Direct examination of Ronald Phillips (part 4)

📄 Direct examination of Ronald Phillips (part 4) — Wednesday, February 15, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\FEB\15\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-RONALD-P.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 19 of 167

◀ Sidebar: blood drop characterization Sidebar: VIP treatment procedures ▶

Witness: Det. Ronald Phillips
Examiner: Marcia Clark
Called by: Prosecution • Date: Wednesday, February 15, 1995 • Utterances: 342

Detective Phillips continues his direct examination, describing the crime scene walkthrough at 875 South Bundy with Officers Riske and Fuhrman, the handover of the case to Robbery-Homicide Division per Chief Frankle's order, and his subsequent walkthroughs of the same route with Detectives Vannatter and then Lange. He explains why he stopped investigating once the case was reassigned and why he was ordered not to call the Coroner until Robbery-Homicide arrived. The session ends with Clark pivoting toward the notification of O.J. Simpson and an objection over the phrase 'VIP treatment.'

# 1 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD IN OPEN COURT:)

# 2 THE COURT:

ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. COUNSEL, YOU MAY PROCEED.

# 3 MS. CLARK:

OBJECTION IS OVERRULED, YOUR HONOR?

# 4 THE COURT:

YES, IT IS. PROCEED. SOMETIMES THEY'RE SUSTAINED.

# 5 MS. CLARK:

SOMETIMES THEY'RE OVERRULED.

# 6 THE COURT:

SOMETIMES THEY'RE OVERRULED.

# 7 MR. FAIRTLOUGH:

P-48A.

# 8 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: NOW, ARE YOU ABLE TO SEE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH ALL OF THE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS YOU WERE DESCRIBING?

# 9 A:

I DON'T SEE ALL OF THEM, NO.

# 10 Q:

HOW MANY OF THE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS THAT YOU DESCRIBED ARE YOU ABLE TO SEE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH?

# 11 A:

I CAN ONLY SEE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH MAYBE ONE.

# 12 Q:

THE ONE THAT WE EARLIER CIRCLED AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PHOTOGRAPH?

# 13 A:

THAT'S RIGHT.

# 14 Q:

AS YOU WALKED DOWN THE WALKWAY, WERE YOU USING YOUR FLASHLIGHT, SIR?

# 15 A:

YES.

# 16 Q:

OFFICER RISKE WAS LEADING?

# 17 A:

YES.

# 18 Q:

AND WAS HE POINTING THESE THINGS OUT TO YOU?

# 19 A:

YES.

# 20 Q:

WHERE WAS DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

# 21 A:

I BELIEVE DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WAS FOLLOWING ME. I THINK IT WAS RISKE, THEN MYSELF AND THEN OFFICE FUHRMAN.

# 22 Q:

BUT IT WAS ALL THREE OF YOU?

# 23 A:

YES. WE WERE WALKING IN A SINGLE FILE.

# 24 Q:

DID YOU AVOID THE BLOOD DROPS AND THE SHOEPRINTS?

# 25 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECTION TO THE FORM OF THE QUESTION. LEADING AND SUGGESTIVE.

# 26 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 27 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: DID YOU STEP IN THE BLOOD DROPS AND THE SHOEPRINTS?

# 28 A:

NO.

# 29 Q:

AND DID YOU EXIT THROUGH THE REAR GATE?

# 30 A:

YES, I DID.

# 31 Q:

WHAT HAPPENED NEXT? OH, LET ME BACK UP, SIR. LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING. DID THOSE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS CONTINUE ALL THE WAY DOWN THE WALKWAY TO THE REAR GATE?

# 32 A:

NO, THEY DID NOT.

# 33 Q:

DID THEY STOP AT SOME POINT?

# 34 MR. COCHRAN:

THAT'S BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED BY THIS WITNESS AND LAST WITNESS.

# 35 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. BRIEFLY.

# 36 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

I CAN'T RECALL THE EXACT LOCATION WHERE THEY FADED OUT, BUT IT WAS NOT QUITE HALFWAY I DON'T BELIEVE BETWEEN THE FRONT AND THE BACK. I DON'T RECALL WHERE THE LAST ONE THAT I SAW WAS.

# 37 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: BY THE TIME YOU EXITED THROUGH THE REAR GATE, WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE ANY MORE BLOODY SHOEPRINTS?

# 38 A:

NO.

# 39 Q:

DID YOU SEE ANY IN THE REAR DRIVEWAY?

# 40 A:

NO.

# 41 Q:

WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER YOU EXITED THROUGH THE REAR GATE?

# 42 A:

WE REENTERED THE -- I REENTERED -- WE REENTERED THE HOUSE AND OFFICER RISKE WALKED US THROUGH THE RESIDENCE TO GIVE US A BASIC LAYOUT OF THE RESIDENCE.

# 43 Q:

NOW, AT THAT POINT, DID YOU GO THROUGH ALL OF THE ROOMS?

# 44 A:

YES.

# 45 Q:

DID YOU GO BACK THROUGH THE KITCHEN AREA?

# 46 A:

YES.

# 47 Q:

TELL US WHAT YOU SAW.

# 48 A:

WENT BACK THROUGH THE KITCHEN AREA. I DIDN'T OBSERVE ANYTHING AT THAT TIME. THEN WE WENT INTO THE LIVING ROOM AREA AND I NOTICED A -- SOME CANDLES ON A TABLE.

# 49 Q:

WERE THEY LIT?

# 50 A:

YES.

# 51 Q:

WERE THESE BOOK -- DO YOU REMEMBER HOW BIG THESE CANDLES WERE?

# 52 A:

I DON'T KNOW HOW BIG THEY WERE, NO.

# 53 Q:

BUT THEY WERE STILL BURNING?

# 54 A:

YES.

# 55 Q:

AND WHERE IS THE LIVING ROOM IN RELATION TO THE KITCHEN?

# 56 A:

THE LIVING ROOM IS IN THE FRONT PORTION OF THE HOUSE, THE KITCHEN WOULD BE MORE LESS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE HOUSE AND I THINK THERE'S A DINING AREA OF SOME TYPE BETWEEN THE KITCHEN AND THE LIVING ROOM.

# 57 Q:

AND AFTER YOU MADE -- AFTER YOU LOOKED IN THE LIVING ROOM AND THE KITCHEN, SIR, DID YOU SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF RANSACKING?

# 58 A:

NO, I DIDN'T.

# 59 Q:

DID YOU SEE ANY BLOOD?

# 60 A:

NO, I DIDN'T.

# 61 Q:

DID YOU SEE ANY LEAVES TRACKED INSIDE THE HOUSE?

# 62 A:

NO.

# 63 Q:

WERE THERE LEAVES OUTSIDE THE HOUSE AROUND THE BODIES OF THE VICTIMS?

# 64 A:

YES.

# 65 Q:

DID YOU SEE -- STRIKE THAT. WHERE DID YOU GO NEXT?

# 66 A:

I THEN WENT UPSTAIRS INTO THE MASTER BEDROOM WHERE I OBSERVED THE TELEVISION ON AND THE BED UNMADE AND THEN WENT INTO A MASTER BEDROOM WHERE I WAS -- NOTICED A COUPLE OF CANDLES ALSO ON A BENCH TYPE AREA BEHIND THE BATHTUB, I BELIEVE IT WAS WEST OF THE BATHTUB, THEN EXITED THAT MASTER BATHROOM AND WALKED DOWN ANOTHER HALLWAY INTO TWO ROOMS THAT I WAS TOLD WERE THE ROOMS OF THE CHILDREN.

# 67 Q:

AND IN THOSE LOCATIONS, SIR, DID YOU SEE ANY SIGNS OF A STRUGGLE OR FIGHT?

# 68 A:

NO.

# 69 Q:

DID YOU SEE DRAWERS PULLED OPEN?

# 70 A:

NO.

# 71 Q:

DID YOU SEE ANY BLOOD?

# 72 A:

NO.

# 73 Q:

DID YOU SEE ANY ITEMS OF JEWELRY OR PROPERTY THROWN ON THE GROUND?

# 74 A:

NO.

# 75 Q:

AND WHAT DID YOU DO NEXT?

# 76 A:

THEN EXITED THE RESIDENCE.

# 77 Q:

AND WHO WAS WITH YOU AT THIS TIME?

# 78 A:

OFFICER RISKE AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN AND MYSELF.

# 79 Q:

OKAY. AND HOW DID YOU EXIT?

# 80 A:

THROUGH THE GARAGE DOOR, OUT THE GARAGE, BACK INTO THE ALLEY.

# 81 Q:

AND WHO DID YOU SEE WHEN YOU GOT OUT OF THE HOUSE?

# 82 A:

WHEN I EXITED THE RESIDENCE AND WALKED TO THE ALLEY, I WAS MET BY MY COMMANDING OFFICER, LIEUTENANT FRANK SPANGLER.

# 83 Q:

WAS THERE ANYBODY WITH HIM?

# 84 A:

THERE WAS A COUPLE POLICEMEN STANDING THERE WITH HIM. I THINK A SHORT TIME AFTER THAT, CAPTAIN CONNIE DIAL SHOWED UP.

# 85 Q:

OKAY. WAS SERGEANT ROSSI BACK THERE AS WELL?

# 86 A:

YES, HE WAS.

# 87 Q:

NOW, LIEUTENANT SPANGLER, IS HE YOUR DIRECT BOSS?

# 88 A:

YES, HE IS.

# 89 Q:

AND DID YOU RECEIVE SOME INFORMATION AT THAT TIME, SIR, CONCERNING WHO WOULD BE HANDLING THIS CASE?

# 90 A:

YES, I DID.

# 91 Q:

WHO DID YOU GET THAT FROM?

# 92 A:

SERGEANT ROSSI.

# 93 Q:

AND WHAT DID YOU LEARN?

# 94 A:

I LEARNED THAT HE HAD -- I LEARNED THAT I WAS SUPPOSED TO TURN THIS CASE OVER TO ROBBERY-HOMICIDE AS PER CHIEF FRANKLE.

# 95 Q:

WHO IS CHIEF FRANKLE?

# 96 A:

HE IS THE CHIEF OF WEST BUREAU. HE IS THE ONE STEP ABOVE COMMANDER BUSHEY.

# 97 Q:

AND SO IT WAS CHIEF FRANKLE'S ORDER THAT THE CASE BE HANDED OVER?

# 98 MR. COCHRAN:

THIS HAS BEEN ASKED AND ANSWERED.

# 99 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 100 MS. CLARK:

I AM SORRY.

# 101 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED.

# 102 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AFTER YOU RECEIVED THAT INFORMATION, WHAT DID YOU DO?

# 103 A:

I THEN MADE A TELEPHONE CALL ON MY CELLULAR PHONE TO DETECTIVE HEADQUARTERS DIVISION, WHICH IS THE CENTRAL DETECTIVE FACILITY FOR THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT DURING MORNING WATCH, AND ASKED THAT THEY PUT ME IN TOUCH WITH CAPTAIN GARTLAND, WHO IS THE COMMANDER OFFICER OF ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION.

# 104 Q:

AND DID YOU SPEAK TO CAPTAIN GARTLAND?

# 105 A:

YES, I DID.

# 106 Q:

AND HOW IS IT THAT YOU WERE MAKING THESE PHONE CALLS, SIR?

# 107 A:

ON A CELLULAR TELEPHONE.

# 108 Q:

YOU HAD IT WITH YOU?

# 109 A:

YES.

# 110 Q:

AND AFTER SPEAKING TO CAPTAIN GARTLAND, WHAT DID YOU DO?

# 111 A:

I THEN MADE -- EITHER MADE OR RECEIVED ANOTHER PHONE CALL FROM A LIEUTENANT JOHN ROGERS WHO ALSO WORKED ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION AND WAS INFORMED AT THAT TIME -- ACTUALLY CAPTAIN --

# 112 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECTION TO THE FORM. HEARSAY.

# 113 THE COURT:

SUSTAINED. WHAT DID YOU DO, NOT WHAT YOU WERE TOLD. NEXT QUESTION.

# 114 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: YOU WERE INFORMED BY WHO, SIR? YOU WERE TOLD SOMETHING BY WHO?

# 115 A:

LIEUTENANT ROGERS, JOHN ROGERS.

# 116 Q:

AND BASED ON WHAT HE TOLD YOU, WHAT DID YOU DO?

# 117 A:

WAITED FOR ANOTHER PHONE CALL.

# 118 Q:

DID YOU GET ANOTHER PHONE CALL?

# 119 A:

YES.

# 120 Q:

FROM?

# 121 A:

GOT A CALL BACK FROM JOHN ROGERS, LIEUTENANT ROGERS.

# 122 Q:

AND DID YOU HAVE ANOTHER CONVERSATION WITH HIM?

# 123 A:

YES.

# 124 Q:

WHO IS LIEUTENANT ROGERS, SIR?

# 125 A:

LIEUTENANT ROGERS IS ONE OF THE LIEUTENANTS THAT WORKS OUT OF ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION THAT'S IN CHARGE OF THE HOMICIDE SPECIAL OR HOMICIDE MAJOR UNIT.

# 126 Q:

AND THE HOMICIDE MAJOR OR HOMICIDE SPECIAL UNIT IS WHAT?

# 127 A:

IT'S TWO ENTITIES OUT OF ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION THAT HANDLE SPECIALIZED HOMICIDE CASES.

# 128 Q:

SO THOSE ARE DETECTIVES THAT HANDLE SPECIALIZED HOMICIDE CASES?

# 129 A:

YES.

# 130 Q:

AND IS LIEUTENANT ROGERS -- HE WAS THEIR BOSS?

# 131 A:

HE WAS THEIR SUPERVISOR, YES.

# 132 Q:

SUPERVISOR? ALL RIGHT. AND LIEUTENANT -- DID YOU SAY LIEUTENANT ROGERS CALLED YOU BACK?

# 133 A:

YES.

# 134 Q:

AND DID YOU GIVE HIM SOME INFORMATION?

# 135 A:

YES.

# 136 Q:

WHAT WAS THAT?

# 137 A:

I INFORMED HIM OF THE INFORMATION I HAD RECEIVED ABOUT THE DOUBLE HOMICIDES AND WHO MAY BE INVOLVED IN THE DOUBLE HOMICIDE AS FAR AS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND THAT SHE WAS THE EX-WIFE OR CURRENT WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON AND THAT CAPTAIN GARTLAND REQUESTED THAT HIS UNIT TAKE IT OVER.

KEY QUOTE

# 138 Q:

AND WHAT WERE YOU -- WERE YOU GIVEN SOME INSTRUCTION AT THAT TIME?

# 139 A:

YES.

# 140 Q:

AND WHAT WAS THAT?

# 141 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECTION. HEARSAY.

# 142 MS. CLARK:

THIS IS TO EXPLAIN --

# 143 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 144 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

I WAS INFORMED AT THAT TIME THAT THAT INVESTIGATION WAS NO LONGER MY RESPONSIBILITY, THAT IT WAS NOW GOING TO BE HANDLED AND INVESTIGATED BY ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION AND WE WERE TO DO NO MORE FURTHER ACTION AT THAT SCENE.

# 145 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND AFTER HAVING RECEIVED THAT INFORMATION, SIR, WHAT DID YOU DO?

# 146 A:

I WALKED BACK INTO THE RESIDENCE AND INFORMED DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, AND I BELIEVE THERE WAS A POLICE OFFICER WITH HIM, THAT THE CASE NOW BELONGED TO ROBBERY-HOMICIDE, IT WAS NO LONGER OUR INVESTIGATIVE RESPONSIBILITY AND THAT WE WERE GOING TO LEAVE THE RESIDENCE AND GO BACK OUT TO DOROTHY AND BUNDY AND AWAIT THE ARRIVAL OF THE ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DETECTIVES.

# 147 Q:

SO YOU NOTIFIED THE UNIFORMED OFFICER AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WHO WERE INSIDE THE HOUSE?

# 148 A:

YES.

# 149 Q:

AND DID THEY THEN COME OUT WITH YOU?

# 150 A:

YES.

# 151 Q:

AND WHERE DID YOU GO?

# 152 A:

WALKED BACK SOUTHBOUND IN THE ALLEY TO DOROTHY AND THEN BACK OUT TO DOROTHY AND BUNDY WHERE THE POLICE CARS WERE PARKED AND THE OTHER SUPERVISORS WERE STANDING AROUND.

# 153 Q:

SO AT THAT POINT, WAS THERE ANYONE LEFT IN THE SCENE, THE CRIME SCENE?

# 154 A:

NOT IN THE CRIME SCENE ITSELF, NO. THE PERIMETER WAS STILL ESTABLISHED.

# 155 Q:

AND BY THE PERIMETER, YOU MEAN?

# 156 A:

WE HAD OFFICERS NORTH AND SOUTH OF BUNDY AND WE HAD THEM ON NORTH AND SOUTH OF THE ALLEY PROTECTING THE CRIME SCENE, THAT NO ONE WOULD ENTER THAT LOCATION OTHER THAN POLICE OFFICERS.

# 157 Q:

SO WHY DID YOU DO THAT?

# 158 A:

TO -- THE INTEGRITY OF THE CRIME SCENE. IT WAS NO LONGER OUR RESPONSIBILITY. IT WAS BEST FOR US TO NOW LEAVE THE CRIME SCENE, GO BACK OUT AND WAIT FOR THEIR ARRIVAL AND SEE IF THEY HAD ANY INSTRUCTIONS ON WHAT THEY WANTED US TO DO SINCE IT WAS NOW THEIR CASE.

# 159 Q:

SO WHAT WERE YOUR DUTIES AT THAT POINT WITH RESPECT TO THE CRIME SCENE AT 875 SOUTH BUNDY?

# 160 A:

MY RESPONSIBILITIES AT THAT TIME CEASED AS ALL OF WEST L.A. DETECTIVES CEASED. IT WAS NO LONGER OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT THAT CRIME SCENE.

KEY QUOTE

# 161 Q:

NOTHING? YOU COULD JUST WALK AWAY AND LEAVE IT?

# 162 A:

WELL, WE WEREN'T GOING TO WALK AWAY AND LEAVE IT. WE WERE GOING TO WAIT FOR THE ARRIVAL OF THE ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DETECTIVES TO GIVE THEM THE INFORMATION THAT WE HAD, GIVE THEM THE NOTES THAT MARK FUHRMAN HAD TAKEN AND HAVE A SHORT DISCUSSION WITH THEM ABOUT WHAT WE HAD SEEN, WHAT WE HAD DONE, SO THEY COULD HAVE THEIR -- YOU KNOW, BE BROUGHT UP-TO-DATE AND -- BUT AS FAR AS ACTUALLY INVESTIGATING ANYTHING AT THE CRIME SCENE, THAT WAS FINISHED.

# 163 Q:

OKAY. DID YOU HAVE ANY DUTY TO KEEP IT SECURE WHILE YOU WERE WAITING FOR THEM?

# 164 A:

IT WAS ALWAYS SECURE.

# 165 Q:

WHILE YOU WERE WAITING FOR THEM?

# 166 A:

YES.

# 167 Q:

DID YOU -- CAN YOU TELL US, SIR, WHY IT IS THAT YOU STOPPED DOING ANY WORK OR ANY INVESTIGATING AT THAT SCENE WHILE YOU WERE WAITING FOR THE ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DETECTIVES TO APPEAR?

# 168 MR. COCHRAN:

ASKED AND ANSWERED.

# 169 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 170 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

WELL, BECAUSE OF THE INTEGRITY OF THE CRIME SCENE. WHEN WE WALKED THROUGH THE CRIME SCENE AND WE WERE TAKING NOTES AND DOING THINGS, IT WAS OUR INVESTIGATION. WE WERE PREPARING TO TAKE PART. WE WERE PREPARING TO DO THINGS. AT THE TIME IT WAS TAKEN AWAY FROM ME, THAT WAS ALL CEASED BECAUSE IT WAS NOW GOING TO BE UNDER THE DIRECTION OF ANOTHER HOMICIDE UNIT WHO MAY WORK A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY THAN I DO OR A LITTLE DIFFERENTLY THAN THE DETECTIVE WHO WAS THERE DOING IT. THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO START AT THE BEGINNING OF THEIR CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION AND TAKE IT FROM THERE.

# 171 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: NOW, IS THAT AN ESTABLISHED PROCEDURE OR POLICY? IS THAT A ROUTINE THING; WHEN A NEW SET OF DETECTIVES IS ASSIGNED TO A SCENE, THAT THE FIRST DETECTIVES ON THE SCENE STOP ALL WORK?

# 172 A:

IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE TIMING. IF WE HAD ALREADY BEEN INTO IT FOR AN HOUR OR TWO, THEN NO, IT WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED THAT WAY. BUT SINCE WE HAD DONE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OTHER THAN JUST A CURSORY WALK THROUGH THE CRIME SCENE, WE -- I HAD ONLY BEEN THERE APPROXIMATELY 30 MINUTES AND HAD DONE VIRTUALLY NOTHING AS FAR AS THAT CRIME SCENE WAS CONCERNED. THEN YES, IT WAS OUR RESPONSIBILITY -- MY RESPONSIBILITY TO PULL MY PEOPLE OUT SO ROBBERY-HOMICIDE WOULD HAVE AS CLEAN AND UNTOUCHED CRIME SCENE AS POSSIBLE TO BEGIN THEIR INVESTIGATION.

# 173 Q:

NOW, WHAT ABOUT THIS REASSIGNMENT TO ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION? THIS WAS A CASE IN WEST L.A., WASN'T IT?

# 174 A:

YES, IT WAS.

# 175 Q:

AND IT WAS REASSIGNED TO ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION?

# 176 A:

YES, IT WAS.

# 177 Q:

HAS THAT EVER HAPPENED BEFORE?

# 178 MR. COCHRAN:

YOUR HONOR, IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL.

# 179 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 180 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

YES, IT HAS.

# 181 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND WHY ON PREVIOUS OCCASIONS HAS IT HAPPENED, IF YOU KNOW?

# 182 MR. COCHRAN:

IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL, PREVIOUS OCCASION.

# 183 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 184 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

EACH CASE HAS ITS OWN MERIT. IT WOULD -- SOME OF THE CASES ARE TAKEN AWAY FROM US AFTER THE PRELIMINARY CRIME SCENE IS DONE. SOME OF THEM ARE TAKEN AWAY FROM US TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE WEEKS AFTER THE CRIME OCCURS. SOME ARE TAKEN AWAY IMMEDIATELY.

# 185 THE COURT:

I DON'T THINK THE QUESTION WAS WHEN. I THINK THE QUESTION WAS WHY, WASN'T IT?

# 186 MS. CLARK:

YES, IT WAS WHY. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

# 187 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

DIFFERENT CRIME SCENES ARE TAKEN AWAY FROM US FOR DIFFERENT REASONS.

# 188 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: WHAT WAS -- IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WHAT WAS THE REASON?

# 189 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. CALLS FOR SPECULATION.

# 190 THE COURT:

HAVEN'T WE TALKED ABOUT THIS ALREADY?

# 191 MS. CLARK:

HAVE WE?

# 192 MR. COCHRAN:

HAVEN'T WE COVERED THIS ALREADY?

# 193 THE COURT:

I THOUGHT SO.

# 194 MS. CLARK:

HAVE WE?

# 195 THE COURT:

BETTER RESOURCES.

# 196 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: THAT WAS ONE -- WAS THAT THE REASON?

# 197 A:

YES.

# 198 Q:

I WON'T ASK AGAIN. OKAY. AND HAS THAT BEEN A REASON IN PREVIOUS CASES AS WELL, WHY CASES HAVE BEEN REASSIGNED TO ROBBERY-HOMICIDE?

# 199 MR. COCHRAN:

IRRELEVANT AND IMMATERIAL.

# 200 THE COURT:

IT'S IRRELEVANT TO THIS CASE.

# 201 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: HOW DID YOU FEEL ABOUT LOSING THIS CASE TO ANOTHER SET OF DETECTIVES, SIR?

# 202 A:

DIDN'T BOTHER ME AT ALL. I MEAN IT WAS -- I WAS DISAPPOINTED IN THE FACT THAT WE HAD ALL GOTTEN UP AFTER AN HOUR AND A HALF SLEEP, WE HAD GONE OUT THERE AND WE HAD AN INVESTIGATION THAT WE WERE GOING TO TAKE PART IN, BUT IT CERTAINLY AT THE TIME APPEARED TO ME TO BE THE CORRECT CALL. I HAD NO PROBLEM WITH IT; IN FACT, AGREED WITH IT.

# 203 Q:

ALL RIGHT. SO THERE YOU WERE ON THE SCENE. YOU SAY YOU GOT THERE ABOUT 2:10 IN THE MORNING. WHEN YOU FIRST ARRIVED AT THE SCENE, DID YOU CALL THE CORONER?

# 204 A:

NO, I DID NOT.

# 205 Q:

WHY NOT?

# 206 A:

BECAUSE THAT'S NOT WHAT I DO AND THAT'S NOT GENERALLY WHAT IS DONE WHEN YOU FIRST ARRIVE AT THE CRIME SCENE. YOU FIRST ARRIVE AT THE CRIME SCENE AND YOU TALK --

# 207 MR. COCHRAN:

ASKED AND ANSWERED, DID HE CALL THE CORONER.

# 208 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

DID NOT.

# 209 MS. CLARK:

I SAID WHY NOT.

# 210 THE COURT:

WHY NOT. YOU CAN EXPLAIN THE ANSWER. OVERRULED.

# 211 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

YOU HAVE TO ORIGINALLY FIND OUT WHAT YOU HAVE AND WHETHER SUSPECT'S IN CUSTODY, NOT IN CUSTODY, FIND OUT JUST ABOUT THE CRIME SCENE ITSELF, FIND OUT A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE DECEASED, FIND OUT ABOUT YOUR CRIME SCENE, WALK THROUGH YOUR CRIME SCENE, SEE WHAT KIND OF EVIDENCE YOU HAVE. THERE'S A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS THAT YOU HAVE TO GET IN YOUR OWN MIND BEFORE YOU EVEN START TO FIGURE OUT WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO.

# 212 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND WHY IS THAT? WHY DO YOU NEED TO KNOW MORE ABOUT YOUR CRIME SCENE AND EXAMINE EVERYTHING BEFORE YOU HAVE THE CORONER IN THERE?

# 213 A:

WELL, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PLAN OF ACTION, NUMBER ONE, WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO. AND ONCE THE CORONER GETS THERE, IF YOU'RE NOT READY FOR THE CORONER, THE CORONER'S GOING TO STAND AROUND DOING NOTHING UNTIL YOU ARE READY FOR HIM BECAUSE YOU'RE CERTAINLY NOT GOING TO ALLOW THE CORONER INTO A CRIME SCENE UNTIL YOU ARE THROUGH MEASURING EVERY ITEM, PHOTOGRAPHING EVERY ITEM, FINGERPRINTING EVERY ITEM, EXAMINING EVERYTHING YOU HAVE AT YOUR CRIME SCENE BEFORE YOU EVER ALLOW THE CORONER IN THERE, AND THAT COULD TAKE HOURS BEFORE YOU EVER ALLOW -- ARE EVER ABLE TO DO THAT.

# 214 Q:

SO IF THE CORONER GETS IN THERE, COULD EVIDENCE BE MOVED OR LOST BEFORE IT GETS A CHANCE TO BE DOCUMENTED?

# 215 A:

WELL, IT COULD BE. WE WOULD NEVER LET THE CORONER IN UNTIL WE WERE THROUGH WITH OUR INITIAL CRIME SCENE, UNTIL WE WERE THROUGH WITH OUR CRIME SCENE.

# 216 Q:

FOR THAT REASON.

# 217 A:

FOR THAT EXACT REASON.

# 218 Q:

NOW, WHOSE DUTY IS IT TO NOTIFY THE CORONER TO ARRIVE AT THE SCENE?

# 219 A:

IN A --

# 220 Q:

IN GENERAL.

# 221 A:

IN GENERAL, AT A HOMICIDE SCENE, IT'S THE HOMICIDE INVESTIGATOR WHO IS ASSIGNED TO THAT CRIME SCENE WOULD BE THE ONE THAT NOTIFIES THE CORONER.

# 222 Q:

NOW, ABOUT WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT YOU RECEIVED FINAL WORD THAT THE CASE WAS GOING TO BE REASSIGNED TO ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DIVISION?

# 223 A:

I BELIEVE IT WAS 2:39 IN THE MORNING OF JUNE 13TH.

# 224 Q:

AND AT SOME POINT, DID YOU ATTEMPT OR ASK PERMISSION TO MAKE NOTIFICATION TO THE CORONER?

# 225 A:

YES, I DID.

# 226 Q:

AT WHAT TIME?

# 227 A:

IT WAS ABOUT 10 MINUTES OR FIVE MINUTES TO 3:00 THAT MORNING, I MADE A STATEMENT THAT I WAS GOING TO NOTIFY THE CORONER.

# 228 Q:

AND WHO DID YOU MAKE THAT STATEMENT TO, SIR?

# 229 A:

LIEUTENANT SPANGLER, MY COMMANDING OFFICER.

# 230 Q:

AND WHAT DID -- WHAT WAS HIS RESPONSE TO THAT?

# 231 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECTION. HEARSAY.

# 232 THE COURT:

OVERRULED.

# 233 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

TOLD ME NOT TO.

# 234 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: AND WHY NOT?

# 235 THE COURT:

THAT'S HEARSAY.

# 236 MR. COCHRAN:

HEARSAY.

# 237 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: HE GAVE YOU -- BUT I TAKE IT HE GAVE YOU A REASON?

# 238 A:

YES, HE DID. HE GAVE ME AN ORDER.

# 239 Q:

AND WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER YOU RECEIVED THAT ORDER, SIR?

# 240 A:

I DID NOT CALL THE CORONER.

# 241 Q:

AND WHAT DID YOU DO?

# 242 A:

WENT OUT TO BUNDY AND DOROTHY AND WAITED FOR THE ARRIVAL OF THE ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DETECTIVES.

# 243 Q:

WHO WERE THE ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DETECTIVES ASSIGNED TO THE CASE?

# 244 A:

PHIL VANNATTER AND TOM LANGE.

# 245 Q:

PRIOR TO THAT NIGHT, SIR, HAD YOU EVER MET THEM BEFORE?

# 246 A:

NEVER MET EITHER ONE OF THOSE DETECTIVES BEFORE.

# 247 Q:

SO THAT WAS THE FIRST TIME YOU EVER SAW THEM?

# 248 A:

THAT'S CORRECT.

# 249 Q:

WHO GOT THERE FIRST?

# 250 A:

PHIL VANNATTER.

# 251 Q:

AND WHEN HE GOT THERE, DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?

# 252 A:

YES, I DID.

# 253 Q:

IN GENERAL TERMS, DID YOU TELL HIM WHAT YOU HAD SEEN AT THE CRIME SCENE?

# 254 A:

YES.

# 255 Q:

AND WHAT YOU HAD LEARNED FROM THE FIRST OFFICER ON THE SCENE?

# 256 A:

YES.

# 257 Q:

AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?

# 258 A:

I TOOK PHIL VANNATTER UP TO THE CRIME SCENE, THE SAME ROUTE THAT I HAD BEEN TAKEN UP TO PRIOR AND SHOWED HIM THE BODIES.

# 259 Q:

NOW, WHEN YOU HAD THE CONVERSATION WITH LIEUTENANT SPANGLER, WAS DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WITH YOU?

# 260 A:

IN REGARDS TO THE CORONER'S OFFICE?

# 261 Q:

RIGHT.

# 262 A:

NO. I BELIEVE HE WAS INSIDE THE HOUSE WHEN THOSE -- WHEN THAT WAS GOING ON.

# 263 Q:

WITH THE UNIFORMED OFFICER?

# 264 A:

YES.

# 265 Q:

AND THEN WHEN YOU WERE WAITING FOR THE ROBBERY-HOMICIDE DETECTIVES TO SHOW UP, WAS HE WITH YOU THEN?

# 266 A:

YES, HE WAS.

# 267 Q:

OUT IN THE INTERSECTION?

# 268 A:

YES.

# 269 Q:

AND WHEN PHIL VANNATTER APPEARED, WAS DETECTIVE FUHRMAN WITH YOU THERE IN THE INTERSECTION?

# 270 A:

YES.

# 271 Q:

AND DID YOU TAKE -- WHEN YOU TOOK DETECTIVE VANNATTER UP TO THE BUNDY CRIME SCENE, DID DETECTIVE FUHRMAN GO WITH YOU?

# 272 A:

YES, HE DID.

# 273 Q:

CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US THE PATH THAT YOU TOOK WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN?

# 274 MR. COCHRAN:

HE'S DESCRIBED THAT, YOUR HONOR.

# 275 THE COURT:

OVERRULED. NO, WE'RE WITH VANNATTER NOW.

# 276 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

THE EXACT SAME ROUTE THAT I HAD TAKEN WITH OFFICER RISKE BEFORE.

# 277 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: MEANING?

# 278 A:

ACROSS THE SIDEWALK, INTO THE PLANTED AREA WHERE THE BUSHES AND LEAVES AND GRASS IS AND UP TO THAT CORNER SPOT AND VIEWED THE BODIES.

# 279 Q:

DID YOU POINT THINGS OUT TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

# 280 A:

YES, I DID.

# 281 Q:

AND JUST TO SAVE US SOME TIME, YOU POINTED OUT THE SAME EVIDENCE TO HIM THAT YOU DESCRIBED SEEING TO US?

# 282 A:

YES.

# 283 Q:

AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?

# 284 A:

I EXITED THAT LOCATION THE SAME WAY AND THEN WALKED VANNATTER AROUND TO THE REAR OF 875 SOUTH BUNDY.

# 285 Q:

AND AT THE REAR OF THE LOCATION, WHAT DID YOU DO THERE?

# 286 A:

SHOWED HIM THE JEEP, THE CHANGE AND THE BLOOD DROP AND THEN ENTERED INTO THE GARAGE, WENT INTO THE RESIDENCE, WALKED OUT THE FRONT DOOR, STOOD IN THE EXACT SAME LOCATION I HAD STOOD BEFORE AND SHOWED HIM THE CRIME SCENE FROM UP ABOVE THE THREE STEPS.

# 287 Q:

AND DID YOU POINT OUT THE EVIDENCE FROM THAT VANTAGE POINT AS WELL?

# 288 A:

YES, I DID.

# 289 Q:

THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?

# 290 A:

THEN WALKED HIM WESTBOUND THROUGH THE NORTH WALKWAY TO THE REAR OF THE RESIDENCE, THE SAME ROUTE THAT I HAD TAKEN PRIOR POINTING OUT THE SHOEPRINTS AND POINTING OUT THE BLOOD DROPS.

# 291 Q:

AND AGAIN, DID YOU TAKE CARE NOT TO STEP IN THOSE BLOOD DROPS AND SHOEPRINTS?

# 292 A:

YES, I DID.

# 293 Q:

AND WHEN YOU GOT TO THE REAR GATE AREA AFTER YOU FINISHED -- AFTER YOU WALKED TO THE END OF THE WALKWAY, DID YOU POINT ANYTHING OUT AT THAT LOCATION?

# 294 A:

YES. I POINTED OUT THE THREE AREAS ON THE GATE THAT HAD BEEN POINTED OUT TO ME WHERE BLOOD WAS.

# 295 Q:

OKAY. AND WERE YOU AND DETECTIVE FUHRMAN, VANNATTER ALL WALKING TOGETHER ALONG THAT WALKWAY?

# 296 A:

WE WERE WALKING IN SINGLE FILE.

# 297 Q:

DID YOU WALK OUT THE REAR GATE AT THAT POINT?

# 298 A:

YES.

# 299 Q:

WHERE DID YOU GO THEN?

# 300 A:

WENT BACK OUT TO BUNDY AND DOROTHY.

# 301 Q:

DID YOU POINT OUT THE BLOODY PAW PRINTS GOING SOUTH ON BUNDY FROM THE FRONT WALKWAY AND AROUND THE CORNER OF DOROTHY TO DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

# 302 A:

YES, I DID.

# 303 Q:

AND THEN WHAT DID YOU DO?

# 304 A:

WE STOOD IN THAT INTERSECTION AGAIN WAITING FOR HIS PARTNER TO SHOW UP, DETECTIVE TOM LANGE, WHO SHOWED UP APPROXIMATELY 25 MINUTES LATER.

# 305 Q:

AND WHERE DID HE CONTACT YOU, SIR?

# 306 A:

AT DOROTHY AND BUNDY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE INTERSECTION.

# 307 Q:

WHAT DID YOU DO WHEN DETECTIVE LANGE ARRIVED?

# 308 A:

FIRST OF ALL, HE WALKED UP TO HIS PARTNER VANNATTER AND THEY HAD A SHORT CONVERSATION AND THEN VANNATTER POINTED OUT ME TO HIM AND INTRODUCED ME TO HIM AND SAID THAT, "PHILLIPS CAN FILL YOU IN ON WHAT HAPPENED AND ALSO WALK YOU THROUGH THE CRIME SCENE."

# 309 Q:

OKAY. AND IS THAT WHAT YOU DID?

# 310 A:

YES.

# 311 Q:

DID YOU TAKE DETECTIVE LANGE UP THROUGH THE SAME STEPS THAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED WITH DETECTIVE VANNATTER?

# 312 A:

EXACT SAME STEPS.

# 313 Q:

OKAY. SO THEN YOU WENT -- WHEN YOU WENT OUT THE REAR GATE WITH DETECTIVE LANGE, DID YOU TAKE HIM BACK INTO THE RESIDENCE AGAIN?

# 314 A:

YES, I DID.

# 315 Q:

AND WHEN YOU DID THAT, WHERE IN THE HOUSE DID YOU TAKE HIM?

# 316 A:

TOOK HIM THROUGHOUT THE RESIDENCE THAT I HAD GONE THROUGH AND SHOWED HIM THE MASTER BEDROOM AND THE MASTER BATH AND THE KIDS' BEDROOMS AND THE LIVING ROOM AND POINTED OUT THE CANDLES TO HIM.

# 317 Q:

AND THEN DID YOU EXIT THE RESIDENCE WITH HIM?

# 318 A:

YES.

# 319 Q:

OKAY. NOW, THAT WALK THROUGH THAT YOU TOOK HIM ON THROUGH THE INTERIOR OF THE HOUSE, WAS THAT MEANT TO BE A DETAILED INVESTIGATION AT THAT POINT?

# 320 A:

NO. IT WAS A VERY CURSORY, QUICK WALK THROUGH JUST TO GIVE THEM AN OVERVIEW OF WHAT I HAD BEEN TOLD, WHAT I HAD SEEN MYSELF.

# 321 Q:

AND BY WHAT MEANS DID YOU EXIT THE RESIDENCE AT THAT TIME?

# 322 A:

EXITED THROUGH THE GARAGE AND OUT INTO THE ALLEY AGAIN.

# 323 Q:

WHERE DID YOU GO THEN?

# 324 A:

BACK OUT TO BUNDY AND DOROTHY.

# 325 Q:

AND WHEN YOU GOT OUT TO DOROTHY AND BUNDY, WHO DID YOU SEE?

# 326 A:

WELL, THERE WERE SEVERAL POLICE OFFICERS OUT THERE. IT WAS KIND OF A GROUPING OF INDIVIDUALS, COMMAND STAFF, SUPERVISORS, DETECTIVES. EVERYBODY WAS JUST KIND OF GATHERED AROUND RIGHT THERE.

# 327 Q:

AND WHO WAS -- WHO DID YOU SPECIFICALLY GO TO SEE AT THAT POINT?

# 328 A:

WELL, AT THAT TIME, I TOOK LANGE BACK TO HIS PARTNER VANNATTER WHO WAS STANDING THERE WITH FUHRMAN.

# 329 Q:

DID YOU HAVE A DISCUSSION AT THAT POINT?

# 330 A:

WELL, AT THAT TIME, THE FOUR OF US KIND OF BROKE AWAY FROM THAT GROUP AND WALKED OVER TO THE FRONT OF THE BUNDY LOCATION OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET AND VIEWED THE CRIME SCENE FROM OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE STREET. I THINK VANNATTER AND LANGE WERE ASKING US A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CALL ACROSS THE STREET, THE 459 CALL, AND I BELIEVE I POINTED OUT THE HOUSE WHERE THAT CALL HAD COME FROM AND THE HOUSE JUST NORTH OF THAT, GIVEN HIM ANOTHER OVERVIEW OF WHERE LOCATIONS WERE AND WHERE PEOPLE LIVED.

# 331 MS. CLARK:

DO YOU WANT TO TAKE A BREAK NOW?

# 332 THE COURT:

WE ARE GOING TO GO STRAIGHT HOW. LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, THE PLAN TODAY, SINCE WE ARE BREAKING EARLY AT 4:00 O'CLOCK, IS TO GO STRAIGHT THROUGH TO 4:00 O'CLOCK. HOWEVER, IF THERE IS A NEED TO STOP, FEEL FREE TO RAISE YOUR HAND AND LET ME KNOW. ALL RIGHT. MISS CLARK.

# 333 (DISCUSSION HELD OFF THE RECORD BETWEEN THE DEPUTY DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.)

# 334 Q:

BY MS. CLARK: ALL RIGHT. SO YOU HAD A DISCUSSION, THE FOUR OF YOU, ABOUT THE CRIME SCENE; IS THAT RIGHT?

# 335 A:

YES.

# 336 Q:

OKAY. AND THEN WHAT ELSE DID YOU TALK ABOUT?

# 337 A:

THEN I BELIEVE THAT I BROUGHT UP THE FACT THAT I HAD BEEN TOLD EARLIER IN THE EVENING THAT I WAS TO NOTIFY O.J. SIMPSON OF THE DEATH OF NICOLE BROWN AND THAT WE HAD HIS CHILDREN, AND I WAS TO DO THAT IN PERSON, AND I RECEIVED THAT ORDER FROM COMMANDER BUSHEY.

# 338 Q:

NOW, IN THE WEST L.A. DIVISION WHERE YOU WORK, SIR, ARE THERE A LOT OF WEALTHY AND FAMOUS PEOPLE THERE?

# 339 A:

YES.

# 340 Q:

HAVE YOU BEEN REQUESTED TO GIVE VIP TREATMENT BEFORE?

# 341 MR. COCHRAN:

OBJECTION. ASSUMES FACTS NOT IN EVIDENCE, VIP. CAN WE APPROACH, YOUR HONOR?

# 342 THE COURT:

SURE.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (5)

Detective Phillips

MY RESPONSIBILITIES AT THAT TIME CEASED AS ALL OF WEST L.A. DETECTIVES CEASED. IT WAS NO LONGER OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT THAT CRIME SCENE.

Establishes the jurisdictional handoff and explains why the crime scene was left with minimal West L.A. processing — a key point the defense would later exploit regarding evidence integrity.

Detective Phillips

THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO START AT THE BEGINNING OF THEIR CRIME SCENE INVESTIGATION AND TAKE IT FROM THERE.

Phillips frames the pullout as professional courtesy and standard procedure, preemptively defending against accusations of a chaotic or compromised scene.

Detective Phillips

TOLD ME NOT TO.

Lt. Spangler ordered Phillips not to call the Coroner — a sparse but striking answer revealing a command decision that delayed official documentation of the victims.

Lance A. Ito

BETTER RESOURCES.

The judge spontaneously answered Clark's own question about why the case was reassigned to Robbery-Homicide, a rare and mildly comic moment of judicial impatience.

Detective Phillips

I INFORMED HIM OF THE INFORMATION I HAD RECEIVED ABOUT THE DOUBLE HOMICIDES AND WHO MAY BE INVOLVED IN THE DOUBLE HOMICIDE AS FAR AS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON AND THAT SHE WAS THE EX-WIFE OR CURRENT WIFE OF O.J. SIMPSON AND THAT CAPTAIN GARTLAND REQUESTED THAT HIS UNIT TAKE IT OVER.

Documents precisely when and how O.J. Simpson's name entered the investigation chain of command, establishing the timeline of awareness at the supervisory level.

Evidence (7)

P-48A

Photograph of the walkway showing bloody shoeprints; witness could identify only one print in the image

discussed

Informal

Bloody shoeprints along the north walkway at 875 South Bundy, fading before the rear gate

discussed

Informal

Three areas of blood on the rear gate

discussed

Informal

Blood drops along the walkway

discussed

Informal

Bloody paw prints going south on Bundy and around the corner of Dorothy

discussed

Informal

Jeep, loose change, and blood drop at the rear of 875 South Bundy

discussed

+ 1 more

Notable Exchanges (4)

Lance A. Ito•Marcia Clark

Opening of session: Clark asks if her (prior) objection was overruled; Ito confirms, then quips 'Sometimes they're sustained' — Clark echoes it back, getting a laugh.

light

Lance A. Ito•Marcia Clark

After multiple attempts to get Phillips to explain why the case was reassigned, Ito simply supplies the answer himself — 'Better resources' — cutting off Clark's circling.

impatient/strategic

Marcia Clark•Johnnie Cochran•Lance A. Ito

Clark asks about 'VIP treatment' in connection with the O.J. Simpson notification order; Cochran objects that it assumes facts not in evidence and requests a sidebar. The proceeding ends mid-objection.

strategic

Marcia Clark•Detective Phillips

Methodical reconstruction of the same crime scene walkthrough taken three separate times — with Riske/Fuhrman, then Vannatter, then Lange — to establish a documented chain of who saw what and when.

strategic

Light Moments (2)

Lance A. Ito / Marcia Clark

After Clark asks if her objection was overruled, Ito confirms and adds 'Sometimes they're sustained' — Clark and the judge banter the line back and forth.

Lance A. Ito

Ito interrupts Clark's prolonged questioning about why the case was reassigned by simply stating 'Better resources' — answering the question himself before she could get it out.

Objections

13 objections (3 sustained, 9 overruled)

Proceeding 4872 • 342 utterances • Prosecution witness

Criminal Trial

Department 103