Cross-examination of Mark Fuhrman (afternoon, part 2)

📄 Cross-examination of Mark Fuhrman (afternoon, part 2) — Tuesday, March 14, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\MAR\14\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-MARK-FUHR.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 37 of 167

◀ Sidebar: witness preparation Off-record discussion ▶

Witness: Det. Mark Fuhrman
Examiner: F. Lee Bailey
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Tuesday, March 14, 1995 • Utterances: 204

F. Lee Bailey cross-examines Detective Mark Fuhrman about allegations made by Kathleen Bell and Andrea Terry that Fuhrman made overtly racist statements at a Marine Corps recruiting station in Redondo Beach in 1985-86. Bailey methodically walks Fuhrman through the Bell letter (People's 102), having him deny each specific allegation — including that he said he would pull over Black men driving with white women and that he wished to see 'all niggers gathered together and killed.' Bailey also probes the pre-trial mock cross-examination sessions Fuhrman had with prosecutors, establishing that those sessions were focused on preparing for the Bell problem.

# 1

MR. BAILEY: ALL RIGHT. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

# 2 THE COURT:

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, I NEED TO EXAMINE SOMETHING OUT OF YOUR PRESENCE. THIS WILL TAKE ABOUT FIVE OR 10 MINUTES. I'M GOING TO ASK YOU TO STEP BACK IN THE JURY ROOM, PLEASE, AND WE'LL BUZZ YOU OUT. JUST LONG ENOUGH FOR A COMFORT BREAK THERE. DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, STAY THERE. DON'T GO AWAY.

# 3 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, OUT OF THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

# 4 THE COURT:

LET THE RECORD REFLECT THAT THE JURY HAS WITHDRAWN FROM THE COURTROOM. ALL PARTIES ARE PRESENT. DETECTIVE FUHRMAN IS STILL ON THE STAND. MR. BAILEY, THE QUESTION YOU ASKED WAS WHAT IRRELEVANT EVIDENCE WAS GOING TO BE BROUGHT INTO THE TRIAL THAT YOU WERE PREPARING FOR; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 5 MR. BAILEY:

YES. AND MAY I RESPECTFULLY POINT OUT, YOUR HONOR, THAT THAT QUESTION WAS TRIGGERED BY THE WITNESS' PRIOR ANSWER THAT THE PREPARATION WAS CONNECTED WITH IRRELEVANT MATERIAL THAT HE HEARD OFFERED IN COURT.

KEY QUOTE

# 6 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. COURTS ARE ALWAYS LEERY OF THINGS THAT ARE IRRELEVANT.

# 7 MR. BAILEY:

WHEN DECIDED BY WITNESSES THAT THEY ARE IRRELEVANT.

# 8 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. LET'S SEE WHAT THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION IS GOING TO BE.

# 9 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WHAT EVENT DID YOU HAVE IN MIND WHEN YOU SPOKE OF IRRELEVANT OCCURRENCES THAT YOU FEARED MIGHT BE BROUGHT INTO COURT?

# 10 A:

KATHLEEN BELL.

# 11 Q:

ALL RIGHT. AND YOU SAY THAT THAT'S IRRELEVANT?

# 12 A:

YES.

# 13 Q:

EVEN THOUGH YOU KNEW THAT THE JUDGE RULED THAT IT COULD BE RELEVANT; DID YOU NOT?

# 14 MS. CLARK:

WELL, OBJECTION. THAT WAS NOT --

# 15 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. NO. I'M JUST -- MR. BAILEY, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN THIS OTHER BUSINESS. I'M INTERESTED IN WHAT IRRELEVANT INSTANCE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. THE REST OF IT WILL COME LATER.

KEY QUOTE

# 16 MR. BAILEY:

OKAY.

# 17 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: DID THIS FEAR STRIKE YOU BEFORE OR AFTER YOU READ ABOUT CERTAIN RULINGS BY THE COURT?

# 18 THE COURT:

WAIT, WAIT. MR. BAILEY, THE ONLY THING I'M INTERESTED IN IS, WHAT IRRELEVANT -- WHAT ITEMS, WHAT ISSUES, WHAT EVENTS DETECTIVE FUHRMAN THOUGHT WERE IRRELEVANT THAT HE WAS PREPARED FOR.

# 19 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION AS FRAMED BY THE COURT?

# 20 A:

YES, SIR.

# 21 Q:

CAN YOU ANSWER?

# 22 A:

YES. STILL KATHLEEN BELL.

KEY QUOTE

# 23 Q:

HAD YOU ANY CONCERN ABOUT ANY OTHER INDIVIDUALS UNDER THE UMBRELLA OF IRRELEVANT THAT MIGHT FIND THEIR WAY TO THE TRIAL?

# 24 A:

NO.

# 25 THE COURT:

OKAY. THAT'S WHAT I WAS AFRAID, THAT WE WERE GOING TO GET SOMETHING BEYOND KATHLEEN BELL. APPARENTLY NOT. THAT'S AN ISSUE THAT WE'RE FAMILIAR WITH, THE JURY IS FAMILIAR WITH. ANYTHING ELSE? I TOLD THE JURY I WOULD GIVE THEM ENOUGH OF A COMFORT BREAK. DEPUTY, WHY DON'T YOU CHECK AND SEE IF THEY'RE READY.

# 26 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 27 THE DEPUTY:

YOUR HONOR, THEY NEED A FEW MORE MINUTES.

# 28 THE COURT:

OKAY. GO AHEAD AND TAKE A STRETCH IF YOU LIKE. ALL RIGHT. LET'S KEEP IT QUIET IN THE COURTROOM. WE'RE GOING TO AWAIT THE JURY'S AVAILABILITY. BUT GO AHEAD AND STAND AND STRETCH IF YOU LIKE. JUDGE GODFREY, WELCOME. I SEE WE HAVE SISTERS IN CRIME WITH US.

# 29 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 30

THE COURT: LET'S HAVE THE JURORS, PLEASE. (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE JURY:)

# 31 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED. LET THE RECORD REFLECT WE'VE BEEN REJOINED BY ALL THE MEMBERS OF OUR JURY PANEL. MR. BAILEY, YOU MAY CONTINUE.

# 32 MR. BAILEY:

THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 33 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, WHEN YOU SAID EARLIER THAT YOU WERE CONCERNED ABOUT MATTERS THAT YOU VIEWED AS IRRELEVANT, WOULD YOU TELL THE COURT SPECIFICALLY WHICH PERSON YOU HAD IN MIND, WHICH INCIDENT?

# 34 A:

YES. KATHLEEN BELL.

# 35 Q:

OKAY. NOW, ARE YOU TELLING US THEN AND DID YOU KNOW PRIOR TO THIS TRIAL ANY OTHER CLAIMS THAT WERE MADE AGAINST YOU OF A TYPE SIMILAR TO KATHLEEN BELL PRIOR TO TAKING THE WITNESS STAND?

# 36 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION.

# 37 THE COURT:

WHAT'S THE OBJECTION?

# 38 MS. CLARK:

HEARSAY, IRRELEVANT.

# 39 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. YOU CAN ANSWER THAT QUESTION YES OR NO.

KEY QUOTE

# 40 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: JUST YES OR NO IS ALL I WANT.

# 41 A:

YES.

# 42 Q:

YOU DID. OKAY. BUT WAS KATHLEEN BELL THE FOCUS OF YOUR CONCERN?

# 43 A:

YES.

# 44 Q:

AND WERE THE QUESTIONS THAT WERE PUT TO YOU BY TWO PROSECUTORS FOCUSED ON THE KATHLEEN BELL PROBLEM?

# 45 A:

YES, I BELIEVE SO.

# 46 Q:

TWO OF THESE PROSECUTORS PROSECUTED RODNEY KING, DIDN'T THEY?

# 47 A:

I DID NOT KNOW THAT UNTIL I WAS TOLD.

# 48 Q:

YOU DID NOT KNOW THAT?

# 49 THE COURT:

WAIT, WAIT, WAIT. LET HIM FINISH THE ANSWER, MR. BAILEY.

# 50 MR. BAILEY:

SORRY, YOUR HONOR.

# 51 DET. MARK FUHRMAN:

I HAD KNOWN THAT TERRY WHITE WAS, BUT I DIDN'T RECOGNIZE MR. YOCHELSON'S NAME.

# 52 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: ALL RIGHT. IN ANY EVENT, THAT WAS THE PURPOSE OF THE EXERCISE, THE BELL PROBLEM, AND YOU DID NOT FEEL THAT IT WAS PRODUCTIVE, CORRECT?

# 53 A:

I DIDN'T FEEL THAT IT WAS REALLY A USEFUL EXERCISE, NO.

KEY QUOTE

# 54 Q:

OKAY. AND YOU STILL DON'T KNOW WHAT THEIR OBJECTIVE WAS IN DOING THIS; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 55 A:

WELL, I ASSUMED IT WAS PREPARATION.

# 56 Q:

PREPARATION FOR WHAT?

# 57 A:

CROSS-EXAMINATION, SIR.

# 58 Q:

ABOUT KATHLEEN BELL?

# 59 A:

YES.

# 60 Q:

ABOUT CERTAIN LANGUAGE THAT SOME FIND OFFENSIVE?

# 61 A:

YES.

# 62 Q:

OKAY. AND YOUR CONCERN ABOUT THAT THEN IS WHAT LED TO THIS TRIPARTITE SIMULATED CROSS-EXAMINATION, CORRECT?

# 63 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION.

# 64 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. CALLS FOR FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE. IT'S SPECULATION AS WELL.

# 65 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: THREE-LAWYER CROSS-EXAMINATION IN THE GRAND JURY ROOM, CORRECT?

# 66 A:

YES.

# 67 Q:

DO YOU RECALL ON THURSDAY WHEN YOU TOOK THE STAND THAT ALMOST IMMEDIATELY AT THE OUTSET OF YOUR TESTIMONY, MISS CLARK DISPLAYED FOR YOU A PART OF A COPY OF A LETTER THAT HAD BEEN SENT BY KATHLEEN BELL TO JOHNNIE COCHRAN SOMETIME IN 1994?

# 68 A:

YES, I DO.

# 69 Q:

HAD YOU EVER LOOKED AT THE ENTIRE LETTER RATHER THAN JUST THAT PART?

# 70 A:

NO, SIR.

# 71 Q:

HAD YOU EVER SEEN THAT LETTER BEFORE YOU CAME INTO THIS COURTROOM?

# 72 A:

NO.

# 73 Q:

HAD YOU EVER REVIEWED ITS CONTENTS WITH ANYONE BEFORE YOU CAME INTO THIS COURTROOM?

# 74 A:

NO.

# 75 Q:

DID YOU HAVE ANY IDEA THAT MISS CLARK WAS GOING TO BEGIN YOUR TESTIMONY BY THROWING THE BELL LETTER UP ON THE SCREEN?

# 76 A:

I KNEW THE CONTENTS, BUT I HAD NEVER READ THE LETTER.

# 77 Q:

NO. DID YOU HAVE ANY IDEA THAT YOUR TESTIMONY WOULD BEGIN BY PUTTING THE ACCUSATIONS OF KATHLEEN BELL UP ON THE SCREEN?

KEY QUOTE

# 78 A:

NO, I DIDN'T.

# 79 Q:

WAS THAT A SURPRISE TO YOU WHEN SHE DID THAT?

# 80 A:

THE LETTER, YES.

# 81 Q:

WAS IT A SURPRISE TO YOU WHEN SHE DEVELOPED IN YOUR TESTIMONY THAT YOU HAD HAD SOME PRACTICE SESSIONS SOMEWHERE?

# 82 A:

THAT WASN'T A SURPRISE, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW HOW IT WOULD BE PHRASED.

# 83 MR. BAILEY:

OKAY. NOW, YOUR HONOR, I HAVE 102, PEOPLE'S 102 I GUESS IT IS. JUST START AT THE TOP OF THE ELMO, MR. HARRIS.

# 84 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: AND TELL ME --

# 85 MR. BAILEY:

RIGHT AT THE TOP OF THE LETTER. TOP OF THE LETTER.

# 86 THE COURT:

WHAT ARE THESE ITEMS THAT ARE ON THERE, MR. HARRIS?

# 87 MR. HARRIS:

REDACTED COPY OF TELEPHONE.

# 88 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 89 MR. BAILEY:

YOUR HONOR VOICED CONCERN ABOUT A CERTAIN SUBJECT.

# 90 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 91 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: ALL RIGHT. RIGHT AT THE TOP THERE, BEGINS, "DEAR MR. COCHRAN." ALL RIGHT. MY UNDERSTANDING IS, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, YOU HAVE NEVER HELD IN YOUR HAND A PIECE OF PAPER ON WHICH THESE WORDS ARE WRITTEN. YOU'VE ONLY DISCUSSED IT.

# 92 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 93 Q:

NOW, YOU'LL NOTICE IN THE SECOND PHOTOGRAPH IT SAYS THAT THE AUTHOR GLANCED UP AT THE TELEVISION AND WAS QUITE SHOCKED TO SEE "THAT OFFICER FUHRMAN WAS A MAN THAT I HAD THE MISFORTUNE OF MEETING." YOU WERE ON TELEVISION PRIOR TO THIS SUMMER IN CONNECTION WITH THIS CASE; WERE YOU NOT?

# 94 A:

YES.

# 95 Q:

AND YOUR TESTIMONY AS A WITNESS YOU LEARNED WAS QUITE WIDELY WATCHED IN THIS STATE AND OTHERS; DID YOU NOT?

# 96 A:

YES.

# 97 Q:

OKAY. YOU NOTICE THAT THE AUTHOR SAYS THAT SHE HAS LEFT A MESSAGE ON MR. COCHRAN'S ANSWERING SERVICE?

# 98 A:

YES.

# 99 MR. BAILEY:

OKAY. NEXT PARAGRAPH, MR. HARRIS.

# 100 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: BETWEEN 1985 AND 1986, SHE SAYS SHE WORKED AS A REAL ESTATE AGENT IN REDONDO BEACH FOR CENTURY 21, BOB MAHER REALTY, NOW OUT OF BUSINESS. NUMBER ONE, WHEN YOU WERE AT THE RECRUITING STATION, DID YOU BECOME ACQUAINTED WITH A CENTURY 21 REAL ESTATE OFFICE LOCATED APPROXIMATE TO THE RECRUITING STATION?

# 101 A:

DID I BECOME --

# 102 Q:

FAMILIAR WITH THE FACT THAT THERE WAS SUCH AN OFFICE?

# 103 A:

I THINK THERE WAS ONE ON THE SECOND FLOOR, YES.

KEY QUOTE

# 104 Q:

DID YOU HAVE TO GO THROUGH THE OFFICE TO GET TO IT OR WAS THERE SEPARATE STAIRS?

# 105 A:

I DON'T REMEMBER THAT AT ALL.

# 106 Q:

WAS THERE A COFFEE SHOP CLOSE BY TO THESE TWO OFFICES?

# 107 A:

A COPY SHOP IN THAT SMALL SHOPPING AREA?

# 108 Q:

YEAH.

# 109 A:

NOT THAT I REMEMBER, NO.

KEY QUOTE

# 110 Q:

YOU DON'T. OKAY. DID YOU EVER DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT IN 1985 AND -6 A KATHLEEN BELL HAD BEEN EMPLOYED AT THE OFFICE DESCRIBED IN THE LETTER?

# 111 A:

CONFIRMED THAT SHE HAD BEEN EMPLOYED THERE?

# 112 Q:

YEAH.

# 113 A:

I NEVER KNEW A KATHLEEN BELL, BUT NO.

KEY QUOTE

# 114 Q:

NO. DID YOU EVER MAKE INQUIRY AFTER YOU LEARNED OF THIS LETTER TO FIND OUT WHETHER THERE WAS A KATHLEEN BELL EMPLOYED AS SHE SAYS AT THAT TIME, AT THE CENTURY 21 OFFICE?

KEY QUOTE

# 115 A:

I DID NOT.

# 116 Q:

DID YOU CAUSE YOUR LAWYER, MR. TOURTELOT, TO DO THAT?

# 117 A:

NO, I DIDN'T.

# 118 Q:

AND DID YOU CAUSE YOUR INVESTIGATOR MR. PELLI-CANO TO DO THAT?

# 119 A:

NO.

# 120 THE COURT:

COUNSEL, YOU KNOW THAT -- IT'S PELICANO. YOU KNOW HOW IT'S --

KEY QUOTE

# 121 MR. BAILEY:

PELICANO?

# 122 THE COURT:

WE ALL KNOW HOW IT'S PRONOUNCED.

# 123 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: DID YOU CAUSE HIM TO DO THAT?

# 124 A:

NO.

# 125 Q:

OKAY. TO THIS DAY, DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT THAT PART OF THE CLAIM IS TRUTHFUL; THAT SHE WORKED AT CENTURY 21 IN '85 AND '86?

# 126 A:

YES. I KNOW THAT SHE DOES OR DID. I AM SORRY.

KEY QUOTE

# 127 Q:

DID YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT SHE WAS KNOWN TO THE MARINES THAT YOU MET WHEN YOU WENT TO THE RECRUITING STATION ON SEVERAL OCCASIONS?

# 128 A:

THEN OR NOW?

# 129 Q:

DO YOU NOW KNOW?

# 130 A:

YES.

# 131 Q:

AND THE FACT IS, SHE WAS KNOWN TO THEM, CORRECT?

# 132 A:

YES.

# 133 Q:

ALL RIGHT.

# 134 MS. CLARK:

WELL, OBJECTION. THAT'S HEARSAY. NO PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE.

# 135 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 136 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: AND YOU SAY ON ONE OCCASION, A WOMAN WHOSE DESCRIPTION YOU CAN NOT DREDGE UP IN ANY DETAIL MAY HAVE BEEN IN THE OFFICE AND YOU'RE UNABLE TO SAY WHETHER OR NOT THAT WAS OR WAS NOT KATHLEEN BELL; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 137 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 138 Q:

ALL RIGHT. NEXT PARAGRAPH. AT THE TOP, PLEASE. IN 1985 OR '86, WERE YOU A POLICE OFFICER IN WESTWOOD?

# 139 A:

I WORKED THE FOOT BEAT, YES, IN WESTWOOD, YES.

KEY QUOTE

# 140 Q:

SO THAT IF SHE HEARD YOU SAY THAT, THAT WAS THE TRUTH, CORRECT?

# 141 MS. CLARK:

WELL, OBJECTION. THAT'S COMPOUND AND SPECULATION AND HEARSAY.

# 142 THE COURT:

SPECULATION. SUSTAINED.

# 143 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: ALL RIGHT. WERE YOU A PERSON WHO WHILE IN THE MARINE CORPS HAD BEEN IN SOME KIND OF SPECIAL DIVISION?

# 144 A:

NO.

# 145 Q:

ALL RIGHT. DID YOU SERVE IN VIETNAM AT ALL?

# 146 A:

NOT IN COUNTRY, NO.

# 147 Q:

NOT IN COUNTRY.

# 148 A:

I WAS ON A SHIP.

# 149 Q:

OKAY. IT WAS CALLED BEING STATIONED IN VIETNAM, RIGHT?

# 150 A:

YES, SIR.

# 151 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU SAY WHILE IN THE RECRUITING STATION AT ANY TIME DURING THOSE YEARS THAT WHEN YOU SEE A NIGGER DRIVING WITH A WHITE WOMAN, YOU PULL THEM OVER?

# 152 A:

NO.

# 153 Q:

DO YOU RECALL ANYONE ASKING YOU IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE A REASON TO PULL THEM OVER, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

# 154 A:

I DON'T RECALL ANYBODY EVER ASKING ME THAT QUESTION, SIR.

# 155 Q:

DID YOU EVER MAKE A STATEMENT THAT IF YOU NEEDED A REASON, YOU WOULD FIND ONE?

# 156 A:

NO.

# 157 Q:

OKAY. NEXT PARAGRAPH. DID YOU SAY AT ANY TIME IN THAT RECRUITING STATION IN THE PRESENCE OF ANY FEMALE INCLUDING KATHLEEN BELL THAT YOU'D LIKE NOTHING MORE THAN TO SEE ALL NIGGERS GATHERED TOGETHER AND KILLED?

# 158 A:

NO.

# 159 Q:

ALL RIGHT. ARE YOU AWARE, BOTTOM OF THE PAGE, OF ANY COMPLAINT THAT WAS BROUGHT TO THE LAPD BY THIS INDIVIDUAL?

# 160 A:

I'M NOT AWARE OF ANY INVESTIGATION, NO.

KEY QUOTE

# 161 Q:

OKAY. BUT YOU ARE AWARE THAT SHE HAS APPEARED ON PUBLIC TELEVISION AND MADE ESSENTIALLY THE SAME CLAIMS, CORRECT?

# 162 A:

YES.

# 163 Q:

HAVE YOU STARTED ANY LAWSUITS AGAINST HER?

# 164 A:

NO.

# 165 Q:

HAVE YOU BROUGHT CLAIM AGAINST HER FOR DEFAMATION?

# 166 A:

NO.

# 167 Q:

I SEE. ALL RIGHT. NOW, YOU TOLD US YESTERDAY THAT YOU DO NOT KNOW, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, AN ANDREA TERRY.

# 168 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 169 Q:

CAN YOU RECALL AT ANY TIME A BLOND WOMAN SUGGESTING THAT SHE HAD AN ATTRACTIVE BUT TALL FRIEND?

# 170 A:

NO.

# 171 Q:

DO YOU RECALL AT ANY TIME IN THE PRESENCE OF JOE FOSS BEING ASKED BY A WOMAN IF YOU WERE INTERESTED IN A DATE?

# 172 A:

NO.

# 173 Q:

NEVER HAPPENED THAT YOU CAN RECALL?

# 174 A:

NO.

# 175 Q:

IS IT THE KIND OF THING THAT YOU WOULD REMEMBER IF IT HAD OCCURRED, BEING ASKED FOR A DATE IN THE PRESENCE OF JOE FOSS?

# 176 A:

I THINK IN THE PRESENCE OF ANYBODY, IF I WAS INTERESTED IN A WOMAN OR IT WENT FARTHER THAN THAT, I THINK I WOULD PROBABLY REMEMBER IT.

# 177 Q:

LET'S ASSUME YOU WEREN'T INTERESTED, SAID "HEY, YOU'RE NOT MY TYPE," BRUSHED HER OFF. WOULD YOU REMEMBER BEING INVITED ON A DATE IF IT HAD HAPPENED?

# 178 A:

I WOULD SAY NOT.

# 179 Q:

OKAY. WOULD YOU REMEMBER, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, IF YOU HAD USED THE LANGUAGE THAT WE HAVE JUST REVIEWED?

# 180 A:

YES.

# 181 Q:

THAT IS IMPORTANT ENOUGH LANGUAGE TO YOU SO THAT IT WOULD IMPRESS ITSELF ON YOUR MEMORY AS DID THE MEETING WITH THE SIMPSON'S IN '85; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 182 A:

YES, SIR.

# 183 Q:

OKAY. YOU TOLD US YESTERDAY THAT YOU DO GO INTO HENNESSEY'S TAVERN?

# 184 A:

YES, SIR.

# 185 Q:

YOU DO NOT HAVE A RECOLLECTION OF THE NAME ANDREA TERRY BEING THERE?

# 186 MS. CLARK:

CAN WE TAKE THIS OFF THE SCREEN?

# 187 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. WE'RE ON ANDREA TERRY NOW?

# 188 MR. BAILEY:

YES.

# 189 THE COURT:

MR. HARRIS.

# 190 MS. CLARK:

THANK YOU.

# 191 Q:

BY MR. BAILEY: YOU DON'T REMEMBER THE NAME ANDREA TERRY, A WOMAN OVER SIX FEET HIGH OR A WOMAN IN THE COMPANY OF SOMEONE YOU NOW KNOW TO BE KATHLEEN BELL?

# 192 A:

NO, I DO NOT.

# 193 Q:

DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION IN '85 AND '86 IN HENNESSEY'S TAVERN WITH A TALL WOMAN WHEREIN YOU SAID THAT BLACK MEN WHO HAVE WHITE WOMEN IN THEIR COMPANY ARE VIOLATING AN ACT OF NATURE?

# 194 A:

NO.

# 195 Q:

AND THAT YOU WOULD ARREST THEM WHENEVER YOU SAW THAT OCCUR?

# 196 A:

NO.

# 197 Q:

THAT DID NOT OCCUR AT ANY TIME?

# 198 A:

NO.

# 199 Q:

AND IS THAT THE KIND OF LANGUAGE OR EXPRESSION, DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, THAT YOU WOULD REMEMBER CLEARLY IF THOSE STATEMENTS HAD BEEN MADE?

# 200 A:

YES.

# 201 Q:

SO AS OF THE MOMENT, YOU WOULD SAY THAT IF EITHER KATHLEEN BELL OR ANDREA TERRY CLAIMS THAT YOU MADE THOSE STATEMENTS, THAT WOULD NECESSARILY BE FALSE?

# 202 A:

YES.

# 203 Q:

AND THAT IF JOE FOSS, THE MARINE, SAYS THAT HE IN FACT INTRODUCED YOU TO KATHLEEN BELL OUTSIDE THE RECRUITING STATION AS SHE EMERGED FROM THE COFFEE SHOP AND THAT THE TWO OF YOU TALKED ABOUT A DATE, THAT WOULD NECESSARILY BE FALSE?

# 204 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Mark Fuhrman

NO. STILL KATHLEEN BELL.

Fuhrman identifies Kathleen Bell as the sole 'irrelevant' matter he feared being raised at trial — establishing that he anticipated her allegations and prepared for them specifically.

Mark Fuhrman

YES. STILL KATHLEEN BELL.

Repeated under jury presence, cementing that Fuhrman's pre-trial anxiety centered entirely on Bell's accusations of racist language.

Mark Fuhrman

NO.

Fuhrman's flat denial when asked: 'Did you say while in the recruiting station at any time during those years that when you see a nigger driving with a white woman, you pull them over?' — a denial Bailey positions as necessarily false if Bell, Terry, or Foss testify.

Mark Fuhrman

YES.

Fuhrman admits he knew prior to testifying about other claims against him similar to Kathleen Bell's — revealing the Bell problem was not isolated and that prosecutors coached him on it.

Mark Fuhrman

THAT'S CORRECT.

Fuhrman agrees that if Bell, Terry, or Joe Foss corroborate each other's accounts, those accounts 'would necessarily be false' — Bailey is setting up the impeachment witnesses.

Evidence (1)

People's 102

Kathleen Bell's letter to Johnnie Cochran (redacted), in which Bell describes meeting Fuhrman at a Marine recruiting station in Redondo Beach circa 1985-86 and alleges he made racist statements about Black men with white women

Displayed on ELMO, read paragraph by paragraph during cross-examination

Notable Exchanges (3)

F. Lee Bailey•Mark Fuhrman

Bailey walks Fuhrman through each specific allegation in the Bell letter — the recruiting station, Century 21 office, coffee shop, the racial statements — and extracts flat denials, positioning those denials to be later contradicted by Bell, Terry, and Foss.

strategic

Lance A. Ito•F. Lee Bailey•Mark Fuhrman

Out of jury presence, the judge probes what 'irrelevant' matter Fuhrman feared coming up at trial. Fuhrman twice names Kathleen Bell and only Bell. Ito seems relieved there is nothing beyond Bell.

procedural

F. Lee Bailey•Mark Fuhrman

Bailey establishes that Fuhrman never investigated Bell's claims — never asked his lawyer Tourtelot or investigator Pelicano to verify whether Bell actually worked at Century 21 in 1985-86 — yet now knows she did.

revealing

Light Moments (2)

Lance A. Ito

Judge Ito, spotting a visiting judge during the break, says: 'JUDGE GODFREY, WELCOME. I SEE WE HAVE SISTERS IN CRIME WITH US.'

Lance A. Ito

Bailey mispronounces investigator Anthony Pelicano's name as 'Pelli-cano'; Ito corrects him — 'It's Pelicano. We all know how it's pronounced.'

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Mark Fuhrman

Prior bad acts / character impeachment via third-party witnesses

Bailey confronts Fuhrman with Kathleen Bell's letter alleging Fuhrman made racist statements about Black men with white women at a Marine recruiting station in 1985-86, and elicits flat denials — setting up Bell, Andrea Terry, and Marine Joe Foss as impeachment witnesses who will contradict him.

⚔ Mark Fuhrman

Bias / consciousness of guilt

Bailey establishes that Fuhrman underwent a mock cross-examination by three lawyers specifically to prepare for the Bell allegations, suggesting both awareness of the problem and deliberate preparation to minimize it — while never actually investigating whether Bell's factual claims were true.

Objections

5 objections (2 sustained, 3 overruled)

Proceeding 5283 • 204 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103