Redirect examination of Ellen Aaronson (part 1)

📄 Redirect examination of Ellen Aaronson (part 1) — Tuesday, July 11, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\JUL\11\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-ELLEN-.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 112 of 167

◀ Cross-examination of Ellen Aaronson (part 2) Recross-examination of Ellen Aaronson ▶

Witness: Ellen Aaronson
Examiner: Johnnie Cochran
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, July 11, 1995 • Utterances: 244

Cochran redirects Ellen Aaronson to rehabilitate her timeline testimony after Clark's cross-examination. He walks her methodically through two prior statements — a July 8, 1994 Kilcoyne phone interview and a September 12, 1994 interview with Vannatter and Clark — confirming that she passed Nicole Simpson's residence at approximately 10:25 PM on June 12, 1994, heard and saw nothing unusual, and called police two days later solely out of civic duty after hearing news reports conflict with what she had witnessed.

# 1 THE COURT:

Mr. Cochran.

# 2 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you very kindly, your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN

# 3 MR. COCHRAN:

Miss Aaronson, a few additional questions if I might. Now, you were on a date with Mr. Mandel. And was there any rush for you to leave Mezzaluna and get back home that night?

# 4 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 5 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you have a time frame which would make you take the absolute shortest route home?

# 6 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 7 MR. COCHRAN:

In fact, you had a conversation with him--

# 8 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Leading.

# 9 MR. COCHRAN:

No, I'm not. May I finish the question, please?

# 10 THE COURT:

Finish the question.

# 11 MR. COCHRAN:

In fact, you had a conversation, did you not, wherein the subject matter of whether you'd take the long route or the short route came up; isn't that correct?

# 12 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Leading.

# 13 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 14 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you have a conversation with Mr. Mandel about which route you would take home?

# 15 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, we did.

# 16 MR. COCHRAN:

And you talked about which way you would take; is that right?

# 17 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Leading.

# 18 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 19 MS. CLARK:

Asked and answered.

# 20 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, we did.

# 21 MR. COCHRAN:

And then what did you--which way did you decide to go?

# 22 MS. AARONSON:

The longer way.

# 23 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And you didn't have anybody waiting at home for you to come in any particular time, did you?

# 24 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Leading.

# 25 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 26 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you have anybody at home waiting for you that night?

# 27 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 28 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, in that connection, Miss Clark asked you some questions about the cost of dinners. Have you been out--did you frequently go out last summer in the west side restaurants and ever pay for them yourself for two people?

# 29 MS. AARONSON:

Last summer?

# 30 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes. In the summer of `94.

# 31 MS. AARONSON:

I just got my job then. So--

# 32 MR. COCHRAN:

So at that time, you were going Dutch treat or otherwise, right?

# 33 MS. AARONSON:

Right.

# 34 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you have any idea about the prices of restaurants on the west side?

# 35 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I do.

# 36 MR. COCHRAN:

And do they tend to be fairly expensive?

# 37 MS. AARONSON:

They tend to be overpriced.

KEY QUOTE

# 38 MR. COCHRAN:

And on that particular evening, as I understand it, you had some pasta; is that correct?

# 39 MS. AARONSON:

We both had a pasta.

# 40 MR. COCHRAN:

And you both had cappuccino; is that correct?

# 41 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Leading.

# 42 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 43 MS. AARONSON:

We both had a pasta, we both had ice tea, we both had cappuccino and I don't recall if we had dessert.

# 44 MR. COCHRAN:

Do you recall whether or not you had bottled water or not?

# 45 MS. AARONSON:

We didn't have--I don't think we had bottled water. I don't recall.

# 46 MR. COCHRAN:

So at any rate, you had seen the receipt, and the amount paid was $47.40, right?

# 47 MS. AARONSON:

Uh-huh.

# 48 MR. COCHRAN:

You've got to answer yes.

# 49 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, it is. Sorry.

# 50 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. Now, when you--you've described for us that when you first called Detective Kilcoyne, you told him that you weren't sure on the times; isn't that correct?

# 51 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 52 MR. COCHRAN:

And then thereafter, after you did the things that you've told us about, you had a second conversation with Detective Kilcoyne, reinterview if you will, whereby you spelled out for him the times as best you understood them; is that right?

# 53 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I did.

# 54 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Leading.

# 55 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 56 MR. COCHRAN:

And, your Honor, I would like to mark as Defendant's next exhibit in order the 7-8-94 statement form of Ellen Aaronson. I'd like to show it to the witness and then mark it if the Court pleases.

# 57 THE COURT:

Yes. 435. 1235.

# 58 MR. COCHRAN:

This is for Defense, your Honor. Defense?

# 59 THE COURT:

1235.

# 60 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you.

# 61 (Deft's 1235 for id = statement of Ellen Aaronson)

# 62 MR. COCHRAN:

While I'm here, let me get two--let me get one to save some time. And I would like to mark the second one, interview of 9-12-94 as 1236 I guess, your Honor.

# 63 THE COURT:

1236.

# 64 (Deft's 1236 for id = interview statement of 9-12-94)

# 65 MR. COCHRAN:

I'm going to show you first of all 1235, and I want you to take a look at that and see if you at least recognize that as a supposed telephonic--

# 66 THE COURT:

These are the July 8th and the September 12th statements?

# 67 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes.

# 68 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)

# 69 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you.

# 70 MR. COCHRAN:

I want you to take a look at 1235 and see whether or not that is a report written by Detective Kilcoyne as a result of a second telephonic conversation with you on or about July 8th, 1994.

# 71 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 72 MR. COCHRAN:

And at that time, that was after you had come down here for the preliminary hearing; is that correct?

# 73 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 74 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And you talked to him on the phone?

# 75 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 76 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And if I were to put this on the elmo--I want to ask you some questions about it.

# 77 MS. AARONSON:

Okay.

# 78 MR. COCHRAN:

And ask you whether or not that report is accurate.

# 79 MR. COCHRAN:

May I, your Honor?

# 80 THE COURT:

You may. Have you blacked out the appropriate--

# 81 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes. On ours, we're always aware of the privacy, your Honor. Would you place that--

# 82 MS. CLARK:

Your Honor, I would ask the Court to strike the editorial.

# 83 MR. COCHRAN:

It's true.

# 84 (Brief pause.)

# 85 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about this report that's now on the elmo, and the addresses all have been blocked out. Following your first interview with Detective Kilcoyne, did you telephone Mezzaluna restaurant in an attempt to verify the time frame?

# 86 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I did.

# 87 MR. COCHRAN:

And that after that, you spoke to the restaurant manager--is that the person you call John?

# 88 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 89 MR. COCHRAN:

You learned that the time on the restaurant cash register is one hour behind; is that correct?

# 90 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 91 MR. COCHRAN:

That the witness was informed by Danny Mandel that their receipt was time stamped 8:55 P.M., which was 2055 hours, and that you now realized that your bill was actually paid at 9:55 or 2155 hours; is that correct?

# 92 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 93 MR. COCHRAN:

And that when you looked at your wristwatch, it was 2150 hours, that is 9:50 and not 2250 hours?

# 94 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 95 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. And the only time, as I understand your testimony, that you looked at your wristwatch that evening is when you're still at Mezzaluna at about the time you were told to close up; is that right?

# 96 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Leading.

# 97 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, it is.

# 98 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. That the report goes on to say: "The witness earlier stated she looked at her wristwatch as she walked past the crime scene at 2300 hours. The witness now recalls being at the restaurant when she looked at her watch, and it was 2150 hours." You told Kilcoyne that, didn't you?

# 99 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I did.

# 100 MR. COCHRAN:

And that's correct; is it not?

# 101 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, it's correct.

# 102 MR. COCHRAN:

That you--did you indicate also in this and tell Detective Kilcoyne that you learned that your second roommate, Jean Novack, arrived home at about 2240 hours on June 12th, 1994, returning from a party; is that correct?

# 103 MS. AARONSON:

That's the time I said. My recollection of her telling me the time is at 2235.

# 104 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. 2235, 2240, but she returned home about that time?

# 105 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 106 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. That you were home, "The witness was home prior to Novack's arrival"; is that correct?

# 107 MS. AARONSON:

Can you move this up so I--

# 108 MR. COCHRAN:

Oh, I'm sorry. Can you see it now? That--let me go with it again. "Witness also learned that the second roommate, Jean Novack, arrived home at--"

# 109 MS. AARONSON:

Uh-huh.

# 110 MR. COCHRAN:

"2240 hours on 6-12-94, returning from a party." All right?

# 111 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 112 MR. COCHRAN:

And that--did you tell him also, "The witness was home prior to Novack's arrival"?

# 113 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 114 MR. COCHRAN:

And were you home prior to her arrival?

# 115 MS. AARONSON:

I was home prior to her arrival.

# 116 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you tell the detective that you stated that you did not have any alcohol with dinner that night?

# 117 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I did.

# 118 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And did you tell the detective that you stated that after paying the bill at 2155 hours, at 9:55, "She and her date sat and talked for 10 or 15 minutes before leaving"? Did you tell him that?

# 119 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I did.

# 120 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that accurate?

# 121 MS. AARONSON:

Very.

# 122 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. "And witness and Mandel walked west on the north sidewalk of Gorham Avenue to Bundy drive and (Witness) decided with Mandel to take the long route." Is that correct?

# 123 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 124 MR. COCHRAN:

The long route home rather than south on Westgate; is that right?

# 125 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 126 MR. COCHRAN:

And you told the detective that, didn't you?

# 127 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 128 MR. COCHRAN:

And that was true; was it not?

# 129 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, it is.

# 130 MR. COCHRAN:

"That the two continued to walk leisurely southbound on Bundy drive on the west sidewalk to Darlington Avenue." Is that correct?

# 131 THE COURT:

I think we need page 2 here.

# 132 MR. COCHRAN:

Oh. Thank you, your Honor.

# 133 MR. COCHRAN:

Can you see that?

# 134 MS. AARONSON:

Uh-huh.

# 135 THE COURT:

Is that yes?

# 136 MS. AARONSON:

Yes. Sorry.

# 137 MS. CLARK:

I think counsel neglected to complete the sentence that was being read, "Rather than south on Westgate Avenue."

# 138 MR. COCHRAN:

Let me make sure that I've completed it. Mr. Harris, can you put the first page back up?

# 139 THE COURT:

Mr. Harris, can you back up?

# 140 MR. COCHRAN:

Just for a second, bring it back, turn it back over.

# 141 MR. COCHRAN:

Let me ask you this. "That the witness decided with Mandel to take the long route--"

# 142 MR. COCHRAN:

Now turn it over.

# 143 MR. COCHRAN:

"--home rather than south on Westgate Avenue." Is that correct?

# 144 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 145 MR. COCHRAN:

I thought I covered that.

# 146 MS. CLARK:

Counsel, maybe you want to block out Mr. Mandel's--

# 147 MR. COCHRAN:

The bottom.

# 148 MR. COCHRAN:

Let me continue on. "The two continued to walk leisurely southbound on Bundy drive, the west sidewalk to Darlington." Is that correct?

# 149 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 150 MR. COCHRAN:

And that's the route you've shown us here; is that correct?

# 151 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 152 MR. COCHRAN:

"That again--" I'll wait for Mr. Harris to do that. "Again, the witness recalled that nothing unusual occurred to gain her attention." Is that correct?

# 153 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 154 MR. COCHRAN:

"The witness did not hear any dogs barking or see any vehicles."

# 155 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 156 MR. COCHRAN:

So indicated? "Witness stated she did not stop in front of Nicole Simpson's residence or look down the Simpson walkway." Is that correct?

# 157 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 158 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay. "Witness said there was no reason to stop on the walk home."

# 159 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 160 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. "That witness estimates she passed Nicole Simpson's residence approximately 2220 to 2225 hours." Is that correct?

# 161 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 162 MR. COCHRAN:

And that you went on to tell that: "Witness reported that Dan Mandel could possibly obtain a copy of his credit card receipt." Is that correct?

# 163 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 164 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, when you talked to Detective Kilcoyne on July 8th, again, you had told him you had to get the time frames squared away, you tried to be accurate; did you not?

# 165 MS. AARONSON:

As accurate as possible.

# 166 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And then later on on September 12, 1994 at about 9:15 in the morning, you had occasion to speak with Miss Marcia Clark and with Detective Vannatter; is that correct?

# 167 MS. CLARK:

Asked and answered.

# 168 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 169 MR. COCHRAN:

And I would like now to refer to Defendant's--I think it's 1236, your Honor. I'll ask him to put 1236 up, your Honor, for identification. It will be up in just a second.

# 170 THE COURT:

Mr. Harris, can you back out just a bit? That's fine. Thank you.

# 171 MR. COCHRAN:

Can you see that on the monitor?

# 172 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 173 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. I'll ask you some questions about this statement written by Detective Vannatter, the interview with Vannatter and Clark, all right? Did you indicate to them when you met them in this building that you related the same information as given on the previous interviews except to give the exact direction she and your blind date, Dan Mandel, had taken while walking home, is that correct, gave them the exact route that you took here today?

# 174 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I did.

# 175 MR. COCHRAN:

That you told them that you left the Mezzaluna restaurant at approximately 2200 to 2205 hours, like 10:00, 10:05 hours; is that correct?

# 176 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 177 MR. COCHRAN:

That you walked south on Gorham to Bundy where they walked south on the west side of Bundy; is that correct?

# 178 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 179 MR. COCHRAN:

Stated there were very few vehicles on Bundy and you did not observe any other persons walking. Did you tell him that?

# 180 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 181 MR. COCHRAN:

And was that correct?

# 182 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 183 MR. COCHRAN:

That when you arrived at Darlington--Darlington was your street; was it not?

# 184 MS. AARONSON:

Darlington is my street.

# 185 MR. COCHRAN:

"That they observed two persons walking a medium size short-haired dog." Did you tell him that?

# 186 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 187 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that what you told us here today?

# 188 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 189 MR. COCHRAN:

Is that accurate?

# 190 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 191 MR. COCHRAN:

"They then walked east on Darlington on the north side and stopped halfway between the corner and her residence. She stated she asked Danny if she wanted--if he wanted to come up to her apartment. Danny looked at his watch." Is that correct?

# 192 MS. AARONSON:

Yeah.

# 193 MR. COCHRAN:

"That she believed at that time it was 2228 to 2229 hours," 10:28 to 10:29 hours; is that correct?

# 194 MS. AARONSON:

Correct.

# 195 MR. COCHRAN:

"She stated her apartment was approximately a four-minute walk from the murder scene and that they passed that location at approximately 2225," or 10:25. Is that what you indicated to Miss Clark and Detective Vannatter?

# 196 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 197 MR. COCHRAN:

And was that accurate?

# 198 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 199 MR. COCHRAN:

"She stated she did not hear nor see anything when they walked by, not hearing any dogs bark." Is that--did you make that statement?

# 200 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I did.

# 201 MR. COCHRAN:

And is that accurate?

# 202 MS. AARONSON:

Completely.

# 203 MR. COCHRAN:

Now, as you were walking along Bundy towards Darlington, did you ever at any time see any bloody paw prints on that sidewalk, the direction which you were heading?

# 204 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 205 MR. COCHRAN:

As you walked past 875 south Bundy, did you ever hear the sound of a gate clanging at all?

# 206 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 207 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you ever hear a man's voice say, "Hey, hey, hey"?

# 208 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 209 MR. COCHRAN:

Did you ever hear the sound of two voices as you walked past there?

# 210 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Leading.

# 211 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 212 MS. AARONSON:

I never heard anything.

KEY QUOTE

# 213 MR. COCHRAN:

Was quiet--was anything ever called to your attention as you walked past?

# 214 MS. AARONSON:

Nothing was called to my attention.

# 215 MR. COCHRAN:

And when you called the police, it's your best recollection that was on June 14th; is that correct?

# 216 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Leading. Asked and answered.

# 217 MR. COCHRAN:

I'll restate it.

# 218 MR. COCHRAN:

What was the date to your best recollection when you called the detective the first time?

# 219 MS. AARONSON:

Tuesday. So whatever that Tuesday is, which I think is the 14th.

# 220 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. If Sunday was the 12th--

# 221 MS. AARONSON:

It was the 14th.

# 222 MR. COCHRAN:

--then it was June the 14th, right? All right. That's your best recollection, right?

# 223 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 224 MR. COCHRAN:

And when you were calling and in your subsequent calls, why were you calling the police?

# 225 MS. AARONSON:

I thought it was my civic duty to call the police.

# 226 MR. COCHRAN:

And you didn't know O.J. Simpson, you didn't know his involvement or anything in this case, did you, at that time?

# 227 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Asked and answered. Leading.

# 228 MR. COCHRAN:

I didn't ask that.

# 229 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 230 MR. COCHRAN:

You weren't trying to help O.J. Simpson, were you?

# 231 MS. AARONSON:

I knew that--I knew that he was involved, but I was not trying to help him.

# 232 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. You called because of why?

# 233 MS. AARONSON:

Because the news reports were saying that at the time that I was around there, there was--

# 234 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Hearsay.

# 235 THE COURT:

Overruled. This is just limited to the purpose--not that what the news report said was true, but merely to explain why Miss Aaronson called the police. You can finish your answer.

# 236 MS. AARONSON:

Okay. The news reports were saying that there was a dog barking, that there were lights on a Bronco, I think they said the hazards were on, the lights were blinking. At the point that I was at that street--on the street, there was nothing. It was an extremely quiet evening, out of a movie. I thought it was weird and that's why I called the police, just to give the information. If they wanted to know what other people thought about the street, that's why I called. I honestly never thought it would get this far.

KEY QUOTE

# 237 MR. COCHRAN:

All right. And so in calling the police and in talking to us here today, have you told us the truth about what happened that evening?

# 238 MS. AARONSON:

Yes.

# 239 MR. COCHRAN:

You weren't trying to help one side or the other, were you?

# 240 MS. AARONSON:

No.

# 241 MR. COCHRAN:

Just tell the truth?

# 242 MS. AARONSON:

Yes, I did.

# 243 MS. CLARK:

Objection. Asked and answered, leading.

# 244 MR. COCHRAN:

Thank you very much.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Ellen Aaronson

The news reports were saying that there was a dog barking, that there were lights on a Bronco, I think they said the hazards were on, the lights were blinking. At the point that I was at that street--on the street, there was nothing. It was an extremely quiet evening, out of a movie.

Explains why she called police and directly contradicts key prosecution-friendly evidence about the dog and the Bronco at the crime scene that night.

Ellen Aaronson

I honestly never thought it would get this far.

Candid admission that underscores she had no agenda in calling police and did not anticipate becoming a trial witness.

Ellen Aaronson

I never heard anything.

Flat denial of hearing any gate, voices, or dogs while walking past 875 South Bundy — directly contradicts the prosecution's timeline of the murders occurring before 10:30 PM.

Ellen Aaronson

They tend to be overpriced.

Offhand remark about west side restaurants, offered to explain her familiarity with dinner costs and validate the $47.40 receipt as consistent with the meal described.

Evidence (3)

Defense 1235

Detective Kilcoyne's report of July 8, 1994 telephonic interview with Ellen Aaronson, in which she corrected her timeline after calling Mezzaluna and learning the cash register was one hour behind

introduced, displayed on Elmo, read into record with witness confirming each point

Defense 1236

Detective Vannatter's report of September 12, 1994 interview of Aaronson conducted by Vannatter and Marcia Clark, confirming route taken and 10:25 PM passing of crime scene

introduced, displayed on Elmo, read into record with witness confirming each point

Informal

Mezzaluna restaurant receipt time-stamped 8:55 PM (actually 9:55 PM due to register being one hour behind), totaling $47.40, paid by Danny Mandel's credit card

discussed to anchor corrected timeline

Notable Exchanges (3)

Johnnie Cochran•Marcia Clark•Lance A. Ito

When Cochran remarks 'On ours, we're always aware of the privacy' about redacting addresses on the Elmo display, Clark objects asking the Court to strike the editorial. Cochran simply responds 'It's true.'

sniping

Lance A. Ito•Marcia Clark

Clark interrupts to note Cochran had not completed reading a full sentence from the statement ('rather than south on Westgate Avenue'), prompting Cochran to put the first page back on the Elmo to finish it.

strategic

Lance A. Ito•Ellen Aaronson

Judge Ito twice corrects the witness for saying 'uh-huh' instead of 'yes' for the record.

procedural

Light Moments (1)

Ellen Aaronson

When asked whether west side restaurants are expensive, Aaronson volunteers 'They tend to be overpriced' — a wry editorial that lands as an aside.

Witness Demeanor

(Brief pause.) — after Clark objects to Cochran's editorial remark about privacy redactions

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.) — before Elmo display of Defense 1235

Objections

13 objections (2 sustained, 7 overruled)

Proceeding 6752 • 244 utterances • Defense witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103