With regard to the April 2nd, 1985 tape, umm, throughout your testimony this morning as it related to that particular tape, you had to refer repeatedly to your outline; is that right?
And that is because for the most part you have no independent recollection of what was said during the April 2nd, 1985, conversation; is that correct?
Let me ask you specifically about the--the portion of the tapes where Detective Fuhrman--Detective Fuhrman talks about tearing up driver's licenses. When you testified in North Carolina you didn't recall the--Detective Fuhrman's statements; is that correct?
Okay. Well, do you recall being asked this question and giving this answer at line 12--lines 12 through 17, page 19? And to put that in context, Mr. Cochran here handed you a copy of your outline to refresh your recollection. Do you recall that?
I don't know where we are. I'm sorry, I'm just--I don't know where we are in North Carolina. I don't know where we are here, so if I could--
--there was an occasion where you were asked questions by Mr. Cochran about allegations that Detective Fuhrman had torn up driver's licenses. Do you recall that?
Well, would it refresh your recollection if I gave you a transcript to take a look at? Do you have this, Jerry?
Miss McKinny, why don't you take the time to read it to yourself and see if that refreshes your recollection as to your testimony back in North Carolina.
The question is this: Isn't it true that you have no independent recollection of what Detective Fuhrman told you as it relates to the tearing up of driver's licenses?
Well, in North Carolina when I testified to that, I needed to see it on the transcript--I needed to see it. I hadn't looked over the transcripts, nor any of the information that I have discussed today, so I--you know, that is what I testified. Since that time, and since having read that over in North Carolina and having refreshed my memory, I remember that element of tearing up licenses, but I needed to read it in the transcript.
Okay. So when you testified then in North Carolina you told the Judge that you did not remember what, if anything, Fuhrman said regarding tearing up license plates--I mean driver's licenses; is that right?
And even after you were shown that transcript you still couldn't recall what, if anything, Fuhrman said in that regard; is that right?
Like I knew what was in the transcript, but beyond that, I couldn't say what he would have said about ripping up driver's licenses.
Okay. And is that your position today, that is, that the testimony you have given us as it relates to the April 2nd, 1985, interview, really what you are telling us is that you transcribed the tape, here is a transcription, if it is in the transcription, then that is what he said, right?
I'm saying that I transcribed Officer Fuhrman's words to the best of my ability accurately, yes.
To go back to the issue we just discussed, Miss McKinny, is it fair, with regard to your recall, your specific recall of what was said during the April 2nd, 1985, interview, is it fair to say that you have no independent recollection of what was said with that, but that you only know what was said because it was on the transcript?
I really need to have "Independent recollection" defined for me I think, because if you were to ask me what is on each one of these transcripts, I wouldn't--aside for maybe a few that are--that have somehow come to light, it would be hard for me to tell you what is on each transcript. But if I read it, then I remember it. I recall. It is like writing something. I won't remember that I maybe wrote it, but if I read it in one of my files, I will remember that I wrote that. So could you define then what you mean by "Independent recollection," what that would mean to you, so I can be more helpful?
Let me ask you a series of questions and ask you about some answers you gave in North Carolina, at page 19 line 12 through 17. Do you recall being asked this question and giving this answer: "Question: Does that refresh your recollection that Detective Fuhrman told you that if the suspect, the African American suspect, gives him identification he will just rip up the license?" Your answer was: "Again, if it is here, he said it. I transcribed it. I actually don't remember. It has been ten years."
Is it your testimony today that now your memory is better as it relates to that specific question and answer?
My memory regarding the transcript of what the transcript says is better, because I have read that portion of the transcript since the testimony in North Carolina.
Okay. And so are you telling us then here today, as it relates to the April 2nd, `85, transcript, what you are telling us is what is contained in the transcript and not what was actually said; is that right? Are you with me on this?
Okay. Me either. Okay. What you are recalling today is what is contained in the transcript; is that right, as opposed to what was actually said?
What I'm recalling today is what is transcribed in that transcript of mine and I am saying that that was what was said.
And you are saying that that is what was said because in your view you accurately transcribed the tape?
Okay. And not because you know for a fact each and every word said between you and Detective Fuhrman on April 2nd, 1985, correct?
I think we almost have it. Just could you repeat that one last part, "And not because"?
Are you testifying today that you have an independent recollection of what is contained in the transcript, as opposed to having an independent recollection of what was said between you and Detective Fuhrman?
Again I would probably need to have "Independent recollection" defined, but my understanding of it is that when I read the transcript I can remember having those words said to me. I can't tell you everything that is on that transcript, but when I see that excerpt in the transcript I can tell you if it was said to me or not.
Can you tell me what is not contained on the transcript, what was said that is not contained on the transcript?
If I were to ask you to recount everything Mark Fuhrman said during the April 2nd conversation, could you tell me?
Can you tell us each and everything that was said before and after each of the notations and conversations included in your transcript?
You mean before the taped interview would start and then after the taped interview was concluded can I tell you what was said during those times?
And during those occasions when you would stop the tape during the middle of your conversations and then start it again, could you tell us what was said between that time period?
No. However, it wasn't a practice to stop and start the tape. I wanted to make it clear that--that I would stop them on occasion for different reasons, but it wasn't a practice to edit material by stopping and starting. I never intended anyone--for anyone to be listening to these tapes or reading these transcripts.
Okay. Is it fair to say that without looking at the transcript, the transcript you prepared from the April 2nd, `85, interview--well, let me put it this way: Unless you look at that transcript, you can't tell us what was said; is that right?
And there were other interviews that were had between yourself and Detective Fuhrman during April of 1985; is that correct?
And is it fair to say that before you could recount to us what was said even on the tapes would you have to listen to the tapes or first read your transcript of the tapes?
Specifically. If it is a specific instance you would like me to recall or discuss, yes. Generally I have a clear understanding.
Why don't we take one now, your Honor. It might hurry things along if we take one now.
All right. We will take a 15-minute recess. Miss McKinny, you may step down. Come back in 15, please.
Again, if it is here, he said it. I transcribed it. I actually don't remember. It has been ten years.
I never intended anyone--for anyone to be listening to these tapes or reading these transcripts.
I think we have asked this question now about eight different ways.
I really need to have 'Independent recollection' defined for me I think... It is like writing something. I won't remember that I maybe wrote it, but if I read it in one of my files, I will remember that I wrote that.