Cross-examination of Robert Heidstra (part 2)

📄 Cross-examination of Robert Heidstra (part 2) — Wednesday, July 12, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\12\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-ROBERT-HE.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 113 of 167

◀ Counsel discussion Sidebar: cross-examination question ▶

Witness: Robert Heidstra
Examiner: Christopher Darden
Called by: Defense • Date: Wednesday, July 12, 1995 • Utterances: 241

Darden cross-examines defense witness Robert Heidstra, attempting to undermine his 10:15 PM departure time and cast doubt on his ability to know when the Akita began barking. The examination ends explosively when Darden asks whether the second voice Heidstra heard sounded 'like the voice of a black man,' prompting Cochran's sustained objection, Heidstra's indignant denial, and Judge Ito clearing the jury from the courtroom.

# 1 MR. DARDEN:

Mr. Heidstra, it is your testimony that you usually walk your dog at ten o'clock; is that correct?

# 2 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That is my routine, yes.

# 3 MR. DARDEN:

But on this particular night you say you were running a little late?

# 4 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. I was reading the paper and I didn't look at the time.

# 5 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. So you got up and you left the house?

# 6 MR. HEIDSTRA:

My dog gave me the signal and I look at my watch and it was quarter past 10:00.

# 7 MR. DARDEN:

Looked at your watch?

# 8 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 9 MR. DARDEN:

And your watch said a quarter past 10:00?

# 10 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, sure, sure.

# 11 MR. DARDEN:

Okay.

# 12 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I knew it because I was late. I said, you are right, we have to go, it is quarter past 10:00.

# 13 MR. DARDEN:

When you spoke to the police on June 21st, 1994, did you tell them that you looked at your watch before leaving?

# 14 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 15 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of the question, your Honor.

# 16 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 17 MR. DARDEN:

All right. So it was a quarter past 10:00 when you walked outside?

# 18 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Absolutely.

# 19 MR. DARDEN:

You took one of the dogs?

# 20 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Two.

# 21 MR. DARDEN:

You took both dogs?

# 22 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Both of them.

# 23 MR. DARDEN:

Were those dogs on leashes?

# 24 MR. HEIDSTRA:

One--the older would be--I take on my leash. He doesn't walk too good.

# 25 MR. DARDEN:

Isn't it true that you never walk your dogs on a leash?

# 26 MR. HEIDSTRA:

One I have on the leash, but the other one is always on the leash because he won't come with me, simple as that.

# 27 MR. DARDEN:

So you do always walk one of the dogs on a leash?

# 28 MR. HEIDSTRA:

The older one because he is too slow. I have to pull him with me.

# 29 MR. DARDEN:

Is that yes?

# 30 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 31 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Now, about this routine, this ten o'clock routine that you have in terms of walking the dog? Isn't it true that you walk those dogs at any given time during the night; is that correct?

# 32 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no, no.

# 33 MR. DARDEN:

Isn't it true that you are always outside walking around with one of those dogs?

# 34 MR. HEIDSTRA:

When I'm at home and I don't work, I do all the time, but when I work and I come home at six o'clock, I am immediately out.

# 35 MR. DARDEN:

You walk the dog at least four times a night, don't you?

# 36 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, sir. I walk them at six o'clock and then at eight o'clock I walk the younger dog because he needs more exercise, and then at ten o'clock I walk the two a short walk around the block.

# 37 MR. DARDEN:

Don't you walk the dogs at midnight sometimes on occasion?

# 38 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Never. Midnight, no, I go to sleep.

# 39 MR. DARDEN:

So no one could possibly see you then out walking the dog at midnight; is that correct?

# 40 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form. Calls for speculation.

# 41 THE COURT:

Sustained. Rephrase the question.

# 42 MR. DARDEN:

At any rate, you say you left at 10:15?

# 43 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 44 MR. DARDEN:

It was your intention at that time to walk around the block; is that correct?

# 45 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 46 MR. DARDEN:

That is the route you usually walk?

# 47 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 48 MR. DARDEN:

And so as you left your apartment you went east on Dorothy?

# 49 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes.

# 50 MR. DARDEN:

And you went down to the corner?

# 51 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 52 MR. DARDEN:

By the way, you--strike that. Sometimes you don't actually walk the dog, correct? Sometimes you just let the dogs run around in front of the building?

# 53 MR. HEIDSTRA:

The younger one stays in front of the building sometime. He is very disciplined.

# 54 MR. DARDEN:

You do that often, don't you?

# 55 MR. HEIDSTRA:

When I'm home I let them out and the door is always open.

# 56 MR. DARDEN:

You let the dogs run around in lieu of taking them for a walk?

# 57 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Instead of a walk?

# 58 MR. DARDEN:

Yes.

# 59 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no.

# 60 MR. DARDEN:

All your neighbors complain about you letting those dogs run around the front of the apartment, don't they?

# 61 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. He is just in front of my apartment and I never had a complaint from anybody, never.

# 62 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. So you leave your building and you walk over to--what street did you walk over to?

# 63 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That night?

# 64 MR. DARDEN:

Yes.

# 65 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I went to Westgate.

# 66 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. You went to Westgate and you made a left?

# 67 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I went north on Westgate.

# 68 MR. DARDEN:

When you got to the corner, what did you do?

# 69 MR. HEIDSTRA:

On Gorham--I went west on Gorham.

# 70 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. So you made a left at Gorham?

# 71 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 72 MR. DARDEN:

And you went west?

# 73 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I went down the block of Gorham.

# 74 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. You walked over to Bundy, correct?

# 75 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 76 MR. DARDEN:

And it was as you approached Bundy that you heard a dog barking?

# 77 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No. It was when I reached the corner of Bundy and Gorham, what comes together, from nowhere hell broke loose with the Akita. From nowhere he start to bark.

# 78 MR. DARDEN:

That was the first time that you heard the dog barking?

# 79 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes. I was very surprised. It was so quiet at night as can be around there.

# 80 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. You hadn't heard the dog barking prior to that?

# 81 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sometime before I walk with my dogs across the street on Bundy he was barking behind that gate.

# 82 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. But let's talk about that night, June 13th.

# 83 MR. HEIDSTRA:

That night, sorry, yeah.

# 84 MR. DARDEN:

You hadn't heard the dog barking prior to your arrival at the corner?

# 85 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 86 MR. DARDEN:

Is that correct?

# 87 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Absolutely.

# 88 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Now, was the barking loud?

# 89 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Oh, yes, panicking or something or confused.

# 90 MR. DARDEN:

Now, prior to that--well, strike that. Was the dog barking at 10:10?

# 91 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I was--I was still in my apartment. I never heard a dog bark at that time.

# 92 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. At 10:15 you were approximately a block away from 875 Bundy; is that correct?

# 93 MR. HEIDSTRA:

10:15 I left my apartment. 10:15 I was just in front of my apartment.

# 94 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. So you were about a block away?

# 95 MR. HEIDSTRA:

A block away, yeah, sure.

# 96 MR. DARDEN:

Now, you don't know whether or not that dog--that dog's bark had been softer--softer prior to 10:30?

# 97 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to that, your Honor. Calls for speculation.

# 98 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 99 MR. DARDEN:

Correct?

# 100 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I never heard it, no, no, never heard the dog barking.

# 101 MR. DARDEN:

Have you heard that saying, you know, when a tree falls in the forest there is no one there to hear it, it doesn't make noise?

# 102 MR. COCHRAN:

I object to this poetry.

KEY QUOTE

# 103 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 104 MR. DARDEN:

A poor attempt at poetry, if that is what it is, but have you ever heard that saying?

# 105 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 106 MR. DARDEN:

Well, had the dog's bark been softer prior to 10:30?

# 107 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 108 MR. DARDEN:

You wouldn't have heard it, correct?

# 109 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, that is speculation.

# 110 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 111 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I have never heard.

# 112 MR. COCHRAN:

Just a moment.

# 113 THE COURT:

Wait. Proceed.

# 114 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. You don't know if the dog had been barking prior to your leaving your house?

# 115 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, not at all. I didn't hear nothing.

# 116 MR. DARDEN:

All you can tell us is when you first heard the dog bark; is that correct?

# 117 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Exactly.

# 118 MR. DARDEN:

Don't know where the dog was at 10:15, do you?

# 119 MR. HEIDSTRA:

At ten--no.

# 120 MR. DARDEN:

10:15?

# 121 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no, no, no, no.

# 122 MR. DARDEN:

You don't know whether or not the dog was in front of 875 south Bundy at 10:15?

# 123 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, at all, no.

# 124 MR. DARDEN:

You don't know if the dog was upstairs in the condo with Sydney and Justin at 10:15?

# 125 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 126 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, this is speculation.

# 127 MR. DARDEN:

Is that correct?

# 128 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 129 MR. DARDEN:

You don't know if the dog was at the rear gate at 875 south Bundy at 10:15; is that correct?

# 130 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, because I just left my apartment. I don't know, no.

# 131 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. When dogs are in distress do they make noises other than just barking?

# 132 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I guess wailing maybe or something, you know.

# 133 MR. DARDEN:

Do they make a noise that sort of sounds like a cry?

# 134 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Could be, yeah, sure.

# 135 MR. DARDEN:

Sounds a bit like a human cry, doesn't it?

# 136 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 137 MR. DARDEN:

You don't know whether or not that Akita was standing over Nicole's body crying at 10:15, do you?

# 138 MR. COCHRAN:

Your Honor, I object to the form of that question.

# 139 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 140 MR. DARDEN:

And you can't testify to what other people heard? You can only testify to what you heard; is that correct?

# 141 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

# 142 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 143 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, that was the only one I've heard.

# 144 MR. DARDEN:

I'm sorry?

# 145 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I was there. I was the only one who heard that dog.

# 146 MR. DARDEN:

Well, my question to you is this: You can't testify to what other people may have heard?

# 147 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, sorry, no, no.

# 148 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 149 MR. DARDEN:

Now, you didn't see anyone walking on Gorham and Bundy, did you?

# 150 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Nobody, nobody. It was very quiet there.

# 151 MR. DARDEN:

You didn't see a woman in white pants walking at Gorham and Bundy?

# 152 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, I didn't see anybody.

# 153 MR. DARDEN:

Did you see a Nissan make a U-turn?

# 154 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Where? On Bundy?

# 155 MR. DARDEN:

Yes.

# 156 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no traffic at all. There was no traffic at all.

# 157 MR. DARDEN:

No traffic at all?

# 158 MR. HEIDSTRA:

When I came down from Gorham, no, nothing.

# 159 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. No vehicle traffic?

# 160 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not that I recall, no.

# 161 MR. DARDEN:

No pedestrian traffic?

# 162 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Not at all.

# 163 MR. DARDEN:

You didn't see two women standing outside talking about how eerie the night was?

# 164 MR. HEIDSTRA:

On Gorham you say or on Bundy?

# 165 MR. DARDEN:

On Bundy?

# 166 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, because I didn't--I just arrive on Bundy. I didn't go on Bundy.

# 167 MR. DARDEN:

How about on Gorham?

# 168 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Nobody was there. I didn't see anybody.

# 169 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 170 MR. DARDEN:

I take it that your dogs bark on occasion?

# 171 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yes, sometimes somebody at the door.

# 172 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. Has it been your experience that dogs bark and then stop and then bark again?

# 173 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

# 174 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 175 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, they bark, and they stop sometimes, sure.

# 176 MR. DARDEN:

And then they continue to bark; is that correct?

# 177 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. This was an unusual barking.

# 178 MR. DARDEN:

And the barking that you heard sounded as if the dog was in distress, didn't it?

# 179 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It was surprised, a surprised dog, confused, I would say, something like that.

# 180 MR. DARDEN:

Now, did you ever tell Mr. Bailey that you hoped to make money as a result of testifying in this case?

# 181 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no.

# 182 MR. DARDEN:

Did you tell Mr. McKenna that?

# 183 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No, no.

# 184 MR. DARDEN:

Now, you told us that you reached Bundy, you heard the Akita?

# 185 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah.

# 186 MR. DARDEN:

You turned around and you proceeded down the alley; is that correct?

# 187 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah. I decided to go in the alley.

# 188 MR. DARDEN:

And as you walked south down that alley you say you heard voices?

# 189 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Sure.

# 190 MR. DARDEN:

Now, the first voice that you heard, how did you describe that voice yesterday?

# 191 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It was, "Hey, hey, hey," three times.

# 192 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And did you say that that voice sounded like the voice of a young man?

# 193 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It was a clear voice, yes. Sounded like a clear voice.

# 194 MR. DARDEN:

Did the voice sound like the voice of a young man?

# 195 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of the question.

# 196 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't know how young.

# 197 MR. COCHRAN:

Calls for speculation.

# 198 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 199 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Can I answer?

# 200 THE COURT:

The answer--he has given an answer.

# 201 MR. DARDEN:

I didn't hear it, I'm sorry.

# 202 (Brief pause.)

# 203 MR. DARDEN:

Didn't you tell us yesterday that the voice was a youthful voice?

# 204 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, it sound like a young voice.

# 205 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. And when you heard that voice, you thought that that was the voice of a young white male, didn't you?

# 206 MR. COCHRAN:

Object to the form of that question, your Honor.

# 207 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 208 MR. COCHRAN:

Speculation, conclusion.

# 209 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 210 MR. COCHRAN:

How can he tell if it was a white man, your Honor?

# 211 THE COURT:

Counsel, overruled. Sit down. The way the question was phrased, if there is a question or statement that was made that says that, that is an appropriate question, counsel. Proceed.

# 212 MR. DARDEN:

The voice sounded like the voice of a white male?

# 213 MR. HEIDSTRA:

How could I say that is a white male? I don't know the voice. It could be anybody there.

KEY QUOTE

# 214 MR. DARDEN:

Did you ever tell Mr. Stevens, my investigator, that it sounded like a white male?

# 215 MR. HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 216 MR. DARDEN:

Never said that?

# 217 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I don't recall that at all. I said it was a clear voice but never what kind of white or brown or yellow.

# 218 MR. DARDEN:

And then there was that second voice, correct?

# 219 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Right.

# 220 MR. DARDEN:

And that second voice, that voice sounded deeper than the first voice, didn't it?

# 221 MR. HEIDSTRA:

A little bit, but I couldn't hardly hear it with the dogs, the commotion with two dogs there. It was very short.

# 222 MR. DARDEN:

Did you ever tell anyone that the second voice was a deep voice?

# 223 MR. HEIDSTRA:

It was deep, it was deeper than the other one other than, "Hey, hey, hey."

# 224 MR. DARDEN:

Okay. So the second voice was deeper than the first one?

# 225 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Yeah, a little deeper. I couldn't hardly hear it. It was just very short.

# 226 MR. DARDEN:

And the second voice that you heard, did it sound to you as if the person with the second voice was older than the person with the first voice?

# 227 MR. COCHRAN:

Calls for speculation, your Honor.

# 228 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 229 MR. DARDEN:

Okay.

# 230 THE COURT:

Foundational.

# 231 MR. DARDEN:

Can you tell us whether or not the second voice sounded more mature than the first voice?

# 232 MR. COCHRAN:

Same objection.

# 233 MR. HEIDSTRA:

I couldn't say that.

# 234 THE COURT:

Hold on.

# 235 MR. DARDEN:

The second voice that you heard sounded like the voice of a black man; is that correct?

KEY QUOTE

# 236 MR. COCHRAN:

Objected to, your Honor. I object.

# 237 THE COURT:

Sustained. Sustained.

# 238 MR. HEIDSTRA:

Of course not.

# 239 THE COURT:

Wait, WAIT.

# 240 MR. COCHRAN:

Just a moment.

# 241 THE COURT:

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, would you step into the jury room, please.

KEY QUOTE

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (5)

Johnnie Cochran

I object to this poetry.

Cochran's sardonic objection to Darden's 'if a tree falls in the forest' analogy — one of the more memorable courtroom one-liners of the trial.

Robert Heidstra

How could I say that is a white male? I don't know the voice. It could be anybody there.

Heidstra distances himself from any racial identification of the voice, undercutting Darden's attempt to frame a prior statement.

Christopher Darden

The second voice that you heard sounded like the voice of a black man; is that correct?

The question that ended the examination — an apparent attempt to get Heidstra to implicate OJ by voice, which backfired catastrophically, with the objection sustained and the jury sent out.

Robert Heidstra

Of course not.

Heidstra's spontaneous response after the sustained objection — spoken into the record before the judge could stop him, emphatic and defiant.

Lance A. Ito

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, would you step into the jury room, please.

The judge clearing the jury signals serious concern about the racial identification question — the examination ends in damage control.

Evidence (2)

Informal

Heidstra's June 21, 1994 police statement — Darden references it to challenge whether Heidstra actually said he checked his watch before leaving

challenged

Informal

Statement allegedly made to prosecution investigator Stevens — Darden claims Heidstra said one voice sounded like a white male

challenged, denied by witness

Notable Exchanges (4)

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Darden attempts to establish that the dog may have been barking before Heidstra left his apartment using the 'tree falls in the forest' hypothetical. Heidstra says he'd never heard the saying. Cochran objects to the 'poetry.' Judge overrules. The point lands as a logic argument but Heidstra never concedes it.

strategic

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra•Johnnie Cochran•Lance A. Ito

Darden pushes Heidstra on whether the second, deeper voice sounded like 'the voice of a black man.' Cochran objects and is sustained. Heidstra blurts 'Of course not.' Ito sends the jury out. The sequence suggests Darden was trying to use Heidstra to corroborate OJ's presence by voice — a strategy that collapsed in real time.

explosive

Christopher Darden•Robert Heidstra

Darden challenges Heidstra's claim that a prior investigator (Stevens) told him the voice sounded like a white male — Heidstra flatly denies saying anything about race: 'never what kind of white or brown or yellow.'

revealing

Johnnie Cochran•Lance A. Ito

After Ito overrules the young-white-male objection, Cochran argues from his seat: 'How can he tell if it was a white man, your Honor?' Ito firmly shuts him down: 'Counsel, overruled. Sit down.'

heated

Light Moments (1)

Johnnie Cochran / Christopher Darden

Darden attempts a philosophical hypothetical ('when a tree falls in the forest...') to make a point about the dog barking before Heidstra could hear it. Cochran objects: 'I object to this poetry.' Darden concedes it was 'a poor attempt at poetry.'

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ Robert Heidstra

prior inconsistent statement

Darden implies Heidstra told prosecution investigator Stevens that the first voice sounded like a white male — Heidstra denies it. Darden also questions whether Heidstra really checked his watch at 10:15 as stated, or whether he told police that in his June 21 statement.

⚔ Robert Heidstra

bias / financial motive

Darden asks whether Heidstra told defense attorneys Bailey or McKenna that he hoped to make money from testifying. Heidstra denies it.

⚔ Robert Heidstra

impeachment of routine / reliability

Darden challenges Heidstra's claim of a strict 10 PM dog-walking routine, suggesting he walks dogs at various hours including midnight. Heidstra pushes back but acknowledges multiple daily walks.

Witness Demeanor

(Brief pause.) — during Heidstra's answer about the younger-sounding voice

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.) — twice, mid-examination

Heidstra is emphatic and repetitive when denying claims: 'No, no, no, no, no' / 'Never. Midnight, no' — suggests irritation at being challenged

Heidstra asks 'Can I answer?' when Cochran and Ito are speaking over his response — polite but assertive

Objections

14 objections (5 sustained, 8 overruled)

Proceeding 6776 • 241 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103