Direct examination of Ronald Phillips (part 5)

📄 Direct examination of Ronald Phillips (part 5) — Wednesday, February 15, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\FEB\15\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-RONALD-P.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 19 of 167

◀ Sidebar: VIP treatment procedures Sidebar: directions to Rockingham ▶

Witness: Det. Ronald Phillips
Examiner: Marcia Clark
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Wednesday, February 15, 1995 • Utterances: 120

Detective Phillips testified about the VIP notification process ordered by Commander Bushey, explaining why he and three other detectives drove to OJ Simpson's Rockingham home in the early morning hours after the murders. He described the logistics of the two-car caravan, the timeline of arrivals at Bundy, and his intention to shield Simpson from the trauma of seeing the crime scene. Marcia Clark repeatedly tried and failed to establish how Fuhrman knew the route to Rockingham, with Cochran successfully blocking each attempt as hearsay.

# 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

# 2 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU, COUNSEL. MISS CLARK, WOULD YOU PROCEED, PLEASE.

# 3 MS. CLARK:

YES. THANK YOU.

# 4 THE COURT:

YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT NOTIFICATIONS.

# 5 MS. CLARK:

RIGHT. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 6 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DETECTIVE PHILLIPS, HAVE YOU BEEN REQUESTED TO GIVE VIP TREATMENT BEFORE, SIR?

# 7 A:

YES.

# 8 Q:

AND TELL US WHAT IS MEANT BY THAT.

# 9 A:

WELL, IT'S A LITTLE BIT EXTRA THAT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT DOES. WE HAVE A LOT OF INDIVIDUALS IN WEST LOS ANGELES DIVISION THAT -- CELEBRITY, VIP'S, WEALTHY PEOPLE. SOMETIMES THEIR NAME COMES ACROSS AND THE DEPARTMENT DOES CERTAIN THINGS TO, YOU KNOW, TO HELP THEM OUT OR DO CERTAIN THINGS A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN ON A NORMAL OCCASION.

# 10 Q:

ON HOW MANY OCCASIONS HAVE YOU BEEN REQUESTED BY COMMANDER BUSHEY TO MAKE PERSONAL NOTIFICATION TO THE NEXT OF KIN IN A HOMICIDE CASE?

# 11 A:

THIS WOULD BE THE FIRST TIME.

# 12 Q:

NOW, YOU'RE A HOMICIDE DETECTIVE; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 13 A:

YES.

# 14 Q:

IS THERE A POLICY WITH RESPECT TO HOW NOTIFICATIONS TO NEXT OF KIN ARE SUPPOSED TO BE MADE?

# 15 A:

YES.

# 16 Q:

AND WHAT IS THAT POLICY?

# 17 A:

THE POLICY IS THAT WHENEVER PRACTICAL, THE HOMICIDE INVESTIGATOR ASSIGNED TO THE CASE SHOULD NOTIFY THE NEXT OF KIN IF THE NEXT OF KIN LIVES IN THE AREA THAT THE HOMICIDE OCCURRED. IF THEY DO NOT LIVE IN THAT AREA, THEY LIVE OUTSIDE THE AREA, THEN A POLICE OFFICER FROM THAT ADJOINING AREA WOULD MAKE THAT NOTIFICATION, AND IF IT'S OUT OF STATE, THEN WE WOULD MAKE INQUIRIES TO THAT JURISDICTION TO MAKE NOTIFICATIONS THEN.

# 18 Q:

ALL RIGHT. IS IT DONE -- IS THE POLICY TO MAKE THOSE NOTIFICATIONS IN PERSON OR BY TELEPHONE?

# 19 A:

WHENEVER POSSIBLE, IT'S TO BE DONE IN PERSON.

# 20 Q:

AND WHY IS THAT?

# 21 A:

WELL, I THINK IT'S THE COURTEOUS THING TO DO THAT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT TRIES TO DO INSTEAD OF MAKING A PHONE CALL AND TELLING SOMEBODY THAT SOMEBODY'S DEAD. WE TRY TO DO IT THIS WAY. IT DOESN'T ALWAYS WORK THAT WAY, BUT WE TRY.

# 22 Q:

SO WHY IS IT SO UNUSUAL THAT COMMANDER BUSHEY TOLD YOU TO MAKE THE NOTIFICATION TO THE DEFENDANT IN PERSON?

# 23 A:

IT'S NOT UNUSUAL THAT WE WERE MAKING THE NOTIFICATION. IT'S UNUSUAL THAT THE COMMANDER GAVE ME A DIRECT ORDER THAT I SHOULD DO EVERYTHING I COULD TO FIND MR. SIMPSON AND NOTIFY HIM IN PERSON BEFORE THE NEWS MEDIA BECAME AWARE OF WHAT HAPPENED OUT AT THAT RESIDENCE. HE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE VERY INSENSITIVE IF WE KNEW ABOUT IT AND DID NOT NOTIFY HIM IN PERSON PRIOR TO THE NEWS MEDIA NOTIFYING HIM.

# 24 Q:

NOW, AT THE TIME THAT YOU INFORMED DETECTIVE LANGE AND DETECTIVE VANNATTER THAT YOU WERE GOING TO GO OUT TO NOTIFY THE DEFENDANT, WAS THERE SOME DECISION OR DISCUSSION CONCERNING WHETHER THEY WOULD GO WITH YOU OR NOT?

# 25 A:

WELL, IT WAS KIND OF A CONVERSA -- YES. IT WAS A CONVERSATION THAT TOOK PART -- AND THIS WAS ALL PART OF THE SAME CONVERSATION. WE WERE ALL TALKING AT ONE TIME.

# 26 Q:

AND WHAT WAS DISCUSSED ABOUT THAT?

# 27 A:

WELL, I WAS MAKING THE STATEMENT THAT I NEED TO GO UP AND NOTIFY O.J. SIMPSON IF I CAN ABOUT THIS DEATH, AND THEY WERE MAKING THE STATEMENT, WELL, WE SHOULD PROBABLY GO UP AND TALK TO O.J. SIMPSON AT THE SAME TIME AND GET A STATEMENT FROM HIM OR MAYBE HE CAN GIVE US SOME INFORMATION. AND IT WAS DETERMINED THAT SINCE THEY WERE THE INVESTIGATING OFFICERS ON THE SCENE AND THEY WERE THE ONES THAT WERE GOING TO DO THE INVESTIGATION, THAT THEY SHOULD BE THE ONES TO TALK TO O.J. SIMPSON, AND AFTER HE WAS TALKED TO, THEN I WOULD TAKE IT FROM THERE.

# 28 Q:

ALL RIGHT. SO DID YOU WANT THE DETECTIVES LANGE AND VANNATTER TO GO ALONG BECAUSE THEY WERE THINKING -- YOU WERE ALL JUST CONSIDERING THE DEFENDANT TO BE A SUSPECT AT THAT TIME?

# 29 A:

NO. WE NEVER CONSIDERED MR. SIMPSON TO BE A SUSPECT AT THAT TIME.

KEY QUOTE

# 30 Q:

WHAT WAS THE INFORMATION THAT EVERYBODY WAS THINKING HE COULD GIVE?

# 31 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, HOW WOULD HE KNOW?

# 32 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 33 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WHAT DID YOU THINK HE COULD GIVE? WHAT INFORMATION DID YOU THINK MR. SIMPSON COULD GIVE AT THAT TIME?

# 34 A:

WELL, FOR ONE THING, WE HAD A BODY THERE THAT WE HAD NO IDEA WHO THAT WAS. THAT WAS A MALE BODY THERE. WE DIDN'T KNOW IF MR. SIMPSON HAD ANY KNOWLEDGE OF MRS. SIMPSON'S WHEREABOUTS THE NIGHT BEFORE, UH, IF HE COULD GIVE US SOME INFORMATION ON WHO THIS PERSON WAS. AS FAR AS WE KNEW, THE INDIVIDUAL THAT WAS LYING THERE COULD HAVE EASILY BEEN A SUSPECT. WE HAD NO IDEA WHO THIS INDIVIDUAL WAS.

# 35 Q:

SO THEN WERE ARRANGEMENTS MADE TO GO TO THE DEFENDANT'S HOME?

# 36 A:

YES, THERE WAS.

# 37 Q:

HOW DID YOU FIND OUT WHERE THAT WAS?

# 38 A:

I BELIEVE DETECTIVE FUHRMAN ASKED OFFICER RISKE TO RUN THE JEEP AT THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE TO SEE WHAT ADDRESS IT CAME BACK TO.

# 39 Q:

AND WHAT ADDRESS DID IT COME BACK TO?

# 40 A:

360 ROCKINGHAM.

# 41 Q:

SO HOW DID YOU DECIDE TO PROCEED TO 360 ROCKINGHAM?

# 42 A:

360.

# 43 Q:

360.

# 44 A:

YES. DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AND I WENT IN OUR CAR AND DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND LANGE WENT IN THEIR CAR, AND WE WENT FIRST TO BASICALLY CUT DOWN THE TIME AND SHOW THEM WHAT THE QUICKEST ROUTE TO THAT LOCATION WAS.

# 45 Q:

SO YOU WENT IN TWO SEPARATE CARS?

# 46 A:

YES. THERE WAS A REASON FOR THAT.

# 47 Q:

AND WHAT WAS THE REASON FOR THAT?

# 48 A:

WELL, THEY, VANNATTER AND LANGE, WERE GOING TO RETURN AS SOON AS THEY TALKED TO MR. SIMPSON. FUHRMAN AND I WERE GOING TO STAY AT THE SIMPSON RESIDENCE. AND MY THEORY ALONG WITH -- AFTER TALKING TO LIEUTENANT SPANGLER BEFORE WE LEFT THIS LOCATION, WAS THAT WE WERE GOING TO OFFER MR. SIMPSON A RIDE IF POSSIBLE IF HE WANTED IT BACK TO WEST L.A. STATION TO PICK UP HIS CHILDREN. THERE WAS A POSSIBILITY HE MAY HAVE BEEN TOO UPSET TO DRIVE OR THAT WE SHOULD HAVE ALLOWED HIM TO DRIVE. I DID NOT WANT MR. SIMPSON GOING BACK TO THE BUNDY LOCATION TO SEE THE SCENE. SO I WAS GOING TO DO WHATEVER I COULD TO KEEP HIM FROM GOING TO BUNDY. SO I WAS GOING TO OFFER MR. SIMPSON MY SERVICES, MY POLICE VEHICLE UNTIL HE GOT SOME SUPPORT OR AT LEAST WE GOT HIS CHILDREN BACK TO HIM.

# 49 Q:

OKAY. WHY DID YOU WANT TO KEEP HIM FROM THE BUNDY SCENE?

# 50 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. THAT'S APPARENTLY CLEAR.

# 51 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 52 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

WELL, I DIDN'T WANT MR. SIMPSON GOING BACK TO SEE THE VERY BLOODY CRIME SCENE. I HAD NO IDEA AT THAT TIME THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MR. SIMPSON AND NICOLE BROWN.

# 53 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: SO YOU WANTED TO PREVENT HIM FROM THE TRAUMA OF SEEING THAT?

# 54 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, OBJECT TO THIS. LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.

# 55 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. LEADING.

# 56 MS. CLARK:

SORRY.

# 57 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU HAVE SOME CONCERN FOR MR. SIMPSON'S WELFARE IN GOING BACK TO THE 875 SOUTH BUNDY SCENE?

# 58 MR. COCHRAN:

LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE, YOUR HONOR.

# 59 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 60 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

YES.

# 61 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND WHAT WAS THAT CONCERN?

# 62 A:

I DID NOT WANT HIM TO HAVE TO FACE AND SEE THAT SCENE, WHICH WAS A VERY BLOODY SCENE, A VERY TRAUMATIC SCENE.

# 63 Q:

SO YOU TOOK TWO CARS?

# 64 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 65 Q:

AND YOU WERE THE LEAD YOU SAID?

# 66 A:

YES.

# 67 Q:

AND WHY WERE YOU LEADING?

# 68 A:

DETECTIVE FUHRMAN KNEW THE WAY.

# 69 Q:

HAD -- HAD ONE OF THE OTHER OFFICERS AT THE SCENE TOLD DETECTIVE FUHRMAN HOW TO GET THERE THAT NIGHT?

# 70 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, THAT CALLS FOR HEARSAY, YOUR HONOR.

# 71 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 72 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: BEFORE YOU LEFT, DID DETECTIVE FUHRMAN SAY HE WAS GOING TO GO AND ASK FOR DIRECTIONS?

# 73 MR. COCHRAN:

HEARSAY.

# 74 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 75 MS. CLARK:

UNDER --

# 76 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 77 MS. CLARK:

I CAN'T GIVE THE THEORY. I HAVE A THEORY.

# 78 THE COURT:

I THOUGHT OF THE THEORY. I'VE SUSTAINED IT.

# 79 MR. COCHRAN:

IT'S STILL HEARSAY.

# 80 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 81 MR. COCHRAN:

THANK YOU.

# 82 THE COURT:

YOU ARE WELCOME.

# 83 MS. CLARK:

I HAVEN'T TRIED.

# 84 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 85 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: OKAY. OKAY. SO YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN LED AND THEN DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND DETECTIVE LANGE FOLLOWED IN THEIR CAR?

# 86 A:

YES.

# 87 Q:

ABOUT HOW LONG DID IT TAKE YOU TO GET TO THE LOCATION OF 360 ROCKINGHAM FROM 875 SOUTH BUNDY?

# 88 A:

NO MORE THAN FIVE MINUTES.

# 89 Q:

WHAT TIME -- BACK UP. I FORGOT TO ASK YOU SOMETHING. WHAT TIME DID DETECTIVE VANNATTER GET TO THE LOCATION OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY THAT NIGHT?

# 90 A:

I BELIEVE HE ARRIVED AT 4:25 OR 4:30 IN THE MORNING.

# 91 Q:

AND DETECTIVE LANGE?

# 92 A:

I'M SORRY. DETECTIVE VANNATTER ARRIVED AT 4:05. I AM SORRY. DETECTIVE LANGE ARRIVED AT 4:25 TO 4:30.

# 93 Q:

AND WHAT TIME DID YOU LEAVE 875 SOUTH BUNDY?

# 94 A:

JUST SHORTLY BEFORE 5:00 IN THE MORNING.

# 95 Q:

AND YOU -- WHAT TIME DID YOU ARRIVE AT 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM?

# 96 A:

APPROXIMATELY 5:05 TO 5:10.

# 97 Q:

NOW, WHEN THE FOUR OF YOU LEFT 875 SOUTH BUNDY, DID YOU TELL ANYONE ABOUT IT OR DID YOU JUST PACK UP AND GO?

# 98 A:

NO. I HAD WALKED OVER TO LIEUTENANT SPANGLER AND JOHN ROGERS AND INFORMED THEM OF WHERE WE WERE GOING AND WHAT WE WERE DOING AND TOLD THEM WE SHOULD BE BACK IN A VERY SHORT TIME AND I INFORMED LIEUTENANT SPANGLER OF MY INTENTIONS OF OFFERING MY SERVICES TO O.J. SIMPSON.

# 99 Q:

AND YOU SPOKE TO LIEUTENANT ROGERS AS WELL THEN?

# 100 A:

WELL, HE WAS STANDING IN THE AREA. I WASN'T SPEAKING DIRECTLY AT HIM. I WAS SPEAKING DIRECTLY AT LIEUTENANT SPANGLER.

# 101 Q:

WHEN YOU LEFT, WHO WAS IN CHARGE OF THE CRIME SCENE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?

# 102 A:

LIEUTENANT ROGERS.

# 103 Q:

DID YOU -- DID YOU HAVE ANY CONVERSATION WITH LIEUTENANT ROGERS ABOUT WHAT HE WOULD DO WITH THE CRIME SCENE IN YOUR ABSENCE?

# 104 A:

NO.

# 105 Q:

AND DID YOU SEE DETECTIVE FUHRMAN GO OVER TO ASK FOR DIRECTIONS FROM ANOTHER OFFICER THERE?

# 106 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. SAME QUESTION.

# 107 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 108 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU SEE DETECTIVE FUHRMAN GO OVER TO OFFICER RISKE AT SOME POINT?

# 109 A:

YES.

# 110 Q:

AND WAS THAT JUST BEFORE YOU LEFT FOR 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM?

# 111 A:

A FEW MINUTES BEFORE, YES.

# 112 Q:

AFTER DETECTIVE FUHRMAN SPOKE TO OFFICER RISKE, DID HE COME BACK TO YOU?

# 113 A:

YES.

# 114 Q:

DID HE GIVE YOU SOME INFORMATION?

# 115 A:

YES.

# 116 Q:

AND DID THAT CONCERN THE ROUTE YOU WOULD TAKE TO 360 NORTH ROCKINGHAM?

# 117 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECTION. HEARSAY.

# 118 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 119 MR. COCHRAN:

THANK YOU.

# 120 MS. CLARK:

CAN WE APPROACH?

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Detective Phillips

HE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE VERY INSENSITIVE IF WE KNEW ABOUT IT AND DID NOT NOTIFY HIM IN PERSON PRIOR TO THE NEWS MEDIA NOTIFYING HIM.

Explains the unusual direct order from Commander Bushey — establishing that the trip to Rockingham was a welfare notification, not a suspect investigation.

Detective Phillips

NO. WE NEVER CONSIDERED MR. SIMPSON TO BE A SUSPECT AT THAT TIME.

Key defense-friendly admission on direct — the prosecution's own witness confirms Simpson was not treated as a suspect when they drove to Rockingham.

Detective Phillips

I DID NOT WANT MR. SIMPSON GOING BACK TO SEE THE VERY BLOODY CRIME SCENE. I HAD NO IDEA AT THAT TIME THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MR. SIMPSON AND NICOLE BROWN.

Phillips frames his motive as compassion, while also revealing the detectives had incomplete knowledge of the Simpson-Brown relationship at this stage.

Lance A. Ito

I HAVEN'T TRIED. SUSTAINED.

Ito preemptively sustains Clark's next question before she even asks it, prompting Clark to protest 'I haven't tried' — one of the more comedic moments in the proceeding.

Evidence (1)

Informal

Jeep at the rear of the Bundy residence, run for registration to find Rockingham address

discussed

Notable Exchanges (2)

Marcia Clark•Lance A. Ito•Johnnie Cochran

Clark attempts multiple times to establish that Fuhrman got directions from Officer Riske before the Rockingham drive. Each attempt is blocked as hearsay — at one point Ito sustains before Clark even frames the question, prompting her to say 'I haven't tried.' Clark finally asks to approach.

frustrated/strategic

Johnnie Cochran•Lance A. Ito

After a sustained hearsay ruling, Cochran says 'Thank you' and Ito replies 'You are welcome' — a brief moment of courtroom cordiality amid the sustained objection war.

light

Light Moments (2)

Lance A. Ito

Ito sustains an objection preemptively — before Clark finishes or even begins framing a new question. Clark protests 'I HAVEN'T TRIED.' Ito: 'SUSTAINED.'

Lance A. Ito / Johnnie Cochran

After yet another sustained hearsay objection, Cochran says 'Thank you' and Ito responds 'You are welcome.'

Objections

8 objections (6 sustained, 2 overruled)

Proceeding 4874 • 120 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103