📄 Direct examination of Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran (morning, part 3) — Wednesday, June 14, 1995
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUN\14\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-DR-LAKSH.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 95 of 167

Direct examination of Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran (morning, part 3)

Witness: Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran
Examiner: Brian Kelberg
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Wednesday, June 14, 1995 • Utterances: 337
Dr. Lakshmanan continues his direct examination with prosecutor Kelberg, systematically defusing the defense's Siglar letter critiques of autopsy procedures (items 11-16), then addressing the failure to collect blood drops from Nicole Brown Simpson's back at the crime scene. The bulk of the session establishes the foundation for time of death testimony, including the six-and-a-half-hour delay in LAPD notifying the Coroner's office, and extensive citation of forensic pathology literature to explain why time of death can only be expressed as a range — not a precise moment.
1 THE COURT:

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. All right. Let the record reflect we've been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. And, Mr. Kelberg, you may conclude your direct examination.

2 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor--if Mr. Fairtlough can bring back exhibit 365--we're on page 2, I believe we're on item 11. And does that refer to what we were discussing yesterday? And we also discussed it with respect to the Nicole Brown Simpson autopsy of the initial request for an H screen and your decision to order a C screen, toxicological screen in each of those cases?

3 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

4 MR. KELBERG:

Is there anything else to add to that?

5 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

No.

6 MR. KELBERG:

Item 12, did you discuss earlier in your testimony regarding flouroscopy as a form of x-ray?

7 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

8 MR. KELBERG:

And have you discussed what was or was not done in the form of x-ray?

9 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, I have.

10 MR. KELBERG:

And, doctor, in your opinion, would flouroscopy have been desirable in this case as Mr. Siglar's letter indicates?

11 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

No. I think in stab wound cases, x-rays are better because if at all there are going to be any fragments of the knife, it's better seen on an x-ray than fluoroscopy. But sometimes flouroscopy can help. But I would prefer to have an x-ray of an area because even if the fluoroscope doesn't show it sometimes, you'll see it on the x-ray because flouroscopy doesn't have the resolution, fine resolution of an x-ray.

KEY QUOTE
12 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, did you also testify, however, that no x-rays were taken, for example, of the skulls of either victim?

13 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

That's correct.

14 MR. KELBERG:

And we asked you questions about whether in your opinion there was any indication that the blade of the knife had broken off in the course of any of the infliction of the sharp force injuries. Do you recall that?

15 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, I do.

16 MR. KELBERG:

In your opinion, is there any evidence to indicate that that had occurred?

17 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

No.

18 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection, your Honor. Obviously if they didn't do the test, they couldn't find evidence.

19 THE COURT:

Overruled.

20 MR. KELBERG:

Your Honor--

21 THE COURT:

That was a speaking objection, counsel.

22 MR. KELBERG:

Thank you, your Honor.

23 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, anything further about item 12?

24 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Item 12, no.

25 MR. KELBERG:

Item 13, what does that refer to?

26 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Oh, that refers to, in the week following the autopsy, there was request for photographs from our office because there's a grand jury hearing on the case, and our machine was not functioning. You know, after the earthquake, we had some problems with our printer and processor and now we have a new photographic equipment available. And basically we requested--I requested LAPD to cooperate and make the prints for us. So we made a one-print set for us and one-print set for the grand jury hearings. And what Mr. Siglar is referring to is, he feels that the prints could have been made by sheriff than LAPD. So it's just a matter of which agency you choose, and to me, it doesn't make any difference because LAPD were nearby, they were handling the case on these two decedents and I requested LAPD.

27 MR. KELBERG:

How about the next item? What does that refer to?

28 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Oh, 14, "Photographic prints could have been available to assigned pathologist prior to review of the medical protocol." This is a procedure which is--which is being at least done on some of the cases wherein the pathologist looks at the photographs before the protocol is signed to see for any problems we may have with reference to injuries not being described or also to see whether the injuries which have been described are correct.

29 MR. KELBERG:

And is there some delay in the normal course of your business about getting the photograph with respect to your requirement to have the protocol dictated within 24 hours of the completion of the autopsy?

30 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

That--that is correct. But right now, we have the new equipment that just came. Following the earthquake, we got a new piece of equipment wherein you can have contact prints available one hour after the photography is done. So what I'm trying to do at the current time is to have some contact prints available to the doctors before they even do the autopsy to make sure that all the injuries are photographed. And this again is a laborious procedure and there are--we're trying to do it, but it's not been very successful. But that's the goal.

31 MR. KELBERG:

What is a contact print just so we'll understand?

32 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Contact prints, the print is the same size as the negative. So you have one strip with all the photographs taken on the case so the doctor knows which areas have been photographed. This is something new we are trying to do in our office.

33 MR. KELBERG:

How about the next item, item 15?

34 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Oh, that refers to the--to have bottles made depending on what kind of case you're dealing with reference to toxicology samples. If you have a suspect that's suicide, you make all the specimens available--I mean the containers available for a full tox collection because you like to have liver samples, stomach contents, bile, urine so that you can correlate the blood levels with the tissue levels and support your diagnosis or don't support your diagnosis of suicide.

35 MR. KELBERG:

Is there anything about this observation by Mr. Siglar that affects your ability to evaluate the evidence in these two autopsy cases?

36 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

No. I think the decision on what specimens to collect is the--is decision of the medical examiner. It's a medical decision. You are to use it intelligently to decide what you want done in a particular case. So this would apply because we do have residents coming into our office who work under supervision, and this is something which is already in place. We do a full tox on certain types of cases and certain types of cases we just collect blood like in traffic accidents, I already mentioned we collect blood and urine, depending on the nature of the case.

KEY QUOTE
37 MR. KELBERG:

Next item, item 16?

38 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

That is just a statement. One of the diagrams was not available at the time of initial release of documents and it was released to the Defense team when I met them on June 22nd. It was one diagram form which was misplaced and later retrieved and presented to all parties concerned.

39 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, was this a type of diagram such as we've been using in the course of the discussion of these two autopsies?

40 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

41 MR. KELBERG:

Anything else about item 16?

42 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

No.

43 MR. KELBERG:

Mr. Fairtlough, can you show us the rest of that page, please.

44 (Brief pause.)
45 MR. KELBERG:

Next page, please, Mr. Fairtlough.

46 (Brief pause.)
47 MR. KELBERG:

Maybe we could lower it so we can see.

48 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, can you identify--obviously we know who the middle name is--the first and third names, where the copies?

49 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Mr. Hernandez is the director of the department. He's in charge of all non-physician operations. Mr. Scott carrier is the public information officer.

50 MR. KELBERG:

And if Mr. Fairtlough can put on a single page that is the last part of this exhibit 365. And, doctor, in general terms, what is this document?

51 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

This is the notes taken by Gary Siglar during the medical examiner's meeting on June 23rd, `94, and these notes were used by him to generate that letter which we just discussed.

52 MR. KELBERG:

So these handwritten entries then relate to what is later included in the listed 16 items in the letter to Mr. Hodgman?

53 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

That's correct.

54 MR. KELBERG:

I don't think we--I'll leave it up to the Court if the Court wishes the ladies and gentlemen of the jury to have an opportunity to read it.

55 THE COURT:

Let's give them an opportunity to at least get a flavor for what it is.

56 (Brief pause.)
57 THE COURT:

Mr. Kelberg.

58 MR. KELBERG:

If I could inquire just briefly while we're showing this portion.

59 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, item 7--incidentally, just initially, this appears to be a shorthanded version of the items. For example, looking at item 2, it appears Mr. Siglar has handwritten "Looky loos," and in the current document, item 2 is "Preventing uninvolved employees from observing decedents should have occurred." Is this again to be a shorthanded method of note taking?

60 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

61 MR. KELBERG:

Now, looking at item 7, the "Late call out, liver temp/sexual assault"--

62 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

You mean 9, item 9?

63 MR. KELBERG:

Oh, I'm sorry. You're correct. Item 9. And perhaps Mr. Fairtlough could raise that. We're going to talk about, as part of time of death, this issue of when your office was notified, when Miss Ratcliffe went and so forth. With respect to the sexual assault entry here, doctor, what if anything different than what we discussed with you on the appropriateness or inappropriateness of taking a sexual assault kit in this case of Nicole Brown Simpson is referred to in that entry?

64 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Nothing further to add.

65 MR. KELBERG:

Your Honor, do you wish to give the jurors--

66 THE COURT:

No. I think we've seen this now.

KEY QUOTE
67 MR. KELBERG:

All right. Thank you, Mr. Fairtlough.

68 MR. KELBERG:

I have one other area of inquiry before talking to you, doctor, about time of death, and we raised it earlier dealing with Claudine Ratcliffe, your investigator, who went to the Bundy location, and it concerns the issue of taking blood samples of some form from a back of Nicole Brown Simpson. Do you recall that general area?

69 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

70 MR. KELBERG:

And you testified I believe already, even today, that when the body arrived at the Coroner's office on the 13th of June, you asked Mr. Mahanay, one of your criminalists, to take blood samples from two areas of Nicole Brown Simpson's body as reflected on the appropriate evidence log; is that correct?

71 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

He took blood samples from two areas.

72 MR. KELBERG:

And that's reflected in the appropriate evidence log, correct?

73 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

74 MR. KELBERG:

Now, I want to talk to you--

75 MR. KELBERG:

Mr. Lynch, could you take one of the easels just very briefly and put it in the location where we used the photographs?

76 (Brief pause.)
77 MR. KELBERG:

And, doctor, again with the Court's permission, would you step down.

78 MR. KELBERG:

This is exhibit 354, your Honor.

79 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, first of all, do you see the area where you asked Mr. Mahanay to take samples from when you saw the body at your offices on June 13th?

80 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

He made the determination which areas to take. I think he took the right thigh and calf area, these blood samples.

81 MR. KELBERG:

All right. Referring to photographs CS11 and the area of the right leg where you're pointing and down further below the knee; is that correct?

82 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

83 MR. KELBERG:

I want to invite your attention both to the back of Nicole Brown Simpson as seen in CS11 and the back of Nicole Brown Simpson as seen in CS12. Do you see what appears to you to be blood on the back of her body?

84 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

85 MR. KELBERG:

Would you have expected Claudine Ratcliffe to have taken any action at the scene to have that blood collected?

86 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

If she had seen it and she felt it was important, she would have asked it to be collected.

87 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, would you have--

88 MR. SHAPIRO:

Motion to strike. Nonresponsive.

89 THE COURT:

Overruled.

90 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, would you have considered it significant in any way that--such that you would have expected her to have had action taken to obtain those samples?

91 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

If it had been seen, I think it should have been taken.

92 MR. KELBERG:

Why?

93 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Because you don't have any injury in that area and you have blood drops there, and this could be blood drops falling off a weapon which could reflect the blood of the decedent, could be the blood of the--in this case, we have a second victim. It could have also reflected if the perpetrator had some injury, which can happen sometimes, and the perpetrator's blood. So it could be--it's good to collect and see whose blood it is.

94 MR. KELBERG:

Does the failure--and there was no effort made by Miss Ratcliffe to have that collected as far as you understand; is that correct?

95 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

It was not collected as far as all the evidence logs we show.

96 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, is the failure to have that collected a matter which causes you to be unable to determine the issues you have been talking about for the last week or so?

97 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection. Vague.

98 THE COURT:

Sustained.

99 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, is the absence of that evidence such that you cannot form opinions as a forensic pathologist with respect to the cause of death?

100 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

It's nothing to do with the cause of death.

101 MR. KELBERG:

Is there anything about the absence of that evidence which prevents you as a forensic pathologist from determining whether a single-edged knife caused each and every one of the sharp force injuries you identified in the course of your review?

102 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

This evidence has no bearing on that conclusion.

103 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, is there any significance without that evidence to your ability as a forensic pathologist to determine how long it would take to cause all of these injuries on these two people?

104 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Again, this evidence would not have any bearing to those conclusions or opinions I rendered.

105 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, is the absence of that evidence of any significance to you as a forensic pathologist in ascertaining whether one person armed with a single-edged knife of approximately 6-inch length, tapered at the tip could have killed both of these human beings?

106 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Again, this evidence collection would not have had any effect on my opinions on those hypothetical--I mean those issues that you brought up.

107 MR. KELBERG:

In your opinion, could the evidence have--if taken have been helpful to you even if it does not prevent you from answering the questions I've asked?

108 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

If it had been collected, it would be one more piece of information which is available. If it's the blood of Miss Simpson, then it would reflect that the blood drops are hers and falling off the weapon, and that would also support my opinion that the perpetrator was in the back, from the back lifted the head which was face down and cut her neck.

109 MR. KELBERG:

And if, for example, it was blood that was tested and found to genetically match blood drops found along the walkway leading to the back of the property and which further matched genetically to that of Mr. Simpson, the Defendant, would that have been helpful to you also in evaluating whether one perpetrator could have killed both of these two human beings in a brief, swift and violent attack?

KEY QUOTE
110 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

It would suggest--if that blood sample matched the perpetrator, it would suggest that at least one perpetrator was involved with this--with this evidence.

111 MR. KELBERG:

Is there anything further about that issue, doctor?

112 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

No.

113 MR. KELBERG:

As a brief follow-up to that, doctor, in the investigators' manual which you talked about on sexual assault kits, and inviting counsel to page 6.0.1 under "Field evidence procedures," is this what your investigators are instructed to do?

114 THE COURT:

Excuse me just a second. Mr. Shapiro, do you have that available?

115 MR. KELBERG:

I can walk over and show it to him. It might be quicker.

116 THE COURT:

All right.

117 MR. KELBERG:

Thank you.

118 MR. SHAPIRO:

Thank you, Judge. I appreciate it.

119 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)
120 MR. KELBERG:

Thank you, your Honor.

121 MR. KELBERG:

Again, doctor, referring to page 6.0.1, is this part of what your investigators such as Miss Ratcliffe are instructed to do at scenes like the Bundy location? Under "Field evidence procedures." "It is recognized that each death scene is unique and that the proper procedures for examining the decedent for evidence and the order of implementation of those procedures are dependent upon the circumstances of a particular case. "Coroner's personnel conducting an investigation at the scene of a death shall communicate and cooperate with investigative personnel from the investigating police agency to determine the best manner in which to proceed." Is that part of what they are instructed to do?

122 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

123 MR. KELBERG:

And one other manual. Doctor, is there something called an "Operations Bureau manual"?

124 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes. That is the manual which is used by the investigations division of our office, their procedures.

125 MR. KELBERG:

May I have just a moment?

126 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)
127 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
128 MR. KELBERG:

Thank you, your Honor.

129 MR. KELBERG:

And now inviting counsel under "Field investigations", and I'm not sure of the page, but it has a reference 230. Is this part of what your investigators like Miss Ratcliffe are informed to do? "When a death is reported to this department and is under our jurisdiction and the decedent is at the location of death or at the place discovered, a Coroner's investigator will be assigned and dispatched to conduct the death investigation." Further on: "Field investigators are responsible for maintaining the integrity of a death scene including information and evidence. They coordinate their investigations with investigators of other agencies also having jurisdiction of the scene. They functionally supervise other Coroner employees at a scene including any personnel charged with the responsibility of transporting the body."

And dropping further down to a part under the word, "Evidence": "Coroner's investigators coordinate their investigations with police officers or members of other investigative agencies so as not to mishandle or contaminate evidence in which all may be interested. When the Coroner's investigator determines the need to have a Coroner's criminalist respond to the scene for the purpose of collecting trace evidence or evidence of sexual assault, they will protect the scene until the criminalist arrives. In these instances, the criminalist will collect all evidence associated with the decedent." Are those instructions that are given to your investigators such as Miss Ratcliffe?

130 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

131 MR. KELBERG:

Now, doctor, let me move into my final area of inquiry dealing with the issue of time of death. And let me begin, if we could, please, with a brief review of the legal requirements regarding notification of the Coroner's office when a body has been found. Doctor, are you familiar with various statutes in the government code and the health and safety code that pertain to this issue of notification of the Coroner?

132 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes. In a general way.

133 MR. KELBERG:

Let me invite your attention, if I could, please, to several sections of government code starting with a section of section 27491 of the government code under the heading "Duty to investigate and determine cause of death" in the fifth full paragraph: "Any funeral director, physician or other person who has charge of a deceased person's body when death occurred as a result of any of the causes or circumstances described in this section shall immediately notify the Coroner. Any person who does not notify the Coroner as required by this section is guilty of a misdemeanor." Is that one of the sections of which you are familiar pertaining to the duty to notify your office?

134 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

135 MR. KELBERG:

And obviously this type of situation, of two people killed in a manner suggesting a criminal homicide, would be one of the areas covered by this statute; is that correct?

136 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

137 MR. KELBERG:

And when it says, "Funeral director, physician or other person," you understand that to include police officers; is that correct?

138 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

139 MR. KELBERG:

Now, let me drop down to 27491.2 under--

140 MR. SHAPIRO:

Your Honor, I'm going to move to strike the last part of that answer as calling for a legal conclusion.

141 THE COURT:

Overruled.

142 MR. KELBERG:

And as I was saying, dropping down to 27491.2: "A. The Coroner or the Coroner's appointed deputy, on being informed of a death and finding it to fall under the classification of deaths requiring his or her inquiry, may immediately proceed to where the body lies, examine the body, make identification, make inquiry into the circumstances, manner and means of death and, as circumstances warrant, either order its removal for further investigation or disposition or release the body to the next of kin." Is that another section of which you are familiar regarding the responsibilities of the Coroner's office?

143 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

144 MR. KELBERG:

And, doctor, would it be accurate to say that your office has the responsibility over the body itself?

145 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

146 MR. KELBERG:

Not the police agency?

147 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

That is correct.

148 MR. KELBERG:

Now, let me invite your attention under one more section of the government code 27491.3 under "Control of premises where body found," subsection C, the middle of that subsection as follows: "At the scene of any death, when it is immediately apparent or when it has not been previously recognized and the Coroner's examination reveals that police investigation or criminal Prosecution may ensue, the Coroner shall not further disturb the body or any related evidence until the law enforcement agency has had reasonable opportunity to respond to the scene if their purposes so require and they so request. Custody and control of the body shall remain with the Coroner at all times. Reasonable time at the scene shall be allowed by the Coroner for criminal investigation by other law enforcement agencies with the time and location of removal of the remains to a convenient place to be determined at the discretion of the Coroner." Is that another one of the sections of which you are familiar?

149 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

150 MR. KELBERG:

And, doctor, how does this section affect the relationship between your people, including your investigators like Miss Ratcliffe, and police investigators such as Detectives Lange and Vannatter?

151 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Basically, our office investigators cooperate with the police agencies if they require more time to collect evidence at a scene. That is one aspect of the government code which you just alluded to, that is 27419.3(C) indicates that. But the notification also is responsibility of the police department to call us as soon as they have a death.

152 MR. KELBERG:

And that's what I want to next discuss with you. Doctor, given the resources your office has, do you automatically respond at the time you are notified that there is a body found by a police agency which believes the body is the product of a criminal event?

153 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

The way it works is, when they notify us, the inquiry is when they give us a time when we can come and pick up the remains because they might not have finished their criminal investigation and evidence collection, because we have limited resources of our personnel, because we like to go to the scene and do our investigation and bring the remains back to our office as soon as possible. And as we discussed earlier, if necessary, the criminalist will be called and evidence collection by our criminalist from the body may take place at the scene also. So it is a situation where we need to plan our response to a crime scene. So we like to be notified when a death is recovered--when a death is discovered rather, and the response will depend on what kind of investigation is being conducted by the law enforcement agency so that we can plan our response so that our investigators don't spend time there waiting for evidence to be collected. And this is something where communication helps to have a kind of situation where both agencies conduct their responsibilities in a manner which is fit so that the criminal investigation of a particular crime doesn't suffer.

154 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, in the course of reviewing materials for this case, have you become aware of two telephone conversations between a police detective from the Los Angeles Police Department named Detective Phillips and two employees of the Coroner's office, one, Mr. Willis, w-I-l-l-i-s, and one, Mr. Heath, h-e-a-t-h?

155 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes. I had the opportunity to read the transcript. As you know, all calls coming into the Coroner's office are recorded, and I had a chance to read the transcript of that recorded information which came to our facility with reference to those communications between Mr. Phillips and Mr. Willis and later Mr. Phillips and one I think Mr. Heath of our office.

156 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, assuming that there's been testimony in this court that the bodies were first observed by a Los Angeles Police Department officer by the name of Riske at about 12:13 A.M. on June 13th, 1994 and that the first call by the police to your office occurred at 6:49 A.M. or about six and a half hours later on the same date, in your opinion, doctor, was that timely notification to you as required by the sections that we've just reviewed?

157 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

No.

158 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, in your review of these materials, have you attempted to form an opinion regarding the estimated time of death for Nicole Brown Simpson?

159 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, I have.

160 MR. KELBERG:

Have you also attempted, from your review of these materials, to form an estimated time of death for Ronald Goldman?

161 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

162 MR. KELBERG:

And before I ask you if you have in fact formed such opinions and what they are, let me first ask you, in your opinion, doctor, has the delay of six and a half hours with respect to the first notification and the fact, as we've already seen, that liver temperatures were not taken until approximately 10:40 and 10:50 A.M. on June 13th as documented in our exhibits 298-A and B, those form 1's, has that set of circumstances, doctor, caused you to be unable to form an opinion regarding the estimated time of death in each case?

163 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

No.

164 MR. KELBERG:

And further, doctor, if by some fortuitous work of faith, you had been with Officer Riske on June 13th at 12:13 A.M. on June--on that date with whatever bag of medical paraphernalia you would use for ascertaining the medical information from which you form an opinion as to cause of death, in your opinion, would you under those circumstances have been able to determine whether the death occurred at 10:15 P.M. on June 12th rather than 11:00 o'clock on June 12th?

165 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

No.

166 MR. KELBERG:

Would you be able to exclude any time period between 10:15 and 11:00 o'clock on June 12th if hypothetically you had been fortuitously with detective or Officer Riske at 12:13 and had done whatever you are able to do medically to make such determinations?

167 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

No.

168 MR. KELBERG:

Now, doctor--and we're going to go through why you hold that opinion; is that correct?

169 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

That's correct.

170 MR. KELBERG:

Let's start with, what is your opinion with respect to the estimated time of death for Nicole Brown Simpson?

171 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

I cannot tell exactly at what time she died, but she--obviously the--I have taken all the factors into consideration. I can't pinpoint exactly what time she died between 9:40 and 12:40 when the body was discovered. But based on--based on the perimeters which were evaluated, that is liver temperature, rigor, livor, et cetera. But the only thing which would favor--and there's one more factor which one can take into consideration, which would include gastric emptying and contents which show that there were identifiable food fragments in her stomach at the time of autopsy, identified as rigatoni and black olives, et cetera, which would reflect that--and also, I was told information that she ate the dinner somewhere between 8:00 and 8:15 that evening. Just using that, it would favor death took place between 10:00 and 10:30, but that again would not be a definite answer because that factor of gastric emptying and gastric digestion has so many variabilities to the process. So the bottom line is, I can't narrow time of death between 9:40 and 12:13, which is the discovered time of the bodies, with precision more than what I've discussed.

172 MR. KELBERG:

And, doctor, is the factor--let me withdraw the question if I might. Doctor, I want you to focus solely on medical factors and not on any information you may have received in the form of, for example, a documented telephone conversation between Nicole Brown Simpson and her mother at about 9:35 in the evening of June 12th and a documented call by Nicole Brown Simpson after that call to her mother or that call from her mother to the Mezzaluna restaurant. I want you to set that aside and focus solely on medical bases for forming an opinion on time of death. Have you an opinion--

173 MR. SHAPIRO:

Your Honor, I am going to move to strike that narrative.

174 THE COURT:

Overruled.

175 MR. KELBERG:

Have you an opinion--

176 THE COURT:

I'm sorry. The jury is to disregard the last deletion of factual circumstances, some of which are not in evidence yet. Let's just focus on the medical issues.

177 MR. KELBERG:

Have you formed an opinion as to a range during which the death of Nicole Brown Simpson occurred?

178 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

That could occur anywhere between 9:00 and--just on medical facts, if you give a range as anywhere between 9:00 and 12:45.

179 MR. KELBERG:

And we'll go through those medical facts. Do you have an opinion from the medical facts alone as to an estimated range for the time of death of Ronald Goldman?

180 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

It would be the same.

181 MR. KELBERG:

And, doctor, when forensic pathologists evaluate cases for time of death, do they attempt to provide a specific time or do they attempt something else?

182 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

They always give an estimated range because the perimeters you use to estimate time of death are rough perimeters and there's--you cannot be precise in giving a precise time of death. You always give an estimated range with a plus or minus of three hours for a particular time which you estimate the death should have taken place because you always have to give the range because the factors you use have so many variabilities in built in them themselves. So if you take those variabilities of the factors you use and apply them to a particular situation, you can only give an estimated range. You cannot give any precision to a particular time like 10:15 or 10:20. It's very difficult.

183 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, in preparing for this area of your testimony, have you reviewed medical literature on the subject of estimation of a range for time of death?

184 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

185 MR. KELBERG:

Is one of the materials you reviewed a book called, "The estimation of the time since death in the early postmortem period," by Henssge H-E-N-S-S-G-E, Knight, K-N-I-G-H-T, Krompecher, K-R-O-M-P-E-C-H-E-R, Medea, M-E-D-E-A, and Nokes, N-O-K-E-S?

186 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

I referred to that book, yes.

187 MR. KELBERG:

And in fact, have you read this book?

188 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

I read the book to areas which apply to the pathologists.

189 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, when did this work come out?

190 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

This year, 1995.

191 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, to your knowledge, is this the first book devoted entirely to this subject, the estimation of the time since death in the early postmortem period that is published in English?

192 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

193 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, are you familiar with who these people are, Henssge, Knight and so forth?

194 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

195 MR. KELBERG:

Perhaps if Mr. Fairtlough could just put the face of the book up on the elmo and then the doctor can tell us who these people are.

196 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Dr. Henssge is the--works for the institute of forensic medicine at the University of Essen in Germany.

197 MR. KELBERG:

University of what, doctor?

198 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Essen, e-s-s-e-n. Mr.--

199 MR. KELBERG:

What kind of institute is that if you're aware?

200 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

It's a forensic institute. I have not been there, so--it's a recognized forensic institution.

201 MR. KELBERG:

And the next name, Dr. Knight?

202 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Dr. Knight is the Professor of Forensic Pathology at University of Wales School of Medicine in Cardiff in the United Kingdom.

203 MR. KELBERG:

Before you go beyond his name, doctor, is one of the materials you also reviewed a chapter regarding "Estimation of time of death found in a forensic pathology text" with the name Bernard Knight, "Forensic pathology"?

204 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

205 MR. KELBERG:

And is this a 1991 text?

206 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

207 MR. KELBERG:

What is this kind of text?

208 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

It's a textbook of forensic pathology addressing different issues in forensic pathology used by pathologists and other forensic scientists to have information pertaining to that particular medical specialty.

209 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, first of all, is Dr. Henssge recognized as one of the leading researchers in the area of estimation of time of death?

210 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes. He has--he has done a lot of work in this area and he--actually his nomograms, which we will be discussing later, has been developed taking some variable factors involved in the cooling of the body and that nomogram, which we will be discussing later, will give you a tool, a tool to apply certain findings you--you--you have when you examine a body, and when you apply it in a nomogram, you can come up with an estimated range. And again, it's an estimated range. It's not a time of death with precision.

211 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, is Dr. Knight a preeminently recognized forensic pathologist?

212 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes. He's well known in the forensic community. He has written this textbook. He also edits the other book, Keith Simpson.

213 MR. KELBERG:

And I was going to ask you about that. Is there another forensic pathology text that you reviewed the chapter on "Estimation of time of death" entitled, "Simpson's--" obviously no reference to the Defendant--"Simpson's forensic medicine, 10th edition", Bernard Knight?

214 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

215 MR. KELBERG:

And the edition date of this, doctor, is 1991?

216 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

217 MR. KELBERG:

And is this--are both of these books with Dr. Knight as the editor considered as recognized medical text in the area of forensic pathology?

218 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

219 MR. KELBERG:

All right. How about if we--do you know any of the other names?

220 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Medea is known. He always writes papers with Dr. Henssge. Dr. Medea is from the University of Koln, K-O-L-N, in Germany.

221 MR. KELBERG:

And is Dr. Medea one of the recognized researchers in the area of "Estimation of time of death"?

222 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes. Most of the people by Dr. Henssge has his name also.

223 MR. KELBERG:

Are you familiar with the other two names, doctor?

224 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Just when I read the book, Mr. Nokes works for the University of Wales, Cardiff. He's I think the engineering--I think he's in the engineering department.

225 MR. KELBERG:

And actually if we could ask Mr. Fairtlough to put the title page up. It has references to each of these people and I think we'll find it's Dr. Nokes.

226 (Brief pause.)
227 MR. KELBERG:

MD, doctor, stands for what?

228 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Medical doctor.

229 MR. KELBERG:

Are you familiar with what MRCP stands for?

230 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes. It stands for the member of the royal college of physicians, and usually that's a diplomat given in England and--

231 MR. KELBERG:

How about the other designations for Dr. Knight? Are you familiar with what they mean?

232 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

FRCPATH is Federal Royal College of Pathologists. DMJ is Dipomat Medical Jurisprudence, Pathology. Barrister is also a lawyer.

233 MR. KELBERG:

And dropping down to--it is Dr. Nokes; is it not?

234 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes. I'm sorry. I--but he does work for the engineering department.

235 MR. KELBERG:

At the University of Wales in Cardiff?

236 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

237 MR. KELBERG:

Now, doctor, in reviewing this material, have you considered its contents in forming opinions?

238 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes. As I told, I only reviewed portions which applied to pathologists. There's a lot of material there which is for mostly mathematicians, statisticians which is--which I didn't pay attention to.

239 MR. KELBERG:

And in fact, is that part of the preface by Dr. Knight for people who are not inclined towards higher levels of mathematics? "For those non-medical readers, including lawyers and police detective officers, as well as the many doctors who are unfamiliar with more advanced mathematics and physics, some parts of the text can be avoided in favor of the more practical sections, which summarize the best current methods and indicate the limits of accuracy."

240 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

241 MR. KELBERG:

And have you done that, doctor?

242 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

243 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, have you relied at least in part on the information you have read in this book?

244 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, I have.

245 MR. KELBERG:

And as part of the material that you have relied upon in part, has the following been included from the preface? "Though very many papers have been published on the subject, to the best of our knowledge, this is the first book in the English language to be devoted to the estimation of the time since death. "As the historical review will indicate, the problem of determining the postmortem interval--" and is that a fancy way of saying how long a person has been dead?

246 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

That's correct.

247 MR. KELBERG:

"--has exercised doctors and scientists for at least a century and a half, yet accuracy still remains beyond our grasp. "This book does not pretend to solve this ancient difficulty, but offers a series of monographs by different authors, which address various aspects of the problem. "Particularly in relation to temperature-based methods, the opinions of different authors will be seen to vary, but this lack of consensus is familiar to all those working in forensic medicine." Part of what you referred to, considered and relied upon, doctor?

248 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

249 MR. KELBERG:

And further, doctor, did you refer to, consider and rely in part on the following from the general introduction by Dr. Knight? "The importance of estimating the time since death must have been appreciated for centuries, probably millennia. Even in the most unsophisticated societies, when homicides took place, the community would inevitably have correlated the location and movements of the prime suspects with the apparent time of death, however crude that comparison might have been, to test what would later become the Defense of alibi. "Little has changed from those early days, except that their data acquisition equipment was merely the back of a hand to test the coolness of the corpse's skin, and their eyes and nose to evaluate decomposition. We now have multichannel thermometry with thermo-couples sensitive to a fraction of a degree, enzyme methods, vitreous chemistry, muscular reactivity and several other avenues for collecting data. Regrettably, the accuracy of estimating the postmortem interval has by no means kept pace with the enormous strides made in technical sophistication."

250 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection. May we approach the bench, your Honor?

251 THE COURT:

Overruled.

252 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, again, part of what you have read, considered and relied upon?

253 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

254 MR. KELBERG:

And further, doctor: "It is not only the Defense of alibi that has such relevance to the estimation of the postmortem interval in criminal deaths. In the earliest stage of many criminal investigations, before any suspect is questioned or charged, a knowledge of the approximate time of death is vital if the investigating officers are to direct their inquiries in the appropriate direction. The relationship of the time of death to other events, to persons in the vicinity and to those who could not have been in the vicinity, will automatically channel investigative efforts along certain lines. When several suspects are being considered, the best estimate of the time of death forms a primary screening procedure to eliminate some putative killers, who could not have had access to the deceased at the material time, and may strengthen suspicion against others whose movements coincided with the estimated time. There is thus a heavy responsibility upon the doctor who offers an opinion as to the probable time of death. If he or she is significantly in error, the investigation may be dislocated at its earliest and perhaps most vulnerable stage. "The onus is therefore upon the doctor to provide a range"--and the word "Range" is italicized. "--of times within which he or she thinks the death occurred, which is as accurate as is justified in the circumstances. Even more importantly, it must not be so unreasonably precise as to exclude incorrectly the true time of death, as this may provide a false alibi for one or more suspects.

"To offer an unreasonably accurate time of death is worse than providing such a wide range of times that the police derive no help from it. In the latter situation, they at least then know that they have to use other methods in their investigation, but to mislead them by some outrageously precise time runs the risk of their excluding the true culprit, as well as falsely implicating an innocent party. "Unfortunately, it is often the least experienced medical witness who tends to offer the most accurate estimate, not having seen enough cases to appreciate the many pitfalls and fallacies in the process. Certainly, with all the methods available up to the present time, the opinion of any doctor who offers a single"--and the word single is italicized. "--time of death, instead of a range or one who includes any fraction of an hour, instead of a whole hour must be viewed with considerable skepticism." Doctor, have you read, considered and relied in part on that information in forming your opinions?

255 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

256 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection. Motion to strike.

257 THE COURT:

Overruled.

258 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

259 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, have you also reviewed chapters from a book that you have previously identified, Spitz' and Fischer's "Medical legal investigation of death, 3rd edition," edited by Dr. Spitz and dated 1993?

260 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, I have.

261 MR. KELBERG:

Have you also reviewed the materials related to estimation of time of death from another text called "The pathology of homicide" by Lester Adelson, A-D-E-L-S-O-N, dated 1974?

262 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, I have.

263 MR. KELBERG:

By the way, are both of these books considered recognized forensic pathology textbooks?

264 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, they are.

265 MR. KELBERG:

Also, doctor, have you reviewed two other books with respect to their chapters dealing with the estimation of the time of death?

266 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, I have.

267 MR. KELBERG:

One of which is called "Gradwohl's, G-R-A-D-W-O-H-L'S, Legal Medicine, 3rd Edition," dated I believe it's 1976?

268 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, I have.

269 MR. KELBERG:

And something called "Modern legal medicine, psychiatry and forensic science" by Curran, c-u-r-r-a-n, and others dated 1980?

270 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, I have.

271 MR. KELBERG:

And also, doctor, have you reviewed specific individual medical articles concerning the estimation of the range for time of death?

272 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, I have.

273 MR. KELBERG:

And in particular, articles going to this issue of the use of stomach contents as a means of estimating the range for time of death?

274 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes, I have.

275 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, with those preliminaries aside, I have a series of boards that I want to go through with you on this subject of estimation of the range for time of death.

276 MR. KELBERG:

And, your Honor, the first board, which is called, "Factors commonly used to estimate range for time of death," I ask to be marked as People's exhibit 366.

277 THE COURT:

366.

278 (Peo's 366 for id = board)
279 MR. KELBERG:

And I think Mr. Fairtlough can put that one up on the elmo. I'm not sure--your Honor, I don't know--for the jurors convenience, if we can put it on the elmo and have it as a board. Prefer that?

280 THE COURT:

All right.

281 MR. KELBERG:

And Mr. Fairtlough has broken this one down. So we'll see parts of it.

282 (Brief pause.)
283 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, it might be more convenient for you if you might step down, with the Court's permission, to the board.

284 THE COURT:

Yes.

285 MR. KELBERG:

What is the information conveyed on this exhibit?

286 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

This exhibit mainly shows the various factors which are used in the estimation of time of death and the range of time of death, and the physical chemical factors is one, chemical factors is two and other associated factors. In physical chemical factors, one is algor mortis.

287 MR. KELBERG:

What is algor mortis?

288 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

It is the postmortem cooling of the body. The other way of putting it is loss of warmth of the body.

289 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, is algor mortis considered, among all the available techniques medically, the most reliable means of estimating the range for time of death?

290 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

It is the most common method used in our office and other jurisdiction in this country.

291 MR. KELBERG:

What's the next entry then?

292 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Rigor mortis, and that is the phenomenon of postmortem stiffening of the muscles which follows a period of primary flaccidity.

293 MR. KELBERG:

What does primary flaccidity mean?

294 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

That is the muscles are not stiff. They're relaxed. Just after a person dies, if you lift their arms up, it won't be stiff. It will be just flaccid, relaxed, better word to use. And the stiffening process is due to chemical changes which involves the proteins in the muscle fibers. Do you want me to go into detail in each one?

295 MR. KELBERG:

I think we're going to see that when we discuss in specific terms rigor mortis. So perhaps that we'll finish in general terms.

296 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Livor mortis is the draining of blood in--by gravity into the vessels of the dependent parts of the body after the circulation has ceased, that is after your heart has stopped beating, and causes a discoloration in the skin which is not subject to pressure. So in the area where the body is in contact with the ground, you won't have a coloration because the pressure would have pressed on the vessels and so blood cannot accumulate in the vessels.

297 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, is that a part of what you discussed yesterday in looking at the position of Mr. Goldman's body and some discoloration that you saw in one of the photographs, I believe it was G-5?

298 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

299 MR. KELBERG:

All right. If you'll continue.

300 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Then we have chemical factors wherein you take some vitreous humor from the eye, estimate the potassium level in the vitreous humor. And the vitreous humor is that part of the eye--it's a substance found in the back of the eye behind your lens and in front of what is called the retina. It's a gel-like substance which is present in everybody, and you remove the material and you send it for analysis for this chemical potassium. And we'll discuss this in detail later. Associated factors, one is the stomach contents. Then of course, the other one is--which is--a factor which is independent verifiable evidence of when the victim was last seen or heard alive.

301 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, that last factor, B, is that in your opinion a medical factor?

302 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

No. It's more information, which is not a medical factor, but is a factor which is important. If somebody saw somebody alive and you feel by your--this range, that they were dead already, it doesn't make sense. So you have to use--be intelligent and use all factors which are important, which can be verified--the important thing is, verify the evidence, just not hearsay. That is, you have independent verification that somebody saw and there's evidence for it.

KEY QUOTE
303 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, as an example, assuming there's been evidence received concerning a telephone bill showing a conversation between the mother of Nicole Brown Simpson and Miss Brown Simpson at 9:35 in the evening of June 12th, 1994, would that factor narrow your estimated range for time of her death from the 9:00 o'clock to 12:30 or 12:45 that you testified earlier would be the range based upon the medical factors?

304 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

You would have verified that the mother did speak to Miss Simpson or just the phone bill?

305 MR. KELBERG:

No. Assuming that such a conversation occurred.

KEY QUOTE
306 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

If the conversation can be confirmed, then that would be an important factor which would narrow the estimated range which is used, just not the telephone bill.

307 MR. KELBERG:

And assume, for example, that Mr. Goldman was seen at the Mezzaluna restaurant after 9:30 in the evening and he left the restaurant--assume there's been testimony in this case that he left the restaurant approximately 10 minutes to 10:00 that evening and assuming that that is an accurate observation, would that be another factor which would be useful to you in narrowing your range for the time of his death down from 9:00 o'clock to 12:30 to 12:45?

308 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

309 MR. KELBERG:

Is there anything further in general terms about this board, doctor?

310 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

No.

311 MR. KELBERG:

Let me switch to a different board.

312 (Brief pause.)
313 MR. KELBERG:

Your Honor, we actually have a series of boards that deal with algor mortis, and let me just get the total number. There are four boards with written information and two graph boards. May they collectively be marked as exhibit 367? And as we go through them, I'll make them A, b and so forth.

314 THE COURT:

A through whatever.

315 MR. KELBERG:

Thank you, your Honor.

316 (Peo's 367 for id = series of boards)
317 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, starting with what I'd ask to be 367-A, algor mortis temperature, what does this board show?

318 (Peo's 367-A for id = algor mortis temp.)
319 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

This shows the details of this method of estimating the range of time of death.

320 MR. KELBERG:

Let's start at the top. You've defined it I believe; is that correct?

321 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Yes.

322 MR. KELBERG:

Let's go to item 2. What is this concept "Core temperature"?

323 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

That is the inner body temperature in the core of the body. That would be the--you take a temperature of the liver or the rectum or the brain, depending on which organ you use to obtain the temperature. That would be the central part of the body and that will be the--reflect the true temperature of the body because the skin surface does not really reflect the true temperature of the body. That is why when you go to a doctor, they put a thermometer in your mouth and take the temperature of the person.

324 MR. KELBERG:

Now, doctor, in your office, is there a general procedure or protocol as to the location from which this core temperature will be obtained?

325 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

We take in our office the core temperature from the liver. The investigator makes a small incision in the right upper quadrant of the abdomen and then passes this thermometer--this is a liver temperature probe. It's about four and a half inches long and you have this dial which is about one inch in diameter, and the tip of the probe is the temperature sensitive instrumentation which will give a digital readout of the body temperature, which is--at the time this procedure was done and usually the investigator, before doing this, will also take the ambient temperature, that is the temperature of the surrounding--where the body was found to get that temperature first, which is just for placing the thermometer so that you don't touch the tip. As I told you, the tip has the electronic sensitive accruement to read out the temperature. So you keep it free and you get the ambient temperature. And then five minutes later, you do the body temperature and you get the printout--I mean the digital readout of the body temperature. And that is how the core body temperature is obtained in our office, and we have some guidelines for that, yes.

326 MR. KELBERG:

Why has your office selected the liver over any other location in the body?

327 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

Because if you use a rectal temperature, you may interfere in a case where you need to collect sexual assault. It may interfere with the collection process because you want to take this temperature as soon as the Coroner's office gets to see a decedent because we want to get the temperature as soon as possible so that we have an idea to give a better estimated range because in estimated range of time of death, the further the time is away, the estimated range also gets wider. The brain is not used because you have to do an intrusive procedure which is not feasible. So in our office, we use a liver temperature, which is an easier procedure, can be done by all our investigators, and we have some guidelines when they should do it. Basically we do it in all our unwitnessed deaths and homicide cases or there are several deaths in one scene to see--especially if it's the whole family who died, who died first, it helps sometimes.

328 MR. KELBERG:

Doctor, I'm--please finish. I'm sorry.

329 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

We have guidelines, we have procedures when it should be done.

330 MR. KELBERG:

Is there any reason beyond interference with possible sexual assault evidence why you do not use the rectum?

331 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

The other reason is, you need to have the temperature--thermometer probe at least 10 sonometers in the--in the--into the rectum so that you have an accurate reflection of the core body temperature. So that is again a situation where you have to--it's more like a medical procedure to put a probe into the anal-rectal area, and this is a much simpler procedure wherein you just have to put a probe in the liver which is right below the right coastal margin of the chest wall.

332 MR. KELBERG:

If you are using the rectum as the source for core temperature and you don't insert it properly, will the temperature you obtain be one which you can reliably use in formulating an estimated range for the time of death?

333 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

No, because you'll get a particular number which may not really reflect the core body temperature, and naturally this will throw--throw off your estimated range.

334 MR. KELBERG:

How difficult is it to hit the target, for lack of a better term, where the target is the liver?

335 DR. LAKSHMANAN:

It's much less chance that you will miss the target. The liver is a huge organ sitting on the right side of the upper abdomen, and the probe will strike the liver because our investigators are trained to do that.

336 MR. KELBERG:

Your Honor, I don't know where you wish to break. I have a chart I was going to put on the elmo now.

337 THE COURT:

All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to take our break for the lunch hour at this time. Please remember all my admonitions; do not discuss the case amongst yourselves, don't form any opinions about the case, do not conduct any deliberations until the matter has been submitted to you or allow anybody to communicate with you with regard to the case. And we'll resume testimony at 1:00 o'clock. All right. We're in recess.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (5)

Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran
I can't narrow time of death between 9:40 and 12:13, which is the discovered time of the bodies, with precision more than what I've discussed.
Core prosecution position: the medical evidence cannot pinpoint time of death precisely enough to establish or defeat an alibi for any specific window.
Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran
there were identifiable food fragments in her stomach at the time of autopsy, identified as rigatoni and black olives, et cetera, which would reflect that... it would favor death took place between 10:00 and 10:30
Gastric contents provide the narrowest medical window for Nicole's time of death, consistent with the prosecution's timeline.
Brian Kelberg
if, for example, it was blood that was tested and found to genetically match blood drops found along the walkway leading to the back of the property and which further matched genetically to that of Mr. Simpson, the Defendant, would that have been helpful to you also in evaluating whether one perpetrator could have killed both of these two human beings
Kelberg openly connects the uncollected back-of-body blood drops to Simpson's DNA trail, framing the missed collection as a lost corroboration rather than an exculpatory gap.
Brian Kelberg
the opinion of any doctor who offers a single time of death, instead of a range or one who includes any fraction of an hour, instead of a whole hour must be viewed with considerable skepticism
Kelberg reads from Knight's authoritative forensic text to preemptively undercut any defense expert who claims a precise time of death excluding Simpson.
Dr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran
No.
Direct answer that LAPD's six-and-a-half-hour delay in notifying the Coroner's office was not timely under the legal notification statutes — establishing a procedural failure by LAPD.

Evidence (9)

People's 365
Gary Siglar's letter to Mr. Hodgman critiquing autopsy procedures, with handwritten notes from the June 23rd medical examiner's meeting
discussed, items 11-16 reviewed and defused
People's 354
Crime scene photographs CS11 and CS12 showing blood on Nicole Brown Simpson's back and right leg area
discussed in context of uncollected blood samples
People's 298-A and 298-B
Form 1's documenting liver temperatures taken at approximately 10:40 and 10:50 A.M. on June 13th
referenced to establish timeline of delayed response
People's 366
Board titled 'Factors commonly used to estimate range for time of death' listing algor mortis, rigor mortis, livor mortis, vitreous potassium, stomach contents, and last-seen evidence
introduced and displayed
Informal
Henssge, Knight et al., 'The estimation of the time since death in the early postmortem period' (1995) — first English-language book devoted entirely to the subject
read from, relied upon by witness
Informal
Bernard Knight, 'Forensic Pathology' (1991) and 'Simpson's Forensic Medicine, 10th edition' (1991)
identified as recognized texts, relied upon
+ 3 more

Notable Exchanges (4)

Brian KelbergDr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran
Kelberg hypothetically asks whether blood from Nicole's back, if collected, would have been significant — then explicitly raises the scenario that it could have matched OJ Simpson's DNA trail along the walkway. Lakshmanan confirms it would suggest 'at least one perpetrator was involved.'
strategic
Brian KelbergLance A. Ito
Kelberg begins framing Nicole's phone call to her mother at 9:35 P.M. as medical context for time of death, prompting Ito to instruct the jury to disregard factual circumstances 'not in evidence yet.'
procedural
Robert ShapiroLance A. Ito
Shapiro lodges a speaking objection — 'Obviously if they didn't do the test, they couldn't find evidence' — on the fluoroscopy question, earning a rebuke from Ito: 'That was a speaking objection, counsel.'
tense
Brian KelbergDr. Lakshmanan Sathyavagiswaran
Extended reading of Knight's authoritative passage warning that any doctor who gives a single precise time of death 'must be viewed with considerable skepticism' — framing the prosecution's own witness as authoritative while neutralizing any defense expert claiming a precise alibi-breaking time.
strategic

Light Moments (1)

Brian Kelberg
When discussing 'Simpson's Forensic Medicine,' Kelberg parenthetically clarifies 'obviously no reference to the Defendant' before continuing.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Claudine Ratcliffe (Coroner's investigator)
omission / failure to follow protocol
Kelberg establishes through both the Operations Bureau manual and the investigators manual that Ratcliffe was required to collect evidence of potential significance at the scene; the blood drops on Nicole's back were visible but never collected, framed as a procedural failure.
⚔ LAPD (Detectives Phillips, Lange, Vannatter)
statutory violation
Kelberg uses California Government Code sections to establish that LAPD's six-and-a-half-hour delay in notifying the Coroner's office (bodies found at 12:13 A.M., first call at 6:49 A.M.) was not timely as required by law, undermining the integrity of the scene investigation.

Witness Demeanor

(Brief pause.) — multiple instances during exhibit display
(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.) — two instances during manual review

Objections

7 objections (1 sustained, 6 overruled)
Proceeding 6378 • 337 utterances • Prosecution witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 JUN 14, 1995 📄 Direct examination of Dr. Laks
JUN 14, 1995 KRT DvH TD