Cross-examination of Ronald Shipp (morning, part 4)

📄 Cross-examination of Ronald Shipp (morning, part 4) — Thursday, February 2, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\FEB\2\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-RONALD-SH.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 11 of 167

◀ Sidebar: witness credibility Sidebar: grand jury testimony ▶

Witness: Ron Shipp
Examiner: Carl Douglas
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Thursday, February 2, 1995 • Utterances: 188

Defense attorney Carl Douglas continued cross-examining Ronald Shipp, attacking the credibility of the key 'dreams of killing her' testimony by exposing inconsistencies in the timing of the conversation, establishing that the statement was made 'jokingly,' and showing it did not directly follow the DNA discussion as implied on direct. Douglas also probed Shipp's late-night jacuzzi visit with a female companion and his multiple contacts with the prosecution team, ending abruptly when Darden sought a sidebar after Shipp confirmed grand jury testimony.

# 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT.)

# 2 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: DURING THE COURSE OF YOUR CONVERSATION WITH MR. SIMPSON, YOU RECOMMENDED THAT MR. SIMPSON SEE A PARTICULAR PSYCHIATRIST, DIDN'T YOU?

# 3 A:

I SURE DID.

# 4 Q:

AND THAT WAS A PSYCHIATRIST WITH WHOM YOU HAD PERSONAL INFORMATION ABOUT, TRUE?

# 5 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 6 Q:

AND THAT WAS A PSYCHIATRIST WITH WHOM YOU YOURSELF WERE TREATING, TRUE?

# 7 A:

YES, THAT'S TRUE.

# 8 Q:

AND MR. SIMPSON ATTENDED HIS COUNSELING SESSIONS AS FAR AS YOU KNEW, TRUE?

# 9 A:

AS FAR AS I KNEW.

# 10 Q:

AND AS YOU WOULD LOOK BACK ON MR. SIMPSON'S MARRIAGE WITH NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, YOU WOULD INTERPRET THAT AS BEING A GOOD RELATIONSHIP, WOULDN'T YOU?

# 11 A:

TOTALLY, WHAT I KNEW, IN THE PAST. YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE 1989?

# 12 Q:

WELL, IN 1984, WHEN YOU WERE GIVING A STATEMENT ABOUT MR. SIMPSON'S RELATIONSHIP WITH HIS WIFE WHILE THEY WERE MARRIED, YOU DESCRIBED IT AS BEING A GREAT RELATIONSHIP, A GREAT MARRIAGE, DIDN'T YOU?

# 13 A:

THAT'S CORRECT, YEAH. THAT I KNEW OF, YEAH.

# 14 Q:

NOW, WE TALKED BRIEFLY YESTERDAY ABOUT AN OCCASION IN JUNE OF '94 WHEN YOU VISITED MR. SIMPSON UNANNOUNCED ASKING TO USE A JACUZZI WITH A FRIEND. RECALL THAT?

# 15 A:

I DID -- THAT'S TOTALLY FALSE. TOTALLY FALSE.

# 16 Q:

OKAY. THERE WAS AN OCCASION WHEN YOU CAME WITH A FRIEND AND ASKED TO USE MR. SIMPSON'S JACUZZI, CORRECT?

# 17 A:

MR. DOUGLAS, I HOPE YOU GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT, OKAY.

KEY QUOTE

# 18 Q:

MR. DOUGLAS: CAN HE ANSWER MY QUESTION, YOUR HONOR?

# 19 RON SHIPP:

I WENT TO PLAY TENNIS, MR. DOUGLAS. I WAS PLAYING TENNIS. AFTER THE TENNIS GAME --

# 20 THE COURT:

HOLD ON. HOLD ON.

# 21 RON SHIPP:

YOU ARE ATTACKING ME.

# 22 THE COURT:

HOLD ON, MR. SHIPP. THE JURY IS TO DISREGARD THE LAST COMMENTS BOTH BY MR. SHIPP AND BY MR. DOUGLAS. MR. DOUGLAS, ASK YOUR QUESTIONS.

# 23 MR. DOUGLAS:

THANK YOU.

# 24 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: DON'T YOU RECALL AN OCCASION WHEN YOU CALLED MR. SIMPSON AT ABOUT 10:00 O'CLOCK IN THE EVENING AND ASKED TO USE HIS JACUZZI? DO YOU RECALL THAT, SIR; YES OR NO?

# 25 A:

NO.

# 26 Q:

DO YOU RECALL AFTER HE LET YOU USE THE JACUZZI, THAT ABOUT 20 MINUTES LATER, YOU CALLED BACK AND ASKED HIM TO BRING YOU A BOTTLE OF WINE? DO YOU RECALL THAT, SIR?

# 27 A:

YOU JUST SAID 10:00 O'CLOCK AT NIGHT. DIDN'T YOU SAY 10:00 O'CLOCK AT NIGHT?

# 28 Q:

I AM ASKING, DO YOU RECALL WHEN YOU CALLED HIM BACK TO ASK HIM TO BRING A BOTTLE OF WINE DOWN TO YOU IN THE JACUZZI? DO YOU RECALL THAT?

# 29 A:

CAN I HAVE THE TIMES CLARIFIED, SIR?

# 30 Q:

1994, JUNE, IF NOT MAY.

# 31 A:

JUNE. I'M TALKING ABOUT THE TIME. NOT THE DATE. THE TIME.

# 32 Q:

IT WAS IN THE EVENING, MR. SHIPP. DO YOU RECALL THAT OCCURRING?

# 33 A:

I DO RECALL THAT.

# 34 Q:

OKAY. YOU WERE WITH A FRIEND OTHER THAN YOUR WIFE; WERE YOU NOT?

# 35 A:

YES, I WAS.

# 36 Q:

SHE WAS A BLOND; WAS SHE NOT?

# 37 A:

WHO WAS A FRIEND OF MY WIFE'S, THAT'S CORRECT.

# 38 Q:

AND YOU SAY HER NAME IS WHAT?

# 39 A:

LISA MADIGAN.

# 40 Q:

DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE BY THE NAME OF ANGELA SPILKER?

# 41 A:

ANGELA SPILKER?

# 42 Q:

YES.

# 43 A:

I CAN'T RECALL.

# 44 Q:

YOU HAVE WORKED IN OTHER JOBS AS AN INVESTIGATOR; HAVE YOU NOT?

# 45 A:

YES, I HAVE.

# 46 Q:

AND YOU HAVE DONE INVESTIGATIVE WORK FOR FRIENDS OF MR. SIMPSON'S; HAVE YOU NOT?

# 47 A:

YES, I HAVE.

# 48 Q:

AND THERE WAS AN OCCASION WHEN YOU WERE ASKED TO LOOK INTO THE BACKGROUND OF ANGELA --

# 49 A:

OH, ANGELA, YEAH. I DO REMEMBER. CORRECT. I AM SORRY. TOM MC CULLIN.

# 50 Q:

ANGELA IS A GERMAN WOMAN, ISN'T SHE?

# 51 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 52 Q:

SHE IS ABOUT SIX FOOT ONE, ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

# 53 A:

I'VE NEVER MET THE WOMAN, BUT -- ACTUALLY, NO. I DID. SHE WAS IN A CAR. I SERVED HER I THINK.

# 54 Q:

YOU DID MEET HER, TRUE?

# 55 A:

THAT'S RIGHT.

# 56 Q:

SHE'S A TALL BLONDE, ISN'T SHE?

# 57 A:

SHE WAS IN THE CAR. I SAW HER FOR ABOUT 10 SECONDS.

# 58 Q:

AND THE ONLY TIME THAT YOU HAD EVER SEEN HER WAS FOR THOSE 10 SECONDS?

# 59 A:

YES, THAT'S CORRECT.

# 60 Q:

AND MISS SPILKER WAS NOT THE PERSON WHO WAS WITH YOU ON THIS OCCASION WHEN YOU ASKED FOR THE BOTTLE OF WINE?

# 61 A:

NO. I JUST GAVE YOU HER NAME.

# 62 Q:

NOW, LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS ALLEGED CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD WITH MR. SIMPSON ON THE 13TH. WHAT TIME DO YOU RECALL THAT YOU AND HE HAD THIS ALLEGED CONVERSATION ABOUT THE DREAM? WHAT TIME OF THE EVENING WAS IT?

# 63 A:

I THINK IT WAS MAYBE CLOSE -- I REMEMBER IT LIKE 11:00 O'CLOCK, SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE.

# 64 Q:

DO YOU RECALL TELLING MISS WELLER THAT THIS CONVERSATION THAT YOU HAD WAS SHORTLY PAST MIDNIGHT ON THE 13TH?

# 65 A:

IT COULD HAVE BEEN. THAT WHOLE WEEK KIND OF RAN TOGETHER.

# 66 Q:

DO YOU NEED TO SEE SOMETHING TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION, SIR?

# 67 A:

WELL, YEAH, IF YOU HAVE IT.

# 68 Q:

SURE. AND BY THE WAY -- I AM SORRY. ONE OTHER QUESTION ABOUT THE OCCASION WHEN YOU AND MISS MADIGAN WERE IN THE JACUZZI. YOU SAW MR. SIMPSON'S DAUGHTER ARNELLE WHILE YOU AND SHE WERE IN THE JACUZZI, TRUE?

# 69 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 70 Q:

AND IT WAS IN JUNE, WASN'T IT?

# 71 A:

IT WAS IN JUNE.

# 72 Q:

OKAY.

# 73 A:

I WAS DISPUTING THE TIME, NOT DISPUTING THE DAY.

# 74 Q:

I JUST WANTED TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION WITH A COPY OF EXHIBIT D-1000, AND I JUST WANT YOU TO READ TO YOURSELF THE PORTION THAT I'M REFERRING TO BEGINNING ON THE BOTTOM OF PAGE 8.

# 75 A:

OKAY (WITNESS COMPLIES).

# 76 Q:

AFTER HAVING READ EXHIBIT 1000, IS YOUR MEMORY NOW REFRESHED THAT IT WAS JUST AFTER MIDNIGHT WHEN YOU AND MR. SIMPSON SUPPOSEDLY WENT UP TO HIS BEDROOM?

# 77 A:

I REALLY DON'T THINK IT WAS THAT LATE BECAUSE I REMEMBER GETTING HOME ROUGHLY AROUND 12:30, SOMEWHERE AROUND THERE.

# 78 Q:

WELL, DO YOU REMEMBER THAT WHEN YOU HAD AN OCCASION TO READ THE DRAFT OF MISS WELLER'S BOOK, THAT THE BOOK HAD SAID JUST AFTER MIDNIGHT? DO YOU REMEMBER READING THAT?

# 79 A:

I THINK -- YEAH, I THINK I PRETTY MUCH --

# 80 Q:

AND YOU DO REMEMBER THAT, AS YOU SAID YESTERDAY, THAT THE DRAFT OF THE BOOK WAS CORRECT, TRUE?

# 81 A:

TRUE.

# 82 Q:

AND IT IS TRUE, IS IT NOT, THAT YOUR MEMORY OF THESE EVENTS WAS FRESHER DURING YOUR CONVERSATION WITH MISS WELLER IN JULY OR AUGUST THAN IT IS TODAY?

# 83 A:

THAT'S -- I WOULD SAY YOU ARE PROBABLY CORRECT.

# 84 Q:

BECAUSE YOUR MEMORY DOESN'T IMPROVE OVER TIME, DOES IT?

# 85 A:

NO, IT DOES NOT.

# 86 Q:

SO IF MISS WELLER SAYS THAT IT WAS JUST AFTER MIDNIGHT, THAT'S PROBABLY A BETTER REFLECTION OF THE TIME FRAME?

# 87 A:

WELL, LIKE I SAID, I'M STILL -- I'M THINKING ABOUT WHEN I GOT HOME. I'M SAYING GOT HOME AT ABOUT 12:30. IT USUALLY TAKES ME 45 MINUTES, ALMOST AN HOUR TO GET HOME.

# 88 Q:

NOW, AFTER YOU AND MR. SIMPSON WERE UPSTAIRS, ACCORDING TO YOUR VERSION OF THIS, MR. SIMPSON BEGAN ASKING YOU A SERIES OF QUESTIONS YOU SAY; IS THAT CORRECT?

# 89 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 90 Q:

DID YOU SAY OR IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT MR. SIMPSON ASKED YOU ABOUT -- WITHDRAWN. IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY THAT MR. SIMPSON SAID THAT THE POLICE HAD TOLD HIM ABOUT A BLOODY GLOVE?

# 91 A:

COULD YOU REPEAT THAT AGAIN, PLEASE?

# 92 Q:

SURE. DID MR. SIMPSON TELL YOU THAT THE POLICE HAD TOLD SIMPSON ABOUT A BLOODY GLOVE?

# 93 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 94 Q:

AND DID SIMPSON TELL YOU THAT THE POLICE HAD TOLD SIMPSON ABOUT SOME CAP THAT WAS FOUND?

# 95 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 96 Q:

DID YOU KNOW THAT DURING THE ENTIRE TIME THAT MR. SIMPSON WAS IN THE CUSTODY OF THE POLICE OFFICERS ON THAT DAY --

# 97 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION. ASSUMING FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

# 98 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: -- THAT THEY NEVER MENTIONED ANYTHING ABOUT A BLOODY GLOVE?

# 99 MR. DARDEN:

COUNSEL IS ATTEMPTING TO TESTIFY. MR. SIMPSON WAS NOT IN CUSTODY.

# 100 MR. DOUGLAS:

I CAN LINK IT UP AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME.

# 101 THE COURT:

I AM GOING TO SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION AS BEING COMPOUND.

# 102 MR. DOUGLAS:

VERY WELL.

# 103 THE COURT:

AT THIS POINT.

# 104 MR. DOUGLAS:

BECAUSE IT IS COMPOUND.

# 105 THE COURT:

IT MAY ALSO ASSUME A FACT THAT'S NOT IN EVIDENCE. THERE'S -- WHEN YOU USE THE TERM "CUSTODY", THAT'S A VERY FINE TERM IN OUR TERMINOLOGY HERE.

# 106 MR. DOUGLAS:

YOUR HONOR, I JUST NEED TO KNOW THE RULING SO THAT I CAN CHANGE THE QUESTION ACCORDINGLY.

# 107 THE COURT:

REPHRASE THE QUESTION.

# 108 MR. DOUGLAS:

I'LL REPHRASE THE QUESTION. CERTAINLY.

# 109 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: DID YOU KNOW THAT NOTHING ABOUT A BLOODY GLOVE WAS EVER MENTIONED TO MR. SIMPSON BY THE POLICE ON JUNE 13TH?

# 110 MR. DARDEN:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. THIS WITNESS IS NOT COMPETENT TO TESTIFY TO THE CONVERSATION DEFENDANT HAD WITH THE POLICE.

# 111 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. THAT'S A SPEAKING OBJECTION, COUNSEL.

# 112 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: YOU MAY ANSWER.

# 113 A:

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THE POLICE HAD SAID THEY FOUND. I'M JUST GOING BY WHAT O.J. MENTIONED TO ME.

# 114 Q:

SO YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT?

# 115 A:

HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY FOUND.

# 116 Q:

AND YOU DIDN'T KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ANY CAP BEING RECOVERED WAS EVER MENTIONED TO MR. SIMPSON?

# 117 A:

I HAD NO IDEA.

# 118 Q:

IF YOU KNEW THAT NOTHING ABOUT A BLOODY GLOVE WAS EVER MENTIONED TO MR. SIMPSON ON THE 13TH BY THE POLICE, WOULD THAT CAUSE YOU TO MAYBE RETHINK YOUR VERSION OF THIS CONVERSATION?

# 119 A:

NOT ONE -- NOT -- NO. I KNOW WHAT I HEARD. NO. NO WAY.

KEY QUOTE

# 120 MR. DOUGLAS:

ONE MOMENT, YOUR HONOR.

# 121 (BRIEF PAUSE.)

# 122 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: NOW, THIS ALLEGED STATEMENT ABOUT A DREAM YOU WERE ASKED ABOUT YESTERDAY, WEREN'T YOU?

# 123 A:

YES, I WAS.

# 124 Q:

AND YOU WERE ASKED YESTERDAY WHETHER MR. SIMPSON ALLEGEDLY MADE SOME STATEMENT ABOUT DNA COMING BACK, TRUE?

# 125 A:

TRUE.

# 126 Q:

AND YOU WERE ASKED YESTERDAY WHAT MR. SIMPSON SAID IN RESPONSE TO YOUR INDICATION THAT IT TAKES DNA TWO MONTHS TO COME BACK, CORRECT?

# 127 A:

CORRECT.

# 128 Q:

AND YOU RESPONDED THAT HE KIND OF JOKINGLY JUST SAID, "YOU KNOW, TO BE HONEST, SHIPP, I'VE HAD SOME DREAMS OF KILLING HER." THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID YESTERDAY, TRUE?

# 129 A:

THAT'S VERY TRUE.

# 130 Q:

ISN'T IT MORE ACCURATE, MR. SHIPP, THAT MR. SIMPSON NEVER SUPPOSEDLY SAID ANYTHING ABOUT DREAMS IN RESPONSE TO THIS QUESTION ABOUT DNA, TRUE?

# 131 A:

CAN YOU REPEAT THAT QUESTION?

# 132 Q:

SURE. THERE WAS SOME OTHER PORTION OF A CONVERSATION THAT WE'RE NOT GOING TO GO INTO THAT CAME BETWEEN THE STATEMENT ABOUT DNA THAT YOU HAD SAID AND THE STATEMENT THAT YOU SAY MR. SIMPSON SAID ABOUT THE DREAM; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

# 133 A:

IF I --

# 134 Q:

YES OR NO? YOU CAN ANSWER IT YES OR NO.

# 135 A:

THAT OTHER STATEMENT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT CAME FIRST IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN.

KEY QUOTE

# 136 Q:

BEFORE THE DNA STATEMENT?

# 137 A:

IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN.

# 138 Q:

WELL --

# 139 A:

I THINK THAT MAY HAVE COME FIRST.

# 140 Q:

WOULD YOU LIKE TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION AS TO THE ORDER OF THE CONVERSATION BY REVIEWING AGAIN THE STATEMENT ATTRIBUTABLE TO YOU IN MISS WELLER'S BOOK?

# 141 MR. DOUGLAS:

MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?

# 142 THE COURT:

YOU MAY. IT'S 1001?

# 143 MR. DOUGLAS:

1000, YOUR HONOR.

# 144 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT.

# 145 MR. DOUGLAS:

AND I ASK THE WITNESS SIMPLY TO READ IT TO HIMSELF SO I CAN ASK MY NEXT SERIES OF QUESTIONS.

# 146 THE COURT:

YES.

# 147 RON SHIPP:

OKAY (WITNESS COMPLIES). I'VE READ IT.

# 148 Q:

BY MR. DOUGLAS: AFTER HAVING REVIEWED THE EXCERPTS FROM THIS BOOK, IS YOUR RECOLLECTION NOW REFRESHED?

# 149 A:

OKAY. IT'S REFRESHED. THAT'S CORRECT.

# 150 Q:

IT IS TRUE, IS IT NOT, THAT EVEN ACCORDING TO YOUR VERSION, THIS ALLEGED STATEMENT ABOUT THE DREAMS DID NOT DIRECTLY COME IN RESPONSE TO THE ALLEGED STATEMENT ABOUT DNA, CORRECT?

# 151 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 152 Q:

THERE WAS SOMETHING ELSE THAT WE ARE NOT GOING TO GO INTO THAT CAME IN BETWEEN THE TWO?

# 153 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 154 Q:

AND WHEN YOU RESPONDED AND CHARACTERIZED MR. SIMPSON'S ALLEGED STATEMENT ABOUT THE DREAMS, YOU SAID THAT THE STATEMENT WAS MADE JOKINGLY, DIDN'T YOU?

# 155 A:

THAT'S TRUE.

# 156 Q:

TELL ME EVERYTHING THAT YOU SAW THAT GAVE YOU AN INDICATION THAT THE STATEMENT, THE ALLEGED STATEMENT WAS MADE JOKINGLY.

# 157 A:

WELL, HE JUST KIND OF SAID, "YOU KNOW, TO BE TRUTHFUL, SHIPP, I'VE HAD DREAMS OF KILLING HER."

# 158 Q:

SO HE KIND OF CHUCKLED?

# 159 A:

KIND OF CHUCKLED, YEAH.

# 160 Q:

MR. SHIPP, WHEN WERE YOU FIRST INFORMED BY ANYONE REPRESENTING THE PROSECUTION IN THIS CASE THAT YOU WOULD BE CALLED AS A WITNESS TO TESTIFY IN THIS MATTER?

# 161 A:

WHENEVER PHIL VANNATTER -- I THINK IT'S PROBABLY THE SECOND TIME HE VISITED MY HOUSE, HE SAID I POSSIBLY MAY BE CALLED. HE DIDN'T SAY I WAS ACTUALLY GOING TO BE CALLED.

# 162 Q:

AND GIVE ME YOUR BEST ESTIMATE OF WHEN IT WAS THAT PHIL VANNATTER VISITED YOUR HOUSE A SECOND TIME.

# 163 A:

CAN YOU REFRESH MY MEMORY OR SOMEONE AS TO WHEN -- AS TO WHEN I MET WITH MARCIA AND MR. DARDEN?

# 164 Q:

I THINK YOU MET WITH MARCIA THE FIRST TIME IN JULY OF '94.

# 165 A:

JULY? OKAY. IT WAS PROBABLY MAYBE ABOUT TWO OR THREE WEEKS AFTER THAT.

# 166 Q:

SO TWO OR THREE WEEKS AFTER MEETING WITH MARCIA, PHIL TOLD YOU THAT YOU WOULD PROBABLY BE A WITNESS IN THE CASE?

# 167 A:

YES, HE DID.

# 168 Q:

AND DID YOU THEN TELL PHIL KNOWING THAT YOU WOULD BE A WITNESS IN THE CASE ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION CONCERNING THE DREAM THAT SUPPOSEDLY OCCURRED?

# 169 A:

NO, I DIDN'T.

# 170 Q:

HOW MANY TIMES AFTER THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU MET IN MARCIA'S OFFICE DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH ANYONE FROM THE PROSECUTION TEAM?

# 171 A:

I THINK I MAY HAVE HAD SEVERAL CONVERSATIONS, MAYBE TWO, THREE MAYBE WITH PATTI FAIRBANKS.

# 172 Q:

HOW MANY OTHER CONVERSATIONS DID YOU HAVE WITH PHIL VANNATTER OTHER THAN ON THE DAY THAT YOUR STATEMENT WAS RECORDED?

# 173 A:

REPEAT THAT QUESTION?

# 174 Q:

HOW MANY CONVERSATIONS DID YOU HAVE WITH PHIL VANNATTER OTHER THAN THE DAY WHEN YOUR STATEMENT WAS RECORDED, TRANSCRIBED?

# 175 A:

ONE, MAYBE TWO.

# 176 Q:

AND THEY WERE BOTH AT YOUR HOME?

# 177 A:

NO. ONE WAS AT MY HOME AND I THINK ONE OTHER TIME, I JUST CALLED TO ASK HIM SOME KIND OF QUESTION.

# 178 Q:

DID YOU JUST SAY A MINUTE AGO THAT PHIL TOLD YOU THAT YOU MAY BE A WITNESS THE SECOND TIME THAT HE CAME TO YOUR HOME?

# 179 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 180 Q:

WHEN WAS THE FIRST TIME?

# 181 A:

THE FIRST TIME HE CAME TO MY HOME?

# 182 Q:

YES.

# 183 A:

FIRST TIME HE CAME TO MY HOME WAS WHEN HE BROUGHT A SUBPOENA FOR THE GRAND JURY.

# 184 Q:

YOU DID TESTIFY UNDER OATH IN A GRAND JURY PROCEEDING?

# 185 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 186 Q:

WHEN YOU TESTIFIED --

# 187 MR. DARDEN:

PARDON ME, YOUR HONOR. MAY WE APPROACH THE SIDEBAR?

# 188 THE COURT:

YES, WITH THE COURT REPORTER, PLEASE.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Ronald Shipp

I KNOW WHAT I HEARD. NO. NO WAY.

Shipp's defiant refusal to reconsider his account even when confronted with Douglas's assertion that police never mentioned a bloody glove to Simpson — but the firmness also highlights that his testimony rests entirely on his personal recollection with no corroboration.

Ronald Shipp

WELL, HE JUST KIND OF SAID, 'YOU KNOW, TO BE TRUTHFUL, SHIPP, I'VE HAD DREAMS OF KILLING HER.' KIND OF CHUCKLED, YEAH.

Douglas gets Shipp to confirm Simpson's alleged admission was delivered with a chuckle, significantly softening the statement's weight as consciousness of guilt.

Ronald Shipp

MR. DOUGLAS, I HOPE YOU GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT, OKAY.

Shipp's combative pushback on the jacuzzi visit framing reveals his defensiveness about his personal life being scrutinized, briefly making him look evasive before the details were clarified.

Ronald Shipp

THAT OTHER STATEMENT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT CAME FIRST IF I'M NOT MISTAKEN. I THINK THAT MAY HAVE COME FIRST.

Shipp's uncertainty about the sequence of the conversation — needing the book to refresh his memory — undercuts the precision of his direct testimony and suggests the 'dreams' statement was not as dramatically framed as jurors were led to believe.

Evidence (1)

Defense Exhibit D-1000

Draft/excerpt of Sheila Weller's book containing Shipp's account of the June 13 conversation, including timing and sequence of the dream discussion

Used twice to refresh Shipp's recollection — first on timing (just after midnight), then on the sequence of statements leading to the 'dream' admission

Notable Exchanges (4)

Carl Douglas•Ronald Shipp

Douglas confronted Shipp about calling Simpson at 10pm to use his jacuzzi and then calling back for a bottle of wine while with a female companion. Shipp objected to the framing ('You are attacking me'), was admonished by Ito, and the jury was told to disregard both men's comments before the questioning resumed more calmly.

heated

Carl Douglas•Ronald Shipp

Douglas established that the 'dreams of killing her' statement was made jokingly with a chuckle, that it did not directly follow the DNA exchange, and that an unspecified intervening portion of conversation existed — effectively dismantling the dramatic structure of Shipp's direct testimony.

strategic

Carl Douglas•Ronald Shipp

Douglas pressed Shipp on whether, if he knew police never mentioned a bloody glove to Simpson on June 13, he would reconsider his account. Shipp refused flatly, but in doing so implicitly conceded he had no independent knowledge of what police told Simpson.

revealing

Christopher Darden•Carl Douglas•Lance A. Ito

Darden objected to Douglas's question about police not mentioning the glove to Simpson 'while in custody.' Ito sustained on compound grounds and noted 'custody' was a legally loaded term. Douglas rephrased; Darden objected again on competency; Ito overruled, calling it a 'speaking objection.'

procedural

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ Ronald Shipp

Prior inconsistent statement / memory impeachment

Douglas used Shipp's own account in Sheila Weller's book (Exhibit D-1000) to show the dream conversation occurred just after midnight — later than Shipp recalled — and that the 'dreams' statement did not directly follow the DNA exchange as implied on direct.

⚔ Ronald Shipp

Bias / personal conduct

Douglas established that Shipp had a late-night jacuzzi visit with a female companion (not his wife) at Simpson's estate and called Simpson for a bottle of wine — suggesting Shipp had an intimate familiarity with and reliance on Simpson that could color his account.

⚔ Ronald Shipp

Minimization of key statement

Douglas got Shipp to confirm that Simpson's 'I've had dreams of killing her' was delivered with a chuckle and described by Shipp himself as 'jokingly,' significantly reducing its value as consciousness of guilt.

⚔ Ronald Shipp

Prosecution contact / witness preparation

Douglas traced Shipp's multiple contacts with Vannatter, Clark, Darden, and Fairbanks, and elicited that Shipp did not disclose the dream conversation to Vannatter even after being told he'd likely be a witness — raising questions about when and why the account surfaced.

Witness Demeanor

(Witness complies — reads document silently, twice)

(Witness interjects mid-answer: 'YOU ARE ATTACKING ME')

(Witness pushes back on framing repeatedly, asking for time clarification rather than answering yes/no)

Objections

2 objections (1 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 4533 • 188 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103