📄 Sidebar: Dr. Speed's testimony — Monday, August 7, 1995
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▲ Day 130 of 167

Sidebar: Dr. Speed's testimony

Date: Monday, August 7, 1995 • Utterances: 39
Defense attorney Peter Neufeld confers with Judge Ito about how to handle Dr. Speed's testimony regarding error rates in DNA frequency calculations, specifically trying to avoid introducing a letter signed by 26 scientists. Neufeld proposed limiting testimony to scientists the witness had personal familiarity with, but Ito ruled that personal conversations and unpublished communications do not constitute an adequate evidentiary basis under California Evidence Code 801(b). Neufeld agreed to move on without pursuing that line of questioning.
1 (The following proceedings were held at the bench:)
2 THE COURT:

We are over at the sidebar. I take it we're about to launch into this famous letter.

3 MR. NEUFELD:

I'm thinking I can avoid the letter, and the way I think I can avoid the letter is, instead of having him list the 26 people in the letter, he's only going to list the--I think the other six or seven people who he said are people in his field that he is personally familiar with their views. So I won't have to actually introduce the letter. I can avoid the letter that way. The list of names that he has there is simply the list of names on the letter.

4 THE COURT:

Well, he's got what appears to me to be about a half-inch worth of notes there sitting in front of him.

5 MR. NEUFELD:

No. What he has sitting in front of him is Bruce Weir's report and what he has sitting in front of--Bruce Weir's report and the letter to nature, and that's it.

6 THE COURT:

Well, he had the list of names in front of him at hell.

7 MR. HARMON:

Can we see what he's got?

8 MR. NEUFELD:

The list of names is actually written on the back of one of the pages of the letter to nature, and all it is is a list of names that's printed on the letter to nature, and he's simply, before he came in here today, circled those people who he had personal contact or he's personally familiar with their conclusions as opposed to relying on the letter itself.

9 THE COURT:

All right. You realize by opening this up that you're giving the Prosecution the opportunity to cross-examine on all the works of those other people. They're going to ask for a two-week continuance for the opportunity to cross-examine on what I consider to be a relatively silly point, whether or not one should consider error rates in doing these kind of collections. That's the whole point, right?

KEY QUOTE
10 MR. COCHRAN:

Let me--

11 THE COURT:

No, no, no.

12 MR. COCHRAN:

Can I--

13 THE COURT:

No.

14 MR. NEUFELD:

I can ask it.

15 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
16 MR. NEUFELD:

Your Honor--

17 THE COURT:

Do you understand my concern, Mr. Neufeld, that you can open this up wider than you want to?

18 MR. NEUFELD:

Let me see if I understand the law in California on this point. I thought that the law is that if he wants to, he could call these individual scientists if he wanted to as part of his case and ask them whether or not they in fact expressed the opinions that this witness says he's relying on. I think that is fair and they are entitled to do. But if I don't introduce the letter and I don't introduce any of the other people, isn't that the full extent of what they can do once I mention those names?

19 MR. HARMON:

I think the fundamental question under 801 is, do we just let him come in and give a list of people he's familiar with and then force me to call eight people? I think under 801, we're entitled to argue whether or not--whether you think as a foundational matter this is kind of gossip recently relied on by experts in this field and not force me to have that before the jury.

20 THE COURT:

Isn't he relying upon the works of these people?

21 MR. NEUFELD:

Some of them, he's relying--first of all, I object to the notion it's gossip. Some of them, he's relying on their printed work. In other instances, he's relying on telephone conversations he's had with some of them or in-person discussions he had with them. It's going to be limited to those people that he has that kind of familiarity with, and I'm not going to read a list of other people as Mr. Harmon pointed out earlier that--whose names he didn't really recognize. That's how I thought I would avoid the letter itself. Now--

22 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
23 MR. NEUFELD:

So the question is, if I just do that, does that open the door to some two-week continuance?

24 THE COURT:

Well, here's the problem. For starters, it has to be something that a reasonable scientist will rely upon and interpret as in the--and given the nature of this field, published works. Okay. And now, let's assume this is too published works. Then Mr. Harmon has to have the opportunity to locate those published works and to evaluate them and to use them to cross-examine this guy. That's what you're about to open up. Telephone conversations with people about this particular issue doesn't cut it as far as a basis for forming scientific--

25 MR. NEUFELD:

I would respectfully disagree and I would ask the Court to consider the fact that very often in the scientific community--

26 THE COURT:

Well, Mr. Neufeld, this is getting incredibly redundant.

27 MR. NEUFELD:

If I may--

28 THE COURT:

Now we are talking about computation of laboratory error rate into the calculations of frequency. That's all we are talking about here, which you've established; have you not? These jurors have not taken a note for half an hour. Have you noticed that? They've gotten the point.

29 MR. NEUFELD:

May I? Is it the Court's ruling that it doesn't consider personal conversations or nonpublished reports to be an adequate basis under rule 801(B)?

30 THE COURT:

In this unique context, yes.

31 MR. NEUFELD:

Then I will move on and I will not worry. At this point, I'll just go forward.

32 THE COURT:

Okay.

33 MR. NEUFELD:

If I go forward at this point, it hasn't opened any doors.

KEY QUOTE
34 THE COURT:

That's true.

35 MR. HARMON:

I would like to examine these notes he has.

36 THE COURT:

Do they--

37 MR. HARMON:

I'd like to put something on the record about Mr. Neufeld's representations about those slides because although I don't want to waste the jurors' time, I think it's very critical--

38 MR. NEUFELD:

You may want to consider these--by the way, these were actually--they were on the board and some of them, not all of them were used at this point. These two were marked at that point.

39 THE COURT:

Let's proceed.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Lance A. Ito
These jurors have not taken a note for half an hour. Have you noticed that? They've gotten the point.
Ito signals that the defense has belabored the error rate argument and the jury is tuning out, implicitly pressuring Neufeld to wrap up.
Lance A. Ito
Telephone conversations with people about this particular issue doesn't cut it as far as a basis for forming scientific--
The court's key evidentiary ruling: informal communications cannot serve as the foundation for expert scientific opinion under 801(b).
Lance A. Ito
You realize by opening this up that you're giving the Prosecution the opportunity to cross-examine on all the works of those other people. They're going to ask for a two-week continuance.
Ito warns Neufeld that his strategy could badly backfire, handing the prosecution a major delay and expanded cross-examination scope.
Peter Neufeld
If I go forward at this point, it hasn't opened any doors.
Neufeld confirms his tactical retreat — he abandons the letter and the scientist list to avoid triggering a continuance and broader prosecution cross-examination.

Evidence (3)

Informal
Letter to Nature signed by approximately 26 scientists regarding error rates in DNA frequency calculations
discussed but ultimately not introduced; defense withdrew plan to reference it
Informal
Bruce Weir's report, present in front of the witness
identified as materials witness had before him
Informal
Slides/notes referenced by Harmon at end of conference
Harmon sought to examine; Neufeld noted some were marked and some were displayed on the board

Notable Exchanges (2)

Lance A. ItoJohnnie Cochran
Cochran attempts to interject twice and is shut down both times by Ito with blunt 'No, no, no' and 'No.'
dismissive
Peter NeufeldRockne HarmonLance A. Ito
Three-way negotiation over whether naming scientists the witness personally spoke with opens the door to prosecution cross-examination and a continuance; Ito rules personal conversations insufficient as scientific foundation.
strategic

Objections

1 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)
Proceeding 7202 • 39 utterances
Criminal Trial
Department 103
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📂 AUG 7, 1995 📄 Sidebar: Dr. Speed's testimony
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