📄 Jury excused — Monday, August 7, 1995
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\AUG\7\JURY-EXCUSED.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 130 of 167

Jury excused

Date: Monday, August 7, 1995 • Utterances: 71
With the jury excused, Cochran argued that the prosecution was improperly shifting the burden of proof to the defense by repeatedly asking what the defense 'could have' done during cross-examination of Dr. Gerdes. Separately, Scheck sought approval to use a series of slides graphically illustrating LAPD DNA lab errors; Clarke objected that the slides were argumentative and misleading, and Ito allowed them conditioned on proper labeling as 'mock validation studies.'
1 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, we have--

2 THE COURT:

All right. Ladies and gentlemen, there are a couple of things I need to take up out of your presence, so I'm going to ask you to step back into the jury room. We will call you out in probably ten or fifteen minutes. All right. Dr. Gerdes, you may step down.

3 (At 11:11 A.M. the jury was excused and the following proceedings were held in open court:)
4 THE COURT:

All right. The record should reflect all the jurors have withdrawn from the courtroom. Mr. Scheck.

5 MR. SCHECK:

First, Mr. Cochran has an application.

6 MR. COCHRAN:

I would like to just address the Court, your Honor, as to one issue. Your Honor, repeatedly we have seen questioning by the Prosecutors with regard to the Defense could do this, the Defense could do that, and I think that is grossly unfair to Mr. Simpson, because as the Court is aware, the Defendant doesn't have to prove anything. Just harken back to the voir dire. You have told this jury Mr. Simpson could go to sleep if he wanted to.

Obviously he hasn't done that in this case. But I think it is terribly unfair, under the provisions of the state constitution and the U.S. constitution to try to shift the burden to Mr. Simpson. He does not have to prove anything. And I think that whole line of questioning is unfair. I'm making this objection primarily because I think it applies not only to this witness, but to others, and what I'm asking the Court to do is to prohibit the Prosecution from doing this, and also at the appropriate time you will be instructing this jury, but to instruct them the Defense does not have to do any kind of testing in this particular case. And I think it is unfair, unfair inference. You mentioned Mr. Blake a hundred times and now we hear Blake and Taylor and what Gerdes does, could have done, and that is really unfair, your Honor, and I wanted to at least address the Court on this and ask you to give a curative instruction in that regard.

7 THE COURT:

All right. That will be given and has been given as one of the Court's formal instructions. The burden is on the Prosecution. However, there is also a long line of cases that during the course of argument the Prosecution can argue the failure to call logical witnesses.

8 MR. COCHRAN:

Doesn't it fly in the face--not to belabor it--doesn't it fly in the face where you start off instructing the jury we don't have to prove anything and then they come along and they do exactly that and then you instruct them that we don't have to prove anything.

9 THE COURT:

I have instructed them in the most graphic way that I can that Mr. Simpson can sit here and sleep through the whole trial if he cares to. That is something you even remember.

KEY QUOTE
10 MR. COCHRAN:

You did that and I just reminded you.

11 THE COURT:

I'm sure I don't need to be reminded of that and that is why I use it.

12 MR. COCHRAN:

I appreciate that. And in addition to that, it seems to be an incongruity for them to continue to throw up this thing as though we have to prove anything because we don't have to, and I think that is grossly unfair and that is the point.

13 THE COURT:

I will instruct the jury at the appropriate time that the burden is completely and 100 percent on the Prosecution, rest assured of that. All right. Mr. Scheck.

14 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, we have some slides that I will hand up to the Court. I have--give to Prosecution--maybe--what is the best way you want to do this? Do you want to just take a look at them or put them up?

15 THE COURT:

Just hand them to me.

16 (Discussion held off the record between Deputy District Attorney and Defense counsel.)
17 THE COURT:

Do you have any extra copies?

18 MR. SCHECK:

Yes, yes, I have them right here.

19 (Brief pause.)
20 MR. SCHECK:

Perhaps if I just go through them it will be easier.

21 MR. CLARKE:

I haven't seen them, your Honor.

22 (Brief pause.)
23 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, these--these slides would be used in conjunction with--they address the four different examples of errors at LAPD, and if we could turn to--

24 THE COURT:

These are the same four, or depending on how you call it, five mistakes that Mr. Clarke went through, correct?

25 MR. SCHECK:

Right.

26 THE COURT:

There is an illustration of the different calls, correct?

27 MR. SCHECK:

Yes. This would be a breakout of the genotypes listed on Prosecution's exhibit no. 561, which are the strips, and what it indicates here is the correct type in the proficiency testing sample being 1.2, 1.3 for the sperm fraction and it is labeled with the sign for males, and the LAPD type is reported which was a 1.3, 4. And it indicates the female fraction and indicates that this was, as the testimony indicates, done first by Collin Yamauchi on 9/9/93 and then again Erin Riley did the same sample, got the same result on 9/21, `93. Next slide, please. This indicates--

28 THE COURT:

All right. Counsel, I have all of these in front of me.

29 MR. SCHECK:

Yes. The next thing indicates that--

30 THE COURT:

All right. Rather than sit here and tell me what they are, what are your objections, Mr. Clarke?

31 MR. CLARKE:

I think at least this slide is argumentative and misleading. As far as this witness' own testimony about--and the witness conceded that, yes, these people cannot be excluded, even persons with a different type, because of the potential for the spillover of female DNA and the male DNA. So just judging by in particular the portion of the slide that is in black on the right, this witness has conceded that, no, you wouldn't wrongfully include anyone, you wouldn't wrongfully exclude anyone because the analyst, a trained analyst, must necessarily consider that may be the victim's that is coming out in the sperm fraction.

32 THE COURT:

All right.

33 MR. CLARKE:

If the witness hadn't conceded that I think we would be in a different situation.

34 MR. SCHECK:

That is not his testimony.

35 THE COURT:

Wait, wait, wait. A-1, B-2 and C-3, these are all case work examples, correct?

36 MR. SCHECK:

The--

37 THE COURT:

Are these case work or validation studies?

38 MR. SCHECK:

This--what this slide refers to--

39 THE COURT:

I know the four or five mistakes. I know what we are talking about here.

40 MR. SCHECK:

Right. This one is a mock validation study.

41 THE COURT:

Okay.

42 MR. SCHECK:

And the point that Dr. Gerdes made on direct, and we feel has to be cleared up, because it is very hard when you deal with these, you have to break out the types and show exactly what the points are, that the typing result of LAPD of the 1.2, 4 could be, if that--given the fact that the female fraction is a 1.2, 4, the number of different possible suspects in terms of genotypes that could be included by that result in a case would be called a 4, 4 a 1.2, 1.2 and that is why he considers this a mistake, and a serious mistake, and the kind of thing that he has seen in other forensic laboratories, and that is our point.

43 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Clarke, any other comment on all of these matters?

44 MR. CLARKE:

Referring to this first slide?

45 THE COURT:

Any of them.

46 MR. CLARKE:

Actually, I haven't had a chance to look at the others. We have been dealing with this one.

47 THE COURT:

Do you have them all printed in front of you?

48 MR. CLARKE:

Yes.

49 THE COURT:

They are all similar. There are two different batches here.

50 MR. CLARKE:

If I could look at them.

51 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Scheck, my one concern is that 1-A, B-2 and C-3 do not--are not self-labeled and being as being validation studies.

52 MR. SCHECK:

Well, what I will do is when we put this up, I will label them.

53 THE COURT:

As the others do clearly say this is proficiency testing.

54 MR. SCHECK:

I see. So we will--

55 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
56 MR. SCHECK:

We will have Mr. Harris put it on the side and I will refer to the exhibits when I show the slides so it is clear what we are referring to.

57 MR. CLARKE:

I also think as to the wrong suspects included, that is very argumentative and misleading.

58 THE COURT:

It is inaccurate in terms of a mock--

59 MR. SCHECK:

I will put down "Mock." It is not a real case. It didn't really happen. The point is it could happen if it were a real case and that is his testimony.

60 MR. CLARKE:

Even in a mock case it is extremely misleading.

61 THE COURT:

Here is the problem. We all agree they have gone through all four or five of these, on both sides. This is a graphic breakout of what is there. I think it is easier to understand in this form as long as it is correctly labeled what it is. This is my only problem.

62 MR. SCHECK:

So we should put down--we will put down "Mock validation study" underneath the 9/9/93, rerun 9/21/93.

63 THE COURT:

1-A, B-2 and C-3.

64 MR. SCHECK:

Yes.

65 THE COURT:

All right. Anything else?

66 MR. CLARKE:

Could I just have a moment to look at the remainder?

67 (Brief pause.)
68 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)
69 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Clarke, any other comment?

70 MR. CLARKE:

Your Honor, I just think they are extremely argumentative in the context of this witness' testimony. The way they are worded and the way I presented I think will do nothing but mislead the jury.

71 THE COURT:

All right. The objection is noted. All right. Let's have the jury, please.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Johnnie Cochran
the Defendant doesn't have to prove anything. Just harken back to the voir dire. You have told this jury Mr. Simpson could go to sleep if he wanted to.
Cochran invoking Ito's own prior instruction to pressure the court into a curative instruction against burden-shifting by the prosecution.
Lance A. Ito
I have instructed them in the most graphic way that I can that Mr. Simpson can sit here and sleep through the whole trial if he cares to.
Ito pushing back on Cochran's implicit suggestion he needs reminding, while affirming the instruction was already given.
Lance A. Ito
there is also a long line of cases that during the course of argument the Prosecution can argue the failure to call logical witnesses.
The court carving out the prosecution's right to comment on missing witnesses even while agreeing the burden stays with the prosecution.
Barry Scheck
it is not a real case. It didn't really happen. The point is it could happen if it were a real case and that is his testimony.
Scheck defending the slides' relevance despite their mock-study basis — the argument being about systemic risk, not a specific wrongful result.

Evidence (2)

People's 561
PCR strip results — the DNA typing strips from LAPD used as the basis for the error-illustration slides
discussed in context of slide breakout
Informal
Defense slides illustrating four/five LAPD DNA lab errors including proficiency testing and mock validation studies, with genotype breakouts (e.g., correct type 1.2/1.3 vs. LAPD-reported 1.3/4)
conditionally approved with required labeling corrections

Notable Exchanges (2)

Johnnie CochranLance A. Ito
Cochran pressed Ito to issue a curative instruction against burden-shifting; Ito agreed on the substance but noted the prosecution retains the right to argue failure to call logical witnesses — and mildly rebuked Cochran for 'reminding' him of his own prior instruction.
strategic with mild friction
Barry ScheckGeorge ClarkeLance A. Ito
Clarke had not seen the defense slides before the hearing; Ito reviewed them on the fly and allowed them with one condition — slides A-1, B-2, and C-3 must be labeled as mock validation studies, not real casework.
procedural

Light Moments (1)

Lance A. Ito
Cochran told Ito 'You did that and I just reminded you,' to which Ito replied 'I'm sure I don't need to be reminded of that and that is why I use it' — a dry exchange about whose idea the sleep-through-trial instruction was.

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ LAPD DNA Lab (Collin Yamauchi / Erin Riley)
demonstrative evidence — error illustration slides
Defense slides broke out genotype results from proficiency and mock validation studies to show LAPD reported incorrect types (e.g., 1.3/4 instead of correct 1.2/1.3), arguing the errors could lead to wrongful inclusions in real casework.

Objections

2 objections (0 sustained, 0 overruled)
Proceeding 7211 • 71 utterances
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 AUG 7, 1995 📄 Jury excused
AUG 7, 1995 KRT DvH TD