Direct examination of Robert Heidstra (part 1)

📄 Direct examination of Robert Heidstra (part 1) — Wednesday, July 12, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\12\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-ROBERT-H.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 113 of 167

◀ Opening matters Sidebar: credibility question ▶

Witness: Robert Heidstra
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Defense • Date: Wednesday, July 12, 1995 • Utterances: 205

Cochran resumes direct examination of Robert Heidstra, a neighbor and dog-walker who heard sounds near the Bundy crime scene on the night of the murders. The bulk of this session focuses on a Memorial Day 1995 visit to Heidstra's home by prosecutor Christopher Darden and two detectives — Cochran using it to imply witness intimidation, particularly through Darden asking Heidstra whether he was in the country legally. The proceeding ends at a sidebar before Cochran can pursue the immigration question further.

# 1 (Brief pause.)

# 2 (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury:)

# 3 THE COURT:

All right. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Please be seated. Let the record reflect that we have been rejoined by all the members of our jury panel. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

# 4 THE COURT:

Good to see you again. All right. Mr. Robert Heidstra, would you resume the witness stand, please.

Robert Heidstra, the witness on the stand at the time of the evening adjournment, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

# 5 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Good morning.

# 6 THE COURT:

All right. Good morning, Mr. Heidstra.

# 7 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Good morning.

# 8 THE COURT:

Mr. Heidstra, you are reminded, sir, that you are still under oath. And would you pull the microphone close to you, please. Thank you. Mr. Cochran.

# 9 MR. COCHRAN:

Certainly, your Honor. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

THE JURY: Good morning.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. COCHRAN

# 10 MR. COCHRAN:

Good morning, Mr. Heidstra.

# 11 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Good morning.

# 12 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 13 MR. COCHRAN:

Mr. Heidstra, yesterday at the end of the day we had been discussing your observations on the evening of June 12th, 1994, the Sunday, and I think we had concluded talking about the meeting that you had had--

# 14 THE COURT:

Excuse me just a second. Deputy Magnera, one of our jurors needs a pen.

# 15 (Brief pause.)

# 16 THE COURT:

All right. Proceed.

# 17 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 18 MR. COCHRAN:

I believe we had discussed the time that you came down for the meeting in this building with Miss Clark and Mr. Hodgman and Detective Payne. Do you recall that?

# 19 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 20 MR. COCHRAN:

And after that particular conversation with those two Deputy District Attorneys and with the police officer, did you have occasion to talk to any other police officers after--after that conversation?

# 21 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no.

# 22 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Did you have occasion to meet with a lawyer on the Prosecution team this year, during 1995?

# 23 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, sir.

# 24 MR. COCHRAN:

You didn't meet with Mr. Christopher Darden?

# 25 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Later on, yes; later.

# 26 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. When was that?

# 27 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That was on memorial day.

# 28 MR. COCHRAN:

Memorial day of this year?

# 29 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 30 MR. COCHRAN:

That is of 1995?

# 31 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly.

# 32 MR. COCHRAN:

And when we talk about Mr. Darden, you mean the gentleman here in the middle, Mr. Darden?

# 33 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That's it, yes.

# 34 MR. COCHRAN:

And was Mr. Darden in the company of anyone else?

# 35 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Two detectives.

# 36 MR. COCHRAN:

When he came out to see you?

# 37 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Two detectives.

# 38 MR. COCHRAN:

And do you presently recall the names of either of those detectives who were with Mr. Darden?

# 39 MR. HEIDSTRA:

One name was Steven--Stevens.

# 40 MR. COCHRAN:

Mark Stevens, kind of a large gentleman?

# 41 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, right, right.

# 42 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you remember the name of the other gentleman, if it was a gentleman?

# 43 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no.

# 44 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. How was this meeting arranged on memorial day or thereabouts involving Mr. Darden, Mr. Stevens and this other individual?

# 45 MR. HEIDSTRA:

They called me at eight o'clock in the morning.

# 46 MR. COCHRAN:

Where did they call you, sir?

# 47 MR. HEIDSTRA:

At home.

# 48 MR. COCHRAN:

At your residence there on Dorothy?

# 49 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah--yes.

# 50 MR. COCHRAN:

You had a conversation with them?

# 51 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. They told me they wanted to--

# 52 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, hearsay.

# 53 MR. HEIDSTRA:

They wanted--

# 54 THE COURT:

Mr. Darden, if you are going to make an objection, we need to stand so I can see that you are making an objection. Sustained.

# 55 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 56 MR. COCHRAN:

With regard--

# 57 THE COURT:

Also, Mr. Heidstra, would you allow Mr. Cochran to finish asking the question before you start your answer.

# 58 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sorry. Yes.

# 59 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 60 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, the question was you had a conversation--without telling us what it was--you had a conversation with somebody from the D.A.'s office; is that right?

# 61 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 62 MR. COCHRAN:

That was about eight o'clock in the morning?

# 63 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 64 MR. COCHRAN:

And after that conversation did the three gentleman that you have spoken about show up where you live?

# 65 MR. HEIDSTRA:

At ten o'clock, yes.

# 66 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Was that the time you agreed upon?

# 67 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 68 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And they came out to Dorothy; is that correct?

# 69 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 70 MR. COCHRAN:

And so that we are clear, that was in the month of--toward of end of May of 1995; is that correct?

# 71 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 72 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And once they got to your particular residence--you have never met Mr. Darden before, had you?

# 73 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 74 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you have a conversation with these three individuals at that point?

# 75 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes, yes.

# 76 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And did you invite them into your house or did you go someplace?

# 77 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, I sat there and I have my dogs. I have a small apartment so we went outside for a walk.

# 78 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. All right. Was it your idea to go for a walk?

# 79 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, I said, "Let's go around the block."

# 80 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Did you walk around the block?

# 81 MR. HEIDSTRA:

We did.

# 82 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You were accompanied by--you didn't take your dogs with you this time?

# 83 MR. HEIDSTRA:

One dog I took with me.

# 84 MR. COCHRAN:

Which dog did you take?

# 85 MR. HEIDSTRA:

The younger dog.

# 86 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. By the way, with the Court's indulgence with regard to those dogs--I don't have a dog fixation, but there is some merit here, your Honor. With regard to those dogs, will you tell us how old are those two dogs.

# 87 THE COURT:

We heard this yesterday.

# 88 MR. COCHRAN:

I'm not sure the one dog--

# 89 THE COURT:

I thought we heard that one was 14.

# 90 MR. COCHRAN:

Not the other one.

# 91 THE COURT:

All right. Proceed.

# 92 MR. COCHRAN:

Bear with me.

# 93 MR. COCHRAN:

The one dog, how old is the oldest dog?

# 94 MR. HEIDSTRA:

He is about 14 now.

# 95 MR. COCHRAN:

How old is the youngest dog?

# 96 MR. HEIDSTRA:

11 now I guess.

# 97 MR. COCHRAN:

The youngest dog is 11?

# 98 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 99 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Does the oldest dog suffer with some kind of an ailment?

# 100 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes, arthritis in the back legs.

# 101 MR. COCHRAN:

He has what?

# 102 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Arthritis.

# 103 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. And is that--how does that affect his ability to walk when you go out with him?

# 104 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, irrelevant.

# 105 MR. COCHRAN:

It becomes very relevant.

# 106 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 107 MR. COCHRAN:

You can answer.

# 108 MR. HEIDSTRA:

He can walk very slowly, very slow, very slow.

KEY QUOTE

# 109 MR. COCHRAN:

Does that affect the time it takes you to complete your walk?

# 110 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, sure, sure, sure.

# 111 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. So you took one of the dogs with you, I presume the younger one, that morning?

# 112 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 113 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. And you had a conversation with these three gentlemen?

# 114 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 115 MR. COCHRAN:

As you walked, did you show him anything or did you just talk?

# 116 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, we were just talking about--asking questions.

# 117 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You responded to their questions?

# 118 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 119 MR. COCHRAN:

And did Mr. Darden ask you some questions?

# 120 MR. HEIDSTRA:

He did.

# 121 MR. COCHRAN:

What did Mr. Darden ask you?

# 122 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, hearsay.

# 123 MR. COCHRAN:

I think I can link it up, your Honor.

# 124 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. What did Mr. Darden ask you?

# 125 MR. HEIDSTRA:

What kind of work I did and if I was legally in this country.

KEY QUOTE

# 126 MR. COCHRAN:

He asked if you were legal?

# 127 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 128 MR. COCHRAN:

You are a legal citizen, aren't you?

# 129 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 130 MR. COCHRAN:

What else did he ask you?

# 131 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, your Honor, hearsay.

# 132 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 133 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, how were you treated by Mr. Darden and these men who came out to see you?

# 134 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Pretty cruel, pretty--

KEY QUOTE

# 135 MR. DARDEN:

Okay.

# 136 THE COURT:

Sustained. It is irrelevant.

# 137 MR. COCHRAN:

It is irrelevant, your Honor?

# 138 THE COURT:

It is irrelevant.

# 139 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. The conversation, can you describe for us the tone of the conversation between these three men as they asked you questions, specifically Mr. Darden?

# 140 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not very friendly.

# 141 MR. COCHRAN:

And did you try to respond to them as they talked to you?

# 142 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 143 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you try to be friendly and cooperative?

# 144 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 145 MR. COCHRAN:

Did Mr. Darden's tone toward you ever become friendly at any time during the conversation?

# 146 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not--

# 147 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, your Honor. This is completely irrelevant.

# 148 THE COURT:

I'm going to sustain the objection to that particular question.

# 149 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. I will ask another one.

# 150 THE COURT:

But we have established the tone.

# 151 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. Thank you.

# 152 MR. COCHRAN:

Did that tone remain the same throughout?

# 153 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly.

# 154 MR. COCHRAN:

Unfriendly tone?

# 155 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly.

# 156 MR. COCHRAN:

How long were you with these three men on that date of memorial day of 1995?

# 157 MR. HEIDSTRA:

About 25 minutes, something like that.

# 158 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, yesterday in your testimony, you indicated to us that you had heard a gate clanging. Do you remember that?

# 159 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 160 MR. COCHRAN:

And at the time you heard this gate clanging, you couldn't see which gate that was, could you?

# 161 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no.

# 162 MR. COCHRAN:

And although you described for us at first the dog that you believed was the Akita barking, were you ever able to see the Akita that night?

# 163 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never saw him.

# 164 MR. COCHRAN:

But you thought that you recognized that particular bark, having heard it before?

# 165 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes, yes.

# 166 MR. COCHRAN:

Was that the same thing as with the black dog?

# 167 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, yes, sure.

# 168 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, with regard to this case, did you have occasion to hear or see the opening statements in this particular case back in January of 1995?

# 169 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, I did.

# 170 MR. COCHRAN:

And when--did you see it on television or what did you do?

# 171 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Excuse me. I was home.

# 172 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You observed it on television?

# 173 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 174 MR. COCHRAN:

And did you hear statements regarding the times that certain things had happened out there on Bundy on June 12th, 1994?

# 175 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes.

# 176 MR. COCHRAN:

And when you heard those things, what--how did that affect you?

# 177 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, irrelevant.

# 178 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 179 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Very surprised.

# 180 THE COURT:

Wait, wait. Mr. Heidstra, when an objection is made and I sustain the objection, you are not to answer the question.

# 181 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Okay.

# 182 MR. DARDEN:

Motion to strike, your Honor.

# 183 THE COURT:

Stricken.

# 184 MR. COCHRAN:

When you heard the opening statements did you at that point make any statements?

# 185 MR. DARDEN:

Objection.

# 186 MR. COCHRAN:

He can answer that yes or no.

# 187 MR. DARDEN:

Irrelevant.

# 188 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 189 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Did you at any time after the opening statements talk to anybody from the Prosecution at all?

# 190 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, not--no, no, no.

# 191 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Did you talk to--did you make any statements to anybody else at that time?

# 192 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 193 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, in this conversation that you had with Mr. Darden and these two gentlemen, did they ever suggest anything to you at all?

# 194 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, vague.

# 195 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 196 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 197 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And did you--did the subject of where you come from ever come up?

# 198 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 199 MR. COCHRAN:

Was anything said about that--may I approach, your Honor?

# 200 MR. COCHRAN:

May we approach just a moment regarding this?

# 201 THE COURT:

Sustained as hearsay.

# 202 MR. COCHRAN:

May we approach with this?

# 203 THE COURT:

No. Sustained as hearsay.

# 204 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, I want to ask a question and I--all right. Well, before I ask the question I would like to tell you about that question, I think.

# 205 THE COURT:

With the court reporter, please.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Robert Heidstra

What kind of work I did and if I was legally in this country.

Heidstra's account of what Darden asked him during the Memorial Day meeting — Cochran uses this to imply prosecutorial intimidation of a defense-friendly witness.

Robert Heidstra

Pretty cruel, pretty--

Heidstra begins to characterize how he was treated by Darden before being cut off by a sustained objection — the fragment is damaging enough on its own.

Robert Heidstra

Not very friendly.

Heidstra's characterization of Darden's tone throughout the Memorial Day meeting, the only description the court allowed to stand.

Robert Heidstra

He can walk very slowly, very slow, very slow.

Describes the arthritic older dog's pace — directly relevant to the timeline of Heidstra's nightly walk and when he would have been near Bundy.

Johnnie Cochran

I don't have a dog fixation, but there is some merit here, your Honor.

Cochran preempts Ito's skepticism about the dog age questions, correctly anticipating their timeline relevance.

Evidence (2)

Informal

Heidstra's testimony about hearing a gate clang near the Bundy crime scene on the night of June 12, 1994

discussed

Informal

Heidstra's testimony about recognizing the Akita's bark without seeing the dog

discussed

Notable Exchanges (3)

Johnnie Cochran•Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Cochran elicits that Darden visited Heidstra on Memorial Day with two detectives and asked whether he was legally in the country — framing the prosecution as attempting to intimidate a defense witness through immigration status.

strategic

Lance A. Ito•Robert Heidstra

Ito repeatedly admonishes Heidstra to wait for questions before answering, including after a sustained objection when Heidstra blurted 'Very surprised.'

procedural

Lance A. Ito•Johnnie Cochran

Ito declines Cochran's repeated requests to approach the bench before the sidebar, sustaining hearsay objections on the immigration topic from the bench.

procedural

Light Moments (2)

Johnnie Cochran

Cochran preemptively apologizes for asking about the dogs again: 'I don't have a dog fixation, but there is some merit here, your Honor.'

Lance A. Ito

Ito cuts Cochran off mid-question to note 'We heard this yesterday' regarding the dog ages, before allowing him to continue.

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Christopher Darden

witness account of prosecutorial conduct

Cochran uses Heidstra's account of the Memorial Day meeting to imply Darden attempted to intimidate a defense-friendly witness by questioning his immigration status and adopting a hostile demeanor.

Witness Demeanor

Heidstra answers before objections are ruled on multiple times, requiring admonishment from the bench.

Heidstra blurts 'Very surprised' after a sustained objection, prompting a motion to strike.

Heidstra's answers about Darden's treatment ('Pretty cruel, pretty--') are clipped by objections before he can complete his thought.

Objections

9 objections (7 sustained, 2 overruled)

Proceeding 6764 • 205 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103