Cross-examination of Mark Fuhrman (afternoon)

📄 Cross-examination of Mark Fuhrman (afternoon) — Wednesday, March 15, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\15\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-MARK-FUHR.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 38 of 167

◀ Resuming session Sidebar: attorney-client privilege ▶

Witness: Det. Mark Fuhrman
Examiner: F. Lee Bailey
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Wednesday, March 15, 1995 • Utterances: 425

F. Lee Bailey continued his methodical cross-examination of Detective Mark Fuhrman, pressing him on his failure to question Rosa Lopez (the Salinger maid) about the night of the murders, his curious claim that Kato Kaelin 'directed' him to search the south border of the Simpson property, and his increasingly implausible assertion that O.J. Simpson was only a 'remote' suspect despite Fuhrman finding a bloody glove on his property. Bailey also attacked Fuhrman's credibility by highlighting his near-total memory lapse about the prosecution's grand jury preparation sessions.

# 1

BY MR. BAILEY:

# 2 Q:

DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, YESTERDAY, WHEN YOU WERE QUIZZED ABOUT THE CONTENTS OF THE HOMICIDE KIT IN THE VEHICLE THAT YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS PICKED UP, ONE OF THE ITEMS THAT YOU MENTIONED THAT WAS CARRIED IN THESE KITS WAS PLASTIC BAGS?

# 3 A:

YES, SIR.

# 4 Q:

WERE THERE ANY OF ROUGHLY THIS TYPE OF COMMERCIAL ZIPLOC SANDWICH BAG SIZE AND TYPE OF PLASTIC IN THE HOMICIDE KIT (INDICATING)?

# 5 A:

NO, WE DON'T HAVE ANY ZIPLOC BAGS.

# 6 Q:

YOU DON'T?

# 7 A:

NO. WE HAVE A -- I'M SORRY.

# 8 Q:

TELL ME WHAT YOU DO HAVE.

# 9 A:

A JAIL BAG, WHAT YOU PUT A -- AN ARRESTEE'S PROPERTY IN. THEN IT'S HEAT SEALED WITH A HEAT SEAL THAT'S KEPT IN THE JAIL.

# 10 Q:

OKAY. AND I BELIEVE YOU SAID SOMETHING ABOUT DIFFERENT SIZE BAGS; IS THAT TRUE?

# 11 A:

WELL, THE JAIL BAGS ARE ONE SIZE THAT I KNOW IS IN THERE AND THEN YOU MIGHT HAVE VERY SMALL ONES USED FOR NARCOTICS.

# 12 Q:

OKAY.

# 13 THE COURT:

LET THE RECORD REFLECT WHAT MR. BAILEY HAS SHOWN TO THE WITNESS IS A SANDWICH SIZE ZIPLOC BAG.

# 14 MR. BAILEY:

ROUGHLY SIX BY SEVEN AND A HALF INCHES, YOUR HONOR.

# 15 THE COURT:

YES.

# 16 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: ALL RIGHT. IN OTHER WORDS, PLASTIC BAGS OF VARIOUS SIZES ARE AVAILABLE FOR THE COLLECTION OF EVIDENCE?

# 17 A:

TWO THAT COMES TO MY IMMEDIATE MEMORY, YES.

# 18 Q:

OKAY. AND YOU MENTIONED ALSO THAT RUBBER GLOVES ARE AVAILABLE?

# 19 A:

YES, SIR.

# 20 Q:

OKAY. NOW, ONCE AGAIN, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, HAVE YOU ATTEMPTED TO FIND OUT THE IDENTITIES OF THE PEOPLE YOU WERE UNABLE TO NAME WHO WERE IN THE GRAND JURY CASE PREPARATION EXERCISE?

# 21 A:

NO.

# 22 Q:

DOES THE NAME MELISSA BECKER MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU?

# 23 A:

NONE AT ALL.

# 24 Q:

DO YOU REMEMBER ANY LAW STUDENTS BEING PRESENT DURING THAT TIME, ANYONE IDENTIFIED TO YOU AS A LAW STUDENT?

# 25 A:

I DO NOT KNOW ANY OF THE PEOPLE IN THE ROOM.

# 26 Q:

SORRY. MELISSA DECKER.

# 27 A:

NO. I STILL DON'T.

# 28 Q:

AND YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER ANY OF THE PEOPLE IN THE ROOM WERE LAW STUDENTS?

# 29 A:

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEIR STATUS WAS, NO.

# 30 Q:

OKAY. IS THERE ANYONE IN THIS ROOM OTHER THAN THE LAWYERS SEATED AT COUNSEL TABLE WHO WERE PRESENT DURING THAT EXERCISE?

# 31 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE. MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.

# 32 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 33 MS. CLARK:

ASSUMES --

# 34 THE COURT:

I AM SORRY. I STAND CORRECTED. SUSTAINED. IT DOES. REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

# 35 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: YES. DO YOU SEE ANYONE IN THE COURTROOM WHO WAS PRESENT THAT DAY OTHER THAN THESE LAWYERS?

# 36 MS. CLARK:

SAME OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 37 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION OVER IN THIS AREA, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.

# 38 MS. CLARK:

YOUR HONOR, MAY I HAVE -- SAME OBJECTION. ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE. MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY. ASSUMES THAT ALL OF US WERE PRESENT.

# 39 THE COURT:

NO. THAT'S NOT MY UNDERSTANDING OF THE QUESTION. OTHER THAN THESE LAWYERS.

# 40 MS. CLARK:

OTHER THAN -- AND ASSUMES THESE LAWYERS WERE PRESENT.

# 41 THE COURT:

OTHER THAN THESE LAWYERS HERE IN THE COURTROOM IS THE WAY -- WHY DON'T YOU REPHRASE THE QUESTION SO IT'S CRYSTAL CLEAR.

# 42 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: YOU TOLD US MR. DARDEN AND MISS LEWIS WERE PRESENT?

# 43 A:

YES.

# 44 Q:

MR. CLARKE WAS NOT -- MISS CLARK WAS NOT I TAKE IT?

# 45 A:

SHE WAS NOT.

# 46 Q:

ALL RIGHT. DO YOU SEE ANYONE OTHER THAN THE LAWYERS, ONE, TWO, WHITE AND ONE OTHER THAT YOU NAMED, ASSISTANT DISTRICT ATTORNEYS IN THIS COURTROOM WHO WAS PRESENT DURING THAT SESSION?

# 47 A:

I DON'T BELIEVE SO.

# 48 Q:

LOOKING IN THE AUDIENCE, YOU DON'T RECOGNIZE ANYONE WHO WAS PRESENT?

# 49 A:

NO.

# 50 Q:

OKAY. YOU MENTIONED MR. RUNYON. WHAT DOES HE DO?

# 51 A:

I BELIEVE I SEEM -- ASSISTING MR. DARDEN.

# 52 Q:

HAVE YOU HAD ANY CONTACTS WITH OR INTERVIEWS WITH, SINCE THE FIRST OF JANUARY, ANY PSYCHOLOGISTS?

# 53 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. RELEVANCE. PRIVILEGE.

# 54 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 55 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: IN CONNECTION WITH THE TESTIMONY.

# 56 A:

NO.

# 57 Q:

NONE AT ALL?

# 58 A:

NO.

# 59 Q:

HAVE YOU RECEIVED ANY COUNSELING FROM ANYONE OTHER THAN LAWYERS WITH RESPECT TO YOUR TESTIMONY?

# 60 A:

NO.

# 61

Q: OKAY. (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

# 62 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: DOES THE NAME, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, DON VINCENT MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU?

# 63 A:

DON VINCENT I BELIEVE IS A CITY ATTORNEY.

# 64 Q:

DO YOU KNOW ANY OTHER DON VINCENT OR KNOW OF?

# 65 A:

NO, SIR.

# 66 Q:

HOW ABOUT MARK GOLDSTEIN? DOES THAT NAME MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU?

# 67 A:

THE NAME GOLDSTEIN DOES NOT, NO.

# 68 Q:

HAVE YOU HAD ANY CONTACT WITH ANYONE BY EITHER OF THOSE NAMES IN CONNECTION WITH THIS CASE SINCE THE FIRST OF THE YEAR?

# 69 A:

NOT TO MY KNOWLEDGE, NO.

# 70 Q:

OKAY. THANK YOU. NOW, IN YOUR DIRECT TESTIMONY, YOU EXPLAINED TO US THAT AT THE REQUEST OF DETECTIVE VANNATTER I BELIEVE IT WAS, YOU AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WENT BACK TO BUNDY TO REVIEW THE LEFT-HAND GLOVE THAT YOU HAD SEEN THERE?

# 71 A:

YES, SIR.

# 72 Q:

AND THE PURPOSE OF THAT WAS FOR YOU TOGETHER TO MAKE A JUDGMENT OF SOME SORTS AS TO THE PROBABILITY THAT THE TWO GLOVES WERE RELATED, THE RIGHT HAND AT ROCKINGHAM, THE LEFT HAND AT BUNDY?

# 73 A:

YES, AND TO SEE IF THEY WERE SIMILAR.

# 74 Q:

OKAY. AND IN CONNECTION WITH THAT EFFORT, I BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT YOU TOOK A PENCIL AND PICKED UP -- OR PEN AND PICKED UP THE GLOVE TO SEE WHAT THE LINING LOOKED LIKE?

# 75 A:

YES. LIFTED IT UP, YES.

# 76 Q:

CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO ME IN A LITTLE MORE DETAIL -- AND YOU CAN SHOW US IF YOU WISH WITH THIS GLOVE -- HOW YOU PICKED IT UP; IN OTHER WORDS, WHERE THE PENCIL WAS PUT?

# 77 A:

I DIDN'T PICK IT UP, SIR.

# 78 Q:

WELL, DID YOU LIFT IT AT ALL OR JUST LIFT ONE SIDE?

# 79 A:

JUST LIFTED IT, YES.

# 80 Q:

OKAY. AND HOW FAR DID YOU LIFT IT?

# 81 A:

COUPLE INCHES.

# 82 Q:

AND DID YOU SHINE YOUR LITTLE LIGHT ON IT OR WAS IT LIGHT ENOUGH THAT YOU DIDN'T NEED TO BY THE TIME YOU GOT BACK TO BUNDY?

# 83 A:

I WAS LOOKING PREDOMINATELY IF IT WAS A RIGHT OR LEFT AND THE LINING, THE COLOR OF THE LEATHER.

# 84 Q:

AND YOU FOUND THAT THEY WERE SIMILAR?

# 85 A:

YES.

# 86 Q:

AND THEN YOU WENT BACK AND MADE YOUR REPORT?

# 87 A:

YES.

# 88 Q:

NOW, YOU REMAINED AT ROCKINGHAM FOR SOME TIME AFTER THAT; DID YOU NOT?

# 89 A:

YES, SIR.

# 90 Q:

DO YOU KNOW A WITNESS IN THIS CASE NAMED RON SHIPP?

# 91 A:

YES.

# 92 Q:

DID HE TALK TO YOU ON THE PHONE THAT MORNING?

# 93 A:

HE DID.

# 94 Q:

OKAY. AND PRIOR TO TALKING TO RON SHIPP, DID YOU MAKE AN EFFORT TO FIND OUT WHETHER ANYONE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD HAD HEARD ANYTHING UNUSUAL THAT NIGHT?

# 95 A:

NO.

# 96 Q:

DID YOU GO QUESTION ANYONE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD?

# 97 A:

NO.

# 98 Q:

DID YOU GO TO ANY HOME IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD?

# 99 A:

YES.

# 100 Q:

WHOSE HOME?

# 101 A:

THE HOUSE TO THE NORTH THAT I KNOW NOW IS THE SALINGER RESIDENCE.

# 102 Q:

AND DID YOU ENCOUNTER SOMEONE THERE THAT YOU WERE ABLE TO TALK TO?

# 103 A:

BRIEFLY, YES.

# 104 Q:

AND WAS THAT ROSA LOPEZ?

# 105 A:

I HAVE NO IDEA.

# 106 Q:

YOU DIDN'T GET HER NAME?

# 107 A:

NO.

# 108 Q:

YOU DIDN'T WRITE IT DOWN?

# 109 A:

NO.

# 110 Q:

DID YOU ASK HER IF SHE HEARD ANYTHING UNUSUAL? JUST YES OR NO.

# 111 A:

NO.

# 112 Q:

WHAT DID YOU ASK HER, IF YOU REMEMBER?

# 113 A:

IF I COULD LOOK DOWN THE NORTH BORDER OF THE RESIDENCE, SOMETHING HAPPENED NEXT DOOR AND I JUST WANTED TO LOOK AND SEE IF THERE WAS ANYTHING ON THEIR SIDE OF THE PROPERTY. THEY SAID NO PROBLEM.

# 114 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, DID YOU MAKE ANY INQUIRY AS TO WHERE HER BEDROOM WAS, IF SHE HAD ONE, WITH RESPECT TO THE SIMPSON HOUSE?

# 115 A:

ABSOLUTELY NONE, SIR.

# 116 Q:

DID YOU MAKE ANY INQUIRY AS TO WHETHER OR NOT SHE HAD SEEN ANYTHING THAT NIGHT OVER AT THE SIMPSON HOUSE?

# 117 A:

NO, I DIDN'T.

# 118 Q:

DID YOU INQUIRE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT SHE HAD HEARD ANYTHING THAT NIGHT AT THE SIMPSON HOUSE?

# 119 A:

NO.

# 120 Q:

BY THIS TIME IN YOUR INVESTIGATION, HAVING IN MIND THE BLOOD THAT YOU DISCOVERED ON THE BRONCO AND THE GLOVE THAT YOU DISCOVERED IN THE ALLEYWAY, HAD MR. SIMPSON BECOME A SUSPECT IN YOUR MIND AS A DETECTIVE?

# 121 A:

I THINK THERE WAS A REMOTE POSSIBILITY, BUT NOTHING WAS SOLID, NO.

# 122 Q:

A REMOTE POSSIBILITY?

# 123 A:

YES.

# 124 Q:

OKAY. WELL, WERE YOU PRESENT WHEN HE ARRIVED FROM CHICAGO AND THEY SLAPPED HANDCUFFS ON HIM?

# 125 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR.

# 126 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 127 DET. MARK FUHRMAN:

YES.

# 128 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: WELL, WHEN YOU SLAP HANDCUFFS ON SOMEONE, YOU TAKE THEM INTO CUSTODY, DON'T YOU?

# 129 A:

NOT ALWAYS, NO.

# 130 Q:

OH, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO HANDCUFF A CITIZEN WITHOUT A CRIMINAL CHARGE?

# 131 A:

THERE ARE INSTANCES YOU COULD, YES.

# 132 Q:

HAVE YOU DONE THAT IN THE PAST, HANDCUFFED PEOPLE AGAINST WHOM THERE WAS NO CHARGE?

# 133 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THIS IS IRRELEVANT, BEYOND THE SCOPE.

# 134 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 135 DET. MARK FUHRMAN:

THERE'S TIMES WHEN PEOPLE PICK PEOPLE OUT AS SUSPECTS AND YOU LATER IDENTIFY THAT THEY WERE NOT THE SUSPECT AND YOU WOULD RELEASE THEM.

# 136 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: BUT THAT WASN'T THE CASE HERE, WAS IT?

# 137 A:

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE CASE -- AS FAR AS HE WAS HANDCUFFED, I DID NOT ORDER THAT.

# 138 Q:

WITHOUT GOING INTO THE DETAILS, HAD YOU HAD CONVERSATION WITH THE OTHER DETECTIVES AS TO WHETHER OR NOT ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON WAS A SUSPECT IN THE DOUBLE HOMICIDE ON BUNDY?

# 139 A:

NO.

# 140 Q:

THAT HAD NOT EVER BEEN DISCUSSED PRIOR TO YOUR GOING TO THE HOUSE NEXT DOOR; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 141 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 142 Q:

HAD IT EVER PASSED YOUR MIND, HOWEVER REMOTELY, THAT THAT MIGHT BE THE CASE?

# 143 A:

NOT KNOWING HIS WHEREABOUTS THE NIGHT BEFORE, I FELT IT WAS EXTREMELY REMOTE.

# 144 Q:

NOT KNOWING HIS WHEREABOUTS.

# 145 A:

I KNEW HE WAS IN CHICAGO.

# 146 Q:

WELL, YOU ALSO KNEW HE DIDN'T LEAVE UNTIL 11:00, RIGHT?

# 147 A:

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT, NO.

# 148 Q:

YOU DIDN'T THINK THE LIMOUSINE WAS THERE TO PICK UP ANYONE ELSE AT 11:00 O'CLOCK, DID YOU?

# 149 A:

I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE LIMOUSINE OTHER THAN WHAT KATO INITIALLY TOLD ME.

# 150 Q:

HOW MUCH MORE DO YOU NEED TO KNOW? HE SAW A LIMOUSINE AT 11:00 O'CLOCK.

# 151 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.

# 152 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 153 MR. BAILEY:

WITHDRAW THE QUESTION.

# 154 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: DID THAT SEEM SIGNIFICANT TO YOU WITH RESPECT TO THE WHEREABOUTS OF THE RATHER FAMOUS OWNER OF THE HOUSE THAT THERE WAS A LIMOUSINE THERE AT 11:00 O'CLOCK?

# 155 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY. ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

# 156 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 157 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: DID KATO KAELIN TELL YOU THAT HE SAW A LIMOUSINE THERE AT 11:00 O'CLOCK WHEN HE WENT OUTSIDE AFTER HE HEARD THE NOISE?

# 158 A:

YES.

# 159 Q:

OKAY. NOW, MY QUESTION IS, DID THAT IN ANY WAY RELATE TO THE POSSIBLE PRESENCE OR ABSENCE OF MR. SIMPSON AT ABOUT THAT TIME AT HIS HOME?

# 160 A:

I HAD NO IDEA.

# 161 Q:

DID YOU THINK MAYBE THE LIMOUSINE WAS BRINGING HIM BACK FROM SOMEWHERE?

# 162 A:

I DID NOT GIVE IT ANY THOUGHT.

# 163 Q:

BUT YOU KNEW HE HAD GONE TO CHICAGO, DIDN'T YOU?

# 164 A:

YES. I HAD BEEN TOLD THAT BY THEN.

# 165 Q:

YOU KNEW THAT DETECTIVE PHILLIPS TALKED TO HIM IN CHICAGO, DIDN'T YOU?

# 166 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. VAGUE AS TO TIME. WHEN.

# 167 DET. MARK FUHRMAN:

YES.

# 168 MR. BAILEY:

THE NEXT MORNING.

# 169 THE COURT:

WELL, I TAKE IT WE'RE STILL IN THE CONTEXT OF WHEN DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WENT NEXT DOOR TO THE SALINGER'S.

# 170 MR. BAILEY:

I'M TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT HE THEN KNEW.

# 171 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 172 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: OKAY. YOU KNEW THAT HE REACHED HIM IN CHICAGO BY TELEPHONE, DIDN'T YOU?

# 173 A:

YES.

# 174 Q:

OKAY. AND DETECTIVE PHILLIPS WAS SATISFIED THAT THE RECIPIENT OF THE CALL WAS IN FACT IN CHICAGO, CORRECT?

# 175 A:

YES.

# 176 Q:

ALL RIGHT. SO AT SOME POINT, HE HAD TRAVELED TO CHICAGO. DID THAT OCCUR TO YOU?

# 177 A:

OF COURSE.

# 178 Q:

ALL RIGHT. DID A QUESTION ARISE IN YOUR MIND AS TO WHEN HE MIGHT HAVE TRAVELED TO CHICAGO?

# 179 A:

IT DID NOT.

# 180 Q:

WELL, DID IT OCCUR TO YOU IF HE HAD TRAVELED TO CHICAGO BEFORE THE ICE CREAM WAS PURCHASED, AT WHICH POINT THE VICTIM NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON WAS VERY MUCH ALIVE, THAT HE WOULD BE ELIMINATED AS A SUSPECT INSOFAR AS DIRECT PARTICIPATION IN THE HOMICIDE WAS CONCERNED?

# 181 A:

I NEVER GAVE ANY OF THAT --

# 182 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. COMPOUND.

# 183 THE COURT:

I'M SORRY. MISS CLARK?

# 184 MS. CLARK:

COMPOUND, YOUR HONOR, COMPLEX.

# 185 THE COURT:

CALLS FOR A CONCLUSION AS WELL. SUSTAINED.

# 186 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: WERE YOU, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, DURING THE COURSE OF YOUR STAY FROM 2:10 A.M. UNTIL YOU TALKED TO SHIPP LET'S SAY AROUND 10:00 -- IS THAT CORRECT; 10:00 O'CLOCK?

# 187 A:

I DON'T RECALL WHAT TIME HE CALLED.

# 188 Q:

MID MORNING?

# 189 A:

I BELIEVE SO.

# 190 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WERE YOU ENGAGED IN YOUR PROFESSION AS A DETECTIVE OF THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT?

# 191 A:

AT THE TIME I TALKED TO MR. SHIPP?

# 192 Q:

NO, SIR. FROM 2:10 A.M. WHEN YOU ARRIVED ON THE SCENE UNTIL AT LEAST MID MORNING ON THE 13TH, WERE YOU ENGAGED IN YOUR PROFESSION AS A POLICE OFFICER?

# 193 A:

YES, SIR.

# 194 Q:

WERE YOU BEING PAID TO CARRY OUT THE FUNCTION OF A DETECTIVE DURING THAT PERIOD?

# 195 A:

YES.

# 196 Q:

WERE YOU GIVING THAT YOUR BEST EFFORT DURING THAT PERIOD?

# 197 A:

I WAS BEING DIRECTED. YES.

# 198 Q:

YOU WERE BEING DIRECTED?

# 199 A:

YES.

# 200 Q:

YOU WEREN'T DIRECTED TO THE BRONCO, WERE YOU?

# 201 A:

NO.

# 202 Q:

YOU WEREN'T DIRECTED TO THE SOUTH BORDER OF THE SIMPSON PROPERTY, WERE YOU?

# 203 A:

YES.

# 204 Q:

BY WHOM?

# 205 A:

MR. KAELIN.

# 206 Q:

MR. KAELIN ORDERED YOU TO GO OUT AND LOOK FOR WHERE THE NOISE CAME FROM, DETECTIVE?

# 207 A:

NO. HE DIRECTED ME BY HIS STATEMENT.

# 208 Q:

DOES HE HAVE THE POWER TO DIRECT ANY DETECTIVE IN THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

# 209 A:

DIRECTION IN THE LOGICAL THING TO DO WOULD BE ONE AND THE SAME.

# 210 Q:

THEY'RE ONE AND THE SAME?

# 211 A:

YES.

# 212 Q:

DO YOU WANT TO LEAVE IT THAT KATO KAELIN DIRECTED YOU TO GO OUT AND LOOK FOR THE NOISE OR ITS SOURCE?

# 213 A:

BY HIS STATEMENT, ABSOLUTELY.

KEY QUOTE

# 214 Q:

OKAY. YOU HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO DO THAT WITHOUT TELLING ANYBODY, CORRECT?

# 215 A:

I HAD A CHOICE. THAT WAS A LOGICAL THING TO DO.

# 216 Q:

ALL RIGHT. LET'S CONTINUE. WHEN YOU LEARNED THAT MR. SIMPSON WAS IN CHICAGO, DID IT OCCUR TO YOU THAT THE PRESENCE OF THE LIMOUSINE MIGHT BE OF SOME SIGNIFICANCE?

# 217 A:

I DID NOT GIVE THE LIMOUSINE ANY THOUGHT AFTER THAT.

# 218 Q:

DID YOU GIVE ANY THOUGHT TO THE POSSIBILITY THAT MR. SIMPSON WAS OR WAS NOT IN BRENTWOOD BETWEEN 9:00 AND MIDNIGHT?

# 219 A:

NO.

# 220 Q:

THAT NEVER CROSSED YOUR MIND?

# 221 A:

WELL, IT WAS OUT OF MY REALM OF RESPONSIBILITY AT THAT TIME.

# 222 Q:

WELL, YOU CLAIM THAT YOU FOUND AN INSTRUMENTALITY OF MURDER THAT TURNS OUT TO BE ON HIS PROPERTY. DID THAT GIVE YOU ANY CAUSE TO SUSPECT MR. SIMPSON?

# 223 A:

KNOWING HE WAS IN CHICAGO, I THINK IT WOULD BE QUITE THE OPPOSITE.

KEY QUOTE

# 224 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU ATTACH SOME SIGNIFICANCE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, TO THE BRONCO INITIALLY AGAINST THE POSSIBILITY THAT PEOPLE INSIDE WOULD BE INJURED, CORRECT?

# 225 A:

YES.

# 226 Q:

ALL RIGHT. YOU HAD ASCERTAINED BY QUESTIONING KATO KAELIN THAT ONLY O.J. SIMPSON DROVE THE BRONCO, CORRECT?

# 227 A:

YES.

# 228 Q:

AND YOU HAD NOTICED A SHOVEL AND SOME PLASTIC WHICH YOU DID NOT THEN UNDERSTAND IN THE BACK OF THE BRONCO, CORRECT?

# 229 A:

YES, SIR.

# 230 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND YOU HAVE BEFORE CITED THIS SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES AS BEING RELEVANT TO THE PRESSING NEED TO GO OVER THE FENCE ONTO THE PROPERTY, CORRECT?

# 231 A:

YES, SIR.

# 232 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WERE THEY ALSO RELEVANT TO THE POSSIBILITY THAT MR. SIMPSON SHOULD BE LOOKED AT AS A SUSPECT ON THE 13TH OF JUNE?

# 233 A:

NOT AT THE TIME AS YOU ARE DESCRIBING THESE, NO.

# 234 Q:

OKAY. WHEN YOU LEARNED THAT HE WAS THE ONLY DRIVER OF THE SUSPECT -- OF THE BRONCO ACCORDING TO MR. KAELIN, WERE YOU INTERESTED TO KNOW WHETHER THE BRONCO MIGHT HAVE LEFT THE PREMISES THAT NIGHT DURING THE PERIOD DURING WHICH THE MURDER MAY HAVE OCCURRED?

# 235 A:

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN HELPFUL, YES.

# 236 Q:

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN HELPFUL. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHEN YOU SPOKE TO MISS LOPEZ TO GET PERMISSION TO GO BACK ALONG THE BORDERLINE AND WHEREVER IT WAS THAT YOU WANTED TO GO ON THE SALINGER'S PROPERTY, DID YOU ASK HER ANY QUESTIONS WHATSOEVER ABOUT THE BRONCO?

# 237 A:

NO.

# 238 Q:

OKAY. OR ANY QUESTIONS WHATSOEVER ABOUT THE DOINGS AT THE SIMPSON PLACE THE NIGHT BEFORE?

# 239 A:

NO.

# 240 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU THEN GO AND MAKE AN INQUIRY OR INVESTIGATION OF THE TERRAIN TO THE SOUTH SIDE OF THE SALINGER PROPERTY ALONG THE FENCE?

# 241 A:

YES. YES, SIR.

# 242 Q:

BY THE WAY, DID YOU EVER IDENTIFY YOURSELF TO ROSA LOPEZ?

# 243 A:

YES, SIR.

# 244 Q:

AS DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

# 245 A:

YES.

# 246 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU TAKE ANY NOTES WHEN YOU TALKED TO HER?

# 247 A:

NO.

# 248 Q:

OR MAKE ANY LATER ON OF THE CONVERSATION?

# 249 A:

NO.

# 250 Q:

AND DID YOU EVER SAY TO HER THAT YOU WOULD HAVE SOME OTHER OFFICERS GET IN TOUCH WITH HER?

# 251 A:

NO.

# 252 Q:

ALL RIGHT. SO AS FAR AS YOU WERE CONCERNED, THERE WAS NO POINT IN YOU OR ANYONE ELSE QUESTIONING ROSA LOPEZ?

# 253 A:

THERE WAS NOTHING SHE INDICATED THAT SHOULD BE INTERVIEWED FOR, NO.

KEY QUOTE

# 254 Q:

WELL, YOU NEVER ASKED HER A QUESTION. HOW COULD SHE INDICATE ANYTHING?

KEY QUOTE

# 255 A:

AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED.

# 256 Q:

DO YOU DETERMINE WITHOUT ASKING QUESTIONS WHETHER WITNESSES HAVE INFORMATION?

# 257 A:

NO, SIR. YOU MISSTATED I -- I WOULDN'T HAVE INTERVIEWED HER.

# 258 Q:

YOU WOULD NOT HAVE INTERVIEWED HER?

# 259 A:

NO.

# 260 Q:

AS THE DETECTIVE, YOU DON'T INTERVIEW WITNESSES?

# 261 A:

IT WAS NO LONGER MY CASE. DETECTIVE LANGE AND VANNATTER WILL DICTATE WHAT INTERVIEWS AND WHEN.

# 262 Q:

DID YOU EVER CONSULT WITH THEM AND SAY, "I WOULD LIKE THIS TIME TO ASK YOUR DIRECTION. SHOULD I TALK WITH THIS LADY NEXT DOOR"?

# 263 A:

NO. DETECTIVE LANGE WAS ON THE BUNDY CRIME SCENE AND DETECTIVE VANNATTER WAS WRITING A SEARCH WARRANT.

# 264 Q:

YOU COULDN'T INTERRUPT HIM WRITING A SEARCH WARRANT TO SEE IF IT WAS OKAY TO TALK TO THE NEXT-DOOR NEIGHBOR'S MAID?

# 265 A:

I DIDN'T THINK IT IMPORTANT.

# 266 Q:

DIDN'T THINK IT IMPORTANT. DID YOU CAUSE HER TO ASK HER GARDENER SOME QUESTIONS?

# 267 A:

EXCUSE ME?

# 268 Q:

DID YOU CAUSE ROSA LOPEZ TO ASK HER GARDENER SOME QUESTIONS?

# 269 A:

NOT AT ALL.

# 270 Q:

WERE YOU LOOKING FOR POSSIBLE SHARP OBJECTS WHEN YOU WERE ON THE SALINGER PROPERTY?

# 271 A:

I WAS LOOKING FOR ANYTHING THAT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS UNUSUAL OR SOMETHING THAT WAS OBVIOUS.

# 272 Q:

WAS ONE OF THE UNUSUAL THINGS YOU WERE LOOKING FOR, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, A SHARP OBJECT?

# 273 A:

I DIDN'T KNOW AT THAT TIME THE CAUSE OF DEATH AT BUNDY, SO I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR PRECISELY.

# 274 Q:

CAN YOU ANSWER THE QUESTION? WERE YOU LOOKING OR WERE YOU NOT LOOKING FOR A SHARP OBJECT?

# 275 A:

I CAN'T ANSWER THAT AS A YES OR NO, SIR.

# 276 Q:

SO YOU DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAD SEEN A KNIFE, WHETHER YOU WOULD HAVE PICKED IT UP OR PHOTOGRAPHED IT OR EVEN NOTED IT?

# 277 A:

I WASN'T SPECIFICALLY LOOKING FOR A KNIFE. IF I WOULD HAVE FOUND ONE, I WOULD HAVE SEIZED IT, YES, OR KEPT IT THERE FOR A PHOTOGRAPHER AND A CRIMINALIST TO RECOVER, YES.

# 278 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WHAT ELSE WERE YOU LOOKING FOR? IF IT WASN'T KNIVES, WHAT WERE YOU HOPING TO FIND?

# 279 A:

I DON'T KNOW, SIR. ANYTHING THAT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS OUT OF PLACE OR POSSIBLE EVIDENCE, I COULD GO BACK TO THE SALINGER RESIDENCE AND ASK IF IT WAS THEIRS.

# 280 Q:

REGARDING CLOTHING?

# 281 A:

ANYTHING OF THAT NATURE, YES.

# 282 Q:

HAD YOU SEEN ENOUGH OF THE CRIME SCENE TO ASSUME WHOEVER HAD PERPETRATED THE MURDERS PROBABLY HAD BLOOD ON THEM AS THE GLOVES DID?

# 283 A:

YES.

# 284 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WERE YOU INTERESTED IN FINDING WHETHER OR NOT THERE WAS ANY BLOODY CLOTHING NEARBY THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE?

# 285 A:

I DON'T THINK I WAS SPECIFICALLY LOOKING FOR JUST THAT. BUT AS I SAID.

# 286 Q:

DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WHEN I ASK YOU WERE YOU LOOKING FOR SOMETHING, THAT DOES NOT MEAN TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHER ITEMS. I SIMPLY WANT TO KNOW IF THAT WAS ON THE LIST OF THINGS THAT MIGHT HAVE INTERESTED YOU IF YOU HAD SEEN IT.

# 287 A:

THERE WAS NO LIST.

# 288 Q:

THERE WAS NO LIST.

# 289 A:

NO.

# 290 Q:

OKAY. DO YOU KNOW HOW YOU WERE GOING TO DECIDE WHETHER SOMETHING WAS SIGNIFICANT IF IT WALKED UP AND HIT YOU IN THE FACE?

# 291 A:

WELL, IF IT DIDN'T BELONG IN THE SALINGER RESIDENCE AND IT CAME FROM THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE, IT COULD BE POSSIBLY CONSTRUED AS SOMETHING INVOLVED WITH -- ANYTHING TO DO WITH BUNDY OR ROCKINGHAM, AND I WOULD SIMPLY ASK THE SALINGER'S.

# 292 Q:

MY QUESTION TO YOU WAS SIMPLY, INCLUDED AMONG THOSE KINDS OF ITEMS, WOULD BLOODY CLOTHES HAVE BEEN AN ITEM?

# 293 A:

YES.

# 294 Q:

ALL RIGHT. DID YOU FIND ANY?

# 295 A:

NO.

# 296 Q:

DID YOU FIND ANY SHARP INSTRUMENTS?

# 297 A:

NO, SIR.

# 298 Q:

WAS THE GARDENER WORKING THAT MONDAY MORNING?

# 299 A:

I SAW A GARDENER SOMETIME THAT MORNING, BUT I'M NOT SURE IF IT WAS IN FRONT OF SALINGER'S RESIDENCE OR ON THE STREET.

# 300 Q:

YOU NEVER SAW THE SALINGER'S THERE, DID YOU?

# 301 A:

I DON'T -- NO, I DON'T BELIEVE SO.

# 302 Q:

THE ONLY PERSON YOU SPOKE TO AT THE FRONT DOOR WAS RATHER SHORT, HISPANIC, UPPER MIDDLE-AGED, CORRECT?

# 303 A:

NO, BECAUSE I BELIEVE THERE WAS A SECURITY DOOR WITH SOME TYPE OF A MESH WHERE I CAN'T SEE IN, AND THAT PERSON OPENED THE INTERIOR DOOR AND SPOKE THROUGH THAT.

# 304 Q:

IF THE PERSON WHO SPOKE TO YOU THAT MORNING PRESENTED THEMSELVES IN THIS COURTROOM NOW AND DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING, WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO RECOGNIZE THEM?

# 305 A:

NO.

# 306 Q:

WAS THE ACCENT ACCOMPANYING THE VOICE WHICH HAD NO IMAGE AT THAT POINT SPANISH OR HISPANIC?

# 307 A:

I DON'T RECALL THAT THERE WAS A HEAVY ACCENT, NO.

# 308 Q:

DO YOU RECALL ANY ACCENT THAT WOULD TEND TO IDENTIFY THE SPEAKER AS SOMEONE BORN IN ANOTHER COUNTRY?

# 309 A:

IT'S A POSSIBILITY, BUT I DON'T RECALL IT.

# 310 Q:

OKAY. AND WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME YOU EVER SPOKE TO ANYBODY ABOUT THIS ENCOUNTER WITH THE PERSON AT THE SALINGER'S?

# 311 A:

I BELIEVE WHEN ROSA LOPEZ CAME FORWARD AS A WITNESS.

# 312 Q:

WELL, YOU MEAN WHEN SHE WAS FIRST LISTED BY THE DEFENSE A LONG TIME AGO OR RECENTLY?

# 313 A:

I'M NOT SURE ON THAT, SIR. I DON'T KNOW WHEN SHE WAS LISTED AND I DON'T KNOW WHEN SHE TESTIFIED EXACTLY. SO I WOULD PROBABLY SAY SOMETIME IN BETWEEN THERE.

# 314 Q:

DID YOU EVER LEARN AS A RESULT OF ANY HEARINGS BEFORE THIS COURT, WITHOUT GOING INTO WHAT WAS SAID, THAT IT WAS ALLEGED THAT YOU HAD TALKED WITH MISS LOPEZ THE MORNING OF THE INVESTIGATION, THE FIRST MORNING?

# 315 A:

YES, I HEARD THAT.

# 316 Q:

AND DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN YOU FIRST LEARNED THAT?

# 317 A:

NO.

# 318 Q:

HAVE YOU EVER MADE ANY EFFORT SINCE THAT TIME TO GET A LOOK AT MISS LOPEZ TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT OR LISTEN TO MISS LOPEZ TO SEE WHETHER OR NOT YOU COULD RECOGNIZE THAT PERSON AS THE ONE YOU MAY HAVE TALKED TO ON THE MORNING OF THE 13TH?

# 319 A:

YES. I SAW HER ON THE NEWS.

# 320 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND DID YOU LISTEN TO HER?

# 321 A:

YES.

# 322 Q:

DID THAT HELP YOU IN ANY WAY AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THIS IS THE PERSON YOU QUESTIONED ON THE MORNING OF THE 13TH?

# 323 A:

WELL, SHE WAS SPEAKING SPANISH. SO NO.

# 324 Q:

YOU DID NOT HEAR HER SPEAK ENGLISH?

# 325 A:

NO, SIR.

# 326 Q:

DID NOT HEAR HER HERE ON THE WITNESS STAND TESTIFYING?

# 327 A:

NO. I SAW A CLIP ON THE NEWS I BELIEVE IT WAS OF HER TESTIMONY.

# 328 Q:

OKAY. ALL RIGHT. AND TO THIS DAY -- BY THE WAY, DO YOU KNOW WHAT IF ANY PORTION OF THE NEIGHBORHOOD AROUND THE SIMPSON HOME WAS SEARCHED FOR THESE ITEMS OF EVIDENCE THAT YOU AND I HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING SUCH AS WEAPONS AND CLOTHING?

# 329 A:

NO, SIR.

# 330 Q:

YOU NEVER PARTICIPATED IN, GAVE ANY DIRECTION TO OTHER OFFICERS ABOUT OR OTHERWISE INVOLVED YOURSELF IN A SEARCH FOR ITEMS OF EVIDENCE OF THIS SORT?

# 331 A:

I WAS THERE DURING THE SEARCH WARRANT AND I ASSISTED IN THE CLOSET OF MR. SIMPSON'S BEDROOM AND SOME OF THE EXTERIOR PORTIONS, BUT THAT'S IT.

# 332 Q:

WHO WAS THE FIRST PERSON, IF YOU KNOW, BY THE WAY EVER TO GO UP TO MR. SIMPSON'S BEDROOM AFTER YOU ENTERED THE PREMISES?

# 333 A:

I DON'T KNOW, SIR.

# 334 Q:

WHAT TIME DID YOU GO THERE FIRST?

# 335 A:

INSIDE THE RESIDENCE?

# 336 Q:

YES.

# 337 A:

WITH MR. KAELIN.

# 338 Q:

HOW GREAT AN AREA, IF YOU KNOW, AROUND BUNDY WAS SEARCHED FOR BLOODY CLOTHING, OTHER ACCOUTREMENTS MIGHT HAVE BEEN WORN OR USED BY THE MURDERER INCLUDING A WEAPON?

# 339 A:

I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF THAT, SIR.

# 340 Q:

DIDN'T OFFICER RISKE TELL YOU WHERE HE HAD CAUSED PEOPLE TO LOOK FOR ITEMS OF THAT SORT?

# 341 A:

I DON'T RECALL THAT, NO.

# 342 Q:

ALL RIGHT. DID YOU CONTINUE WORKING ON THIS CASE AFTER JUNE 13TH?

# 343 A:

I BELIEVE I WAS ASKED TO DO A FEW THINGS, YES.

# 344 Q:

DID YOU KNOW THAT DETECTIVE VANNATTER SAID ON JUNE 6TH IN HIS SWORN TESTIMONY THAT YOU WERE STILL VERY MUCH A PART OF THE CASE AS A DETECTIVE?

# 345 A:

OH, I THINK THAT WOULD INCLUDE THE TIME THAT THEY ASKED US TO DO CERTAIN THINGS, YES.

# 346 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND WHEN DID YOU LAST DO ANY WORK ON THIS CASE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, OTHER THAN TO PREPARE YOURSELF AS A WITNESS?

# 347 A:

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN LAST YEAR, SIR. MAYBE --

# 348 Q:

I UNDERSTAND. I UNDERSTAND.

# 349 A:

MAYBE A MONTH, MONTH AFTER THE CRIME.

# 350 Q:

YOU THINK YOU MAY HAVE CONTINUED THROUGH JULY TO WORK ON THE CASE?

# 351 A:

YES. THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN SOME THINGS I DID, YES.

# 352 Q:

AND SOME PART OF AUGUST, YOU MAY HAVE WORKED ON THE CASE?

# 353 A:

I'M NOT SURE, SIR.

# 354 Q:

ALL RIGHT. WELL, ASSUMING THAT JURY SELECTION OR PROCEEDINGS POINTED TOWARDS JURY SELECTION BEGAN SEPTEMBER 19TH OF 1994, DID YOU DO ANY WORK ON THE CASE AFTER THAT?

# 355 A:

I CAN'T REMEMBER, SIR.

# 356 Q:

YOU DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HAD DONE ANYTHING ON THE CASE SINCE THIS PROCEEDING BEGAN?

# 357 A:

I DON'T BELIEVE I HAVE, NO.

# 358 Q:

ALL RIGHT.

# 359 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL.)

# 360 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: DID YOU RECEIVE AN INSTRUCTION OF SOME SORT, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, TO ABSTAIN FROM VIEWING THESE PROCEEDINGS?

# 361 A:

YES.

# 362 Q:

AND HAVE YOU FOLLOWED THAT INSTRUCTION?

# 363 A:

YES, SIR.

# 364 Q:

NOW, OVER THE LUNCH HOUR, DID YOU HAVE ANY CHANCE TO REFLECT OR HAVE YOUR MEMORY ASSISTED BY ANY OF THE MINIONS FOR THE PROSECUTION AS TO THE SESSIONS THAT OCCURRED BEFORE THE TRIAL, YOUR PART OF THIS TRIAL AND SINCE THE FIRST OF THE YEAR?

# 365 A:

NO.

# 366 Q:

WOULD YOU SAY, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, THAT IN ADDITION TO THIS BEING THE LARGEST CASE IN WHICH YOU'VE EVER BEEN INVOLVED, THIS IS PERHAPS THE MOST IMPORTANT TESTIMONY IN WHICH YOU'VE EVER BEEN INVOLVED?

# 367 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. VAGUE, IMPORTANT.

# 368 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 369 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: HAVE YOU NOT BEEN VERY CONCERNED SINCE JANUARY 1 AND BEYOND WITH THE EXPERIENCE OF TESTIFYING IN THIS CASE?

# 370 A:

I BELIEVE I WAS CONCERNED WITH THE ALLEGATIONS THAT HAD BEEN BROUGHT FORTH AGAINST ME.

# 371 Q:

YES.

# 372 A:

YES.

# 373 Q:

YOU WERE CONCERNED WITH SOMETHING HAPPENING WHICH HAS NOW HAPPENED, CORRECT?

# 374 MS. CLARK:

NO. OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 375 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 376 MR. BAILEY:

WITHDRAWN.

# 377 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: HAVING THAT IN MIND, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WERE YOU ANXIOUS THAT YOU DELIVER A GOOD PERFORMANCE ON THE WITNESS STAND?

# 378 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. ARGUMENTATIVE.

# 379 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 380 MS. CLARK:

VAGUE.

# 381 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 382 DET. MARK FUHRMAN:

I'M ALWAYS CONCERNED WITH THAT IN EVERY CASE.

# 383 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: IN THIS CASE MORE THAN OTHERS, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

# 384 A:

I'M TESTIFYING JUST LIKE I DO IN ANY OTHER CASE.

# 385 Q:

UH-HUH. AND HAVE YOU EVER IN ANY OTHER CASE FACED ACCUSATIONS SUCH AS YOU EXPECTED IN THIS CASE?

# 386 MS. CLARK:

WELL, YOUR HONOR, OBJECTION.

# 387 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 388 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: HAVE YOU EVER IN ANY OTHER CASE HAD THE BENEFIT --

# 389 MS. CLARK:

ASK TO APPROACH.

# 390 MR. BAILEY:

MAY I FINISH THE QUESTION?

# 391 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: HAVE YOU EVER IN ANY OTHER CASE HAD THE BENEFIT OF A GRAND JURY CASE PREPARATION SESSION SUCH AS YOU HAD HERE?

# 392 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. DENIED. YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION.

# 393 DET. MARK FUHRMAN:

NO.

# 394 THE COURT:

I THOUGHT WE ALREADY ASKED THAT ONCE BEFORE.

# 395 MR. BAILEY:

OKAY.

# 396 MS. CLARK:

ASKED AND ANSWERED.

# 397 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: OKAY. NOW, HAVING IN MIND ALL OF THAT, YOU MAINTAIN THAT YOU HAVE ALMOST NO RECOLLECTION OF THE SESSIONS INTENDED TO PREPARE YOU FOR THIS TESTIMONY?

# 398 A:

THAT'S CORRECT, SIR.

KEY QUOTE

# 399 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.

# 400 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 401 MR. BAILEY:

HAVE WE SOLVED THE EARLIER PROBLEM YOUR HONOR DESCRIBED AT THE --

# 402 THE COURT:

NOTHING HAS BEEN SUBMITTED TO ME.

# 403 MR. BAILEY:

I UNDERSTOOD IT WAS COMING FORTHWITH. HAVE WE LEARNED THE STATUS OF THAT PERHAPS?

# 404 THE COURT:

MISS LEWIS?

# 405 MS. LEWIS:

I'LL CHECK ON IT.

# 406 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 407 MS. LEWIS:

IF I COULD JUST APPROACH OFF THE RECORD.

# 408 (A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.)

# 409 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

# 410 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE DEFENDANT.)

# 411 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 412 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. MR. BAILEY, CAN WE USE THE TIME PROFITABLY?

# 413 MR. BAILEY:

WELL, I DIDN'T WANT TO INTERRUPT THE CONFERENCE OF MY COLLEAGUES, BUT I WOULD CERTAINLY LIKE TO DO THAT, YOUR HONOR.

# 414 THE COURT:

THANK YOU.

# 415 MS. CLARK:

THANK YOU.

# 416 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, AS I RECALL, IN YOUR INITIAL ARRIVAL AT THE ASHFORD GATE AND IN THE DEVELOPMENTS THAT OCCURRED THEREAFTER INCLUDING THE OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THE BRONCO, YOU WERE CONCERNED THAT SOMEBODY MIGHT BE BLEEDING TO DEATH, INCLUDING O.J. SIMPSON INSIDE HIS HOUSE, CORRECT?

# 417 A:

I SAID SOMEBODY. I DIDN'T USE THE WORD "O.J. SIMPSON."

# 418 Q:

NO, NO.

# 419 A:

YES, SIR.

# 420 Q:

I'M ADDING IT. WASN'T HE ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT COULD HAVE BEEN BLEEDING TO DEATH IN THE O.J. SIMPSON HOUSE?

# 421 A:

YES, SIR.

# 422 Q:

WHEN YOU GOT INTO THAT HOUSE FINALLY AND STARTED TALKING TO PEOPLE, DID YOU EVER ASK ANYONE WHERE O.J. WAS?

# 423 A:

NO.

# 424 MR. BAILEY:

ALL RIGHT. THE ONLY OTHER QUESTION I HAVE, YOUR HONOR, IS RELATED TO THAT DOCUMENT WHICH I ASSUME IS ON THE WAY.

# 425 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, WE ARE GOING TO TAKE A BRIEF RECESS. THIS WILL PROBABLY ONLY BE ABOUT FIVE OR 10 MINUTES, ASK YOU TO STEP BACK IN THE JURY ROOM, WILL GIVE YOU ENOUGH TIME FOR A COMFORT BREAK. DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, YOU CAN STEP DOWN. STAY IN THE COURTROOM, PLEASE.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Mark Fuhrman

BY HIS STATEMENT, ABSOLUTELY.

Fuhrman's claim that Kato Kaelin 'directed' him to search the south fence line — by giving a witness statement — was a gift to Bailey, who hammered the absurdity of a civilian 'directing' an LAPD detective.

Mark Fuhrman

KNOWING HE WAS IN CHICAGO, I THINK IT WOULD BE QUITE THE OPPOSITE.

Fuhrman claimed finding the glove on Simpson's property actually argued against suspicion because Simpson was in Chicago — a logically backward answer Bailey let hang in the air.

Mark Fuhrman

THERE WAS NOTHING SHE INDICATED THAT SHOULD BE INTERVIEWED FOR, NO.

Fuhrman's justification for not interviewing Rosa Lopez — despite never having asked her a single question about the murders — was immediately exposed by Bailey's follow-up.

F. Lee Bailey

WELL, YOU NEVER ASKED HER A QUESTION. HOW COULD SHE INDICATE ANYTHING?

Bailey's sharpest rhetorical blow of the session, catching Fuhrman in an incoherent justification for a significant investigative failure.

Mark Fuhrman

THAT'S CORRECT, SIR.

Fuhrman confirmed he maintained 'almost no recollection' of multiple grand jury case preparation sessions, a claim Bailey framed as either dishonest or incompetent given the stakes of his testimony.

Evidence (5)

Informal

Ziploc sandwich-size plastic bag (~6x7.5 inches), shown by Bailey to establish bag types available in homicide kits

Shown to witness; court noted for record by Judge Ito

Informal

Left-hand glove at Bundy crime scene

Discussed — Fuhrman re-examined technique of lifting it with a pen to view lining and determine handedness

Informal

Right-hand glove found at Rockingham

Referenced in comparison to Bundy glove

Informal

Ford Bronco — contents (shovel, plastic sheeting), blood on exterior, sole drivership by Simpson

Discussed as element Bailey used to challenge Fuhrman's claim Simpson was only a 'remote' suspect

Informal

Unspecified document pending delivery to court (referenced twice by Bailey)

Awaited; proceedings paused twice; never identified in transcript

Notable Exchanges (4)

F. Lee Bailey•Mark Fuhrman

Bailey pressed Fuhrman on his decision not to interview Rosa Lopez, leading Fuhrman to claim she gave no indication she should be interviewed — despite Fuhrman never having asked her a single question about the murders.

devastating

F. Lee Bailey•Mark Fuhrman

Bailey sarcastically asked whether Kato Kaelin had 'ordered' Fuhrman to search the fence line. Fuhrman doubled down, insisting Kato's statement 'directed' him and that the logical action and direction were 'one and the same.' Bailey let the answer speak for itself.

revealing

F. Lee Bailey•Mark Fuhrman

Bailey methodically walked Fuhrman through everything he knew that morning — the Bronco, the glove, the limousine, the blood — and asked at each step whether Simpson was a suspect. Fuhrman consistently minimized, claiming the Chicago alibi made suspicion 'quite the opposite,' a position Bailey found internally contradictory.

strategic

F. Lee Bailey•Mark Fuhrman

Bailey questioned whether Fuhrman had received counseling, psychological consultations, or any coaching for testimony — framing the grand jury prep sessions as extraordinary trial preparation Fuhrman conveniently could not remember.

probing

Light Moments (2)

F. Lee Bailey

Bailey asked whether Fuhrman couldn't 'interrupt [Vannatter] writing a search warrant to see if it was okay to talk to the next-door neighbor's maid' — a withering but dry rhetorical question that required no answer.

F. Lee Bailey

Bailey referred to prosecutors as 'the minions for the prosecution' when asking whether Fuhrman's memory had been refreshed over the lunch break.

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ Mark Fuhrman

Omission / investigative failure

Bailey established that Fuhrman never asked Rosa Lopez a single question about the murders, the Bronco, or unusual activity — then demolished Fuhrman's claim that she 'indicated nothing' warranting an interview.

⚔ Mark Fuhrman

Prior inconsistent reasoning

Bailey contrasted Fuhrman's stated rationale for going over the fence (fear someone was hurt, the Bronco blood) with his simultaneous claim that Simpson was only a 'remote' suspect — pointing out the logical inconsistency.

⚔ Mark Fuhrman

Memory lapse / preparation for testimony

Bailey highlighted that Fuhrman could recall almost nothing about extraordinary pre-trial grand jury preparation sessions, despite acknowledging they were unlike anything in his prior experience, and suggesting this selective amnesia was convenient.

⚔ Mark Fuhrman

Bias / independent action without authorization

Bailey underscored that Fuhrman went to the Salinger property, encountered a potential witness, and made a unilateral decision she was unimportant — all without consulting senior detectives Lange or Vannatter.

Witness Demeanor

(BRIEF PAUSE.) — multiple off-record discussions interrupted examination flow

(A CONFERENCE WAS HELD AT THE BENCH, NOT REPORTED.) — mid-examination bench conference

Fuhrman corrected himself mid-answer: 'NO, WE HAVE A -- I'M SORRY.' — slight hesitation on bag types

Fuhrman became notably evasive on whether he was 'looking for a knife,' refusing to answer yes or no, claiming it could not be answered that way

Objections

15 objections (6 sustained, 7 overruled)

Proceeding 5299 • 425 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103