Sidebar: PCR testing standards

📄 Sidebar: PCR testing standards — Monday, August 21, 1995

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\AUG\21\SIDEBAR-PCR-TESTING-STANDARDS.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 139 of 167

◀ Recross-examination of Larry Ragle (part 1) Recross-examination of Larry Ragle (part 2) ▶

Date: Monday, August 21, 1995 • Utterances: 31

Prosecution (Goldberg) sought permission at sidebar to conduct redirect examination on the topic of protective equipment and PCR testing standards, arguing defense counsel Blasier had opened the door by eliciting testimony about why criminalists wear gloves. Ito pressed both sides on the relevance, ultimately overruling the objection and giving Goldberg five minutes to address the topic. The central factual issue was whether the Bronco console — the source of blood evidence items 303, 304, and 305 — was still present and subject to PCR collection on the date the photographs were taken.

# 1 THE COURT:

All right. At the side bar.

# 2 (The following proceedings were held at the bench:)

# 3 THE COURT:

We are over at the side bar.

# 4 MR. GOLDBERG:

Your Honor, it seems that counsel has clearly opened the issue of under what conditions you should be wearing gloves, hat and protective clothing and saying that no it is not just for protecting yourself, it is also for protecting the evidence and it has evolved over time and so on and so forth. And it seems like such probative evidence to say here is what you do and put him on.

# 5 THE COURT:

Let me ask you this: He testified to that and he was led into an answer regarding PCR testing.

# 6 MR. GOLDBERG:

What?

# 7 THE COURT:

He was led into an answer concerning PCR testing and that those issues are even more necessary these days because of the sensitivity of PCR testing is what he said.

# 8 MR. GOLDBERG:

Yeah.

# 9 THE COURT:

My question to you is on this particular date in question was the console still in the Bronco and was it still subject to evidence collection for PCR testing?

KEY QUOTE

# 10 MR. GOLDBERG:

Yes. It was. That was the day, your Honor, that the console was removed from the Bronco by Michele Kestler and people working under her for purposes of PCR testing. And it was in there and it is in the photographs very clearly and his hand is right near that very area where 303, 304 and 305 came from.

KEY QUOTE

# 11 THE COURT:

What does to tell me? What does that tell me?

# 12 MR. GOLDBERG:

Sorry, I brought up the wrong photo here. Can I--

# 13 (Brief pause.)

# 14 MR. GOLDBERG:

May I just have a moment?

# 15 (Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

# 16 THE COURT:

Okay. I recollect the two--I recollect the two photographs which show Mr. Ragle leaning into the Bronco or holding the rule for a photograph of something on the driver's side door panel.

# 17 MR. GOLDBERG:

Right.

# 18 THE COURT:

Interior.

# 19 MR. GOLDBERG:

And in terms of time, this will take me about a minute.

# 20 MR. BLASIER:

It is going to take a lot more.

# 21 MR. GOLDBERG:

For me.

# 22 MR. BLASIER:

He is not processing this crime scene.

# 23 MR. GOLDBERG:

He is a criminalist who is working there.

# 24 THE COURT:

Well, why was it necessary to ask those questions? I'm just curious.

# 25 MR. BLASIER:

Ask which questions? I didn't bring it up. I responded to him on cross. He was talking about gloves.

# 26 THE COURT:

Well, the problem is you led him into an answer that had to do with sensitivity of PCR testing and why you wear protective clothing.

# 27 MR. BLASIER:

Because he wouldn't let him explain the gloves and how originally it was to protect yourself and from disease and that has changed, that has evolved. Because he wouldn't let him do that, I did that.

KEY QUOTE

# 28 MR. GOLDBERG:

He answered that. He gave that answer.

# 29 MR. BLASIER:

After I asked him.

# 30 MR. GOLDBERG:

He gave that on cross.

# 31 THE COURT:

All right. You have five minutes to do this. I will overrule the objection.

KEY QUOTE

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Hank Goldberg

That was the day, your Honor, that the console was removed from the Bronco by Michele Kestler and people working under her for purposes of PCR testing. And it was in there and it is in the photographs very clearly and his hand is right near that very area where 303, 304 and 305 came from.

Ties the criminalist's ungloved proximity to the exact location of key blood evidence items, arguing contamination risk was real and the protective equipment question is therefore probative.

Robert Blasier

Because he wouldn't let him explain the gloves and how originally it was to protect yourself and from disease and that has changed, that has evolved. Because he wouldn't let him do that, I did that.

Blasier's justification for eliciting the PCR testimony — blaming Goldberg's own cross-examination constraints for opening the door.

Lance A. Ito

All right. You have five minutes to do this. I will overrule the objection.

Ito rules for the prosecution, granting redirect on protective equipment and PCR sensitivity.

Lance A. Ito

My question to you is on this particular date in question was the console still in the Bronco and was it still subject to evidence collection for PCR testing?

Ito independently zeroes in on the evidentiary crux — whether PCR contamination risk was actually present on the day in question.

Evidence (3)

People's 303, 304, 305

Blood evidence collected from the Bronco console area

discussed in context of criminalist's proximity and PCR contamination risk

Informal

Photographs showing criminalist Ragle leaning into the Bronco, near the driver's side door panel interior

discussed to establish proximity to PCR-sensitive evidence

Informal

Bronco center console, removed by Michele Kestler for PCR testing

discussed as context for why protective equipment standards matter on the date in question

Notable Exchanges (2)

Lance A. Ito•Hank Goldberg

Ito asked pointed follow-up questions rather than simply ruling, pressing Goldberg on whether the console was actually still present for PCR collection that day — showing the judge was tracking the factual predicate independently.

strategic

Hank Goldberg•Robert Blasier

Brief back-and-forth over who opened the door on PCR testimony — Goldberg claiming the witness answered on cross, Blasier insisting he only got the full answer after his own redirect questions.

tense

Light Moments (2)

Hank Goldberg

Goldberg scrambled to find the right photo mid-argument, apologized, and asked for a moment — prompting an off-record discussion.

Robert Blasier

Blasier dryly undercut Goldberg's time estimate: 'It is going to take a lot more.'

Witness Demeanor

(Brief pause.)

(Discussion held off the record between the Deputy District Attorneys.)

Objections

1 objections (0 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 7973 • 31 utterances

Criminal Trial

Department 103