Redirect examination of Gary Sims (part 1)

📄 Redirect examination of Gary Sims (part 1) — Thursday, June 1, 1995

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C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUN\1\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-GARY-S.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 86 of 167

◀ Recross-examination of Gary Sims (part 1) Sidebar ▶

Witness: Gary Sims
Examiner: Rockne Harmon
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, June 1, 1995 • Utterances: 48

Prosecutor Harmon conducts redirect examination of DOJ DNA analyst Gary Sims, rehabilitating testimony on blood mixture evidence from the Bronco. Harmon elicits that mixtures from Bronco items 31, 303, 304, and 305 were consistent with OJ Simpson combined with the two murder victims, and walks through how Sims initially visualized tissue on the glove using a stereomicroscope. The examination ends abruptly at sidebar when Scheck objects to a question about Greg Matheson communicating with Sims about the socks.

# 1 THE COURT:

Thank you, Mr. Scheck. Mr. Harmon.

# 2 MR. HARMON:

Just a moment, your Honor.

# 3 THE COURT:

Certainly.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. HARMON

# 4 MR. HARMON:

Mr. Sims, because you haven't seen a photo of the glove before it was sampled, does that mean to you it doesn't exist?

# 5 MR. SIMS:

No.

# 6 MR. HARMON:

You just haven't seen one?

# 7 MR. SIMS:

That's correct.

# 8 MR. HARMON:

Let's start with the mixtures, and I don't intend to ask you specifics about them, but Mr. Scheck asked you questions about the challenge in sorting out mixtures. Do you recall that just a moment ago?

# 9 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 10 MR. HARMON:

Now, in addition to sorting out mixtures, have you encountered cases where the fact that there is a mixture is of significance to you as a forensic scientist?

# 11 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 12 MR. HARMON:

Without being able to sort them out?

# 13 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 14 MR. HARMON:

You talked about what--seems like another lifetime ago--the blood mixtures case that you had? Do you recall that?

# 15 MR. SIMS:

Yes, right. I talked about the blood being present from the two different individuals or consistent with the two different individuals.

# 16 MR. HARMON:

Where you were unable to sort them out?

# 17 MR. SIMS:

Yes. In that particular case it was not easy to sort them out, as I recall.

# 18 MR. HARMON:

Okay. This case is one of those cases; is it not?

# 19 MR. SIMS:

Well, I think in particular when you look at any one stain, that can be difficult to sort out, and to me I tend to look at the totality of the--the interpretations.

# 20 MR. HARMON:

For example, Mr. Simpson alone could have been the source of no. 30 from the Bronco console?

# 21 MR. SIMS:

I believe that's correct.

# 22 MR. HARMON:

All right. If you need to look at your notes, that will be fine.

# 23 MR. SIMS:

Let me look at my notes again. (Witness complies.) Yes.

# 24 MR. HARMON:

But when you moved to 31, it wasn't consistent with Mr. Simpson alone; is that true?

# 25 MR. SIMS:

That's correct.

# 26 MR. HARMON:

And regardless of your ability to sort it out, was that mixture consistent with two people who had recently been brutally murdered?

KEY QUOTE

# 27 MR. SIMS:

Well, it was--in 31, for example, it would be consistent with Mr. Simpson, the Defendant, along with one of the victims--

# 28 MR. HARMON:

With one of the victims in this case?

# 29 MR. SIMS:

--in this case.

# 30 MR. HARMON:

And in 305 and 303 and 304, that was not a mixture--that was not a stain that was consistent with Mr. Simpson alone?

# 31 MR. SIMS:

That's correct.

# 32 MR. HARMON:

It just happened to be consistent, those three stains, with a mixture of Mr. Simpson and two other people who had recently been brutally murdered; is that true?

# 33 MR. SIMS:

Yes, that is correct, as far as those three samples that you mentioned.

KEY QUOTE

# 34 MR. HARMON:

And just to distinguish between sorting out mixtures, this has nothing to do with sexual assault cases where there is a way to sort out the sperm DNA from the epithelial cell DNA?

# 35 MR. SIMS:

That's correct.

# 36 MR. HARMON:

When you looked at the glove and when you saw that tissue, you couldn't see that with your naked eye, could you?

# 37 MR. SIMS:

When I originally looked in that area of the glove, I looked for--there was a reddish stain in that notch area, and then I looked under the stereomicroscope and that is where I noted that there was a possible piece of tissue. Now, once I knew what that piece looked like, then if I got the light real strong and just right on it, I could--I could see it with the naked eye, but I had to use the strong light to see that.

# 38 MR. HARMON:

So what you were able to--the way you were able to initially visualize it was through the stereomicroscope?

# 39 MR. SIMS:

That's correct.

# 40 MR. HARMON:

And then knowing that it was there, using some other lighting source, you were able to see it with your eye?

# 41 MR. SIMS:

Yes.

# 42 MR. HARMON:

Well, let's talk about the socks then in that same process.

# 43 MR. SIMS:

Okay.

# 44 MR. HARMON:

A did Greg Matheson communicate to you about the socks before you ever examined those socks?

# 45 MR. SCHECK:

Objection, hearsay.

# 46 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 47 MR. HARMON:

It is not offered for the truth of the matter.

# 48 THE COURT:

Let me see counsel at the side bar with the court reporter, please.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Rockne Harmon

And regardless of your ability to sort it out, was that mixture consistent with two people who had recently been brutally murdered?

Harmon reframes the complexity of mixture analysis — the inability to fully separate contributors doesn't undercut the significance that the mixture matches Simpson plus his victims.

Gary Sims

It would be consistent with Mr. Simpson, the Defendant, along with one of the victims in this case.

Direct testimony placing Simpson's DNA profile in a mixture with a murder victim's DNA in the Bronco.

Gary Sims

Yes, that is correct, as far as those three samples that you mentioned.

Confirms that items 303, 304, and 305 were consistent with a three-person mixture: Simpson plus both victims.

Gary Sims

Once I knew what that piece looked like, then if I got the light real strong and just right on it, I could see it with the naked eye, but I had to use the strong light to see that.

Explains the glove tissue discovery process, countering any implication that it was fabricated or implausible to overlook.

Evidence (5)

Informal

Bronco console item 30 — blood stain consistent with Simpson alone

discussed

Informal

Bronco console item 31 — blood mixture consistent with Simpson and one victim

discussed

Informal

Bronco items 303, 304, 305 — blood mixtures consistent with Simpson and both victims

discussed

Informal

Rockingham glove — possible tissue fragment observed under stereomicroscope in notch area

discussed

Informal

Socks — Harmon attempts to ask about Matheson's pre-examination communication; objection sustained before answer

mentioned, inquiry cut off

Notable Exchanges (2)

Rockne Harmon•Gary Sims

Harmon walks Sims through the Bronco mixture evidence item by item, establishing that the inability to fully separate contributors does not diminish the finding that the mixtures match Simpson plus the murder victims.

strategic

Rockne Harmon•Barry Scheck•Lance A. Ito

Harmon's question about Matheson's pre-examination communication regarding the socks draws a hearsay objection from Scheck, sustained by Ito, sending the parties to sidebar.

contested

Witness Demeanor

(Witness complies.) — Sims reviews his notes when asked about item 30

Objections

1 objections (1 sustained, 0 overruled)

Proceeding 6257 • 48 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103