📄 Cross-examination of Mark Fuhrman (morning, part 2) — Tuesday, March 14, 1995
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\14\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-MARK-FUHR.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 37 of 167

Cross-examination of Mark Fuhrman (morning, part 2)

Witness: Det. Mark Fuhrman
Examiner: F. Lee Bailey
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Tuesday, March 14, 1995 • Utterances: 270
F. Lee Bailey cross-examines Detective Mark Fuhrman by methodically working through Fuhrman's July 1995 preliminary hearing transcript, catching him in a series of potential inconsistencies. The most significant confrontation centers on Fuhrman's use of the word 'in' when describing blood in the Bronco — a word that could imply inside knowledge — and his use of the plural 'them' when ostensibly referring only to a single glove. Bailey also challenges Fuhrman's account of finding the glove, his interaction with Kato Kaelin, and his failure to check the second floor of the Simpson home despite declaring an emergency.
1 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN DEFENSE COUNSEL AND THE DEFENDANT.)
2 MR. BAILEY:

WAS A COPY GIVEN TO THE WITNESS AND THE COURT?

3 THE COURT:

I HAVE ONE.

4 (BRIEF PAUSE.)
5 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: BY THE WAY, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, BEFORE WE TURN TO THIS EARLIER INSTANCE OF TESTIMONY, TWO MATTERS THAT I OVERLOOKED. ONE WAS DID YOU EVER GO TO THE SECOND FLOOR OF THE SIMPSON HOME LOOKING FOR BLEEDING OR OTHERWISE TROUBLED VICTIMS?

6 A:

NO.

7 Q:

DID ANY OF YOUR TEAM, THE FOUR DETECTIVES, TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE, GO AND INSPECT THE BALANCE OF THE HOUSE?

8 A:

I DO NOT KNOW.

9 Q:

WAS IT NOT YOU WHO SAID TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER, "WE HAVE AN EMERGENCY HERE. THERE MAY BE PEOPLE BLEEDING TO DEATH INSIDE"?

10 A:

YES.

11 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND ONCE YOU GOT INSIDE, YOU DIDN'T GO TO SEE WHO MIGHT BE BLEEDING TO DEATH ON THE SECOND FLOOR; IS THAT RIGHT?

12 A:

I DIDN'T MAKE ENTRY AT THAT TIME.

13 Q:

OKAY. YESTERDAY YOU RELATED SOME BLOOD STAINS THAT YOU SAW AT THE BOTTOM OF THE DOOR OF THE BRONCO. MY UNDERSTANDING WAS IT WAS ON THE SILL?

14 A:

YES, SIR.

15 Q:

AND YOU CLAIM THAT THESE MARKS, BRUSH MARKS I THINK YOU DESCRIBED THEM AS, WERE VISIBLE WITH THE DOOR CLOSED?

16 A:

YES.

17 Q:

IT IS YOUR POSITION THAT IN YOUR PRESENCE AT LEAST THE BRONCO WAS NEVER OPENED OR ANY OF ITS DOORS OR WINDOWS WHILE YOU WERE THERE?

18 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

19 Q:

OKAY. AND YOU NEVER SAW ANYONE ELSE DO IT?

20 A:

NO, I DID NOT.

21 Q:

DID YOU AT SOME POINT GET TO SHOW CRIMINALIST FUNG THE LOCATION OF THE BRUSH MARKS YOU HAVE DESCRIBED?

22 A:

YES, I DID.

23 Q:

COULD YOU TELL THE COURT AND JURY WHEN THAT OCCURRED AND WHO WAS PRESENT?

24 A:

DENNIS FUNG I BELIEVE ARRIVED AT THE ROCKINGHAM ESTATE 7:30, EIGHT O'CLOCK, SOMEWHERE AROUND THAT AREA. IT WAS THEN THAT I SHOWED HIM THE ITEMS ON THE BRONCO.

25 Q:

YOU HAD COME BACK FROM BUNDY?

26 A:

YES, SIR.

27 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU TAKE HIM OUT INDIVIDUALLY TO THE BRONCO, POINT THEM OUT?

28 A:

YES, I DID.

29 Q:

WAS THE DOOR OPENED ON THIS OCCASION BY EITHER OF YOU?

30 A:

NO.

31 Q:

AND YOU NEVER SAW THAT DOOR OPENED TO THIS DAY, HAVE YOU?

32 A:

NO, I DID NOT.

33 MR. BAILEY:

OKAY.

34 (BRIEF PAUSE.)
35 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, A PRELIMINARY HEARING IN THIS CASE TOOK PLACE EARLY IN JULY, DID IT NOT?

36 A:

YES, SIR.

37 Q:

AND YOU TESTIFIED BOTH ON JULY 5TH AND JULY 6TH, IN RESPONSE TO QUESTIONS BY MS. CLARK AND DEAN UELMEN FOR THE DEFENSE?

38 A:

YES.

39 Q:

SEVERAL DIRECT AND SEVERAL CROSS-EXAMINATIONS. DO YOU RECALL THAT?

40 A:

YES, SIR.

41 Q:

AND WERE YOU TRYING AT THAT TIME, TO THE VERY BEST YOUR ABILITY, TO BE ACCURATE IN EACH OF YOUR VARIOUS UTTERANCES?

42 A:

YES, I WAS.

43 Q:

OKAY. NOW, COULD YOU TURN, PLEASE, TO PAGE 41 OF THE TRANSCRIPT THAT HAS BEEN PLACED IN FRONT OF YOU.

44 (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
45 Q:

I ASK YOU TO LOOK AT LINE 14. YOU WERE ASKED BY MISS CLARK THE NATURE OF A CERTAIN CONVERSATION WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER WHILE YOU WERE STILL WITHOUT THE PREMISES, CORRECT?

46 A:

YES, SIR.

47 Q:

AND YOUR ANSWER WAS: "I TOLD DETECTIVE VANNATTER, I SAID 'WE GOT A REAL -- WE GOT AN EMERGENCY, WE GOT A PROBLEM -- WE GOT -- WE DON'T KNOW IF WE HAVE PEOPLE INSIDE THAT ARE IN DANGER, DYING, BLEEDING TO DEATH. WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING. I DON'T CARE WHOSE HOUSE THIS IS. WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING. WE DON'T KNOW IF WE HAVE A MURDER, SUICIDE, A KIDNAPPING, ANOTHER VICTIM,' AND PHIL AGREED AND WE TOOK OUR OPINIONS TO DETECTIVE LANGE AND PHILLIPS AND DISCUSSED THE POSSIBILITIES." DO YOU RECALL THAT TESTIMONY?

48 A:

YES, SIR.

49 Q:

DOES THAT ACCURATELY DESCRIBE THE SEQUENCE IN WHICH YOU DETECTIVES BECAME CONCERNED OR AT LEAST EXPRESSED YOUR CONCERN ABOUT POSSIBLE VICTIMS INSIDE?

50 A:

SOMEWHAT.

51 Q:

SO THAT THIS IDEA WAS INITIATED BY DETECTIVE MARK FUHRMAN, WAS IT NOT?

52 A:

NO. THIS WAS A CONVERSATION BETWEEN VANNATTER AND MYSELF AND THAT IS A COLLECTIVE CONVERSATION.

53 Q:

THIS IS COLLECTIVE?

54 A:

YES. THOSE ARE MY FEELINGS ABSENT OF THE CONVERSATION -- THE RECIPROCAL OF DETECTIVE VANNATTER.

55 Q:

I SEE. WELL, NOW DO YOU SEE ANYTHING, BEGINNING AT LINE 15, ABOUT VANNATTER SPEAKING TO YOU?

56 A:

NO, SIR.

57 Q:

OKAY. DO YOU SEE THAT MOST OF WHAT I HAVE JUST RECITED IS IN QUOTES AND THUS ATTRIBUTED BY THE COURT REPORTER TO YOU TALKING ABOUT YOURSELF? DO YOU NOTICE THAT?

58 A:

YES, SIR.

59 Q:

OKAY. NOW, IS IT NOT THE FACT THAT THE FIRST ONE TO SUGGEST AN EMERGENCY AND THE NEED TO DO SOMETHING RIGHT NOW WAS YOU?

60 A:

I DON'T KNOW IF IT WAS ME THAT FIRST SUGGESTED IT. VANNATTER AND I WERE BOTH TALKING ABOUT IT. I DON'T KNOW HOW IT CAME DOWN EXACTLY TO THAT POINT.

61 Q:

OKAY. AFTER AUTHORITY HAD BEEN OBTAINED FROM THE NECESSARY BRASS -- I THINK COMMANDER BUSHEY WAS IT?

62 A:

YES, SIR.

63 Q:

-- TO GO IN WITHOUT A WARRANT --

64 A:

COMMANDER BUSHEY HAD NO SAY IN THAT, SIR.

65 Q:

OH, HE DIDN'T?

66 A:

NO.

67 Q:

VANNATTER DIDN'T CHECK WITH ANYONE?

68 A:

NO.

69 Q:

HE MADE THE DECISION?

70 A:

HE MADE THE DECISION.

71 Q:

OKAY. WHEN HE DECIDED THAT YOU WERE RIGHT AND IT WAS NECESSARY TO GO IN, HOW WERE YOU ELECTED TO GO OVER THE WALL?

72 MS. CLARK:

WELL, OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY, "DECIDED THAT HE WAS RIGHT."

73 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

74 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: HOW WERE YOU ELECTED TO BE THE ONE TO GO OVER THE WALL?

75 A:

PHIL MADE A STATEMENT THAT, "WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO GO IN. HOW ARE WE GOING TO DO IT?" AND I SAID, "WELL, I WILL GO OVER THE WALL."

76 Q:

ALL RIGHT. YOU VOLUNTEERED TO DO THAT IN RESPONSE TO HIS QUERY HOW CAN WE ACCOMPLISH IT, CORRECT?

77 A:

YES.

78 Q:

ALL RIGHT. ON PAGE 46, LINE 15, WHEN YOU WERE WITH KATO KAELIN IN HIS ROOM, YOU SAY THAT YOU STAYED BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHO MR. KAELIN WAS AND: "I WASN'T SURE IF HE WAS EVEN SUPPOSED TO BE THERE. I STAYED WITH HIM AND ENGAGED HIM IN A CONVERSATION ABOUT WHO HE WAS AND WHAT HE WAS DOING THERE AND A FEW OTHER THINGS." MY QUESTION IS, IS THAT ACCURATE?

79 A:

I BELIEVE SO, YES.

80 Q:

DID YOU DETERMINE THAT KATO KAELIN, FROM TALKING TO HIM, WAS A PROPER PERSON TO BE IN THAT HOUSE AT THAT TIME?

81 A:

I DON'T -- I NEVER SAW ANY IDENTIFICATION AS FAR AS AN ADDRESS. HE MIGHT HAVE SAID HE LIVES THERE OR HE STAYS THERE.

82 Q:

OKAY. WOULD YOU TURN TO PAGE 48, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.

83 (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
84 Q:

IT IS THE LATTER PART OF A LONG ANSWER WHICH GOES ALMOST TWO FULL PAGES. I'M INTERESTED IN ONLY A FEW LINES. I WILL READ THE WHOLE QUESTION AND ANSWER IF YOU PREFER. WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO DO THAT?

85 A:

YES, SIR.

86 Q:

OKAY. THE ORIGINAL QUESTION WAS: "DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM," MEANING KATO KAELIN, "AT THAT TIME," 47 LINE 12. "ANSWER: YES. SIMULTANEOUS WITH -- I WAS WALKING -- I WALKED TO THE BATHROOM WHICH I COULDN'T SEE INTO FROM WHERE I WAS STANDING AT THE DOORWAY. I WALKED IN JUST TO MAKE SURE NOBODY WAS IN THERE AND I OPENED UP THE CLOSETS TO MAKE SURE NO ONE WAS STANDING IN THE CLOSETS. I ENGAGED HIM IN CONVERSATION WHILE I WAS DOING THAT. I NOTICED A PILE OF CLOTHES TO THE -- IF YOU WERE LYING IN THE BED, IT WOULD BE THE RIGHT SIDE, NEXT TO THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE BED AND A PAIR OF SHOES. I ASKED HIM IF THOSE WERE THE CLOTHES HE WORE AND HE SAID 'LAST NIGHT' AND HE SAID 'YES' AND I SAID, 'MIND IF I LOOK AT THEM?' HE SAID, 'NO.' I PICKED UP THE SHOES. I LOOKED AT THE SOLES. I PICKED UP THE CLOTHES AND I LOOKED AT THE CLOTHES. THERE DIDN'T APPEAR TO BE ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THEM. I PUT THEM BACK WHERE THEY WERE AND I WAS STILL TALKING TO MR. KAELIN. I ASKED HIM IF THERE IS ANYTHING UNUSUAL THAT HAPPENED THAT NIGHT BEFORE HE ANSWERED -- BEFORE I LET HIM ANSWER, I ASKED, 'WHO DRIVES THE BRONCO?' HE SAYS, 'WELL, THAT'S O.J.'S.' I SAID, 'IS THAT ALL? IS THAT THE ONLY PERSON THAT DRIVES IT?' AND HE GOES, 'YEAH.' I ASKED IF THERE WAS ANYTHING UNUSUAL THAT HAPPENED THE PREVIOUS NIGHT. HE SAID, 'WELL, ABOUT QUARTER TO 11:00 I HEARD SOME CRASHING ON MY WALL AND I THOUGHT THERE WAS GOING TO BE AN EARTHQUAKE, BUT THAT WAS ONLY NOISE, JUST ONE TIME AND MY PICTURE SHOOK,' AND HE POINTED TO A PICTURE WHICH WAS JUST TO THE WEST OF HIS BED WHICH WOULD BE THE FAR RIGHT OF HIS ROOM LOOKING INTO HIS ROOM FROM THE DOORWAY. THEN HE SAID, 'I WENT OUTSIDE TO SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON AND I SAW A LIMO AT THE GATE.'"

87 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. OBJECTION. THAT MISSTATES THE TESTIMONY.

88 THE COURT:

WHY DON'T YOU REREAD IT.

89 MR. BAILEY:

I'M SORRY. "I WENT OUTSIDE TO SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH THE NOISE AND I SAW A LIMO AT THE GATE.' AT THAT POINT I INTERRUPTED HIM AND I TOOK HIM INTO THE HOUSE WHERE NOW MR. SIMPSON'S DAUGHTER AND THE THREE DETECTIVES HAD ALREADY ENTERED THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE AND THE DOOR WAS OPENED."

90 Q:

DID YOU GIVE THAT ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION ON YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK ON JULY 5TH?

91 A:

YES, SIR.

92 Q:

ALL RIGHT. SO THAT IN FACT WHEN YOU INTERRUPTED MR. KAELIN, AFTER ASKING HIM ABOUT UNUSUAL EVENTS, YOU PUT TWO QUESTIONS, NO. 1, WHOSE BRONCO IS IT, AND NO. 2, IS HE THE ONLY ONE THAT DRIVES IT, CORRECT?

93 A:

YES, SIR.

94 Q:

WHY WAS IT IMPORTANT TO KNOW THAT THEN, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

95 A:

WELL, THERE WAS BLOOD ON THE VEHICLE.

96 Q:

OKAY. NOW, I SUGGESTED TO YOU SOME TIME AGO THAT YOU DIRECTED DETECTIVE VANNATTER TO GO IN AND INTERROGATE KAELIN AND YOU HAD SOME DOUBTS ABOUT THAT?

97 A:

DOUBTS OF MY PRESENCE OF MIND, NO, NONE AT ALL.

98 Q:

DOUBTS ABOUT WHETHER YOU WOULD GIVE AN ORDER TO A MAN AS SUPERIOR TO YOU AS THE LEAD DETECTIVE IN THIS CASE?

99 A:

I DID NOT GIVE HIM ANY ORDER.

100 Q:

WELL, WHEN YOU DESCRIBED BRINGING KAELIN INTO THE HOUSE MISS CLARK ASKED: "WHERE DID YOU PUT HIM?"

AND YOU SAID: "THERE'S A BAR INSIDE THAT LOOKS LIKE A RECREATION ROOM, A BILLIARD ROOM, AND JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THAT, AS YOU ARE ENTERING THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE, THERE IS FOUR OR FIVE BARSTOOLS. I SAID, 'WHY DON'T YOU JUST SIT HERE FOR A SECOND. ONE OF THE DETECTIVES IS GOING TO TALK FOR A FEW MINUTES. JUST SIT HERE AND RELAX.' I CONTINUED TOWARDS THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE AND RIGHT BY THE KITCHEN I SAW DETECTIVE VANNATTER, AND I TOLD HIM, I SAYS, 'TALK TO THE MAN THAT WAS IN THE BUNGALOW. HE IS SEATED AT THE BAR.' AND I CONTINUED OUT THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE." NOW, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, YOU HAD BEEN TALKING WITH MR. KAELIN BEFORE YOU DECIDED TO GO OUTSIDE THE BUILDING, HAD YOU NOT?

101 A:

YES.

102 Q:

WHY DID YOU FIND IT NECESSARY THAT ANOTHER DETECTIVE TAKE UP THE INTERROGATION?

103 A:

I DIDN'T THINK IT NECESSARY.

104 Q:

WHY DID YOU DIRECT DETECTIVE VANNATTER TO DO IT?

105 A:

I WAS GOING TO INVESTIGATE WHERE THE NOISE CAME FROM.

106 Q:

WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL HIM THE SUBJECT MATTER ABOUT WHICH HE OUGHT TO BE CONCERNED, IF HE WAS GOING TO INTERROGATE A WITNESS?

107 A:

NO REASON. I WANTED TO GO INVESTIGATE THE NOISE TO SEE IF WE COULD EVEN GET TO THAT SOUTH WALL.

108 Q:

WHY DID YOU NOT TELL HIM THAT YOU WERE GOING TO GO INVESTIGATE A NOISE AND HE SHOULD FINISH THE INTERROGATION?

109 A:

NO REASON.

110 Q:

NO REASON? OKAY. ON THAT SAME PAGE. RIGHT AFTER YOU SAID ON LINE 18: "AND I CONTINUED OUT THE FRONT OF THE RESIDENCE," MISS CLARK SAID: "WHY?" AND YOUR RESPONSE WAS: "WELL, I WAS -- FROM THE STATEMENT HE MADE, THE CRASHING SOUND AND THE TIME THAT HE HEARD IT, COMBINED WITH THE BLOOD IN THE BRONCO, THE WAY I WAS FEELING IS THERE IS A POSSIBILITY THERE COULD BE ANOTHER VICTIM, A SUSPECT THAT HAD COLLAPSED OR ESCAPED VIA THAT ROUTE IN THE SOUTHERN BORDER OF THE HOUSE." DO YOU READ THE ANSWER IN FRONT OF YOU?

111 A:

I DO, SIR.

112 Q:

DO YOU AGREE THAT I HAVE CITED IT CORRECTLY AS IT APPEARS IN THE TRANSCRIPT?

113 A:

YES.

114 Q:

HOW DID YOU KNOW AT THAT JUNCTURE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, THAT THERE WAS OR WOULD BE BLOOD IN THE BRONCO?

KEY QUOTE
115 A:

I DIDN'T.

116 Q:

WHY DID YOU USE THE WORD "IN"?

117 A:

I'M NOT SURE I DID.

118 Q:

IS THIS THE FIRST TIME IT HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO YOUR ATTENTION THAT YOU USED THE WORD "IN"?

119 A:

IT IS THE FIRST TIME YOU HAVE READ IT, BUT I NEVER USED THE WORD "IN" AS FAR AS SAYING THERE WAS BLOOD IN THE BRONCO.

120 Q:

YOU DIDN'T USE THE WORD "IN"?

121 A:

I'M NOT SURE, SIR, BUT I DID NOT SEE ANY BLOOD IN THE BRONCO.

122 Q:

YOU USED THE WORD "IN" THE BRONCO AND IT WAS UNINTENTIONAL, MIGHT THAT BE, SIR, A SLIP OF THE TONGUE?

123 A:

NO, IT MIGHT NOT.

124 Q:

IT MIGHT NOT. UNLESS IT WAS A SLIP OF THE TONGUE AND IF YOU IN FACT SAID IT, YOU HAVE NO EXPLANATION WHATSOEVER FOR THAT MISTAKE? IS THAT THE WAY YOU WISH TO LEAVE IT?

125 A:

NO. I WISH TO LEAVE IT TO SAY THAT THERE WAS NO BLOOD THAT I OBSERVED INSIDE THE BRONCO PRIOR TO GOING INTO THE RESIDENCE THAT MORNING.

126 Q:

MY QUESTION WAS, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, IF YOU DID IN FACT SAY THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT HAD YOU DISTURBED AT THAT POINT WAS BLOOD IN THE BRONCO AND IT WASN'T A SLIP OF THE TONGUE, WHY WOULD YOU HAVE USED THAT WORD?

127 A:

I DIDN'T SEE ANY BLOOD IN THE BRONCO, SIR.

128 Q:

WHY WOULD YOU HAVE USED THE WORD "IN," DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, PLEASE?

129 A:

I TOLD YOU I'M NOT SURE I DID.

KEY QUOTE
130 Q:

WELL, THERE IS A VIDEOTAPE OF YOUR TESTIMONY. HAVE YOU REVIEWED THAT RECENTLY?

131 A:

NO, NEVER HAVE.

132 Q:

DO YOU THINK THAT WOULD HELP TO DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THE COURT REPORTER MADE THIS MISTAKE OR YOU DID?

133 A:

YES, SIR.

134 Q:

OKAY. WE WILL GET TO THAT. ON PAGE 54, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, UNDER CROSS-EXAMINATION -- I'M SORRY -- TOWARD THE END OF YOUR DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MISS CLARK AND AFTER SAYING THAT YOU NOTICED THE GLOVE AND IDENTIFYING IT IN A PHOTO MARKED FOR THAT HEARING AS D, I WILL ASK YOU WHETHER OR NOT YOU ASKED THESE QUESTIONS AND GAVE THESE ANSWERS: "BY MISS CLARK: WHEN YOU SAW THAT GLOVE, DID IT HAVE SOME SIGNIFICANCE TO YOU? "ANSWER: YES. IT LOOKED VERY SIMILAR TO THE GLOVE THAT I OBSERVED ON BUNDY HOURS BEFORE. "QUESTION: AND BASED ON THAT OBSERVATION, SIR, WHAT DID YOU DO? "ANSWER: I LOOKED AT IT A LITTLE CLOSER. I NOTED THAT IT DID NOT MATCH THE TERRAIN." WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT?

135 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, THERE IS -- THAT IS ONLY PART OF THE ANSWER. WE REQUEST THAT IT BE READ IN ITS ENTIRETY.

136 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

137 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: ALL RIGHT. WE WILL COME BACK TO THAT, DETECTIVE. "AS YOU CAN SEE, THERE IS A LOT OF DIRT AND LEAVES. THIS GLOVE WAS NOT DIRTY IN THE LEAST. IT LOOKED A LITTLE STICKY AND MOIST. TWO FINGERS WERE STUCK TO THE GLOVE. IT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS STUCK THERE WITH SOME TYPE OF LIQUID. I DIDN'T TOUCH IT. I WENT PAST THE AIR CONDITIONING DUCT THAT YOU CAN SEE IN PHOTO A AND AS SOON AS I WENT PAST THAT AIR CONDITIONING DUCT LOOKING FOR THE PERSON THAT MIGHT HAVE DROPPED THE GLOVE, THINKING THAT THEY WERE FARTHER DOWN THE WALKWAY, I RAN INTO SPIDERWEBS IMMEDIATELY." DO YOU RECALL GIVING THAT ANSWER?

138 A:

YES.

139 Q:

ALL RIGHT. SO I TAKE IT IT IS TRUE THAT YOUR FIRST STEP AFTER SEEING THE GLOVE WAS TO GO LOOK FOR THE PERSON WHO DROPPED IT?

140 A:

YES.

141 Q:

THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SAYING HERE?

142 A:

YES.

143 Q:

AND YOU EXPECTED THAT THE PERSON WHO DROPPED IT WOULD BE A KILLER?

144 A:

I DIDN'T KNOW THAT. AS WE BROUGHT UP BEFORE, IT WAS --

145 Q:

WHAT DID YOU EXPECT?

146 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, ASKED AND ANSWERED.

147 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. BUT LET HIM FINISH HIS ANSWER BEFORE YOU ASK HIM THE NEXT QUESTION, MR. BAILEY.

148 MR. BAILEY:

YES, YOUR HONOR.

149 Q:

WHAT DID YOU EXPECT TO FIND IN THE NATURE OF THE PERSON WHO HAD DROPPED THE GLOVE?

150 A:

I HAD NO IDEA, SIR.

151 Q:

AND THAT DIDN'T CAUSE YOU ANY APPREHENSION FOR YOUR SAFETY?

152 A:

YES, IT DID.

153 Q:

WELL, DID YOU TAKE ANY PRECAUTIONS?

154 A:

YES.

155 Q:

WHAT DID YOU DO?

156 A:

I MOVED FORWARD INSTEAD OF BACKWARD.

KEY QUOTE
157 Q:

YOU MOVED FORWARD IN THE DIRECTION OF DANGER, INSTEAD OF BACKWARD AWAY FROM THE DIRECTION OF DANGER WHICH WAS A PRECAUTION AS YOU VIEWED IT?

158 A:

YES. GIVING SOMEONE MY BACK WOULD BE FAR MORE HAZARDOUS THAN FACING A THREAT STRAIGHT ON.

159 Q:

I'M SORRY. I THINK YOU SAID THAT AS YOU PROCEEDED PAST THE AIR CONDITIONING DUCT, THAT IS EAST WHERE YOU HADN'T BEEN, RIGHT?

160 A:

YES.

161 Q:

YOU DID THAT LOOKING FOR THE PERSON THAT MIGHT HAVE DROPPED THE GLOVE?

162 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.)
163 Q:

YOU SAID THAT, DIDN'T YOU?

164 A:

YES.

165 Q:

WELL, IF THAT IS THE CASE, THEN THE DANGER WAS IN FRONT OF YOU AND YOUR BACK WAS PERFECTLY SAFE, WASN'T IT?

166 A:

IF I TURNED AROUND AND WENT BACK WEST IT WOULDN'T BE SAFE, SIR.

167 Q:

OH, IT WAS SAFER IN YOUR VIEW TO FORGE ON AND MAYBE ENCOUNTER A KILLER THAN IT WAS TO GET OUT OF THERE; IS THAT RIGHT?

168 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

169 Q:

OKAY. WHEN YOU ENCOUNTERED THE SPIDERWEBS DID IT OCCUR TO YOU THAT WHOEVER DROPPED THAT GLOVE HAD COME THE WAY YOU HAD COME AND HAD GONE BACK OUT THE SAME WAY?

170 A:

IT WAS POSSIBLE, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW THE CONDITION THAT THEY WERE IN WHEN THEY LEFT THAT GLOVE.

171 Q:

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ANY CONDITION OF THE PERSON. IF THERE ARE SPIDERWEBS ACROSS A PASSAGEWAY, THE ODDS ARE FAIRLY GOOD THAT NO ONE HAS RUN THROUGH THIS RECENTLY, TRUE?

172 A:

RUN, YES; CRAWLED, UNKNOWN.

173 Q:

OR WALKED. DID YOU SEE ANY MARK ON THE GROUND INDICATING A HUMAN WAS CRAWLING THERE?

174 A:

I SAW NO MARKS ON THE PATH.

175 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION, ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

176 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

177 MS. CLARK:

THAT IT COULD BE SEEN.

178 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

179 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: NOW, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, IN CROSS-EXAMINATION MR. UELMEN DIRECTED SOME QUESTIONS TO YOU ABOUT YOUR ACTIVITIES AT BUNDY AND YOU DESCRIBED, AS YOU DID FOR US -- PAGE 64 AT THE TOP -- THAT: "HAVING BEEN UNABLE TO SEE THE BODIES FROM YOUR ORIGINAL POSITION TO A SATISFACTORY DEGREE, RISKE TOOK YOU AROUND DOROTHY UP THE ALLEY AND IN THROUGH THE HOUSE SO YOU COULD COME OUT THE FRONT DOOR AND HAVE A BETTER VANTAGE POINT AT THE TOP OF THE STEPS WITHOUT WALKING THROUGH THE BLOOD," CORRECT?

180 A:

YES, SIR.

181 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND AT THE TOP OF PAGE 64 YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THAT, AREN'T YOU?

182 A:

YES, I AM.

183 Q:

OKAY. "QUESTION: HOW FAR WOULD YOU SAY YOU WERE FROM WHERE THE BODIES WERE LOCATED? "ANSWER: I WAS DIRECTLY ABOVE THE FEMALE VICTIM WHICH WAS PROBABLY THREE FEET. THE MALE VICTIM WOULD HAVE BEEN TEN FEET, TWELVE FEET. "QUESTION: ALL RIGHT. AND FROM THAT VANTAGE POINT YOU FIRST OBSERVED THE GLOVE THAT YOU TOLD US ABOUT? "ANSWER: NOT FIRST, NO. "QUESTION: WHEN DID YOU FIRST OBSERVE IT? "ANSWER: WE HAD FLASHLIGHTS. WE WERE LOOKING AT THE FEMALE VICTIM. WE LOOKED AT THE MALE VICTIM. I NOTICED THE GLOVE WHEN I WALKED AROUND TO THE -- AFTER I EXITED THE RESIDENCE THE FIRST TIME AND WALKED AROUND TO THE SIDE OR THE NORTH SIDE, NORTH PERIMETER OF BUNDY OF 875 BUNDY, THERE IS AN IRON FENCE AND THROUGH THAT IRON FENCE YOU CAN GET VERY CLOSE TO THE MALE VICTIM, AND LOOKING THERE I COULD SEE THEM AT HIS FEET." DID YOU USE THE WORD "THEM" IN YOUR ANSWER ON JULY 5TH?

184 A:

YES, SIR. YES, SIR.

185 Q:

AND WAS THE LAST ITEM TO WHICH "THEM" COULD HAVE APPLIED IN YOUR NARRATIVE THE WORD "GLOVE"?

186 A:

SINGULAR, YES.

187 Q:

I'M SIMPLY ASKING WHETHER GLOVE, LINE 14, WAS THE ITEM YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT JUST PRIOR TO SAYING "I SAW THEM AT HIS FEET"?

188 A:

"THEM," I WAS REFERRING TO THE KNIT CAP, THE GLOVE.

KEY QUOTE
189 Q:

SHOW ME ANYWHERE ON THAT PAGE WHERE THE KNIT CAP IS MENTIONED? CAN YOU?

190 A:

THAT PAGE, NO.

191 Q:

ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. DO YOU SEE ANYTHING ON THE PRIOR PAGE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, ABOUT THE KNIT CAP?

192 A:

DO YOU WANT ME TO LOOK AT THAT PRIOR PAGE?

193 Q:

SURE. I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU CAN ANSWER THE QUESTION WITHOUT LOOKING AT IT. 63.

194 A:

(WITNESS COMPLIES.) I DO NOT.

195 Q:

PAGE 65, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.

196 THE COURT:

EXCUSE ME, MR. BAILEY.

197 MR. BAILEY:

I'M SORRY.

198 THE COURT:

THE COURT REPORTER NEEDS TO CHANGE HER PAPER.

199 MR. BAILEY:

OKAY.

200 (BRIEF PAUSE.)
201 THE COURT:

MR. BAILEY.

202 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: PAGE 65, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, LINE 8: "DOES THAT PHOTO," REFERRING TO A PHOTO "ACCURATELY DEPICT THE GLOVE AT THE LOCATION WHERE YOU SAW IT? "TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, YES. "QUESTION: ALL RIGHT. AND YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY PICK UP THE GLOVE TO EXAMINE IT, DID YOU? "ANSWER: NOT AT THAT TIME, NO." DID YOU GIVE THAT ANSWER?

203 A:

YES.

204 Q:

AT WHAT TIME DID YOU PICK UP THE GLOVE?

205 A:

I DIDN'T. I TURNED THE GLOVE OVER WITH A PEN WHEN I RETURNED TO THE BUNDY SCENE AFTER BEING AT ROCKINGHAM.

KEY QUOTE
206 Q:

AND THAT IS WHAT YOU MEANT WHEN YOU SAID, "DIDN'T PICK UP THE GLOVE AT THAT TIME"? YOU HAD IN MIND TURNING IT OVER WITH A PEN?

207 A:

I BELIEVE THAT WAS MR. UELMEN'S WORDS AND THE QUESTION. I DIDN'T USE THE WORD "PICK UP."

208 Q:

BUT THE QUESTION WAS PUT TO YOU, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN. HE SAID: "AND YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY PICK THE GLOVE UP TO EXAMINE IT, DID YOU?" AND YOUR ANSWER WAS: "NOT AT THAT TIME, NO." DO YOU SEE ANYTHING IN THAT ANSWER THAT REFERS TO TURNING IT OVER WITH A PEN AT ANY TIME.

209 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION. THIS IS ARGUMENTATIVE.

210 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

211 DET. MARK FUHRMAN:

NOT ON THAT PAGE, NO.

212 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: DID YOU SEE ANOTHER PAGE WHERE YOU INDICATED THAT THAT IS WHAT YOU MEANT BY LATER PICKING UP THE GLOVE?

213 A:

NO, SIR.

214 MS. CLARK:

YOUR HONOR, HE WASN'T ASKED. THIS IS ARGUMENTATIVE.

215 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. SPEAKING OBJECTION, COUNSEL.

216 MS. CLARK:

SORRY.

217 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: YESTERDAY, AND POSSIBLY LAST WEEK, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, YOU INDICATED SOME UNCERTAINTY AS TO WHEN YOU WERE NOTIFIED THAT ONE OF THE VICTIMS WAS IN FACT THE EX-WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON. DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?

218 A:

YES, SIR.

219 Q:

YOU SAID YOU COULDN'T QUITE BE SURE WHEN YOU THOUGHT THAT THAT WAS THE FACT?

220 A:

THAT THE FEMALE VICTIM WAS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?

221 Q:

YES.

222 A:

YES, SIR, I REMEMBER.

223 Q:

AS YOU SIT THERE TODAY, WHAT IS YOUR BEST RECOLLECTION AS TO WHEN YOU DECIDED OR YOUR SUPERIORS DECIDED THAT THIS WAS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON? WHAT TIME OF DAY?

224 A:

I WOULD SAY ON JUNE 13TH SOMETIME BUT I DON'T RECOLLECT WHEN.

225 Q:

ONE, TWO, THREE HOURS AFTER YOU GOT THERE?

226 A:

I HAVE NO IDEA, SIR.

227 Q:

IS IT FAIR TO INFER THAT YOU WENT TO NOTIFY MR. SIMPSON THAT HIS WIFE WAS DEAD A LITTLE AFTER 5:00, THAT YOU THOUGHT SHE WAS IN FACT DEAD, HIS EX-WIFE?

228 A:

I DIDN'T GO THERE AT MY DIRECTION, SO I BELIEVE IT WAS ASSUMED AND I BELIEVE THEY WERE GOING THERE TO FIND OUT ANYTHING ABOUT HER OR MAKE A NOTIFICATION.

229 Q:

PAGE 31, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN.

230 (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
231 Q:

QUESTION BY MISS CLARK AT LINE 4. "WERE YOU AWARE" -- LINE 5 -- "WERE YOU AWARE OF WHO ONE OF THE -- AT LEAST THE FEMALE VICTIM WAS AT THAT TIME? "ANSWER: I WAS NOTIFIED THAT -- WHEN I WAS NOTIFIED AT MY RESIDENCE AT 1:05 I WAS TOLD THAT ONE OF THE VICTIMS WAS THE EX-WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON. "DID YOU RELAY THAT INFORMATION TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

"ANSWER: IT WAS RELAYED, YES." NOW, AFTER YOU WERE TOLD AT 1:05 THAT NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON WAS DEAD, DID YOU CONTINUE TO DOUBT IT?

232 A:

WE HAD NO INDICATION ABSOLUTELY THAT THAT WAS THE FEMALE VICTIM.

233 Q:

DID YOU CHALLENGE MR. PHILLIPS IN ANY WAY WHEN HE TOLD YOU SHE WAS DEAD?

234 A:

THERE WAS NO CHALLENGE INVOLVED, SIR.

235 Q:

DID YOU QUESTION HIS ASSERTION AS TO HER IDENTITY?

236 A:

NO.

237 Q:

DID YOU EVER QUESTION HIM?

238 A:

I DON'T THINK I WOULD HAVE JUMPED TO THE CONCLUSION EARLY INTO THE INVESTIGATION.

239 Q:

YOU WOULDN'T HAVE JUMPED TO THE CONCLUSION OF THE IDENTITY OF THE VICTIM, EVEN THOUGH A DETECTIVE WHO WAS YOUR BOSS TOLD YOU WHAT IT WAS?

240 A:

I DIDN'T QUESTION IT.

241 Q:

OKAY. FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, WHAT EFFORTS, IF YOU KNOW, WERE MADE TO DETERMINE MR. GOLDMAN'S IDENTITY SO THAT HIS NEXT OF KIN COULD BE NOTIFIED?

242 A:

I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT.

243 Q:

YOU WERE NOT INVOLVED IN THAT EFFORT?

244 A:

NO, SIR.

245 Q:

DID YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH NOTICE TO THE BROWN FAMILY --

246 A:

NO, SIR.

247 Q:

-- ABOUT THEIR DAUGHTER? WHEN DID YOU TELL US YESTERDAY THAT YOU LEARNED WHERE YOU WERE GOING ON THE TRIP TO ROCKINGHAM? WAS IT WHEN YOU WERE IN THE CAR WITH PHILLIPS THAT HE TOLD YOU?

248 A:

THERE WAS SOME CONVERSATION IF I KNEW THE WAY UP THERE.

249 Q:

WITH WHOM?

250 A:

I'M SORRY?

251 Q:

PHILLIPS?

252 A:

YES, SIR.

253 Q:

OKAY. BUT WERE YOU ALREADY IN THE CAR?

254 A:

WHEN WE KNEW THE PURPOSE? YES.

255 Q:

OKAY. WELL, WERE YOU IN THE CAR WHEN YOU KNEW WHERE YOU WERE GOING?

256 A:

I THINK IT WAS SOMEWHAT SIMULTANEOUS WITH GETTING BACK TO THE FRONT OF THE LOCATION AND TALKING TO DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, VANNATTER AND LANGE DIRECTING US TO TAKE US UP THERE, OR SOMETHING TO THAT EFFECT. I GOT IN THE CAR WITH DETECTIVE PHILLIPS AND IT WAS DISCUSSED THEN.

257 Q:

HAD YOU DISCLOSED TO EITHER -- ANY OF THE THREE DETECTIVES, AS OF THE POINT YOU LEFT FOR ROCKINGHAM, YOUR PRIOR INVOLVEMENT WITH THE SIMPSONS?

258 A:

YES.

259 Q:

TO WHOM DID YOU DESCRIBE IT AND WHEN?

260 A:

DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.

261 Q:

WHEN?

262 A:

DETECTIVE PHILLIPS ASKED ME IF I KNEW HOW TO GET TO THE SIMPSON HOUSE OR THE ROCKINGHAM HOUSE.

263 Q:

THAT WAS AT 5:00 IN THE MORNING OR AFTER?

264 A:

I THINK IT WAS A LITTLE BEFORE THAT.

265 Q:

THAT YOU ACTUALLY LEFT FOR ROCKINGHAM, BEFORE 5:00?

266 A:

NO. WE LEFT AT 5:00. YOU ARE ASKING ME WHAT TIME THE CONVERSATION TOOK PLACE.

267 Q:

OH. SLIGHTLY BEFORE 5:00 YOU HAD DISCLOSED TO HIM YOU HAD PRIOR INVOLVEMENT?

268 A:

I SAID I HAD BEEN ON A RADIO CALL THERE A LONG TIME AGO.

269 Q:

UP TO THAT POINT YOU SAID NOTHING ABOUT THAT PRIOR INVOLVEMENT?

270 A:

NO.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

F. Lee Bailey
HOW DID YOU KNOW AT THAT JUNCTURE, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, THAT THERE WAS OR WOULD BE BLOOD IN THE BRONCO?
Bailey catches Fuhrman having used the word 'in' in prior testimony, implying knowledge of blood inside the vehicle before it had been opened — a potential indicator of planted evidence.
Mark Fuhrman
I DIDN'T.
Fuhrman's flat denial that he knew about blood in the Bronco at that moment directly undercuts the 'in' language from his own prior testimony, leaving the inconsistency unresolved.
Mark Fuhrman
I MOVED FORWARD INSTEAD OF BACKWARD.
Fuhrman's explanation for his 'precaution' after discovering the glove — moving toward possible danger rather than away — struck observers as counterintuitive and potentially rehearsed.
Mark Fuhrman
"THEM," I WAS REFERRING TO THE KNIT CAP, THE GLOVE.
Bailey exposes that neither the prior page nor the current page of transcript mention the knit cap, suggesting Fuhrman's use of 'them' implied knowledge of multiple items before they were formally discovered.
Mark Fuhrman
I'M NOT SURE I DID.
Fuhrman's evasive response to being shown his own transcript — refusing to accept that he said 'in' the Bronco — illustrates Bailey's core impeachment strategy: using Fuhrman's own words against him.

Evidence (5)

null
Preliminary hearing transcript (July 5-6, 1994) — specific pages 31, 41, 46, 48, 54, 63, 64, 65 referenced throughout
used to impeach Fuhrman with prior inconsistent statements
D (preliminary hearing)
Photo of the Rockingham glove at location where Fuhrman found it
discussed in context of Fuhrman's prior testimony about glove discovery
A (preliminary hearing)
Photo showing air conditioning duct on the Rockingham walkway
referenced to establish Fuhrman's path after discovering the glove
null
Blood marks on the Bronco door sill
discussed to establish when Fuhrman first observed them and whether the door was ever opened in his presence
null
Videotape of preliminary hearing testimony
referenced by Bailey as a means to resolve whether Fuhrman said 'in' the Bronco; never reviewed by Fuhrman

Notable Exchanges (4)

F. Lee BaileyMark Fuhrman
Bailey methodically presses Fuhrman on his use of the word 'in' (blood 'in' the Bronco) from preliminary hearing testimony, while Fuhrman repeatedly insists he is 'not sure' he used that word. Bailey raises the existence of a videotape of the testimony to resolve the dispute, leaving the question hanging.
strategic
F. Lee BaileyMark Fuhrman
Bailey confronts Fuhrman with his use of 'them' when referring to what should have been a single glove, forcing Fuhrman to claim he meant the knit cap — yet neither page of the transcript mentions a knit cap at that point.
revealing
F. Lee BaileyMark Fuhrman
Bailey challenges Fuhrman's claim that moving forward toward potential danger was a 'precaution,' and then springs the logic trap: if the suspect fled past the spiderwebs, they likely went back the way they came — meaning Fuhrman already had no one ahead of him.
strategic
F. Lee BaileyMark Fuhrman
Bailey questions why Fuhrman failed to check the second floor of the Simpson home after declaring there might be 'people bleeding to death inside,' exposing a gap between Fuhrman's stated concern and his actual actions.
pointed

Light Moments (1)

Lance A. Ito
Judge Ito interrupts Bailey mid-questioning to allow the court reporter to change her paper tape.

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ Mark Fuhrman
prior inconsistent statement
Bailey uses Fuhrman's July 1995 preliminary hearing testimony to show he said blood was 'in' the Bronco before the vehicle was opened — potentially indicating inside knowledge inconsistent with his trial account.
⚔ Mark Fuhrman
prior inconsistent statement
Fuhrman used the plural 'them' when the only item mentioned in surrounding transcript pages was a single glove; his explanation that he meant the knit cap is undermined by the absence of any knit cap reference on nearby pages.
⚔ Mark Fuhrman
prior inconsistent statement
Fuhrman's answer 'not at that time, no' to whether he picked up the glove implied he did so later, but no other transcript reference explains this — Bailey argues Fuhrman turned the glove with a pen but never disclosed that in context.
⚔ Mark Fuhrman
omission / conduct inconsistent with stated concern
Fuhrman declared an emergency about possible victims on the second floor of the Simpson home, yet never went upstairs and cannot confirm whether any detective did — undermining the sincerity of the stated emergency as the basis for warrantless entry.

Witness Demeanor

(WITNESS COMPLIES.) — repeated several times as Fuhrman turns to transcript pages on cue
(NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE.) — when Bailey asks if Fuhrman was looking for the person who dropped the glove

Objections

8 objections (1 sustained, 7 overruled)
Proceeding 5276 • 270 utterances • Prosecution witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 MAR 14, 1995 📄 Cross-examination of Mark Fuhr
MAR 14, 1995 KRT DvH TD