📄 Direct examination of Laura Hart McKinny (afternoon) — Tuesday, August 29, 1995
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\AUG\29\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-LAURA-HA.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 144 of 167

Direct examination of Laura Hart McKinny (afternoon)

Witness: Laura Hart McKinny
Examiner: Gerald Uelmen
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, August 29, 1995 • Utterances: 170
The afternoon continuation of Laura Hart McKinny's direct examination focused on playing the remaining tape excerpts (C-10 through C-18 and D-1/D-2) from Defense exhibit 1365, with McKinny clarifying her editing process, Laurie Diaz's role-playing arrangement, and the nature of breaks in the recordings. The examination concluded with a significant disclosure: Fuhrman had a verbal agreement to receive $10,000 upon sale of the screenplay and was credited on the title page as 'Technical advisor, Officer Mark Fuhrman.'
1 THE COURT:

All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. All parties are again present.

Laura Hart McKinny, (402) the witness on the stand at the time of the noon recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

2 THE COURT:

Miss McKinny is on the witness stand undergoing direct examination by Mr. Uelmen.

3 MR. UELMEN:

Thank you, your Honor.

4 THE COURT:

All right. We had just completed, let's see, this was C-9.

5 MR. UELMEN:

Yes.

6 THE COURT:

All right. Proceed.

7 MR. UELMEN:

So we are up to no. 10.

DIRECT EXAMINATION (RESUMED) BY MR. UELMEN

8 MR. UELMEN:

Good afternoon, Miss McKinny.

9 MS. MCKINNY:

Good afternoon.

10 MR. UELMEN:

If I could just clarify a couple of questions that came up this morning. You indicated that on one of the interviews you asked Laurie Diaz to participate?

11 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

12 MR. UELMEN:

And what instructions did you give her with respect to her participation in that interview?

13 THE COURT:

I thought we asked that question already.

14 MR. UELMEN:

I'm not sure it was clarified that she was actually role playing.

15 THE COURT:

She was playing as a woman who was thinking about going on the police department, correct?

16 MR. UELMEN:

Yes. That is the only point I wanted to clarify.

17 THE COURT:

It is clear.

18 MR. UELMEN:

She actually didn't want to be a police officer; is that correct?

19 MS. MCKINNY:

No.

20 MR. UELMEN:

She was just playing that role?

21 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

22 MR. UELMEN:

Was Detective Fuhrman told that she was playing a role or was he told that she wanted to be a police officer?

23 MS. MCKINNY:

Initially he was told that she was a friend of mine who wanted to be--was considering going to the police academy and entering the CPA program to be a police officer.

24 MR. UELMEN:

Thank you. And you also indicated this morning that as the interviews progressed and you had less time available, the nature of the editing that you conducted was different with respect to the later transcripts than with respect to the first one?

25 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

26 MR. UELMEN:

Could you describe what you mean by that in terms of how the editing process differed?

27 MS. MCKINNY:

Initially I was more exact in giving the questions and the answers. Later I sometimes omitted my question because I knew what it was and I didn't need to transcribe my question.

28 MR. UELMEN:

So you did not use a question/answer format for the later transcriptions; is that correct?

29 MS. MCKINNY:

It was more random. Sometimes again it was based on how much time I had to transcribe in consideration of family life, work and other projects that I was--in which I was involved.

30 MR. UELMEN:

Did your editing ever involve changing anything that Officer Fuhrman said to you?

KEY QUOTE
31 MS. MCKINNY:

No.

32 MR. UELMEN:

So even in the later transcripts where you were editing out your questions, you were still putting verbatim the words that Officer Fuhrman used into the transcript?

33 MS. MCKINNY:

The best that I could hear on the tape, yes.

KEY QUOTE
34 MR. UELMEN:

Thank you. I believe we can proceed then with excerpt no. 10.

35 (At 1:06 P.M., Defense exhibit 1365, a videotape, was played.)
36 MR. UELMEN:

Excerpt number C-11.

37 THE COURT:

Counsel, I'm a little concerned about the breaks in the tape, the fade in and out and obviously a stop/start there. Do you want to ask some questions about that?

38 MR. UELMEN:

I can inquire about that.

39 MR. UELMEN:

Was there any interruption in the taping that you can recall of this incident?

40 MS. MCKINNY:

No, I can't recall any purposeful interruption of this incident.

41 MR. UELMEN:

Was there any occasion when the tape recorder was moved in the course of tape-recording?

42 MS. MCKINNY:

In this particular incident, again I don't recall. There were times when the batteries would run down and I would have to stop and replace the batteries. There were times when I had to--it would stop--the indicator would pop up and I would have to restart it again.

43 MR. UELMEN:

As you heard this particular excerpt was anything left out of what was actually said by--by Officer Fuhrman?

44 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, no foundation.

45 THE COURT:

Overruled.

46 MS. MCKINNY:

Not to my knowledge, but it is possible, but not to my knowledge.

47 MR. UELMEN:

All right. If we could proceed then with excerpt no. 11.

48 (At 1:11 P.M., Defense exhibit 1365, a videotape, was played.)
49 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
50 MR. UELMEN:

Just one further clarifying question.

51 MR. UELMEN:

The excerpt you heard, did it capture the essence of what Officer Fuhrman was saying?

52 MR. DARDEN:

Objection, calls for a conclusion.

53 THE COURT:

Overruled.

54 MR. DARDEN:

Speculation.

55 THE COURT:

You can answer the question.

56 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes. We were discussing partner relationships.

57 MR. UELMEN:

Thank you. No. 11.

58 (At 1:11 P.M., Defense exhibit 1365, a videotape, was played.)
59 MR. UELMEN:

Now, in this excerpt there is a question asked by you with reference to an article that you have that does not appear in the transcript. Is this an example of the kind of editing that you were talking about?

60 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, that would be an example of something that I might have edited. I don't have any of my other research material with me, but there had been some articles in the Los Angeles times that I had--I was referring to in this particular portion.

61 MR. UELMEN:

All right.

62 MS. MCKINNY:

And I believe I had the article there with me.

63 MR. UELMEN:

Excerpt no. 12.

64 (At 1:14 P.M., Defense exhibit 1365, a videotape, was played.)
65 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
66 MR. UELMEN:

There is a point in that excerpt where he makes a noise "Okay, let's go." Did you hear that?

67 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

68 MR. UELMEN:

Could you describe what was going on at that point?

69 MS. MCKINNY:

It was the--he was making the sound that the skateboard would make when it was ran over by the tire of the car.

70 MR. UELMEN:

So he was imitating kind of a bumping sound?

71 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

72 MR. UELMEN:

Thank you. No. 13.

73 (At 1:15 P.M., Defense exhibit 1365, a videotape, was played.)
74 MR. UELMEN:

A couple questions about that excerpt. In your transcript I believe you had referred to some sort of motion made by Officer Fuhrman as he was describing taking the driver's license and then telling someone "You are a fucking jerk, you get out of here." Did he make some motion at that point? Do you recall this?

75 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

76 MR. UELMEN:

Could you describe the motion he made at that time?

77 MS. MCKINNY:

It would be similar to one that you would make to rip up something with your two hands.

78 MR. UELMEN:

Could you demonstrate that for us?

79 (No audible response.)
80 MR. UELMEN:

With your hands?

81 MS. MCKINNY:

I don't remember exactly how he did it, but it would be something along that line, (Indicating).

82 MR. UELMEN:

Pulling your hands apart?

83 MS. MCKINNY:

Pulling your hands apart, ripping something up.

84 MR. UELMEN:

As though you were tearing something?

85 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

86 MR. UELMEN:

The transcript that we have on the video refers to "Officers only want to go so far and they are not chicken up to supervisors." As I heard that it sounded like "Kissin' up to supervisors." Do you recall whether one word or the other was used there?

87 MS. MCKINNY:

The latter would be correct.

88 MR. UELMEN:

It would be kissin' up?

89 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

90 MR. UELMEN:

Excerpt no. 14.

91 (At 1:17 P.M., Defense exhibit 1365, a videotape, was played.)
92 MR. UELMEN:

In the middle of that excerpt there was a high-pitched voice saying "Thank you." Like "Thank you." Was that Officer Fuhrman speaking?

93 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

94 MR. UELMEN:

What was he doing?

95 MS. MCKINNY:

He was speaking in the voice of a woman officer who would have been thanking him or any other officer that he would be describing for doing whatever he did to help.

96 MR. UELMEN:

Thank you. No. 15.

97 (At 1:20 P.M., Defense exhibit 1365, a videotape, was played.)
98 MR. UELMEN:

No. 16.

99 (At 1:21 P.M., Defense exhibit 1365, a videotape, was played.)
100 MR. UELMEN:

Now, the female voice on that excerpt is the voice of Laurie Diaz?

101 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct.

102 MR. UELMEN:

So this was the interview you had arranged to have Miss Diaz come in and role play?

103 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

104 MR. UELMEN:

No. 17, please.

105 (At 1:24 P.M., Defense exhibit 1365, a videotape, was played.)
106 MR. UELMEN:

Once again the female voice on that excerpt is the voice of Laurie Diaz?

107 MS. MCKINNY:

That's correct. There is a slight error in the transcript there. Where it says "McKinny" that last time would be Laurie Diaz.

108 MR. UELMEN:

Okay. The final comment was Miss Diaz, not your voice?

109 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

110 MR. UELMEN:

The last excerpt in the police misconduct offer of proof no. 18, your Honor, is another one that we do not have audiotape for.

111 MR. UELMEN:

So if you could observe this one carefully and I will have a few questions for you. If we could have no. 18.

112 (At 1:25 P.M., Defense exhibit 1365, a videotape, was played.)
113 MR. UELMEN:

Do you recall those words being spoken by Officer Fuhrman?

114 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

115 MR. UELMEN:

And when and where were they spoken?

116 MS. MCKINNY:

They were spoken in--I believe--I believe it was 19--the spring of `87.

117 MR. UELMEN:

All right. And is this the interview you referred to earlier where the tape was inadvertently erased?

118 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

119 MR. UELMEN:

This was no. 9?

120 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

121 MR. UELMEN:

I believe we had some earlier excerpts from no. 9. And this transcript was prepared how long after the interview took place?

122 MS. MCKINNY:

It would have been prepared within a day or two of the interview.

123 MR. UELMEN:

And is the transcript an accurate record of what Officer Fuhrman said?

124 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

125 MR. UELMEN:

You didn't change any of his words?

126 MS. MCKINNY:

No.

127 MR. UELMEN:

Your Honor, the final two offers relate to the attitude of the witness. They are excerpts from a tape that was made on July 28, 1994, after this case was initiated, and after Officer Fuhrman had testified as a witness at the preliminary hearing.

128 MR. UELMEN:

Do you recall meeting with Officer Fuhrman in July of 1994?

129 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

130 MR. UELMEN:

And did you tape-record that meeting?

131 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

132 MR. UELMEN:

And did you prepare a transcript of that meeting?

133 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

134 MR. UELMEN:

And what was the purpose of this meeting in July of 1994?

135 MS. MCKINNY:

I was meeting with the gentleman who had optioned the property and Officer Fuhrman and myself. It was in part to be a story conference updating Officer Fuhrman with what was happening with the property at that time.

136 MR. UELMEN:

And Mr. Flynn, who was he?

137 MS. MCKINNY:

Mr. John Flynn, he was the gentleman who was the producer who had optioned the property, the script.

138 MR. UELMEN:

All right. When you talk about the property, you are talking about the screenplay that you wrote?

139 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes, I'm talking about the screenplay.

140 MR. UELMEN:

And where did this meeting take place?

141 MS. MCKINNY:

In Alice's restaurant in Westwood.

142 MR. UELMEN:

All right. So you had returned from North Carolina for the purpose of this meeting?

143 MS. MCKINNY:

I returned from North Carolina for the purpose of this meeting as well as other business meetings, yes.

144 MR. UELMEN:

And did the subject of Officer Fuhrman's role as a witness in this case, the case of People versus O.J. Simpson, come up in the course of that conversation?

145 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

146 MR. UELMEN:

If we could have excerpt D-1, please.

147 MR. DARDEN:

Your Honor, this is irrelevant to the issue in front of the court.

148 THE COURT:

Overruled. Overruled.

149 (At 1:28 P.M., Defense exhibit 1365, a videotape, was played.)
150 MR. UELMEN:

And if we could have excerpt no. 2.

151 (At 1:29 P.M., Defense exhibit 1365, a videotape, was played.)
152 MR. UELMEN:

That concludes our direct examination, your Honor.

153 THE COURT:

Mr. Darden.

154 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
155 MR. UELMEN:

If I could have one moment.

156 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
157 MR. UELMEN:

I'm sorry, your Honor, I misspoke. Just a couple more questions.

158 MR. UELMEN:

Was there any arrangement for Officer Fuhrman to receive any compensation for the role he played in assisting you with this screenplay?

159 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

160 MR. UELMEN:

And what was that arrangement?

161 MS. MCKINNY:

We had a verbal agreement of $10,000 upon the sale of the screenplay.

KEY QUOTE
162 MR. UELMEN:

And was any credit in the screenplay itself given to Officer Fuhrman for the role that he played?

163 MS. MCKINNY:

He was on the title page as technical advisor, Officer Mark Fuhrman.

KEY QUOTE
164 MR. UELMEN:

All right. So the title page indicates "Technical advisor, Officer Mark Fuhrman"?

165 MS. MCKINNY:

Yes.

166 MR. UELMEN:

And does the term "Technical advisor" have any meaning within the trade? What does "Technical advisor" mean?

167 MS. MCKINNY:

It would mean to someone in the trade that the information--procedural information, some of the dialogue, some of the situations would have--would be fairly accurate and it indicated that--it would indicate that the writer went to some length to make sure that that information was accurate.

168 MR. UELMEN:

Thank you.

169 (Discussion held off the record between Defense counsel.)
170 MR. UELMEN:

That concludes our examination.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Laura Hart McKinny
We had a verbal agreement of $10,000 upon the sale of the screenplay.
Establishes Fuhrman had a direct financial stake in the screenplay project, relevant to his credibility and potential motive to provide dramatic or exaggerated material.
Laura Hart McKinny
He was on the title page as technical advisor, Officer Mark Fuhrman.
Fuhrman's credited role as technical advisor corroborates the depth of his involvement and that the content of the tapes was purposefully contributed, not inadvertently captured.
Laura Hart McKinny
Did your editing ever involve changing anything that Officer Fuhrman said to you? No.
Directly bolsters the authenticity of Fuhrman's words on the tapes; McKinny asserts she transcribed him verbatim even when omitting her own questions.
Laura Hart McKinny
The best that I could hear on the tape, yes.
Slight qualifier on accuracy — acknowledging tape quality limitations while affirming she did not alter his words.

Evidence (1)

Defense exhibit 1365
Videotape compilation of McKinny-Fuhrman interview excerpts (C-10 through C-18, D-1, D-2), including a segment from the spring 1987 interview whose original audio was inadvertently erased
played sequentially throughout examination

Notable Exchanges (4)

Gerald UelmenLaura Hart McKinny
Uelmen elicits that Fuhrman was promised $10,000 and listed as 'Technical advisor' on the screenplay title page, establishing his financial and professional investment in the project.
revealing
Gerald UelmenLaura Hart McKinny
McKinny explains a Fuhrman gesture — pulling his hands apart as if ripping something — that accompanied his account of tearing up a driver's license while telling someone 'You are a fucking jerk, you get out of here.'
revealing
Lance A. ItoGerald Uelmen
Ito interrupts to express concern about visible fades and stop/start breaks in the tape, prompting Uelmen to ask McKinny about possible recording interruptions.
strategic
Gerald UelmenLaura Hart McKinny
Uelmen corrects a transcript misattribution: the final comment in excerpt 17 was Laurie Diaz speaking, not McKinny, as the transcript had labeled it.
procedural

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Mark Fuhrman
bias / financial interest
Defense established through McKinny that Fuhrman had a verbal agreement for $10,000 upon screenplay sale and was credited as technical advisor, suggesting a motive to provide dramatic, self-serving, or inflammatory material during the interviews.

Objections

4 objections (0 sustained, 4 overruled)
Proceeding 7466 • 170 utterances • Defense witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
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📂 AUG 29, 1995 📄 Direct examination of Laura Ha
AUG 29, 1995 KRT DvH TD