION THE DEFENDANT HAD WITH HIS LAWYERS?

# 248 A:

NO.

# 249 Q:

DID YOU ATTEMPT TO?

# 250 A:

NO.

# 251 Q:

AT SOME POINT DID THE DEFENDANT AND MR. TAFT AND MR. WEITZMAN EXIT THE ROOM?

# 252 A:

MR. WEITZMAN AND MR. TAFT DID. SIMPSON REMAINED IN THE ROOM.

# 253 Q:

HAD YOU TOLD HIM EARLIER TO REMAIN IN THE ROOM?

# 254 A:

WELL, I THINK THAT WAS UNDERSTOOD, THAT WE WERE GOING TO INTERVIEW HIM, YES.

# 255 Q:

NOW, WHEN MR. WEITZMAN AND MR. TAFT CAME OUT OF THAT ROOM, DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH THEM?

# 256 A:

YES.

# 257 Q:

WHAT WAS THAT CONVERSATION?

# 258 A:

THAT WE WANTED TO INTERVIEW HIS CLIENT.

# 259 Q:

AND DID YOU MAKE ANY OFFERS AT ALL TO MR. WEITZMAN OR MR. TAFT AT THAT TIME?

# 260 A:

YES.

# 261 Q:

AND WHAT WAS THAT?

# 262 A:

I INVITED MR. WEITZMAN TO STAY IF HE WANTED TO.

# 263 Q:

DID YOU EVER TELL MR. WEITZMAN THAT HE COULD NOT BE PRESENT DURING ANY INTERVIEW OR CONVERSATION YOU MIGHT HAVE WITH THE DEFENDANT?

# 264 A:

I DID NOT.

# 265 Q:

AND WHEN YOU TOLD MR. WEITZMAN THAT HE COULD REMAIN, IF HE WANTED TO, WHAT DID HE SAY?

# 266 A:

HE SAID HE DIDN'T NEED TO. THE ONLY PARAMETERS HE WANTED WAS FOR ME TO TAPE-RECORD THE CONVERSATION.

KEY QUOTE

# 267 Q:

MR. WEITZMAN SAY WHERE HE WAS GOING?

# 268 A:

YEAH. HE SAID HE WAS GOING TO GO TO LUNCH.

# 269 Q:

AND WAS MR. TAFT PRESENT DURING THIS CONVERSATION?

# 270 A:

YES.

# 271 Q:

AND WHAT DID MR. WEITZMAN DO AFTER HE TOLD YOU THAT HE WAS GOING TO GO TO LUNCH?

# 272 A:

I OBSERVED HIM AND MR. TAFT LEAVE THE AREA THAT I WAS IN HEADED TOWARD THE EXIT OF THE FLOOR OF THE BUILDING.

# 273 Q:

HOW LONG WAS MR. SIMPSON, THE DEFENDANT, AT PARKER CENTER THAT AFTERNOON, IF YOU KNOW?

# 274 A:

THREE TO THREE AND A HALF HOURS, APPROXIMATELY.

# 275 Q:

AND WHAT TIME DID YOU AND THE DEFENDANT ARRIVE AT PARKER CENTER, IF YOU RECALL?

# 276 A:

I BELIEVE IT WAS -- I BELIEVE IT WAS AROUND 12:40, 12:45, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

# 277 Q:

WHAT TIME DID MR. SIMPSON LEAVE PARKER CENTER THAT DAY?

# 278 A:

I BELIEVE 3:30, THE AREA OF 3:30, SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

# 279 Q:

AND WAS THE MEDIA PRESENT OUTSIDE PARKER CENTER WHEN YOU ARRIVED?

# 280 A:

YES.

# 281 Q:

AND WERE THEY PRESENT WHEN MR. SIMPSON LEFT?

# 282 A:

YES.

# 283 Q:

AND WHEN MR. SIMPSON LEFT PARKER CENTER, WAS HE IN POLICE CUSTODY?

# 284 A:

NO.

# 285 Q:

WAS HE HANDCUFFED?

# 286 A:

NO.

# 287 Q:

DID HE LEAVE WITH YOU?

# 288 A:

NO.

# 289 Q:

WHO DID HE LEAVE WITH?

# 290 A:

MR. WEITZMAN.

# 291 Q:

IF WE CAN GO BACK A MOMENT TO THAT POINT IN TIME IN WHICH YOU REMOVED THE HANDCUFFS FROM THE DEFENDANT. AT THAT TIME DID YOU SEE THE DEFENDANT'S HAND?

# 292 A:

YES.

# 293 Q:

DID YOU NOTICE ANYTHING UNUSUAL?

# 294 A:

YES.

# 295 Q:

AND WHAT DID YOU NOTICE?

# 296 A:

THAT HE HAD A BANDAGE ON THE MIDDLE FINGER OF HIS LEFT HAND ON THE UPPER KNUCKLE OF THE MIDDLE FINGER.

# 297 Q:

AND DID YOU NOTE TO OBSERVE ANY INJURY TO THAT FINGER AT THAT TIME?

# 298 A:

NOT AT THAT TIME. I DID SUBSEQUENT TO THAT, AFTER ARRIVING AT PARKER CENTER.

# 299 Q:

OKAY. WELL, WHAT SIGNIFICANCE, IF ANY, DID YOU ATTACH TO YOUR INITIAL OBSERVATION OF THE BANDAGE?

# 300 A:

IT APPEARED THAT HE HAD AN INJURED KNUCKLE ON THE LEFT MIDDLE FINGER OF HIS LEFT HAND.

# 301 Q:

DID YOU CONSIDER THAT SIGNIFICANT AT ALL?

# 302 A:

OH, I CERTAINLY DID, YES.

# 303 Q:

AND WHAT -- WHAT SIGNIFICANCE DID YOU ATTACH TO THAT INJURY ON THE DEFENDANT'S LEFT HAND?

# 304 MR. SHAPIRO:

OBJECTION, IRRELEVANT.

# 305 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 306 DET. PHILIP VANNATTER:

WELL, GOING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL CRIME SCENE AT BUNDY, SEEING THE DISTINCT SINGLE SET OF SHOEPRINTS, BLOOD SHOEPRINTS LEADING AWAY WITH BLOOD DROPS ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE SHOEPRINTS AND THEN TRACKING THE BLOOD TRAIL BY VEHICLE TO ROCKINGHAM, PICKING UP THE BLOOD TRAIL AT ROCKINGHAM THAT WENT RIGHT INTO HIS HOUSE, IT WOULD APPEAR THAT -- THAT HE HAD THE INJURY THAT WAS -- THAT WOULD HAVE CAUSED THOSE BLOOD DROPS ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE BLOODY FOOTPRINTS.

KEY QUOTE

# 307 Q:

DURING THE TIME THAT THE DEFENDANT WAS AT PARKER CENTER DID YOU PHOTOGRAPH HIS HANDS?

# 308 A:

I DID.

# 309 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU PHOTOGRAPH HIS HAND -- HIS LEFT HAND?

# 310 A:

YES.

# 311 Q:

AND DID YOU DO THAT PERSONALLY OR DID YOU HAVE SOMEONE DO IT FOR YOU?

# 312 A:

I HAD A PHOTOGRAPHER DO IT.

# 313 MR. DARDEN:

MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

# 314 THE COURT:

CERTAINLY.

# 315 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 316 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: NOW, PRIOR TO PHOTOGRAPHING THE DEFENDANT'S LEFT HAND DID HE REMOVE THE BANDAGE?

# 317 A:

YES. THE BANDAGE WAS TAKEN OFF.

# 318 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU TAKE IT OFF OR DID HE TAKE IT OFF?

# 319 A:

HE DID.

# 320 Q:

OKAY. WERE YOU ABLE TO OBSERVE THE INJURY AT THAT TIME?

# 321 A:

YES.

# 322 Q:

CAN YOU DESCRIBE IT FOR US?

# 323 A:

YES. IT WAS A -- HIS KNUCKLE APPEARED TO BE SWOLLEN AND IT IS THE UPPER KNUCKLE OF THE MIDDLE FINGER OF HIS LEFT HAND, APPEARED TO BE SWOLLEN AND THERE APPEARED TO BE A LACERATION THAT RUN UP AND DOWN ACROSS THE KNUCKLE, AND THEN DIRECTLY BELOW THAT TOWARD THE FIRST KNUCKLE THERE APPEARED TO BE A SMALLER LACERATION THAT RAN ACROSS THE FINGER AND DOWN.

# 324 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 325 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: DID YOU TAKE A SAMPLE OF THE DEFENDANT'S BLOOD THAT AFTERNOON?

# 326 A:

I HAD IT DONE. I DIDN'T DO IT, BUT I HAD IT DONE.

# 327 Q:

OKAY. AND WHO DID YOU HAVE DO IT, DETECTIVE?

# 328 A:

THE ON-DUTY REGISTERED NURSE AT THE JAIL DISPENSARY AT PARKER CENTER.

# 329 Q:

IS THERE A JAIL LOCATED AT PARKER CENTER?

# 330 A:

YES.

# 331 Q:

YOU NEVER PLACED THE DEFENDANT IN THAT JAIL?

# 332 A:

NO, I DID NOT. WELL, I THINK I SHOULD QUALIFY THAT. NO, I DID NOT THAT DAY ON THE 13TH.

# 333 Q:

THE 13TH WOULD BE MONDAY; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 334 A:

THAT'S CORRECT, YES.

# 335 Q:

AND CAN YOU TELL US WHAT -- WHAT YOU SAW THE NURSE DO IN THE JAIL DISPENSARY, THAT IS, RELATIVE TO THE TAKING OF THE DEFENDANT'S BLOOD?

# 336 A:

THE NURSE FIRST PREPARED A FORM, WHICH WAS AN AUTHORIZATION FOR MR. SIMPSON'S SIGNATURE. HE SIGNED AND AGREED TO GIVE THE BLOOD SAMPLE. THE NURSE TOOK A SYRINGE FROM HIS EQUIPMENT AND DREW A SAMPLE OF BLOOD.

# 337 MR. DARDEN:

MAY I HAVE ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

# 338 THE COURT:

CERTAINLY.

# 339 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 340 MR. DARDEN:

MAY I CONFER WITH MR. SHAPIRO FOR ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR?

# 341 THE COURT:

CERTAINLY.

# 342 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

# 343 MR. SHAPIRO:

MAY WE APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?

# 344 THE COURT:

CERTAINLY.

# 345 (A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)

# 346 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

# 347 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MR. DARDEN, DO YOU WANT TO SEE IF YOU CAN WRAP IT UP?

# 348 MR. DARDEN:

CERTAINLY, YOUR HONOR. PEOPLE'S NEXT IN ORDER.

# 349 THE COURT:

123.

# 350 MR. DARDEN:

123. WE HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH, YOUR HONOR.

# 351 (PEO'S 123 FOR ID = PHOTOGRAPH)

# 352 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: DETECTIVE, SHOWING YOU THE PHOTOGRAPH MARKED PEOPLE'S 123 FOR IDENTIFICATION, DO YOU RECOGNIZE THAT PHOTOGRAPH?

# 353 A:

YES, SIR, I DO.

# 354 Q:

WAS THAT THE PHOTOGRAPH YOU CAUSED TO BE TAKEN ON JUNE 13TH?

# 355 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 356 Q:

THAT PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTS THE LEFT INDEX FINGER?

# 357 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 358 Q:

OF THE DEFENDANT?

# 359 A:

YES.

# 360 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 361 Q:

BY MR. DARDEN: I'M SORRY, MIDDLE FINGER?

# 362 A:

MIDDLE FINGER.

# 363 Q:

MIDDLE FINGER?

# 364 A:

MIDDLE FINGER, YES.

# 365 Q:

DON'T SHOW ME; JUST TELL ME. IS THAT HOW IT LOOKED THAT DAY?

# 366 A:

YES, IT IS.

# 367 MR. DARDEN:

THANK YOU, DETECTIVE. IS THIS A GOOD TIME?

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Philip Vannatter

HE WAS A VERY STRONG SUSPECT.

Vannatter's own characterization of Simpson at the time he chose to remove the handcuffs and not make an arrest — a concession that frames the decision as a deliberate strategic choice, not a lack of suspicion.

Philip Vannatter

OH, ABSOLUTELY I COULD HAVE, YES.

Vannatter flatly admits he had probable cause to arrest Simpson on June 13th. This undercuts any suggestion the evidence was thin; the decision not to arrest was investigative strategy, not necessity.

Philip Vannatter

GOING BACK TO THE ORIGINAL CRIME SCENE AT BUNDY, SEEING THE DISTINCT SINGLE SET OF SHOEPRINTS, BLOOD SHOEPRINTS LEADING AWAY WITH BLOOD DROPS ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE SHOEPRINTS AND THEN TRACKING THE BLOOD TRAIL BY VEHICLE TO ROCKINGHAM... IT WOULD APPEAR THAT HE HAD THE INJURY THAT WAS THAT WOULD HAVE CAUSED THOSE BLOOD DROPS ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE BLOODY FOOTPRINTS.

Vannatter explicitly ties the cut on Simpson's left middle finger to the blood trail evidence at Bundy — one of the prosecution's core arguments linking Simpson physically to the crime scene.

Philip Vannatter

HE SAID HE DIDN'T NEED TO. THE ONLY PARAMETERS HE WANTED WAS FOR ME TO TAPE-RECORD THE CONVERSATION.

Weitzman's decision to skip the interview and go to lunch — leaving his client alone with homicide detectives — was a significant strategic moment the prosecution is highlighting to show Simpson cooperated voluntarily.

Evidence (3)

People's 123

Photograph of the laceration on Simpson's left middle finger, taken June 13th at Parker Center after the bandage was removed

introduced and identified by Vannatter

Informal

Blood shoeprints at Bundy with drops on the left side, blood trail leading to Rockingham

discussed contextually to explain significance of finger wound

Informal

Blood sample drawn from Simpson by the nurse at Parker Center jail dispensary on June 13th, with signed authorization form

described by Vannatter

Notable Exchanges (3)

Christopher Darden•Philip Vannatter•Robert Shapiro

Darden tries to elicit Vannatter's full explanation of why he didn't arrest Simpson — invoking the 48-hour rule and media context. Shapiro successfully moves to strike the tail end as nonresponsive, and Ito instructs the jury to disregard. Darden then re-elicits the key admission: Vannatter had sufficient probable cause and 'absolutely' could have arrested Simpson.

strategic

Christopher Darden•Robert Shapiro•Lance A. Ito

Extended bench conference over hearsay objection to Weitzman's statements at Parker Center. Darden argues the statements aren't offered for truth but to explain subsequent action and state of mind. Once Darden previews that the answer will be Weitzman asking for a private room and declining to attend the interview, Shapiro withdraws the objection.

procedural

Christopher Darden•Philip Vannatter

Darden asks whether the photograph shows the left 'index finger,' Vannatter corrects him — 'middle finger' — and Darden tries to recover with 'Don't show me; just tell me,' a small awkward moment that lightens the mood briefly.

revealing

Light Moments (1)

Christopher Darden

After misidentifying the finger in the photograph as the 'index finger,' Darden corrects himself and says 'DON'T SHOW ME; JUST TELL ME' — an implicit acknowledgment that Vannatter may have been about to display the middle finger to the courtroom.

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Philip Vannatter

implicit through sustained objections and struck testimony

Shapiro's successful motion to strike Vannatter's expanded explanation of the 48-hour rule limits the jury's exposure to the detective's rationale for not arresting Simpson, leaving a potential inference that the delay was less principled than Vannatter claimed.

Objections

8 objections (3 sustained, 4 overruled)

Proceeding 5326 • 367 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103