Cross-examination of Michael Norris

📄 Cross-examination of Michael Norris — Wednesday, July 12, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\12\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-MICHAEL-N.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 113 of 167

◀ Direct examination of Michael Norris Redirect examination of Michael Norris ▶

Witness: Michael Norris
Examiner: Marcia Clark
Called by: Defense • Date: Wednesday, July 12, 1995 • Utterances: 216

Marcia Clark cross-examines Michael Norris, a defense witness who saw OJ Simpson at LAX on the night of June 12, 1994. Clark methodically establishes that Norris did not observe Simpson during the critical 10:00–11:00 PM window, had no reason to look for injuries, and would not have noticed blood or unusual behavior even if present. The cross also probes the bags Simpson was carrying, likely in reference to the mystery black bag, without producing a clear description.

# 1 MS. CLARK:

Thank you, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. CLARK

# 2 MS. CLARK:

Good afternoon, Mr. Norris.

# 3 MR. NORRIS:

How you doing, Miss Clark?

# 4 MS. CLARK:

Okay. I just have a few questions for you, sir.

# 5 MR. NORRIS:

Okay.

# 6 MS. CLARK:

So when you saw the Defendant on the date of June the 12th at the airport, he appeared just like you'd seen him on TV commercials and stuff, right?

# 7 MR. NORRIS:

Right.

# 8 MS. CLARK:

Just what you expected?

# 9 MR. NORRIS:

Right.

# 10 MS. CLARK:

All right. You didn't see him at 10:00 o'clock, correct?

# 11 MR. NORRIS:

No, I didn't.

# 12 MS. CLARK:

And you didn't see him at 10:15?

# 13 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 14 MS. CLARK:

Not at 10:30?

# 15 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 16 MS. CLARK:

And not at 11:00 o'clock?

# 17 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 18 MS. CLARK:

So you don't know what he looked like when he got into the limousine at around 11:00 or 11:10?

# 19 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 20 MS. CLARK:

You said that he was wearing stone-washed jeans, light colored denim?

# 21 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 22 MS. CLARK:

Do you remember what kind of shirt he was wearing, sir?

# 23 MR. NORRIS:

It was like a denim-type shirt. I have one similar to it. It's light in color. Like, you know, a blue jean shirt.

# 24 MS. CLARK:

Right. Was it long sleeved, sir?

# 25 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 26 MS. CLARK:

Can you describe for us the--you indicated that--excuse me. Strike that. He went to the back of the limousine, correct?

# 27 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 28 MS. CLARK:

And you saw him get a bag out of the back of the trunk of the limousine?

# 29 MR. NORRIS:

I didn't see him get out.

# 30 MS. CLARK:

He reached in to it?

# 31 MR. NORRIS:

No. The bag was already--I believe was already out on the ground.

# 32 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Can you describe that bag for us, sir?

# 33 MR. NORRIS:

It was black.

# 34 MS. CLARK:

Can you show us with your hands how big it was?

# 35 MR. NORRIS:

I couldn't tell you exactly how big it was.

# 36 MS. CLARK:

Would the style of the bag be like a duffel bag?

# 37 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 38 MS. CLARK:

That sounds right to you?

# 39 MR. NORRIS:

Uh-huh.

# 40 MS. CLARK:

And could you remember--I'm sorry. Is that yes?

# 41 MR. NORRIS:

Yes. I'm sorry.

# 42 MS. CLARK:

And was it black?

# 43 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 44 MS. CLARK:

Okay. And that was on the ground next to the trunk of the limousine, was it?

# 45 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 46 MS. CLARK:

Do you recall seeing any Louie Vuitton garment bag?

# 47 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 48 MS. CLARK:

To the best of your recollection, sir, would that duffel type bag that you saw him reach into on the ground next to the trunk of the limo be about three feet long, maybe one foot high? I'm gesturing with my hands. Does that seem about right to you, sir?

# 49 MR. NORRIS:

I'm not sure exactly on the size of it because it was on the ground and I couldn't--I couldn't tell you exactly how big it was.

# 50 MS. CLARK:

Could you tell us, sir, whether it was a small bag, a medium size or a larger bag?

# 51 MR. NORRIS:

Umm, I can't--not exactly. I couldn't tell you. I mean, it was on the ground and I couldn't tell you the full length of it. No, I couldn't.

# 52 MS. CLARK:

Have you ever seen anything like the size of a book bag, you know, like kids carry, knapsack type bag?

# 53 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 54 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Was it that size or was it larger than that?

# 55 MR. NORRIS:

I would say it would be larger than that.

# 56 MS. CLARK:

Okay. When you saw him get out of the limousine, sir, was he carrying any small dark bag like about the size of a book bag or knapsack with him?

# 57 MR. NORRIS:

I don't recall him carrying anything.

# 58 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Do you recall seeing a bag like that in his possession when you saw him at the airport on the night of June the 12th, small dark knapsack or book size bag?

# 59 MR. NORRIS:

Umm, I would say the smallest bag would be like an athletic bag.

# 60 MS. CLARK:

Like the one you just described to us on the ground next to the trunk of the limousine?

# 61 MR. NORRIS:

Right.

# 62 MS. CLARK:

That was the smallest that you saw him with?

# 63 MR. NORRIS:

That would be the smallest that I would say I saw him with, yes.

# 64 MS. CLARK:

Okay. So then you did not see him in possession of any smaller dark bag like the size of a book bag or knapsack?

# 65 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 66 MS. CLARK:

Okay. And you did not see the Louie Vuitton garment bag?

# 67 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 68 MS. CLARK:

So could you describe for us the bags that you did see him with?

# 69 MR. NORRIS:

There was a golf bag, the bag that he had--that he was--had in the back of the limo, he put over his shoulder and he carried an athletic bag.

# 70 MS. CLARK:

And the bag that he carried over his shoulder, what kind of bag was that, sir?

# 71 MR. NORRIS:

It was a black bag.

# 72 MS. CLARK:

Okay. And did it look kind of like a garment bag?

# 73 MR. NORRIS:

I don't remember if it was more of a garment bag or not.

# 74 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Can you show us how he carried that over his shoulder, sir?

# 75 MR. NORRIS:

He just put it over his shoulder like that and was holding it like this (Indicating).

# 76 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Do you recall which hand he had in, his left or his right?

# 77 MR. NORRIS:

He had it in his--over his--I believe over his right shoulder.

# 78 MS. CLARK:

Okay. When he--

# 79 THE COURT:

Describe that motion.

# 80 MS. CLARK:

Strike that? I'm sorry?

# 81 THE COURT:

You want to describe that motion that he just made for the record?

# 82 MS. CLARK:

Yes. He made a motion with his right hand up to his right shoulder.

# 83 MR. NORRIS:

Yeah. More or less like (Indicating).

# 84 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Kind of like the way you would carry a garment bag, sir?

# 85 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 86 MS. CLARK:

When you first greeted each other, did you shake hands?

# 87 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 88 MS. CLARK:

You just said hi?

# 89 MR. NORRIS:

Right.

# 90 MS. CLARK:

And then your friend--at the point that your friend asked for his autograph, he had already gotten his bags, correct?

# 91 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 92 MS. CLARK:

What had he done?

# 93 MR. NORRIS:

He was going to the trunk to get his bags, and my friend was standing next--like at the back of the van where he was and asked him could he get that autograph.

# 94 MS. CLARK:

And he said, "Hold on a second. I've just got to get my bags"?

# 95 MR. NORRIS:

"Let me take care of my bags." Yeah.

# 96 MS. CLARK:

And then he did go take care of his bags; is that right?

# 97 MR. NORRIS:

Correct.

# 98 MS. CLARK:

And then he picked up that black garment bag and put it over his shoulder?

# 99 MR. NORRIS:

Well, yeah. A black bag.

# 100 MS. CLARK:

Okay. A black bag that looked like a garment bag?

# 101 MR. NORRIS:

Could be. I don't know.

# 102 MS. CLARK:

Something he carried over his shoulder?

# 103 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 104 MS. CLARK:

All right. And then he picked up the other duffle-type bag that was on the ground; is that right?

# 105 MR. NORRIS:

No. The bag that he was--that he looked like he pulled a ticket, something out of, that's the bag he put over his shoulder.

# 106 MS. CLARK:

Okay. He put that over his shoulder?

# 107 MR. NORRIS:

Right.

# 108 MS. CLARK:

And there was another black bag?

# 109 MR. NORRIS:

An athletic bag.

# 110 MS. CLARK:

An athletic bag?

# 111 MR. NORRIS:

Uh-huh.

# 112 MS. CLARK:

Okay. And how did he carry that athletic bag?

# 113 MR. NORRIS:

In his hand.

# 114 MS. CLARK:

Okay. And then he went to sign--at that point, did he go to sign your friend--give him his autograph?

# 115 MR. NORRIS:

Well, he got ready to walk away, and then he remembered, he said, "Oh," and he said, "Here," and he gave him his autograph.

# 116 MS. CLARK:

And what hand did he sign with?

# 117 MR. NORRIS:

He had the--the paper I believe was in his left hand and the pen with his right hand.

# 118 MS. CLARK:

So he put down the black bag?

# 119 MR. NORRIS:

He had a bag--okay. Go ahead.

KEY QUOTE

# 120 MS. CLARK:

So did he put down both bags that he was carrying in order to do the autograph?

# 121 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 122 MS. CLARK:

What did he do?

# 123 MR. NORRIS:

He kept one bag on his shoulder and he wrote the autograph.

# 124 MS. CLARK:

And what did he sign--which hand did he sign with?

# 125 MR. NORRIS:

The right hand.

# 126 MS. CLARK:

So then he was carrying the other bag over his shoulder with his left; is that right?

# 127 MR. NORRIS:

No. It was on his right arm. It was a strap, a strap--he had it over on his arm, right, and he signed with his hand.

# 128 MS. CLARK:

What happened to the other bag?

# 129 MR. NORRIS:

The other bag he put down.

# 130 MS. CLARK:

He put down. Okay. That's what I meant. So did he hold--I'm going to show you, I'm holding this legal pad, okay? Did he hold the pad with his left hand and sign with his right?

# 131 MR. NORRIS:

Yes. It's a little yellow sticker paper.

# 132 MS. CLARK:

Kind of like--we just happen to have a few.

# 133 MR. NORRIS:

The post-it's. Exactly.

# 134 MS. CLARK:

Like this?

# 135 MR. NORRIS:

No. Like those.

# 136 MS. CLARK:

The bigger one?

# 137 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 138 MR. SHAPIRO:

May we mark that, your Honor?

# 139 THE COURT:

The size is of interest.

# 140 MS. CLARK:

Yes. Okay. I'll mark it.

# 141 THE COURT:

I'm sure post-it will tell us what size that is.

# 142 MS. CLARK:

What size is this?

# 143 MR. NORRIS:

About 3-by-5.

# 144 MS. CLARK:

3-by-5?

# 145 MR. NORRIS:

Similar.

# 146 MS. CLARK:

I'll go with that. This seems about right.

# 147 MS. CLARK:

So was he holding it with his left hand like I'm holding it now kind of on top, hand underneath?

# 148 MR. NORRIS:

I couldn't tell you exactly how he held it.

# 149 MS. CLARK:

But he held it with his left hand?

# 150 MR. NORRIS:

He had it in his left hand.

# 151 MS. CLARK:

And he signed with his right?

# 152 MR. NORRIS:

Yeah.

# 153 MS. CLARK:

So his left hand was underneath--his left middle finger at least was underneath the pad of paper, correct?

# 154 MR. NORRIS:

I couldn't tell you that.

# 155 MS. CLARK:

Did you see his left middle finger while he was signing the autograph?

# 156 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 157 MS. CLARK:

Were you studying his hands very carefully, sir, to see if there was any injury to them?

# 158 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 159 MS. CLARK:

You didn't expect him to be injured that night, did you?

# 160 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 161 MS. CLARK:

Now, when he reached down into that black duffle bag, did you see him grunt or grimace in pain as he bent over?

# 162 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 163 MS. CLARK:

Did he have any--seem to have any trouble unzipping that bag, sir?

# 164 MR. NORRIS:

I didn't notice him unzip it.

# 165 MS. CLARK:

Okay. Did you see him take out the ticket or what appeared to be an airline ticket?

# 166 MR. NORRIS:

Excuse me?

# 167 MS. CLARK:

Did you see him take out what appeared to you to be an airline ticket?

# 168 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 169 MS. CLARK:

And did you see him straighten up from lifting--taking that out of the duffle bag?

# 170 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 171 MS. CLARK:

And did he seem to have any trouble bending over or standing up?

# 172 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 173 MS. CLARK:

Now, at the time that you saw Mr. Simpson that night, sir, you did not know that the murders of Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman had occurred, did you?

# 174 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 175 MS. CLARK:

And so you did not know at that time that the murderer had been cut and bled as he fled the scene, correct?

KEY QUOTE

# 176 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 177 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection, your Honor.

# 178 THE COURT:

Sustained. The answer is stricken.

# 179 MS. CLARK:

You didn't know anything about the case, correct?

# 180 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 181 MS. CLARK:

And there was no particular reason that you expected to see any cut or injury on Mr. Simpson, correct?

# 182 MR. NORRIS:

Correct.

# 183 MS. CLARK:

And you were not studying his face or his hands or his body to examine them for bruises or cuts because you didn't expect to find that, correct?

KEY QUOTE

# 184 MR. NORRIS:

Correct.

# 185 MS. CLARK:

Now, was that the first time you had ever met him, the Defendant, in person?

# 186 MR. NORRIS:

Umm, I've seen him in person before.

# 187 MS. CLARK:

And how was that, sir? At the airport?

# 188 MR. NORRIS:

No. When we were--when I was younger, our family went to Knotts Berry Farm, and his family was at Knotts Berry Farm.

# 189 MS. CLARK:

Okay. And did you speak to him on that occasion?

# 190 MR. NORRIS:

I don't remember. I know my stepmother had took a picture of them and their family. I know that. So I really don't remember speaking to him.

# 191 MS. CLARK:

Okay. How many years ago was that?

# 192 MR. NORRIS:

Hmm, is probably, you know, about `75, `76.

# 193 MS. CLARK:

That was the only other time you had seen him?

# 194 MR. NORRIS:

And I've seen him in Westwood before just like driving around or something like that.

# 195 MS. CLARK:

Okay. You didn't speak to him on those occasions?

# 196 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 197 MS. CLARK:

And you saw him, he was driving in his car, was he?

# 198 MR. NORRIS:

Yeah.

# 199 MS. CLARK:

What kind of car was that?

# 200 MR. NORRIS:

I don't recall. It's been--it was in like the mid 80's.

# 201 MS. CLARK:

Okay. And so are those all the contacts you've ever had the times you've seen the Defendant?

# 202 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 203 MS. CLARK:

So you only spoke to him on this one occasion on June the 12th, correct?

# 204 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 205 MS. CLARK:

So would it be fair to state that you don't know how he usually looks in a social setting with other people, correct?

# 206 MR. NORRIS:

Yes.

# 207 MS. CLARK:

And would it be also fair to say that if there was some subtle difference in the way he was acting on the night of June the 12th, you wouldn't know that?

# 208 MR. NORRIS:

Right.

# 209 MS. CLARK:

And if the Defendant had been sweating at 10:00 o'clock or 10:15 or 10:30 that night, you wouldn't know about that, would you, sir?

# 210 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 211 MS. CLARK:

And if he had been bleeding at 10:00 o'clock, 10:15 or 10:30 that night, you wouldn't know that either, would you, sir?

KEY QUOTE

# 212 MR. SHAPIRO:

Objection. Irrelevant.

# 213 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 214 MR. NORRIS:

No.

# 215 MS. CLARK:

Thank you, Mr. Norris.

# 216 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Shapiro.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Marcia Clark

And if he had been bleeding at 10:00 o'clock, 10:15 or 10:30 that night, you wouldn't know that either, would you, sir?

Clark's closing point — the witness's observations were temporally limited and he had no reason to examine Simpson for wounds, neutralizing the defense witness's value as an alibi for Simpson's physical condition.

Marcia Clark

And so you did not know at that time that the murderer had been cut and bled as he fled the scene, correct?

Clark attempts to embed the prosecution's theory of the crime into the record; objection sustained and answer stricken, but the framing was deliberate.

Marcia Clark

And you were not studying his face or his hands or his body to examine them for bruises or cuts because you didn't expect to find that, correct?

Establishes the witness had no evidentiary awareness during the encounter, undercutting any inference that Simpson appeared uninjured.

Michael Norris

He had a bag--okay. Go ahead... He kept one bag on his shoulder and he wrote the autograph.

Norris's confused account of how Simpson managed bags and signed the autograph makes it impossible to draw conclusions about the visibility or condition of Simpson's left hand.

Evidence (5)

Informal

Black duffel/athletic bag seen on ground next to limousine trunk

discussed — witness unable to confirm size, could only say larger than a knapsack

Informal

Black bag carried over Simpson's shoulder (possibly garment bag)

discussed — witness uncertain whether it was a garment bag

Informal

Golf bag

mentioned as one of the bags Simpson was carrying

Informal

Post-it note / 3x5 slip used as autograph paper

used demonstratively; judge notes 'the size is of interest'; Shapiro moves to mark it

Informal

Airline ticket retrieved by Simpson from black bag

discussed

Notable Exchanges (2)

Marcia Clark•Michael Norris

Extended back-and-forth attempting to pin down which hand Simpson used to hold the autograph paper — Clark pressing to establish the left hand/middle finger was visible or not. Norris ultimately says he never looked at the left middle finger and wasn't studying his hands.

strategic

Marcia Clark•Michael Norris

Clark walks Norris through every time window (10:00, 10:15, 10:30, 11:00) confirming Norris saw nothing during any of them — only catching Simpson after 11:00 PM when he exited the limo.

methodical

Light Moments (2)

Lance A. Ito

Judge Ito interjects during the post-it size debate: 'I'm sure post-it will tell us what size that is.'

Michael Norris

Norris greets Clark with 'How you doing, Miss Clark?' — casual opening to a cross-examination.

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Michael Norris

scope limitation

Clark establishes that Norris only saw Simpson after 11 PM, had no prior meaningful relationship with him, and had no reason to study him for injuries — limiting the evidentiary value of his 'he seemed fine' impression to a narrow post-11 PM window.

Witness Demeanor

(Indicating) — witness demonstrates carrying bag over shoulder

Witness frequently hedges ('I couldn't tell you exactly,' 'I'm not sure') when pressed on bag sizes and hand positions

Objections

2 objections (1 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 6791 • 216 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103