Cross-examination of Robert Heidstra (part 4)

📄 Cross-examination of Robert Heidstra (part 4) — Wednesday, July 12, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\12\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-ROBERT-HE.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 113 of 167

◀ Sidebar: impeachment evidence admissibility Redirect examination of Robert Heidstra (part 1) ▶

Witness: Robert Heidstra
Examiner: Christopher Darden
Called by: Defense • Date: Wednesday, July 12, 1995 • Utterances: 474

Darden cross-examines Robert Heidstra, a defense witness who claims to have heard two voices — including an angry older man's voice — near 875 Bundy around 10:35 p.m. on June 12, 1994. Darden attacks Heidstra's timing certainty (he wore an analog watch with no numbers), impeaches him with alleged statements to Patricia Baret identifying the voice as Simpson's and boasting about making money from the case, and establishes that someone could drive from Bundy to Rockingham well within the prosecution's timeline. The examination ends with Heidstra admitting he'd told Baret he expected OJ to 'appreciate' his testimony — and that making money 'is a joke.'

# 1 (The following proceedings were held in open court:)

# 2 THE COURT:

All right. Thank you, counsel. Proceed.

# 3 MR. DARDEN:

Thank you, your Honor.

# 4 MR. DARDEN:

You told us earlier, Mr. Heidstra, that you had on occasion done some work for the Salingers, correct?

# 5 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes, regularly.

# 6 MR. DARDEN:

And on the exhibit up here which is Defense 1239, I believe, the Salinger residence is to the right of the photograph?

# 7 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, sir.

# 8 MR. DARDEN:

Directly next door to the Defendant's home on Rockingham; is that correct?

# 9 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 10 MR. DARDEN:

And how long have you been working for the Salingers?

# 11 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, five, six--six years at least.

# 12 MR. DARDEN:

And how many times a week would you go up to the Salingers home to wash or detail their cars?

# 13 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Every other week.

# 14 MR. DARDEN:

So you have been going up there every other week for five years?

# 15 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yeah.

# 16 MR. DARDEN:

Now, had you ever met the Defendant, Mr. Simpson, that is, prior to June 12th, 1994?

# 17 MR. HEIDSTRA:

You mean Rosa Lopez?

# 18 MR. DARDEN:

No, the Defendant, Mr. Simpson?

# 19 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sorry.

# 20 MR. DARDEN:

Had you ever met him, that is, prior to June 12th, 1994?

# 21 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. I saw him once in the yard, one time in the yard, but never talked.

# 22 MR. DARDEN:

You would be working out in the yard sometimes; is that right?

# 23 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I work in the garage next to Mr. Simpson's house.

# 24 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. The garage is directly next to Mr. Simpson's house?

# 25 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, it is next--

# 26 MR. DARDEN:

You have to let me finish talking, otherwise she won't get us both down. And even though you only saw Mr. Simpson once, were there other occasions where you heard his voice?

# 27 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never, no, no.

# 28 MR. DARDEN:

You never heard Mr. Simpson's voice prior to June 12th, 1994?

# 29 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never, never.

# 30 MR. DARDEN:

But you watch a lot of television, don't you?

# 31 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Some sports.

# 32 MR. DARDEN:

You watch the news?

# 33 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 34 MR. DARDEN:

And have--and you have watched sports over the years; is that right?

# 35 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 36 MR. DARDEN:

What are your favorite sports?

# 37 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Soccer, what we call football in Europe.

# 38 MR. DARDEN:

Anything else?

# 39 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Ice hockey, basketball.

# 40 MR. DARDEN:

American football?

# 41 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Boring.

# 42 THE COURT:

Wait until you see baseball.

KEY QUOTE

# 43 MR. HEIDSTRA:

You are right, Judge.

# 44 MR. DARDEN:

Over the years have you watched Hertz commercials?

# 45 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 46 MR. DARDEN:

Have you ever seen any infomercial on television?

# 47 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not that I remember. I'm not interested in that.

# 48 MR. DARDEN:

So your testimony then is that you have never heard the Defendant's voice prior to June 12th, 1994?

# 49 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I never watch football.

# 50 MR. DARDEN:

Have you ever heard the Defendant's voice on anything else?

# 51 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Maybe--maybe I heard once. Maybe a Hertz commercial I might have heard one time or something.

# 52 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Well, you do recall that those commercials involving the Defendant for Hertz used to run rather often, correct?

# 53 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 54 MR. DARDEN:

They were everywhere?

# 55 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Two or three times. I don't remember.

# 56 MR. DARDEN:

And the Defendant would talk in those commercials. Do you remember that?

# 57 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, I remember.

# 58 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And you can recognize the Defendant's voice if you hear it, can't you?

# 59 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, I can recognize him probably. Yeah, probably.

# 60 MR. DARDEN:

May I proceed, your Honor?

# 61 THE COURT:

Proceed.

# 62 MR. DARDEN:

You do recognize that you heard the second voice as the Defendant's voice, didn't you?

# 63 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That second voice I heard in that alley?

# 64 MR. DARDEN:

Yes, the voice of the older man?

# 65 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 66 MR. DARDEN:

The very angry voice?

# 67 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Could not recognize it. There was too much noise with the dogs. How can I recognize the voice? I don't know the man.

# 68 MR. DARDEN:

Mr. Heidstra, didn't you tell Patricia Baret that the voice that you heard was the voice of the Defendant's?

# 69 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never ever said that.

# 70 MR. DARDEN:

Didn't you tell Patricia Baret, "I know it was O.J. it had to be him"?

# 71 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, I never said that. Absurd, absurd.

# 72 MR. DARDEN:

Didn't you tell Miss Baret that exact same thing in July of 1994?

# 73 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I said to her in July?

# 74 MR. DARDEN:

Didn't you?

# 75 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I never said that to her, never ever. To nobody I have said that.

# 76 MR. DARDEN:

Yesterday when you were testifying you told us that you first heard the dog barking at about 10:30 or 10:35; is that correct?

# 77 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly, yes.

# 78 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And after you said 10:30 or 10:35, Mr. Cochran asked you a series of--

# 79 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, object. That misstates the evidence.

# 80 MR. DARDEN:

No, it doesn't.

# 81 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 82 MR. DARDEN:

And after you first said 10:30 or 10:35, Mr. Cochran asked you a series of questions about what you heard at 10:35; is that correct?

# 83 MR. HEIDSTRA:

What I heard, yes, exactly.

# 84 MR. DARDEN:

So when you testified yesterday that you first heard the dog barking at 10:30 or 10:35, what you meant to convey to us was that you were given us an approximate time; is that correct?

# 85 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of that question, your Honor. Misstates what he said yesterday.

# 86 THE COURT:

Overruled. You can answer the question.

# 87 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, it was about that time, between 10:30 and 10:35.

# 88 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. You didn't know the exact time that you first heard the dog barking, did you?

# 89 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, not exactly on the minute, no.

# 90 MR. DARDEN:

You didn't look at your watch when you first heard the dog barking?

# 91 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 92 MR. DARDEN:

By the way, how many watches do you wear?

# 93 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Just one. That is enough.

# 94 MR. DARDEN:

And after you heard that dog barking--sometime around 10:30 or 10:35, right?

# 95 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 96 MR. DARDEN:

--you already testified that you don't know whether the dog the been barking earlier. This is just the first time that you heard the dog barking?

# 97 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered.

# 98 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 99 MR. DARDEN:

Correct?

# 100 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, yes.

# 101 MR. DARDEN:

Then you backed up and you walked down the alleyway, right?

# 102 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, right.

# 103 MR. DARDEN:

Then you heard the two voices, correct?

# 104 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 105 MR. DARDEN:

When you heard these voices, you didn't hear three voices?

# 106 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Two voices.

# 107 MR. DARDEN:

You didn't hear the voices of three men?

# 108 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not--I heard only two voices.

# 109 MR. DARDEN:

Just two?

# 110 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Two voices.

# 111 MR. DARDEN:

And you continued to walk down the alleyway; is that correct?

# 112 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I stopped to listen to the voices for a minute.

# 113 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Now, to go back to the time for a moment when you met me on May 29, 1995, that is memorial day, right?

# 114 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 115 MR. DARDEN:

You told my investigators, Mr. Stevens and Mr. Thompson, that you heard the dog barking at 10:30; is that correct?

# 116 MR. HEIDSTRA:

10:35, 10:30, 10:35.

# 117 MR. DARDEN:

Didn't you tell them that you heard the dog barking at 10:30?

# 118 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't recall that.

# 119 MR. DARDEN:

Do you recall telling them 10:30 and not qualifying that in any shape or form?

# 120 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered, your Honor.

# 121 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 122 MR. HEIDSTRA:

About 10:30, 35. I might have said 10:30, but it was between 10:30 and 10:35.

# 123 MR. DARDEN:

It could have been 10:25 or 10:30, couldn't it?

# 124 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no, never said that.

# 125 MR. DARDEN:

You never said that?

# 126 MR. HEIDSTRA:

25, no.

# 127 MR. DARDEN:

You never said 10:25?

# 128 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 129 MR. DARDEN:

But you never checked your watch?

# 130 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered, your Honor.

# 131 MR. DARDEN:

After you left the house, correct?

# 132 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered.

# 133 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 134 MR. DARDEN:

You never checked your watch after you left the house, did you?

# 135 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 136 MR. DARDEN:

Now, the clock that you looked at, when you noted it was 10:15 before leaving the house, where is that clock located?

# 137 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not the clock; my watch.

# 138 MR. DARDEN:

Looked at your watch?

# 139 MR. HEIDSTRA:

This watch.

# 140 MR. DARDEN:

That is a nice watch. Can I just see it for a moment? That is a Puget quartz watch, right?

# 141 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 142 MR. DARDEN:

And when prior to June 12th, 1994, had you set the watch?

# 143 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It is a battery. I never set it. It goes automatic.

# 144 MR. DARDEN:

Never set the watch?

# 145 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, never.

# 146 MR. DARDEN:

What about daylight savings time, do you--when that occurs do you?

# 147 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, that might have happened, yeah, I change it.

# 148 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. So you do reset the watch sometime?

# 149 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, yeah.

# 150 MR. DARDEN:

And that watch that you are wearing, that is not a digital watch, is it?

# 151 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 152 MR. DARDEN:

And that watch doesn't have the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 around the face of it, does it?

# 153 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 154 MR. DARDEN:

It has some thin lines?

# 155 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, right, right.

# 156 MR. DARDEN:

Right?

# 157 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 158 MR. DARDEN:

And so when you tell us that you heard the dog barking at 10:30, that is an approximation, isn't it?

# 159 MR. HEIDSTRA:

10:30, 10:35, around that time.

# 160 MR. DARDEN:

Could it have been 10:29 or 10:34?

# 161 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no. It could be just a little before maybe, yes, but I know my walk with the dogs.

# 162 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Is that what you are basing this timing on, your walks with the dogs?

# 163 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly. As a routine I do it for years and I know exactly the time.

# 164 MR. DARDEN:

Doesn't it only take you ten minutes to walk to that alley with the dogs?

# 165 MR. HEIDSTRA:

To where?

# 166 MR. DARDEN:

Ten minutes? Doesn't it usually only take minutes to get to that alley when you walk your dogs?

# 167 MR. HEIDSTRA:

With my old dog who has arthritis, how could I do that? It is impossible.

# 168 MR. DARDEN:

You are walking around the block, right?

# 169 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Around the block, yes.

# 170 MR. DARDEN:

You are not walking to Santa Monica or someplace like that?

# 171 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. The dog take me a long time. Your investigator--you saw my dog, didn't you?

# 172 MR. DARDEN:

Let me ask you this, if I can: Since you work next door to the Defendant's home at Rockingham, you have driven to the Salingers, right?

# 173 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 174 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Right next door to the Defendant's house, right?

# 175 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 176 MR. DARDEN:

You can drive from your house to the Defendant's house in four minutes?

# 177 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not during the week.

# 178 MR. DARDEN:

But how about on a Sunday night?

# 179 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of that question, your Honor. No showing--no foundation.

# 180 THE COURT:

Rephrase the question.

# 181 MR. DARDEN:

Well, the traffic is fairly heavy during the week?

# 182 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 183 MR. DARDEN:

But that night, that Sunday night, the traffic was very light, wasn't it?

# 184 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 185 MR. DARDEN:

And the night was very quiet?

# 186 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 187 MR. DARDEN:

Not much traffic on the street at all, right?

# 188 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, un-unh.

# 189 MR. DARDEN:

And you saw no other cars other than that--well, you saw two cars and this white--

# 190 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 191 MR. DARDEN:

--vehicle?

# 192 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 193 MR. DARDEN:

Would you agree that someone leaving that intersection at Dorothy and Bundy could drive to 360 Rockingham in four minutes or less?

# 194 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of that question, your Honor. Calls for speculation and foundation.

# 195 THE COURT:

Overruled. Overruled.

# 196 MR. HEIDSTRA:

If he is speeding, yes, maybe he could do that, yeah.

# 197 MR. DARDEN:

And the white vehicle that you saw accelerated rapidly as it turned the corner; is that correct?

# 198 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, object to the form of that question. It misstates the testimony is.

# 199 THE COURT:

Sustained. Rephrase the question.

# 200 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. How would you describe the way the white vehicle took off when it made that right turn at Dorothy and Bundy?

# 201 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It stopped quickly and then it accelerated quick into Bundy.

# 202 MR. DARDEN:

Do you usually watch the same news station every night?

# 203 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Mostly channel 7, I guess.

# 204 MR. DARDEN:

And who was doing the news that night June 12th on channel 7?

# 205 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't remember that. I don't remember by name the people.

# 206 MR. DARDEN:

Is that the channel that you watched, that is, channel 7?

# 207 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It could have been 7, yeah. It should have been 7.

# 208 MR. DARDEN:

Is that the channel that you watched the night of June 12th?

# 209 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I'm quite sure it was.

# 210 MR. DARDEN:

Had you watched the basketball game earlier that day?

# 211 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't remember--there was a basketball game? I don't remember that.

# 212 MR. DARDEN:

You do like basketball, though?

# 213 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I love it.

# 214 MR. DARDEN:

You don't recall that the Houston Rockets were playing the championship series that day?

# 215 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Don't recall. I like it, but I don't recall that at all. I must have watched it.

# 216 MR. DARDEN:

And you told us that when you got home they were just announcing the news; is that correct?

# 217 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Correct.

# 218 MR. DARDEN:

They were giving the teaser, sort of letting you know what was coming up on the news that night?

# 219 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, right.

# 220 MR. DARDEN:

Doesn't it sometimes occur, that is that teaser, doesn't it sometimes occur before eleven o'clock?

# 221 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't think--no. They were just announcing the--they were--the eleven o'clock news.

# 222 MR. DARDEN:

You just told us it was going to be coming up on the eleven o'clock news?

# 223 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no.

# 224 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of that question, your Honor. Argumentative.

# 225 THE COURT:

Overruled. Actually, rephrase the question.

# 226 MR. DARDEN:

I asked you a moment ago if they were giving the teaser sort of to let you know what was coming up on the news that night.

# 227 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, it was not like that.

# 228 MR. DARDEN:

And your response to that question was right, right?

# 229 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Then I misunderstood you because it was starting. They announced the news. That is my testimony.

# 230 MR. DARDEN:

So that the record is clear, didn't you just testify a moment ago that the--that you saw the teaser on TV when you came into the house?

# 231 MR. COCHRAN:

Asked and answered, your Honor.

# 232 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 233 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I misunderstood. The news was just starting. It was just starting. They announce the news. It was not that the news was coming. It was already there.

# 234 MR. DARDEN:

And you don't know who the anchors were that night?

# 235 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, I don't. I don't remember. I don't know the names.

# 236 MR. DARDEN:

Now, at some point you realized that Nicole Brown had been killed, murdered over at the condo, correct?

# 237 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 238 MR. DARDEN:

Did you over there and watch and see what the police were doing over there?

# 239 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. I heard it in the morning when I was shaving myself, double murders on Bundy, and the helicopters were all over Brentwood.

# 240 MR. DARDEN:

Did you see police cars when you went outside?

# 241 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. I heard only the helicopters as it was going on--was going on, and then I turned the TV on.

# 242 MR. DARDEN:

And you knew that you had been over at Bundy at--

# 243 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes. When I turned the TV on and I saw the news and the gate, I was in shock. I said, "That's what happened last night."

# 244 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And you realized then that you had heard someone yelling "Hey, hey, hey," and the very angry voice of an older black man?

# 245 MR. COCHRAN:

I object to the form of that question, your Honor.

# 246 THE COURT:

Sustained. Rephrase the question.

# 247 MR. DARDEN:

Well, you realized that you heard someone yelling "Hey, hey, hey," and a second voice, correct?

# 248 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 249 MR. DARDEN:

And you realized then I take it that you heard these voices coming from 875 south Bundy, right?

# 250 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 251 MR. DARDEN:

And you knew that you had heard this gate slam at 875 south Bundy, right?

# 252 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 253 MR. DARDEN:

You knew Nicole Brown lived there, right?

# 254 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I have seen her before there.

# 255 MR. DARDEN:

You knew she was murdered, right?

# 256 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 257 MR. DARDEN:

You knew the police were investigating the murder?

# 258 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 259 MR. DARDEN:

I take it that you went over and you talked to the police?

# 260 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I didn't talk to the police there, no.

# 261 MR. DARDEN:

You didn't go over to the police officers and tell them what you heard?

# 262 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 263 MR. DARDEN:

You didn't telephone the police station?

# 264 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. Came to that Patty, that secretary.

# 265 MR. DARDEN:

Patricia Baret?

# 266 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Patricia, sorry.

# 267 MR. DARDEN:

The first person you told anything about this was Patricia Baret?

# 268 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Her boss, the doctor, and he give it to her--told her. Because she was a friend of Goldman she told me so she called the detectives up that she had somebody who knows who had information so they--

# 269 MR. DARDEN:

Do you watch any news stations other than channel 7?

# 270 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes. Sometimes other ones, too.

# 271 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. You watch channel 9?

# 272 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Too much, no.

# 273 MR. DARDEN:

13, 11?

# 274 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Mostly 2, 4 and 7 and CNN.

# 275 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Is it possible that the station you watched that night, that Sunday night, was not channel 7?

# 276 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, I'm quite sure it was 7.

# 277 MR. DARDEN:

When you say you are quite sure, you are positive?

# 278 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not positive, but it was very--quite sure that is always I watch it at night, 7.

# 279 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Well, when you say that you are quite sure and not positive, does that mean then that you have some question in your own mind as to which station it was that you watched.

# 280 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

# 281 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 282 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, always it is channel 7 for me to watch it.

# 283 MR. DARDEN:

Well, if you always watch channel 7 news--

# 284 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Most of the time, yes.

# 285 MR. DARDEN:

If you usually watch channel 7 news--

# 286 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 287 MR. DARDEN:

--you must know who the anchors are on the weekend, right?

# 288 MR. COCHRAN:

I object to that, argumentative.

# 289 THE COURT:

We have asked the question already.

# 290 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Thank you, your Honor.

# 291 MR. DARDEN:

Mr. Heidstra, you expected to be called by the Prosecution in this case, didn't you?

# 292 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, I was--I thought so, maybe they would call me.

# 293 MR. DARDEN:

When I say "Called"--

# 294 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Subpoenaed.

# 295 MR. DARDEN:

--you expected to be called to testify in this trial as a Prosecution witness; is that correct?

# 296 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 297 MR. DARDEN:

And when you realized that you were not going to be called to testify you were surprised; is that right?

# 298 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, I was very surprised about it because they called me a crucial witness.

# 299 MR. DARDEN:

Somebody called you a crucial witness?

# 300 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 301 MR. DARDEN:

A critical witness?

# 302 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Crucial witness.

# 303 MR. DARDEN:

Mr. Bailey called you a critical witness, didn't he?

# 304 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't recall that at all.

# 305 MR. DARDEN:

Pardon me?

# 306 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't recall that.

# 307 MR. DARDEN:

Well, don't you have in your possession a letter that Mr. Bailey gave you?

# 308 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, yeah, I got a letter.

# 309 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. It is an eight-and-a-half-by-ten letter?

# 310 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, right, right. It is in a plastic--

# 311 MR. DARDEN:

It is a letter from Mr. Bailey to you?

# 312 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. It said, "Robert."

# 313 MR. DARDEN:

Do you have that letter here with you today?

# 314 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 315 MR. DARDEN:

Did you have that letter laminated, Mr. Heidstra?

# 316 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, they gave it to me like that.

# 317 MR. DARDEN:

They gave you a laminated letter?

# 318 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 319 MR. DARDEN:

Do you know why?

# 320 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No idea.

# 321 MR. DARDEN:

In any event, you expected that you could make some money in this case, as a result of this case, if you were called to testify by the Prosecution; is that correct?

# 322 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 323 MR. DARDEN:

And in fact didn't you tell Mr. Field that someone in the D.A.'s office told you you could make money?

# 324 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Nobody--D.A.? Nobody told me that.

# 325 MR. DARDEN:

No one in the D.A.'s office ever told you you could make money if you testified in this case?

# 326 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. I only talked to Mr. Payne and he never told me that.

# 327 MR. DARDEN:

Didn't you tell Mr. Field that someone in the D.A.'s office told you you can make money?

# 328 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I never told Mr. Field that at all.

# 329 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 330 MR. DARDEN:

Isn't it true, Mr. Heidstra, that after you realized that you wouldn't be called by the Prosecution that you decided that you would do whatever you could to make sure you were called by the Defense in this case?

# 331 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not at all. Not at all.

# 332 MR. DARDEN:

Well, after I visited you on May 29th, 1995--

# 333 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 334 MR. DARDEN:

--you telephoned the Defense, didn't you?

# 335 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure, yes.

# 336 MR. DARDEN:

And you told the Defense that I had been there?

# 337 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 338 MR. DARDEN:

And you told the Defense you didn't like me very much?

# 339 MR. HEIDSTRA:

You were not very pleasant with me.

# 340 MR. DARDEN:

Can I use that word, your Honor?

# 341 THE COURT:

Not pleasant?

# 342 MS. CLARK:

No, the word.

# 343 MR. DARDEN:

The other word.

# 344 THE COURT:

Yes, you may.

# 345 MR. DARDEN:

You told the Defense that you weren't impressed with me?

# 346 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not impressed. You were not very pleasant, very cool with me.

KEY QUOTE

# 347 MR. DARDEN:

You told the Defense that I was an asshole?

# 348 MR. COCHRAN:

Just a moment. I misstate--counsel misstated. May I see counsel?

# 349 THE COURT:

Yes.

# 350 MR. COCHRAN:

Counsel.

# 351 THE COURT:

Hold on. Why don't you confer with Mr. Cochran for a moment.

# 352 (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

# 353 MR. DARDEN:

I'm sorry. Mr. Cochran is correct. Thank you. I apologize.

# 354 MR. COCHRAN:

Your witness.

# 355 MR. DARDEN:

No, your witness.

# 356 THE COURT:

Mr. Darden.

# 357 MR. DARDEN:

Yes.

# 358 MR. DARDEN:

Did you tell Patricia Baret that you thought I was an asshole?

# 359 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never, never said that at all.

# 360 MR. DARDEN:

Did you tell Patricia Baret that you were going to come here and testify?

# 361 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Do you want me to answer?

# 362 MR. DARDEN:

As a witness subpoenaed by the Defense?

# 363 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 364 MR. DARDEN:

And you were going to help the Defendant by your testimony?

# 365 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Give my testimony. I didn't say how, but I said just give the truth what I know.

# 366 MR. DARDEN:

You told Miss Baret that you expected the Defendant to show you his appreciation, didn't you?

# 367 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not at all. I was on their side, so I guess maybe they appreciate that I was on their side.

# 368 MR. DARDEN:

I'm sorry, could you repeat that answer?

# 369 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I will believe that they appreciated that I was on their side, that I testified for them.

KEY QUOTE

# 370 MR. DARDEN:

Didn't you tell Miss Baret, that he, O.J. Simpson, was going to kiss you when he gets out of prison?

# 371 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't know where she gets this from. This is absurd, absurd.

KEY QUOTE

# 372 MR. DARDEN:

You told Miss Baret that you are going to be his witness, the Defendant's witness, didn't you?

# 373 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yeah. I was on the side--subpoenaed by the Defense.

# 374 MR. DARDEN:

And you told Miss Baret that it is because of you that the Defendant is going to go free, didn't you?

# 375 MR. HEIDSTRA:

How do I know that? How could I know that?

# 376 MR. DARDEN:

And you told Miss Baret, "I'm going to make money when all of this is finished"?

# 377 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It is a joke. He said maybe I make that money.

# 378 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 379 MR. DARDEN:

Mr. Heidstra, regardless of whether you heard the dog bark at 10:35, 10:30 or 10:40, there is still sufficient time for someone to drive from 875 Bundy--

# 380 MR. COCHRAN:

I object to the form of this question. Object to the form of this question.

# 381 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 382 MR. DARDEN:

If someone left 875 south Bundy at 10:35--

# 383 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of the question.

# 384 MR. DARDEN:

--would they have enough time to drive to 360 north Rockingham and arrive by 10:52?

# 385 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, I object to the form of the question. Calls for speculation.

# 386 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 387 MR. COCHRAN:

And no facts in evidence.

# 388 THE COURT:

Overruled. He is familiar with the two locations.

# 389 MR. DARDEN:

Yes?

# 390 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes. You could do it, yes, sure.

# 391 MR. DARDEN:

You could arrive there by 10:45, correct?

# 392 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right, yes.

# 393 MR. DARDEN:

May I have one moment, your Honor? I'm almost done.

# 394 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 395 MR. DARDEN:

Now, when you first came forward and spoke to the police, did you consider yourself then and at that time a Prosecution witness?

# 396 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, sure, sure.

# 397 MR. DARDEN:

And after you realized that you weren't going to be testifying did you--did you give others more information? Did you give somebody else some more information?

# 398 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no, unless--until the Defense came.

# 399 MR. DARDEN:

Now, have you ever visited Mr. Cochran's office?

# 400 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, recently one time.

# 401 MR. DARDEN:

When was that?

# 402 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Well, that has been a week ago or something.

# 403 MR. DARDEN:

What day of the week was that?

# 404 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, I don't even remember any more.

# 405 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Was that the first time?

# 406 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 407 MR. DARDEN:

Was that the first time you had ever met Mr. Cochran?

# 408 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 409 MR. DARDEN:

Now, you had already told us that you met Mr. McKenna three times?

# 410 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Three or four times.

# 411 MR. DARDEN:

Three or four time?

# 412 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, yeah.

# 413 MR. DARDEN:

And you met Mr. Bailey once?

# 414 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Once.

# 415 MR. DARDEN:

And you met Mr. Cochran once?

# 416 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Once, yes.

# 417 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Have you met any of the other lawyers in Mr. Cochran's office?

# 418 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Mr. Douglas.

# 419 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Were you interviewed by Mr. Douglas?

# 420 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, we just shaked hands and he talked a little French with me.

# 421 MR. DARDEN:

He talked a little what?

# 422 MR. HEIDSTRA:

French.

# 423 MR. DARDEN:

Mr. Douglas speaks French?

# 424 MR. HEIDSTRA:

A little bit, bonjour.

# 425 MR. DARDEN:

Not enough to order from a menu, right?

# 426 MR. HEIDSTRA:

He tried it. He tried it.

# 427 MR. DARDEN:

And when you spoke to Mr. McKenna, did he take notes?

# 428 MR. HEIDSTRA:

In the office you mean?

# 429 MR. DARDEN:

Well, when you met him out on the street did he take notes?

# 430 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, he took a few notes, yes.

# 431 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And did you read those notes after Mr. McKenna took them?

# 432 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no, no.

# 433 MR. DARDEN:

Did Mr. McKenna record your statement?

# 434 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I never saw that, no. I don't think so.

# 435 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Each time that you saw Mr. McKenna did he take notes?

# 436 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no.

# 437 MR. DARDEN:

Is it fair to say that after we failed to call you to testify in our case that you then decided that you would go over to the Defense?

# 438 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, they came to me. I never decided myself.

# 439 MR. DARDEN:

Have you ever had any fights or arguments with Patricia Baret?

# 440 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. Only one thing I don't like from her is that when I come in the office she speaks always French to me in front of other people who speak English, and I think it is very rude and I didn't like that at all.

# 441 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. You are French and she speaks French to you and you don't like that?

# 442 MR. HEIDSTRA:

In front of customers and people and I don't like that at all. It is pretty rude.

# 443 MR. DARDEN:

And when you spoke to Mr. Thompson and Mr. Stevens, my investigators and myself, on May 29th, you told us that the vehicle you saw was a white Bronco or a Blazer; is that correct?

# 444 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I didn't say Bronco. It looks like a wagon, Blazer like car, like I said in the testimony.

# 445 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And Mr. Field, the man whose Mercedes you detail--

# 446 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, right.

# 447 MR. DARDEN:

--you detail his car on occasion?

# 448 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 449 MR. DARDEN:

He lives in Beverly Hills?

# 450 MR. HEIDSTRA:

In Malibu and Westwood he has a place.

# 451 MR. DARDEN:

He has two homes?

# 452 MR. HEIDSTRA:

He was a condo in Westwood.

# 453 MR. DARDEN:

And you have spoken to him about your observations that night; is that correct?

# 454 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. A long time ago probably.

# 455 MR. DARDEN:

And didn't you tell Mr. Field that the vehicle that you saw that night was a white Bronco?

# 456 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I said a white car, white Blazer. I never said that. I can't recall this at all. If he interpreted that it was a Bronco, that is his.

# 457 MR. DARDEN:

I asked you earlier if you had been interviewed in the media and you told me that you had; is that correct?

# 458 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Pardon?

# 459 MR. DARDEN:

You have been interviewed for television?

# 460 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, earlier after the murders.

# 461 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Were you interviewed this past week?

# 462 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 463 MR. DARDEN:

Have you been interviewed by reporters from channel 2?

# 464 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. Well, a long time ago.

# 465 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Who was that?

# 466 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That was just after Mr. Cochran mentioned my name in the opening statement of the trial.

# 467 MR. DARDEN:

Have you been interviewed by newspaper reporters?

# 468 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, one, Newsweek.

# 469 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And you have actually had your photograph in life magazine?

# 470 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. That was a surprise for me.

# 471 MR. DARDEN:

A photographer came by from life magazine and took your picture?

# 472 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I never saw him. He took a picture of me and the dogs, walking the dogs with Mr. McKenna and we were going around the block for the timing.

# 473 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 474 MR. DARDEN:

Thank you, your Honor. That is all I have right now.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Robert Heidstra

I will believe that they appreciated that I was on their side, that I testified for them.

Heidstra inadvertently confirms bias — he saw himself as a partisan defense witness, not a neutral fact witness.

Christopher Darden

Didn't you tell Miss Baret that he, O.J. Simpson, was going to kiss you when he gets out of prison?

Darden uses Baret as an impeachment vehicle, painting Heidstra as a self-interested witness who expected personal reward from the defendant.

Robert Heidstra

I don't know where she gets this from. This is absurd, absurd.

Heidstra's repeated denial in the face of specific attributed statements underscores the credibility battle at the heart of this cross.

Lance A. Ito

Wait until you see baseball.

A rare moment of levity — the judge riffs on Heidstra calling American football 'boring,' drawing a laugh from the witness.

Robert Heidstra

You were not very pleasant, very cool with me.

Heidstra's characterization of Darden's May 29 visit — leading to the 'asshole' exchange — reveals the personal animosity that drove Heidstra to contact the defense.

Evidence (4)

Defense 1239

Aerial/site photograph showing the Salinger residence adjacent to OJ Simpson's Rockingham home

discussed to establish Heidstra's familiarity with the neighborhood

Informal

Heidstra's analog Puget quartz watch — no numerals on the face, only tick marks

physically examined by Darden in court; used to undermine precision of Heidstra's 10:30/10:35 time claim

Informal

Laminated letter from F. Lee Bailey to Heidstra

referenced to show defense courted witness; Heidstra confirmed he possessed it but did not bring it to court

Informal

White vehicle (described as Blazer-type) seen accelerating at Dorothy and Bundy

discussed; Darden attempted to get Heidstra to call it a Bronco — Heidstra resisted

Notable Exchanges (5)

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Darden asks if Heidstra told Patricia Baret 'I know it was O.J., it had to be him' — Heidstra denies it as 'absurd.' Darden then layers additional Baret-attributed statements: that OJ would kiss Heidstra when freed, that Heidstra would make money, that Darden was an asshole. Heidstra denies each.

heated

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra•Johnnie Cochran•Lance A. Ito

Darden initially attributes the 'asshole' comment to the Defense (Cochran objects, sidebar held); Darden corrects himself and redirects the question to Patricia Baret. The sidebar and correction mid-examination create visible friction.

chaotic/revealing

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Darden establishes that someone leaving 875 Bundy at 10:35 could reach 360 Rockingham by 10:45 or 10:52 — Heidstra agrees. This uses the defense's own timeline witness to confirm the prosecution's window.

strategic

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Darden probes Heidstra's watch — an analog with no numerals — and the fact he never checked it after leaving his house, undermining the precision of his 10:30/10:35 testimony.

methodical

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Heidstra admits he never contacted police after learning of the Bundy murders, and only came forward through a doctor who knew Patricia Baret, who knew Ron Goldman.

revealing

Light Moments (4)

Lance A. Ito

Heidstra calls American football 'boring.' Judge Ito responds: 'Wait until you see baseball.' Heidstra: 'You are right, Judge.'

Robert Heidstra

Darden asks if Heidstra wears more than one watch. Heidstra: 'Just one. That is enough.'

Robert Heidstra

On Carl Douglas speaking French: 'A little bit, bonjour.' Darden: 'Not enough to order from a menu, right?' Heidstra: 'He tried it. He tried it.'

Christopher Darden

After Darden corrects himself on the 'asshole' attribution, Cochran says 'Your witness' and Darden simultaneously says 'No, your witness' — both trying to hand the examination back to the other.

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ Robert Heidstra

Prior inconsistent statement via third-party witness

Darden repeatedly confronts Heidstra with statements allegedly made to Patricia Baret: that 'I know it was O.J.,' that OJ would kiss him when freed, that he'd make money, and that Darden was an asshole. Heidstra denies all of them.

⚔ Robert Heidstra

Bias / financial motive

Darden establishes that Heidstra expected to be called as a prosecution witness, expected to profit from the case, and — after being passed over — actively contacted the defense and aligned himself with them.

⚔ Robert Heidstra

Unreliable timing testimony

Darden shows Heidstra's watch has no numerals (only tick marks), that he never checked it after leaving the house, and that his stated times shift between 10:25, 10:30, and 10:35 across different tellings — making the central timing claim imprecise.

⚔ Robert Heidstra

Failure to come forward / selective disclosure

Heidstra never contacted police after learning of the murders, did not go to the crime scene, and only came forward through an indirect personal chain — suggesting his role as a witness was shaped by external relationships rather than civic duty.

Witness Demeanor

Heidstra frequently interrupts Darden mid-question despite being reminded not to

Heidstra is combative on denial of Baret statements — repeating 'absurd, absurd' and 'never ever'

Heidstra volunteers information unprompted (mentions his arthritic dog, mentions the doctor and Goldman connection)

Heidstra is relaxed enough to joke with the judge about sports

Heidstra's admission that he was 'on their side' appears inadvertent — not defensive

Objections

15 objections (3 sustained, 9 overruled)

Proceeding 6771 • 474 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103