Direct examination of Dr. Fredric Rieders (afternoon, part 1)

📄 Direct examination of Dr. Fredric Rieders (afternoon, part 1) — Monday, July 24, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\24\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-DR-FREDR.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 120 of 167

◀ Sidebar: photodegradation evidence Sidebar: Trujillo study and EDTA ▶

Witness: Dr. Fredric Rieders
Examiner: Robert Blasier
Called by: Defense • Date: Monday, July 24, 1995 • Utterances: 144

Dr. Fredric Rieders, a forensic toxicologist called by the defense, continues his direct examination by Robert Blasier regarding the FBI's EDTA testing methodology. Blasier methodically establishes that the FBI conducted no validation studies to account for environmental degradation of EDTA in the gate blood or the sock, and highlights dramatic inconsistencies in the FBI's own positive control data — the same 50 ppm EDTA standard yielded ion counts of 319,561 and 49,393 on the same day. The examination ends mid-stride as Clark requests a sidebar on the question of EDTA absorption from food.

# 1 (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

# 2 THE COURT:

All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. All right. Let the record reflect that we've been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good afternoon.

Frederic Rieders, the witness on the stand at the time of the lunch recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

# 3 THE COURT:

Frederic Rieders is on the witness stand undergoing direct examination by Mr. Blasier. And good afternoon, doctor.

# 4 DR. RIEDERS:

Good afternoon, sir.

# 5 THE COURT:

Doctor, you are reminded, sir, you are still under oath. Mr. Blasier, you may continue with your direct examination.

# 6 MR. BLASIER:

Thank you, your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. BLASIER

# 7 MR. BLASIER:

Dr. Rieders, I think we were talking at the break about environmental conditions with respect to the gate. Let me ask you if--and you described one way that you would do some testing to determine what effect that might have on the amount of EDTA that you started with versus what comes off the stain taken several days or weeks later. Do you recall that?

# 8 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes, I recall.

# 9 MR. BLASIER:

To answer that question properly--

# 10 THE COURT:

Excuse me, doctor. Would you pull the microphone closer to you, please. Thank you.

# 11 MR. BLASIER:

Confronted with that set of circumstances, to answer the question, mainly how much EDTA might you lose under those environmental--

# 12 MS. CLARK:

Objection, your Honor. Objection.

# 13 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 14 MR. BLASIER:

Did you see any evidence that the FBI did any studies whatsoever to determine what would be the difference in the amount of EDTA in a stain put on a gate with EDTA blood--

# 15 MS. CLARK:

Objection, your Honor.

# 16 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 17 MS. CLARK:

Same objection.

# 18 MR. BLASIER:

--subjected to whatever environmental conditions it was subjected to and then collected from a day to three weeks later?

# 19 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence, that there would ever be any evidence.

# 20 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 21 DR. RIEDERS:

No, I did not see anything along those lines.

# 22 MR. BLASIER:

Now, let me ask you hypothetically about the sock. Did you see any indication in the FBI reports that you were given indicating that any testing was done to determine what, if any, loss you might have in EDTA if you put EDTA blood on the sock at one point in time subjected to changes in temperature, inspection under various different kinds of lighting and multiple handling to determine how much EDTA might be left at the end of all that process?

# 23 DR. RIEDERS:

No, I did not see.

# 24 MS. CLARK:

Objection, your Honor.

# 25 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 26 MR. BLASIER:

If you were doing a validation study to determine that question--well, let me ask you this. If you were trying to make some sort of assessment on the quantity of EDTA that you would expect at the end of that process when you do the testing, would you do those kinds of studies to answer those questions?

# 27 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes.

# 28 MR. BLASIER:

Would you--would you just assume that it's not going to make any difference and--

# 29 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Leading.

# 30 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 31 MR. BLASIER:

Did you see anything in the FBI reports indicating whether they did any studies whatsoever to determine whether there might be any oxygen or bacterial degradation of EDTA?

# 32 MS. CLARK:

Objection, your Honor. Same objection. No foundation.

# 33 THE COURT:

Overruled. Overruled.

# 34 DR. RIEDERS:

No.

# 35 MR. BLASIER:

Did you see anything in the FBI paperwork indicating that they looked at the question of what might happen to the amount of EDTA in a stain if an EDTA--some EDTA blood was mixed in with some non-EDTA blood?

# 36 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Irrelevant.

# 37 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 38 MR. BLASIER:

Now, you reviewed charts that the FBI produced of their positive controls for EDTA, correct?

# 39 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes.

# 40 MR. BLASIER:

And what's your understanding of how those positive controls were made?

# 41 DR. RIEDERS:

The positive controls were made by taking the material, for example, on the swatch or just taking plain blood and adding to it EDTA or taking known EDTA blood and see how it behaves.

# 42 MR. BLASIER:

Did you see--

# 43 DR. RIEDERS:

But it was all fresh blood.

# 44 MR. BLASIER:

Did you see any indication of how long they waited from the time they put the blood on a stain until they actually tested it?

# 45 DR. RIEDERS:

No.

# 46 MR. BLASIER:

Would that be significant? Would that be important to you?

# 47 DR. RIEDERS:

Only if it were to exceed a normal laboratory period; you know, you start something, you continue that day or next day. If it was any length of time, yes.

# 48 MR. BLASIER:

And if you were trying to simulate what might--what you might expect to find under the conditions which we have with the sock and the back gate, in your opinion, would it be adequate to just take a bloodstain that's dried for a period of an hour let's say and testing it right then?

# 49 DR. RIEDERS:

It does not at all reproduce the conditions of the specimen. So in that rare extent, it does not.

KEY QUOTE

# 50 MR. BLASIER:

Now, doctor, the charts produced for the positive controls had relatively large peaks; did they not?

# 51 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes.

# 52 MR. BLASIER:

And--I would like to have a chart marked, please.

# 53 THE COURT:

1261.

# 54 MR. BLASIER:

I'm sorry? 12--

# 55 THE COURT:

1261.

# 56 MR. BLASIER:

1261?

# 57 (Deft's 1261 for id = chart)

# 58 MR. BLASIER:

Let me show you what's been marked as 1261. Did you receive a bar chart like that in the material from the FBI?

# 59 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes.

# 60 MR. BLASIER:

And let me put that on the elmo. Now, doctor, does this appear to be a bar chart produced in the FBI paperwork? Can you see it?

# 61 DR. RIEDERS:

I'm trying to read the one next to the large numbers. What is it? Yes. I've received that.

# 62 MR. BLASIER:

And the up and down access, the left access there is the ion count, correct?

# 63 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes.

# 64 MR. BLASIER:

And the various different bars indicate EDTA or what matches EDTA found from various samples, correct?

# 65 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes.

# 66 MR. BLASIER:

Now, does that particular chart in representing ion counts--let me rephrase this. Did they run positive controls more than just those two times?

# 67 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes.

# 68 MR. BLASIER:

Did they get large fluctuations in the ion count for different positive controls?

# 69 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes.

# 70 MR. BLASIER:

Did they get different ion counts for their known standards as well?

# 71 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Leading.

# 72 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 73 MR. BLASIER:

Let me have two other charts marked.

# 74 MS. CLARK:

Your Honor, can we ask that counsel identify what's on this chart?

# 75 THE COURT:

It's his examination, counsel.

# 76 MR. BLASIER:

Let me ask you one question about the chart before we mark the next set. The two columns on the left indicate dress. Do you see that?

# 77 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes.

# 78 MR. BLASIER:

And they indicate approximately the same amounts from a sample called K65 and K65C. Do you agree with that?

# 79 DR. RIEDERS:

No. The one on the right is substantially thicker than the one on the left. No. 2 is substantially thicker than no. 1 as far as the height is concerned.

# 80 MR. BLASIER:

You're talking about the two on the left?

# 81 DR. RIEDERS:

Yeah.

# 82 MR. BLASIER:

Okay. Are you aware that that was Nicole Brown Simpson's dress?

# 83 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes.

# 84 MR. BLASIER:

Do you know what substance that was made out of?

# 85 DR. RIEDERS:

I think it's one of the artificial fibers that includes EDTA.

KEY QUOTE

# 86 MR. BLASIER:

Does rayon include EDTA?

# 87 DR. RIEDERS:

In the process, yes.

# 88 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

# 89 MR. BLASIER:

Now, let me have two other charts marked 12--

# 90 THE COURT:

1262 is next in order.

# 91 MR. BLASIER:

1262-A and B.

# 92 (Deft's 1262-A and b for id = charts)

# 93 MR. BLASIER:

For the record, 1262-A is discovery no. 4077 and is labeled 50 parts per million EDTA and 40--I'm sorry--1262-B is discovery page 4070, also indicated at 50 parts per million EDTA. And these are both from February 22nd, counsel.

# 94 MR. BLASIER:

Dr. Rieders, let me show you two charts, 1262-A and 1262-B, and ask you if those appear to be charts testing 50 parts per million EDTA.

# 95 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes.

# 96 MR. BLASIER:

And what are the times on those two charts in terms of when each sample was run?

# 97 DR. RIEDERS:

One at 9:32 and 25 seconds in the morning and the other one at 1:48 and 11 seconds in the afternoon of the same day.

# 98 MR. BLASIER:

Now, for the chart that has the no. 4077--

# 99 MR. BLASIER:

Your Honor, could we have slide v, 1257-V?

# 100 MR. BLASIER:

Now, doctor, could you tell us for chart no. 4077 what was the ion count for 50 parts per million on that particular run?

# 101 DR. RIEDERS:

For the area? Is that what you want?

# 102 MR. BLASIER:

No. The peak height.

# 103 DR. RIEDERS:

The peek height? 319,561.

KEY QUOTE

# 104 MR. BLASIER:

Now, look at chart 4070, the same standard, the same amount run later that day. What was the ion count later in the day?

# 105 DR. RIEDERS:

49,393.

# 106 MR. BLASIER:

And would you agree that, assuming the chart is properly labeled, those two should be the same thing? Well, let me rephrase that. The same thing is being tested in both of those runs?

# 107 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes.

# 108 MR. BLASIER:

And do you find it unusual at all that the ion counts would change so much from one test to the next on the same day?

# 109 MS. CLARK:

Outside the scope of this witness' expertise. He doesn't run this machine.

# 110 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 111 MR. BLASIER:

Doctor, do you interpret chromatograms all of the time?

# 112 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes. Yes.

# 113 MR. BLASIER:

Do you look at peak heights and peak areas and retention times all the time?

# 114 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes.

# 115 MR. BLASIER:

Do you have an opinion on whether ion counts under the conditions of the FBI's experiments can vary that much, as much as is shown in the chart, from run to run in the same day?

# 116 MS. CLARK:

Objection. No foundation. Exceeds the scope of his expertise.

# 117 THE COURT:

Overruled. Overruled.

# 118 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes, I have an opinion.

# 119 MR. BLASIER:

What's your opinion?

# 120 DR. RIEDERS:

Easily, because with the electrospray system, you get numbers that go pretty much all over. So that's consistent with electrospray analysis.

KEY QUOTE

# 121 MR. BLASIER:

Now, is this a--if you ran an internal standard with each of those, what--if the equipment is working properly, what would you find?

# 122 DR. RIEDERS:

Well, you'd find that the ratio would be the same if it's the same sample. Mind you, if it's a different sample, it could be, you know, different blood, different thing. But if it's the same sample or the same batch for the analysis, then you would find the ratio is similar, provided everything went all right, even though the numbers are greatly different.

# 123 MR. BLASIER:

Now, have I asked you to--have you reviewed some material provided by Mr. Martz concerning the amounts of--well, let me rephrase this. Is EDTA appear or allowed to be present in food?

# 124 DR. RIEDERS:

In food? Yes.

# 125 MR. BLASIER:

What kinds of foods is it allowed to be in?

# 126 DR. RIEDERS:

In some of the dried vegetable type things like in peas and beans according to the one FDA release that I have, in pickles, in a variety of foods. I don't recall any what you call basic foods that are eaten in huge amounts like bread or something. But it might be. I don't know.

# 127 MR. BLASIER:

Have you reviewed the federal requirements in terms of the maximum amounts of EDTA that can be put into various foods?

# 128 DR. RIEDERS:

I looked at them, yes.

# 129 MR. BLASIER:

And have you determined from those materials what you would expect to find in a person's natural blood who is eating materials with EDTA in them?

# 130 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Beyond the scope of his expertise.

# 131 THE COURT:

Is that foundation?

# 132 MS. CLARK:

Foundation.

# 133 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 134 MR. BLASIER:

Doctor, are you called upon to make calculations of how much of a particular substance might be in the bloodstream based on what you ingest by mouth?

# 135 DR. RIEDERS:

If I have any idea of what the absorption is, yes.

# 136 MR. BLASIER:

And is there a study you reviewed in this case provided by Mr. Martz that talks about the absorption rate of EDTA into the system?

# 137 DR. RIEDERS:

Yes.

# 138 MR. BLASIER:

And what study is that?

# 139 DR. RIEDERS:

That is a study by Trujillo and--now the second name slips--in the 50's using radioactive labeled EDTA and fed to people.

# 140 MR. BLASIER:

And what did that study determine was the absorption rate of EDTA into the bloodstream when it was taken by mouth?

# 141 MS. CLARK:

Objection, your Honor. That study has no relevance to this.

# 142 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 143 MS. CLARK:

I need to approach at this point to explain.

# 144 THE COURT:

With the court reporter.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Dr. Fredric Rieders

319,561.

Ion count for 50 ppm EDTA standard at 9:32 AM — contrasted moments later with 49,393 for the identical standard run the same afternoon, a roughly 6-to-1 discrepancy that Blasier uses to undermine the FBI's quantitative conclusions.

Dr. Fredric Rieders

Easily, because with the electrospray system, you get numbers that go pretty much all over. So that's consistent with electrospray analysis.

Rieders defuses the dramatic ion count gap by attributing it to normal electrospray variability — cutting against the FBI's implicit claim that a given ion count is a reliable absolute measure of EDTA quantity.

Dr. Fredric Rieders

It does not at all reproduce the conditions of the specimen. So in that rare extent, it does not.

Rieders states flatly that the FBI's positive controls — using fresh blood dried briefly — did not simulate the real-world conditions of the sock or gate stain, undermining the validity of the FBI's comparison baseline.

Dr. Fredric Rieders

I think it's one of the artificial fibers that includes EDTA.

Rieders identifies that Nicole Brown Simpson's rayon dress naturally contains EDTA, which contextualizes why high EDTA readings from the dress samples may not indicate preserved blood.

Evidence (5)

Defense 1261

Bar chart from FBI paperwork showing EDTA ion counts for multiple samples including K65 and K65C (Nicole Brown Simpson's dress)

introduced and displayed on Elmo projector

Defense 1262-A

FBI chart of 50 ppm EDTA standard run at 9:32 AM on February 22 (discovery page 4077), showing ion count of 319,561

introduced and compared to 1262-B

Defense 1262-B

FBI chart of same 50 ppm EDTA standard run at 1:48 PM on February 22 (discovery page 4070), showing ion count of 49,393

introduced to highlight dramatic within-day variability in FBI controls

Defense 1257-V

Slide used to display ion count data for cross-reference with charts 1262-A and B

displayed

Informal

Trujillo study (1950s) using radioactive-labeled EDTA fed to human subjects to measure oral absorption rate, provided to defense by FBI's Martz

referenced; sidebar requested before testimony could proceed

Notable Exchanges (3)

Robert Blasier•Dr. Fredric Rieders

Blasier walks Rieders through the ion count discrepancy in the FBI's own positive controls — 319,561 vs 49,393 for identical 50 ppm EDTA standard run on the same day. Rieders explains the variation is consistent with electrospray analysis, a double-edged answer that validates the instrument while undercutting the reliability of any absolute ion count comparison.

strategic

Robert Blasier•Dr. Fredric Rieders•Marcia Clark

Clark objects that Rieders lacks expertise to opine on ion count variability because 'he doesn't run this machine.' Blasier rehabilitates Rieders by eliciting that he interprets chromatograms routinely, and Ito overrules. The exchange clarifies the boundary of Rieders' qualified opinion.

contested

Marcia Clark•Lance A. Ito

As Blasier approaches the Trujillo EDTA absorption study and its implications for background EDTA in blood from food, Clark objects and requests to approach with the court reporter. The transcript ends with the sidebar not yet on record.

heated

Light Moments (1)

Lance A. Ito

Ito corrects Clark's attempt to redirect Blasier's examination: 'It's his examination, counsel.' — after Clark asked that Blasier identify what's on a chart before displaying it.

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ FBI / Roger Martz (implied)

methodological critique through expert testimony

Rieders systematically testifies that the FBI conducted no validation studies for EDTA degradation under real-world environmental conditions (sun, temperature changes, multiple handlings over weeks), used fresh blood controls that did not replicate specimen conditions, and produced positive control data with dramatic within-day variability — all framing the FBI's EDTA quantification as scientifically unreliable.

Objections

11 objections (5 sustained, 5 overruled)

Proceeding 7006 • 144 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103