ALL RIGHT. THAT WAS OUR ONE LIGHT MOMENT FOR THE DAY. ALL RIGHT. COUNSEL, LET'S HAVE THE JURY.

YES, WE ARE. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN. BE SEATED. ALL RIGHT. GOOD AFTERNOON, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

GOOD AFTERNOON.

THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THAT DETECTIVE RONALD PHILLIPS IS STILL ON THE WITNESS STAND.

RONALD PHILLIPS, THE WITNESS ON THE STAND AT THE TIME OF THE NOON RECESS, RESUMED THE STAND AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:

GOOD AFTERNOON, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.

GOOD AFTERNOON, SIR.

YOU ARE REMINDED YOU ARE STILL UNDER OATH. MR. COCHRAN, YOU MAY CONTINUE YOUR CROSS-EXAMINATION.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR HONOR.

CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED)

BY MR. COCHRAN:

GOOD AFTERNOON, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS.

GOOD AFTERNOON.

WHEN WE BROKE AT LUNCHTIME WE WERE GOING TO SEE THROUGH YOUR NOTES OR THE LOG WHICH HAS BEEN MARKED NOW AS DEFENSE EXHIBIT 1006, WHAT TIME THE CORONER FINALLY ARRIVED IN THIS MATTER TO THE BUNDY LOCATION. DO YOU HAVE SOME NOTES WHICH WOULD HELP YOU IN THAT REGARD, SIR?

NO. I REVIEWED THE CRIME LOG AT THE D.A.'S OFFICE.

IN THE D.A.'S OFFICE OVER THE LUNCH HOUR?

YES.

WERE YOU TALKING WITH MISS CLARK DURING THAT TIME?

YES.

AND WITH MR. DARDEN?

MISS CLARK.

AND AT THAT TIME, IN REVIEWING THAT CRIME LOG, DID IT ASSIST YOU IN DETERMINING WHAT TIME THE CORONERS FINALLY ARRIVED AT THE BUNDY STREET LOCATION ON JUNE 13, 1994?

YES, SIR.

AND WHAT TIME WAS THAT, SIR?

9:10 IN THE MORNING.

AND YOU WERE AWARE THAT OFFICER RISKE FIRST DISCOVERED THESE BODIES SOMETIME AROUND 12:10 WHEN HE ARRIVED; IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

THIS WAS SOME NINE HOURS AFTER THAT; IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

NOW, WITH REGARD TO -- BEFORE WE FINALLY LEAVE THE TAPE, YOUR HONOR, I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT AS WE PASSED THE TRANSCRIPT OUT TO THE JURY, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WE NUMBERED THAT. I WOULD ASK LEAVE NOW TO NUMBER THAT 1019, DEFENDANT'S 1019 AND THE TAPE -- THE TAPE WILL BE 1019 AND THE TRANSCRIPTS WHICH THE JURY HAD WILL BE 1019-A IF THE COURT PLEASES.

ALL RIGHT.

WE HAVE DONE THAT WITH THE CLERK OVER THE LUNCH HOUR, YOUR HONOR.

ALL RIGHT.

I WOULD JUST LIKE TO GO BACK BRIEFLY, DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, TO THAT TAPE THAT WE PLAYED THIS MORNING.

WITH REGARD TO YOUR STATEMENT THAT WE'RE KIND -- "WE KIND OF NOT FOLLOWING PROCEDURE," WHEN YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT THAT, WERE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE FACT YOU WEREN'T FOLLOWING PROCEDURE IN GIVING IMMEDIATE NOTIFICATION TO THE CORONER?

NO.

BUT YOU WEREN'T FOLLOWING THAT PROCEDURE EITHER, WERE YOU, AT THAT TIME?

OKAY.

"BUT WE'RE KIND OF ASKING A FAVOR." NOW, IN SAYING THAT, YOU WERE ASKING THIS MAN WILLIS A FAVOR AT THAT POINT, THE CORONER'S OFFICE?

I WAS ASKING A FAVOR, YES.

OKAY. LET ME GET TO IT. "WE'RE KIND OF ASKING A FAVOR AND, YOU KNOW, KIND OF WORK A LITTLE BIT ON THIS ONE." REMEMBER USING THOSE WORDS?

YES, SIR.

ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHEN -- AT THAT POINT, WHEN YOU TOLD HIM YOU WEREN'T FOLLOWING PROCEDURE, IT WAS ABOUT 6:50 A.M. ON THE 13TH, RIGHT?

YES.

AND AT THAT POINT HE DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING AT ALL EXCEPT THERE WAS A DOUBLE HOMICIDE OUT AT BUNDY; IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

HE DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THEY WERE MALES OR FEMALES OR WHATEVER; ISN'T THAT CORRECT, AT THAT POINT?

WELL, SOMETIME IN THE CONVERSATION I TOLD HIM THEY WERE MALE AND A FEMALE.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE IT BEFORE YOU BUT THIS IS AT THE VERY FIRST POINT OF THE CONVERSATION, AND AT THAT POINT YOU JUST SAID YOU HAD A DOUBLE HOMICIDE, I BELIEVE.

OKAY.

SO HE WOULD ONLY FIND OUT THAT WHICH YOU WOULD TELL HIM; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES.

AND SO IF YOU HAD WANTED, TO AS AN EXPERIENCED DETECTIVE, YOU COULD HAVE JUST TOLD HIM THAT WE HAVE A DOUBLE HOMICIDE OUT HERE ON BUNDY, WE ARE NOT READY FOR YOU YET, WE WILL CALL YOU BACK, GIVE US SOME NUMBERS AND LET US KNOW HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE TO GET OUT HERE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT? YOU COULD HAVE DONE THAT, COULDN'T YOU?

COULD IT HAVE BEEN DONE THAT WAY, SURE.

NOW, TOM LANGE DIDN'T INSTRUCT YOU, WHEN YOU WERE DOING HIM A FAVOR, TO GO AND TELL HIM THIS WAS THE EX-WIFE OF A VERY PROMINENT SPORTSCAST STAR OR SUPPOSED CELEBRITY? TOM LANGE DIDN'T TELL YOU TO DO THAT, DID HE?

NO, BUT I WAS INFORMING THE CORONER'S OFFICE OF THAT.

THE QUESTION IS TOM LANGE DIDN'T ASK YOU TO TELL THE CORONER'S OFFICE, DID HE?

NO, HE DID NOT.

YOU DID THAT ON YOUR OWN, DIDN'T YOU?

YES, I DID.

AND WHEN HE ASKED YOU "CAN YOU GIVE ME THE NAME," THAT IS WHAT WILLIS ASKED YOU AND YOU SAID: "WELL, I -- YOU ARE NOT -- YOU ARE NOT GOING TO LET -- NOT GOING TO LET THIS" AND HE GOES AND SAYS, "NO, I'M AN INVESTIGATOR." YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO GIVE HIM THE NAME EITHER, DID YOU?

I DID NOT HAVE TO GIVE IT TO HIM.

AND WHEN YOU STOPPED TO REFER TO A TOM DURING THE PROGRESS OF THIS TAPE, YOU WERE TALKING TO TOM LANGE WHO WAS THEN ONE OF THE INVESTIGATORS FROM ROBBERY/HOMICIDE?

HE WAS THE LEAD INVESTIGATOR ON THE CASE.

WAS HE THE LEAD INVESTIGATOR OR WAS VANNATTER THE LEAD?

AT THE BUNDY LOCATION AT THAT TIME OF THE MORNING HE WAS THE LEAD INVESTIGATOR BECAUSE VANNATTER WAS SOME PLACE ELSE.

VANNATTER WAS NOT THERE AT THAT POINT?

NO, HE WAS NOT.

AS BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM, WHEN THEY WERE BOTH AT BUNDY, VANNATTER IS THE LEAD; IS THAT CORRECT?

TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, MR. COCHRAN, I DON'T KNOW WHICH ONE OF THOSE TWO IS THE LEAD INVESTIGATOR ON THIS CASE. I KNOW THEY ARE JOINT LEAD INVESTIGATORS. IF ONE OUTRANKS THE OTHER OR HAS MORE TIME, I DON'T KNOW.

OKAY. I WANT YOU TO BE HONEST WITH US.

I AM. I DON'T KNOW.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH. THANK YOU. NOW, WHEN YOU TALKED TO MR. WILLIS ON THIS TAPE HE ASKED YOU -- STRIKE THAT. MR. WILLIS SAID: "OKAY. ARE THESE BOTH GUNSHOT WOUNDS?" AND YOUR RESPONSE WAS ESSENTIALLY: "THEY WERE EITHER SHOT OR BLUDGEONED TO DEATH"; IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT IS WHAT I SAID.

AND SO AT 6:49 TO SEVEN O'CLOCK, AT THAT TIME IN THE MORNING YOU DID NOT KNOW HOW THESE TWO INDIVIDUALS HAD LOST THEIR LIVES; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?

I KNOW. I UNDERSTAND -- I'M NOT CRITICIZING YOU MAKING A MISTAKE. THAT IS NOT ABOUT CRITICIZING YOU. I'M JUST ASKING YOU AT THAT TIME YOU DIDN'T KNOW HOW THEY DIED?

NO, I DIDN'T.

THAT IS THE POINT, THAT YOU DID NOT KNOW, SO THAT WHEN YOU TALKED TO MR. SIMPSON SOME TIME AROUND, WHAT TIME, SIX O'CLOCK --

I BELIEVE IT WAS 6:05.

-- YOU DIDN'T KNOW HOW THESE PEOPLE HAD DIED, HAD YOU -- DID YOU?

I DID NOT KNOW HOW THEY DIED.

ALL RIGHT. AND SO WHEN YOU MAKE THE STATEMENT THEY WERE EITHER SHOT OR BLUDGEONED TO DEATH, THAT WAS SPECULATION ON YOUR PART, BUT YOU JUST DIDN'T KNOW HOW THEY DIED AT THAT POINT; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?

THAT'S RIGHT.

ALL RIGHT. NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE CRIME SCENE LOG, SINCE YOU LOOKED AT IT OVER THE LUNCHTIME, UNDER "PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN," WHAT TIME DID YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN LEAVE THE SCENE -- LEAVE THE BUNDY SCENE THAT MORNING, PER THE LOG?

I DON'T BELIEVE IT IS ON THE LOG, SIR.

WELL, LET ME SEE -- I WILL APPROACH, IF I MIGHT, WITH 1006. YOU ARRIVED THERE AT ABOUT 2:10, RIGHT?

YES, SIR.

OKAY. LET ME APPROACH. I WANT YOU JUST TO READ IT TO YOURSELF, FIRST OF ALL, WHERE IT SAYS "PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN INVESTIGATORS." LOOK OVER THIS. CAN YOU READ THAT TO YOURSELF?

IT SAYS, "TIME LEFT, TEN O'CLOCK." I THOUGHT YOU MEANT THE FIRST TIME I LEFT THE LOCATION.

DOES IT SHOW THAT YOU LEFT AT SOME POINT IN BETWEEN THERE?

NO, IT DOES NOT.

ISN'T IT THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE OFFICER WHO LEAVES TO TELL THE OFFICERS KEEPING THE LOG THAT I'M LEAVING NOW AND I'M GOING SOMEPLACE ELSE? IS THAT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY?

I UNDERSTAND. THIS IS NOT PICK ON YOU TODAY.

I'M JUST TELLING YOU, I DIDN'T TELL HIM.

I APPRECIATE IT. SO WHEN HE SAYS THAT YOU WERE THERE FROM 2:10 TO TEN O'CLOCK, THAT IS NOT EXACTLY ACCURATE, IS IT?

THAT IS NOT ACCURATE.

IT WAS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE OFFICERS, AS THEY CAME AND WENT, TO TELL THE OFFICER WHOSE NAME IS CUMMINGS, I BELIEVE, WHO IS KEEPING THAT LOG; IS THAT RIGHT?

IT WOULD -- IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IN MY BEST INTEREST TO TELL HIM. THERE WAS SO MUCH ACTIVITY HE COULD NOT KEEP TRACK OF EVERYBODY.

YES. SO HE RELIED UPON EVERYBODY DOING THEIR JOBS IN WRITING THIS DOWN; IS THAT RIGHT, SIR?

THAT'S CORRECT.

OKAY. NOW, AT SOME POINT, THOUGH, DID YOU LEAVE -- DID YOU AND FUHRMAN LEAVE AT TEN O'CLOCK THAT MORNING, LEAVE THE BUNDY SCENE TO GO SOMEPLACE?

I DON'T THINK IN RECALLING THAT FUHRMAN AND I EVER LEFT A SECOND TIME TOGETHER, OTHER THAN THE FIVE O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING CALL. I BELIEVE I LEFT THE BUNDY LOCATION AT TEN O'CLOCK AND THAT IS PROBABLY WHAT HE PUT DOWN AS THE TIME THAT I WAS LEAVING. FUHRMAN AND I DID NOT TEAM UP AGAIN UNTIL MUCH, MUCH LATER IN THE DAY.

ALL RIGHT. SO WHERE IT SAYS "FUHRMAN AND PHILLIPS LEFT AT TEN O'CLOCK," THAT IS ALSO WRONG, RIGHT?

THAT IS ME LEAVING AT TEN O'CLOCK.

ALL RIGHT. AS FAR AS YOU KNOW THAT WAS NOT FUHRMAN LEAVING AT TEN O'CLOCK?

NO.

BUT YOU WILL AGREE THAT IN THE LOG BOTH PHILLIPS AND FUHRMAN ARE ON THE SAME LINE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S TRUE.

FOR A MOMENT -- YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT FUHRMAN. YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN ARE VERY, VERY CLOSE, AREN'T YOU?

FRIEND? YOU SEE EACH OTHER OFF WORK?

VERY, VERY RARELY.

BUT DON'T YOU WORK ON SOME KIND OF MOONLIGHTING JOBS? DON'T YOU DO WORK -- OFF-DUTY WORK WITH DETECTIVE FUHRMAN? HAVEN'T YOU DONE THAT?

I HAVE DONE THAT, BUT WE DON'T WORK TOGETHER.

BUT YOU HAVE BOTH WORKED AND DONE MOONLIGHTING JOBS?

YES.

SAME EMPLOYERS?

YES.

AND OVER WHAT PERIOD OF TIME DID YOU DO THAT?

MAYBE A YEAR, YEAR AND A HALF, TWO YEARS.

AGO OR JUST THAT LASTED FOR A YEAR, YEAR AND A HALF, TWO YEARS?

WELL, I HAVEN'T WORKED AT THAT LOCATION IN PROBABLY OVER A YEAR, SO IT IS --

OKAY.

A YEAR AND A HALF BEFORE THAT.

OKAY. ABOUT A YEAR AND A HALF BEFORE THAT AND YOU WORKED AT THIS -- THE LOCATION -- I WON'T ASK YOU THE LOCATION. YOU WORKED AT THE LOCATION FOR A YEAR, AT LEAST A YEAR, THE TWO OF YOU DID?

I THINK HE MIGHT HAVE WORKED THERE LONGER THAN I DID AND WORKED THERE AFTER I DID. I'M NOT SURE WHEN HE LEFT THAT EMPLOYMENT. I KNOW THAT I DID.

OKAY. THERE WAS A PERIOD OF TIME WHEN YOU BOTH WORKED AT THIS LOCATION, RIGHT?

BOTH WORKED THERE BUT NOT TOGETHER, SIR; ONLY ONE AT A TIME.

ALL RIGHT. BUT BOTH WORKED FOR THE SAME EMPLOYER?

YES, SIR.

AND THAT AT THE TIME YOU BOTH WORKED THERE WAS AT LEAST A YEAR; IS THAT CORRECT?

I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG HE WORKED THERE, SIR, AND I DON'T KNOW IF I WORKED THERE A WHOLE YEAR. I MAY HAVE. IT WAS CLOSE TO A YEAR.

ALL RIGHT. BUT AT ANY RATE, YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF A FRIEND OF HIS AND YOU WORKED TOGETHER FOR HOW MANY YEARS ALTOGETHER NOW?

I THINK MARK CAME TO THE ROBBERY UNIT IN -- I WANT TO SAY PROBABLY '91. HE WORKED UP IN DETECTIVES, BUT I DID NOT HAVE HIM AS A PARTNER AT THAT TIME. HE WORKED ANOTHER TABLE, COMPLETELY SEPARATE TABLE, SO I REALLY DIDN'T GET TO KNOW HIM UNTIL WE WORKED THE ROBBERY TABLE TOGETHER. I THINK THAT WAS '91.

SO THAT WAS '91, SO A MINIMUM OF THREE YEARS BEFORE THIS HAPPENED?

THAT'S CORRECT, YES.

ALL RIGHT. YOU KNEW WHO HE WAS BUT YOU BECAME CLOSE AND PARTNERS AFTER '91; IS THAT RIGHT?

WE BECAME CLOSE AS PARTNERS, YES.

ALL RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND. SO WHEN YOU RECEIVED THE CALL THAT MORNING TO COME OUT AND RESPOND TO THESE -- THIS HOMICIDE AT 875 BUNDY, DID YOU TELL SERGEANT ROSSI THAT YOU WOULD CALL DETECTIVE FUHRMAN YOURSELF?

I ALWAYS CALL THE DETECTIVES OUT, SO I DID TELL HIM THAT I WOULD CALL DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AND ALL THE OTHER DETECTIVES. I DO THAT ON EVERY CALLOUT.

ALL RIGHT. BUT DID YOU -- DID YOU SAY SPECIFICALLY, "DON'T CALL FUHRMAN, I WILL CALL HIM"?

NO. I SAYS, "YOU DON'T HAVE TO CALL ANYBODY, I WILL MAKE THE NOTIFICATIONS," WHICH I ALWAYS DO.

WERE YOU AWARE THAT ROSSI MADE A NUMBER OF OTHER CALLS, IN ADDITION TO CALLING YOU?

I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY PHONE CALLS THAT ROSSI MADE.

ALL RIGHT. BUT AT ANY RATE, YOU THEN CALLED FUHRMAN YOURSELF; IS THAT RIGHT, SIR?

HE IS THE FIRST DETECTIVE I CALLED, YES, FROM MY RESIDENCE.

WHAT TIME WAS IT AFTER YOU RECEIVED YOUR CALL?

I BELIEVE I RECEIVED MY CALL RIGHT AROUND ONE O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING, A MINUTE OR TWO BEFORE.

ALL RIGHT. AND THEN WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU CALLED DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

I BELIEVE I CALLED HIM AT 1:05 IN THE MORNING.

ALL RIGHT. I PRESUME AT THAT TIME OF MORNING BOTH OF YOU WERE AT HOME?

THAT IS WHERE I GOT HIM AND THAT IS WHERE I WAS AT, YES.

OKAY. THEREAFTER THE TWO OF YOU THEN MADE PLANS TO COME TO WEST LOS ANGELES STATION; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

I MADE THE PLANS TO MEET HIM AT WEST L.A. STATION TO PICK UP THE HOMICIDE UNIT.

ALL RIGHT. AS I UNDERSTAND IT, PRIOR TO THAT TIME, SINCE '91, THE TWO OF YOU HAD BEEN PARTNERS; IS THAT CORRECT?

WELL, PARTNERS IN THAT WE WORK THE ROBBERY TABLE TOGETHER. THERE WAS FOUR OF US THAT WORKED THE ROBBERY TABLE. I HAD BUSINESSES AND FOLLOW-HOME ROBBERIES ON ONE SIDE OF THE TABLE WITH A PARTNER. MARK FUHRMAN HAD STREET ROBBERIES AND CARJACKING ROBBERIES AND HE SAT DIRECTLY ACROSS FROM ME ON THE OTHER TABLE AND HE HAD A PARTNER. THERE WAS FOUR OF US THAT WORKED THAT TABLE.

SO WHEN YOU SAY "TABLE" YOU MEAN KIND OF LIKE A DESK OR A TABLE?

FIVE TABLES -- FIVE DESKS ALTOGETHER RUN BY A ROBBERY COORDINATOR.

IN WEST LOS ANGELES?

IN WEST LOS ANGELES.

SO THERE WAS A PERIOD OF TIME WHERE YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WERE PARTNERS IN CONJUNCTION WITH SOME OTHER DETECTIVES WHO WORKED THERE ALSO; IS THAT RIGHT?

YES.

ALL RIGHT.

AND WE HELPED EACH OTHER OUT ON THEIR CASES. IF HE NEEDED SOME HELP ON HIS CASES, THEN ME AND MY PARTNER WOULD HELP HIM AND VISA-VERSA SO WE DID WORK CASES TOGETHER, BUT HE WOULD HELP ME OUT ON MY CASES.

ALL RIGHT. I UNDERSTAND THAT.

OKAY.

WHO WERE THE OTHER OFFICERS OR DETECTIVES INVOLVED IN THIS TABLE, THIS ROBBERY TABLE?

WELL, THERE WERE SEVERAL OVER THAT PERIOD OF TIME. ONE OF THE SPOTS THAT WE HAD THERE -- WHEN I SAY "SPOTS," ONE OF THE DESKS -- WAS A TRAINEE SPOT THAT THE TRAINEE WOULD COME IN AND ONLY LAST -- NOT LAST -- BUT ONLY STAY AT THAT POSITION FOR SIX MONTHS.

THIS IS A HIGH STRESS BUSINESS, I KNOW?

BUT I TELL YOU, THEY ARE GOING TO BE MAD AT ME NOW, BUT THEY WOULD STAY THERE FOR SIX MONTHS AND THEN WE WOULD ROTATE THEM THROUGH THE REST OF THE TABLES, THE BURGLARY TABLE AND THE AUTO TABLE AND SO FORTH, TO GET THEM A WELL-ROUNDED EXPERIENCE.

ALL RIGHT.

SO THAT PARTICULAR TABLE MOVED AROUND A LOT.

WHO WAS CONSTANT? WHO STAYED THERE FROM '91 TO '94? ANY DETECTIVE WHO HAS BEEN THERE IN ADDITION TO YOU AND FUHRMAN?

JUST THE COORDINATOR IS THE ONLY ONE THAT IS STILL THERE THAT WAS THERE WHEN I WAS THERE WITH MARK FUHRMAN AND THAT IS THE COORDINATOR OF THE ROBBERY UNIT.

WHO IS THAT?

ROBERT TAPIA.

SO AT ANY RATE, WHEN YOU CALLED MARK FUHRMAN AT HOME AT 1:05, SOMEONE YOU WORKED WITH OVER A PERIOD OF TIME AND SOMEONE YOU KNEW; IS THAT CORRECT?

WELL, YEAH, HE WORKED MY HOMICIDE UNIT.

YOU WORKED WITH HIM?

YES.

WHEN YOU SAW HIM THAT MORNING BEFORE YOU GOT TO THE STATION -- BEFORE YOU WENT OUT TO ROCKINGHAM, YOU DESCRIBED, I THINK YESTERDAY, THAT HE RARELY WORE A JACKET. DO YOU REMEMBER YOU SAYING THAT?

YES.

AND DID HE HAVE A JACKET ON WHEN YOU FIRST SAW HIM THAT MORNING?

NO.

WOULD YOU BE SURPRISED TO LEARN THAT LATER THAT DAY ON ROCKINGHAM HE HAD A BLUE BLAZER ON?

IT WOULDN'T SURPRISE ME AT ALL.

OKAY. WELL, DID YOU SEE HIM AT SOME POINT PUT ON A BLAZER WITH THOSE SLACKS YOU SAW HIM IN IN THOSE PICTURES?

HE TAKES IT OFF AND PUTS IT ON AND TAKES IT OFF AND PUTS IT ON ALL THE TIME AND DIFFERENT TIMES HE HAS IT AND DIFFERENT TIMES HE DOESN'T.

OKAY. SO IN OTHER WORDS, HE HAS A JACKET; HE DOESN'T ALWAYS WEAR IT? IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING?

HE USUALLY LEAVES IT IN THE CAR.

ALL RIGHT. BUT HE HAS A JACKET SOMEWHERE AROUND?

HE HAS ALWAYS GOT ONE WITH HIM.

I WANTED TO CLEAR THAT UP. HE HAS A JACKET WITH HIM, HE MAY NOT ALWAYS WEAR IT; IS THAT RIGHT?

YES, HE ALWAYS HAS A JACKET IN THE CAR OR AT THE CRIME SCENE.

SO YOU WOULDN'T BE SURPRISED TO SEE HIM AT ROCKINGHAM LATER THAT DAY WITH A BLUE BLAZER?

NO, NOT AT ALL.

NOW, AFTER THE TWO OF YOU GOT TO THE STATION, DID YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN THEN GO IN ONE CAR TO THE BUNDY LOCATION?

YES, WE DID.

OKAY. THEN YOU ARRIVED AT THE LOCATION AND YOU HAVE DESCRIBED FOR US YOUR ARRIVAL THERE AT ABOUT WHAT TIME? 2:10 IN THE MORNING?

YES.

AND WHEN YOU GOT THERE AT 2:10 IN THE MORNING, YOU WERE THE SENIOR AS BETWEEN YOU AND FUHRMAN; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES.

IN ADDITION TO BEING THE SENIOR, YOU WERE ALSO KIND OF A COORDINATOR OF HOMICIDE ACTIVITY OUT THERE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

WELL, I'M THE HOMICIDE COORDINATOR FOR WEST LOS ANGELES DIVISION. I ALSO OUTRANK HIM.

ALL RIGHT. SO YOU WERE SENIOR?

YES.

IN THIS REGARD YOU WERE SENIOR ALSO TO SERGEANT ROSSI WHO WAS THERE AS THE FIELD SERGEANT AT THAT POINT, RIGHT? YOU OUTRANK HIM?

IT IS NOT REALLY AN OUTRANKING. WE ARE BASICALLY THE SAME RANK BECAUSE THERE IS DIFFERENT TWO RANK STRUCTURES HERE YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. ONE IS A PATROL RANK STRUCTURE, THAT'S CORRECT, AND ONE IS A DETECTIVE RANK STRUCTURE. A DETECTIVE 3, WHICH I AM, AND A SERGEANT 2, WHICH HE IS, I THINK THE ONLY -- THE REASON SOMEONE MIGHT THINK I OUTRANKED HIM IS BECAUSE I MAY MAKE A COUPLE OF DOLLARS MORE A YEAR THAN HE DOES.

IS THAT WHY HE THOUGHT IT?

BUT AS FAR AS RANK GOES, WE ARE BASICALLY EQUAL. IT DEPENDS ON WHETHER YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A PATROL FUNCTION, THEN HE WOULD BE THE SUPERVISOR IN CHARGE. IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A DETECTIVE FUNCTION, THEN I WOULD BE THE SUPERVISOR IN CHARGE.

ALL RIGHT. AT ANY RATE ONCE YOU GOT TO THE SCENE, THIS BEING A HOMICIDE OR TWO HOMICIDES, YOU WERE THE RANKING OFFICER; IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

SO FROM 2:10 IN THE MORNING UNTIL APPROXIMATELY 4:10, WHEN WE HAVE THE ARRIVAL OF PHIL VANNATTER, YOU WERE IN CHARGE OF THIS CRIME SCENE; IS THAT RIGHT?

NO. I WAS IN CHARGE OF THAT CRIME SCENE UNTIL 2:38 THAT MORNING WHEN I MADE A PHONE CALL TO CAPTAIN GARTLAND AND I WAS RELIEVED OF THAT RESPONSIBILITY OF BEING IN CHARGE OF THAT CRIME SCENE.

WELL, LET'S SEE NOW. SO 2:10 -- YOU WERE IN CHARGE FROM 2:10 TO 2:38, RIGHT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

VANNATTER DIDN'T COME UNTIL 4:10, DID HE?

4:05 OR 4:10.

SOMETIME AFTER FOUR O'CLOCK IN THE MORNING?

RIGHT.

SO YOU WERE STILL THE RANKING HOMICIDE DETECTIVE AT THAT SCENE UNTIL VANNATTER ARRIVED; IS THAT CORRECT?

I WAS THE RANKING HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, BUT LIEUTENANT SPANGLER OUTRANKED ME AND CAPTAIN CONNIE DIAL OUTRANKED ME, WHO WERE ALSO AT THAT LOCATION.

AREN'T THEY LIKE IN MANAGEMENT? YOU ARE THE NUTS AND BOLTS. YOU ARE THE MAN WHO IS THE HOMICIDE DETECTIVE; IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

ARE THE MAN WHO IS THE COORDINATOR FOR WEST LOS ANGELES, RIGHT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

ALL RIGHT. WHAT YOU ARE TELLING US IS THAT AT 2:38, WHEN YOU TALKED TO CAPTAIN GARTLAND WHO IS IN CHARGE OF ROBBERY/HOMICIDE DOWNTOWN, A DECISION HAD BEEN MADE TO TRANSFER THIS CASE TO ROBBERY/HOMICIDE BECAUSE OF THE GREATER PROLIFERATION OF PERSON POWER DOWNTOWN AND RESOURCES? IS THAT WHAT YOU TOLD US?

THAT'S CORRECT.

YOU WERE STILL A HOMICIDE DETECTIVE OUT THERE AT THAT SCENE; IS THAT CORRECT?

IF SOMETHING NEEDED TO BE DONE, THEN I WOULD HAVE DONE IT, BUT SINCE NOTHING HAD TO BE DONE, I WASN'T IN CHARGE OF ANYTHING. I WAS JUST MERELY STANDING AROUND, AS EVERYBODY ELSE WAS, WAITING FOR THE HOMICIDE DETECTIVES THAT WERE IN CHARGE OF THAT INVESTIGATION TO ARRIVE.

WHEN YOU WERE STANDING AROUND OUT THERE, JUST STANDING AROUND WAITING FOR SOMETHING TO BE DONE, DID ANYBODY EVER BRING UP THE SUBJECT, GEE, WE MIGHT WANT TO DETERMINE THE TIME OF DEATH HERE BECAUSE THAT MIGHT BE IMPORTANT IN A CASE IF A CASE IS EVER BROUGHT? DID YOU GUYS EVER BRING THAT UP?

NO.

NOBODY EVER THOUGHT ABOUT IT?

NOT THAT WE DIDN'T THINK ABOUT IT; NOBODY BROUGHT IT UP.

NOBODY SAID THAT? OKAY. WELL, IT IS TRUE, IS IT NOT, THAT AT ABOUT 2:50 IN THE MORNING YOU DECIDED -- YOU REMEMBERED THOSE REGULATIONS IN THE POLICE MANUAL AND YOU REMEMBERED THAT SECTION THAT MADE IT A MISDEMEANOR NOT TO CALL THE CORONER AND YOU DECIDED I BETTER CALL THE CORONER, DIDN'T YOU?

I DIDN'T REMEMBER THE SECTION ABOUT BEING A MISDEMEANOR. I DIDN'T REMEMBER THAT AT ALL. WHAT I WAS MERELY GOING TO DO WAS MAKE FIRST CALL NOTIFICATION TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE ABOUT WHAT WE HAD. I WAS NOT ASKING REQUESTING THEM TO COME TO THAT LOCATION.

YOU TOLD US AT 2:10 YOU WANTED TO MAKE A CALL TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE, RIGHT?

TO MAKE FIRST NOTIFICATION THAT WE HAD A DOUBLE HOMICIDE OUT IN WEST LOS ANGELES; NOT TO ASK THE CORONER'S OFFICE TO RESPOND.

OKAY. LET ME FINISH THE QUESTION.

OKAY.

AT 2:50 YOU WERE GOING TO MAKE A NOTIFICATION TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE, RIGHT?

FIRST CALL NOTIFICATION.

ALL RIGHT. AS A GOOD DETECTIVE YOU KNEW THAT WAS IMPORTANT TO DO; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

I WAS GOING TO DO IT AS A COURTESY. THAT IS ALL I WAS GOING TO DO IT FOR. IT MEANT NOTHING OTHER THAN TO MAKE THAT PHONE CALL.

WHO WERE YOU DOING A COURTESY FOR?

JUST TO GET PHONE CALL OUT OF THE WAY.

YOU MENTIONED EARLIER, IN RESPONSE TO ONE OF MISS CLARK'S QUESTIONS, ISN'T THERE A CERTAIN QUESTION OF DIGNITY OF THESE BODIES LAYING OUT, WOULDN'T YOU ALSO WANT TO GET THOSE MOVED AT SOME POINT?

YEAH, BUT EVEN IF I HAD MADE THAT PHONE CALL, MR. COCHRAN, THEY STILL WOULD NOT HAVE HAD THE CORONER'S OFFICE RESPOND AT THAT TIME.

BUT SIR, WOULDN'T THEY BE THAT MUCH FURTHER AHEAD IF THEY KNEW AT 2:50 THEY NIGHT GET OUT THERE BEFORE 9:10? WOULDN'T THAT BE SOMETHING YOU MIGHT BE CONCERNED ABOUT AT ALL AS A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATOR?

IT WOULD HAVE MADE NO DIFFERENCE UPON THEIR ARRIVAL. IF I MADE THAT CALL AT 2:50 OR 6:50, THE CORONER'S CAME AFTER WE TOLD THEM TO COME.

SO THAT WE ARE CLEAR, THE LAPD CONTROLS WHEN THE CORONER'S OFFICE COMES? THAT IS YOUR POLICY, RIGHT?

THEY DON'T COME OUT THERE UNTIL WE CALL THEM UP AND TELL THEM WE ARE READY FOR THEM TO RESPOND.

YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD THAT THEY ARE UPSET ABOUT THAT POLICY?

NO ONE HAS EVER TOLD ME THAT THEY WERE UPSET ABOUT IT AND I HAVEN'T READ ANYTHING ABOUT THEM BEING UPSET ABOUT IT. I KNOW WE TRY TO WORK TOGETHER BETTER AS TIME GOES ON. WE TRY TO IMPROVE THINGS SO OUR RESPONSE TIME AND THEIR RESPONSE TIME IS BETTER FOR BOTH AGENCIES, SO THERE IS NOT SO MUCH DOWN TIME. I KNOW WE ARE CONSTANTLY TRYING TO IMPROVE THINGS.

TRYING TO IMPROVE YOUR COORDINATION AND COMMUNICATION?

THAT'S CORRECT.

SO AT ANY RATE, YOU HAD DECIDED TO MAKE THE FIRST CALL AT 2:50, BUT LIEUTENANT SPANGLER TOLD YOU DON'T DO THAT, GAVE YOU AN ORDER NOT TO; IS THAT CORRECT?

THAT'S CORRECT.

SO YOU DIDN'T MAKE THE CALL THEN?

I DID NOT MAKE THE CALL.

YOU CONTINUED TO STAND AROUND AT THIS SCENE; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES.

OKAY. NOW, AT SOME POINT YOU WERE SHOWN -- MISS CLARK TOOK YOU THROUGH ALL THIS -- THIS LITANY OF PLACES THAT YOU WENT. YOU WERE SHOWN AROUND THE SCENE OF THE CRIME; IS THAT CORRECT?

JUST CURSORY, YES.

OKAY. WELL, CURSORY.

SHOWN AROUND THE SCENE, YES, SIR.

ALL RIGHT. ALL RIGHT. AT SOME TIME YOU WERE SHOWN INSIDE THE HOUSE; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

ONE OF THE REASONS YOU WANTED TO GO INSIDE THE HOUSE, AS AN EXPERIENCED HOMICIDE DETECTIVE, WAS TO HIM GET A VIEW OF WHAT WAS GOING ON SO THAT YOU COULD BRIEF VANNATTER AND LANGE WHEN THEY CAME AS TO WHAT YOU HAD THERE; ISN'T THAT RIGHT?

NO. THE CALL -- THE SEARCH -- NOT THE SEARCH, THE CURSORY LOOK THAT I DID THROUGH THAT RESIDENCE WAS DONE BEFORE I MADE THE CALL TO ROBBERY/HOMICIDE. I WAS DOING THAT BECAUSE IT WAS STILL OUR CASE.

OKAY. I UNDERSTAND THAT. THAT IS BETWEEN 2:10 AND 2:38; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES, SIR.

THAT IS WHEN RISKE AND THE OTHERS SHOWED YOU AND FUHRMAN AROUND; ISN'T THAT CORRECT?

YES.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT NOW. YOU WENT INTO THE RESIDENCE, I BELIEVE, THROUGH THE BACK TO THE REAR PART OF THE RESIDENCE, RIGHT?

THROUGH THE GARAGE.

OKAY. FIRST OF ALL, YOU -- I WANT TO CLEAR UP ONE THING, IF I CAN. YOUR HONOR, I WANT TO MARK THIS AS DEFENDANT'S NEXT, 1020.

1020, ALL RIGHT.

A PHOTOGRAPH.

MR. COCHRAN, THAT IS A PHOTOGRAPH?

YES, YOUR HONOR. THIS IS A PHOTOGRAPH OF A BLACK JEEP AND I WOULD LIKE VERY MUCH TO PUT D-1020 ON IT AND I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH THIS -- THIS WITNESS AND ASK HIM ABOUT IT.

I WANT TO SHOW YOU A BLACK JEEP CHEROKEE AND I WANT TO PLACE IT RIGHT BEFORE YOU AND ASK YOU --

PICK IT UP?

PLEASE LOOK AT IT AND ASK YOU IF THAT APPEARS -- THAT YOU RECOGNIZE THAT JEEP?

I GUESS IT IS THE JEEP THAT WAS IN BACK OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY. I DON'T REMEMBER THE LICENSE NUMBER OF IT. AND THAT LOOKS LIKE IT IS PROBABLY THE PLACE.

THE JEEP THAT YOU SAW IN THE BACK OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY, THAT WAS A BLACK JEEP, WASN'T IT?

YES.

IT WASN'T DARK GREEN, WAS IT.

MAY I? LOOKS LIKE A BLACK JEEP TO ME, SIR.

OKAY. WELL, LET'S SHOW IT ON THE ELMO AND SEE IF WE ALL AGREE IT IS BLACK. MAY I SHOW IT ON THE ELMO?

YOU MAY.

BY MR. COCHRAN: NOW, THAT IS THE JEEP; IS THAT CORRECT?

YES.

OKAY. AND THAT AREA AROUND THE JEEP -- SO THAT LITTLE MARKING IN THE FRONT, RIGHT BY THE RIGHT FRONT TIRE THERE, DO YOU SEE THAT MARKING? IS THAT AN LAPD MARKING OF SOME KIND?

I DON'T SEE THE MARKING.

ONE OF THE RULERS?

I DON'T SEE THE MARKING YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, SIR.

I'M SORRY. YOU CAN LOOK AND SEE THAT. SEE THAT LITTLE MARKING THERE? I WILL POINT IT OUT FOR YOU.

RIGHT THERE. THANK YOU. I'M BEING OVERSHADOWED, YOUR HONOR.

IS THAT AN LAPD MARKING THERE?

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS, SIR. I CAN'T SEE IT WELL ENOUGH TO DECIDE WHAT IT IS.

YOU CAN'T SEE IT. I UNDERSTAND. I UNDERSTAND. THERE WAS A TIME YOU COULD PROBABLY SEE THAT, RIGHT?

BEFORE THAT --

DON'T ANSWER THAT. AT ANY RATE, THAT AREA WAS TO THE REAR OF THE 875 BUNDY LOCATION, RIGHT?

WHERE YOU SAW THE JEEP?

YES.

OKAY. AND BACK THERE, BY THE WAY, DIDN'T YOU TESTIFY WASN'T THERE SOME CHANGE ON THE GROUND BACK THERE?

YES.

AND WERE THERE SOME DIMES AND PENNIES BACK AT THAT LOCATION?

I DO NOT RECALL AT ALL WHAT THE CHANGE DENOMINATION WAS.

OKAY. AT ANY RATE, AFTER YOU -- YOU WENT PAST THIS JEEP, YOU WENT INSIDE THE HOUSE; IS THAT CORRECT?

EVENTUALLY, YES.

OKAY. NOW, LET ME ASK YOU THIS: WAS THERE ROOM ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THAT JEEP FOR ANOTHER VEHICLE TO BE PULLED ALONGSIDE THERE, IF YOU RECALL, THAT IS ON THE NORTH SIDE OF THE JEEP?

I DON'T -- I WOULD SAY PROBABLY NOT, BUT THEN THERE IS SOME AWFUL SMALL CARS, SO I WOULD SAY NORMALLY NO.

ALL RIGHT.

WHAT I REMEMBER, NO.

DO YOU REMEMBER HOW MUCH SPACE WAS BETWEEN THE JEEP AND THE FENCE?

IT WASN'T THAT MUCH SPACE BUT I DON'T RECALL WHAT IT IS.

ALL RIGHT. NOW, IN LOOKING AT THE JEEP, YOU NOTICED -- I BELIEVE YOU TOLD US THAT THE DOOR WAS AJAR ON THAT JEEP, RIGHT?

WELL, IT LOOKED LIKE IT HAD BEEN CLOSED BUT IT DIDN'T CLOSE ALL THE WAY TO WHERE THE LOCK LATCHED ALL THE WAY. IT WAS JUST AJAR MAYBE A HALF AN INCH OR SOMETHING.

ALL RIGHT. WHAT IS YOUR -- I WAS GOING TO ASK YOU, WHAT IS YOUR RECOLLECTION? WAS IT ABOUT THREE INCHES BETWEEN THE DOOR AND THE CLOSING THERE? WAS ABOUT IT A THREE-INCH SPACE THERE?

YOU MEAN WHERE THE DOOR DIDN'T CLOSE ALL THE WAY?

YES, SIR. YES, SIR.

I JUST RECALL IT WAS AJAR. I RECALL MAYBE A HALF AN INCH TO AN INCH.

ALL RIGHT. IF SOMEBODY SAID IT WAS THREE INCHES, THEY WOULD BE WRONG?

I'M NOT SAYING THEY WOULD BE WRONG. MY RECOLLECTION IS IT IS A HALF AN INCH TO AN INCH. I COULD BE WRONG.

I UNDERSTAND THAT. DID YOU GO LOOK? DID YOU GO WALK OVER TO IT AND LOOK?

DIDN'T PAY MUCH ATTENTION TO IT AFTER I WAS POINTED IT OUT ONE TIME.

KIND OF A CURSORY LOOK?

THAT'S CORRECT.

THEN YOU WENT INSIDE?

THAT'S CORRECT.

WHEN YOU WALKED INSIDE YOU REMEMBER THAT BANISTER DOWN AT THE BOTTOM STAIRS? DID YOU SEE SOME ICE CREAM THERE, SOME MELTING ICE CREAM?

YES, SIR, I DID.

NOW, LET'S TIME -- THIS WAS AT ONE WHAT TIME WOULD YOU HAVE GONE IN THERE? THIS WAS BETWEEN 2:10 AND 2:38?

YES.

WHAT KIND OF ICE CREAM WAS THAT?

I HAVE NO IDEA.

DOES THE NAME BEN AND JERRY'S?

I THOUGHT YOU MEANT THE FLAVOR.

THE BRAND NAME. DOES THE NAME BEN AND JERRY'S RING A BELL?

IT WAS A BEN AND JERRY'S ICE CREAM CUP.

CAN YOU ESTIMATE FOR US HOW BIG THAT CUP WAS AROUND THE BOTTOM?

PROBABLY A COUPLE OF INCHES. I ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS -- I DON'T LIKE ICE CREAM THAT MUCH, I DON'T EAT IT THAT MUCH, BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS A ONE-SCOOP CUP.

ARE YOU AN EXPERT IN THIS AREA?

NO, NOT AT ALL. I VERY RARELY EAT ICE CREAM.

SO WE SHOULDN'T TAKE YOUR WORD?

NOT AT ALL.

IT LOOKED LIKE ALL ONE FLAVOR, THOUGH, TO YOU?

YES.

ALL RIGHT. NOW, BY THE WAY, AT THE TIME YOU SAW THIS, THIS IS BETWEEN 2:10 AND 2:38, RIGHT?

YES.

THIS PHOTOGRAPHER, ROKAHR -- FOR THE RECORD, R-O-K-A-H-R -- HE WAS AT THE SCENE BY THEN, WASN'T HE?

I DON'T THINK HE ARRIVED UNTIL, WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE LOG, SOMEWHERE THREE O'CLOCK, AT THREE O'CLOCK, THREE --

WELL, OKAY. BEFORE WE TALK MORE ABOUT THE ICE CREAM, LET ME SHOW YOU A REPORT AND ASK YOU -- I WILL SHOW YOU TWO REPORTS.

I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH, YOUR HONOR.

YOU MAY.

BY MR. COCHRAN: I WANT TO SHOW YOU A REPORT FROM AN INDIVIDUAL BY THE NAME OF ROLF ROKAHR, R-O-L-F R-O-K-A-H-R. THIS REPORT WAS TAKEN ON 11/22/94 AND APPARENTLY IT WAS A TELEPHONIC INTERVIEW. I WANT YOU TO REVIEW AND READ THIS SECOND FULL PARAGRAPH, FIRST OF ALL. READ THAT TO YOURSELF.

YOUR HONOR --

YES.

THERE WILL BE AN OBJECTION. I WOULD LIKE TO APPROACH.

OKAY.

ALL RIGHT.