📄 Redirect examination of Michele Kestler — Wednesday, August 16, 1995
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\AUG\16\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-MICHEL.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 137 of 167

Redirect examination of Michele Kestler

Witness: Michele Kestler
Examiner: Peter Neufeld
Called by: Defense • Date: Wednesday, August 16, 1995 • Utterances: 119
Peter Neufeld used redirect to challenge Michele Kestler on three fronts: whether defense experts were excluded from early evidence examinations, the ambiguity of blood smears observed in the Bronco on August 26th, and most pointedly, whether the June 29th examination of the socks (item 13) constituted a blood search despite Kestler's claim they 'weren't looking for blood.' Neufeld pressed a document showing the comment box read 'Blood search, none obvious,' arguing the written record contradicted her testimony.
1 THE COURT:

Mr. Neufeld.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. NEUFELD

2 MR. NEUFELD:

Miss Kestler, you said that--earlier that--that when you did the initial examination of items for hair and trace and the serological testing back in June and early July 1994, that at that point it time, that Defense experts were not allowed to be present; is that correct?

3 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. Exceeds the scope of cross.

4 THE COURT:

Overruled.

5 MS. KESTLER:

I'm not sure that it was done in early June or July and you'd have to be more specific what you're referring to and where we did it.

6 MR. NEUFELD:

Well, for instance, Dr. Lee was not allowed to be present, Dr. Henry Lee was not allowed to be present during the initial examination of items of evidence by people in your laboratory during the month of June; isn't that correct?

7 MS. KESTLER:

If it was done in June, that's correct.

8 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. And in fact, isn't it true that the reason there was certain representatives of the Defense team present on August 26th is because the court ordered the SID to make--to give us access to be present at those testings?

9 MS. KESTLER:

I'm not aware of that. I didn't set up the search of the--are you talking about the Bronco, August 26th?

10 MR. NEUFELD:

August 26th, the Bronco.

11 MS. KESTLER:

I'm not aware of how that took place.

12 MR. NEUFELD:

Are you aware of the extent to which it required court orders from this Court to have--

13 MR. DARDEN:

Objection.

14 THE COURT:

Sustained. Sustained. Sustained.

15 MR. DARDEN:

Objection.

16 MR. NEUFELD:

You said that when you looked at stains in the Bronco, they were smeared and that was consistent with having been swatched; is that correct?

17 MS. KESTLER:

Some of them were smeared, and within that smear, there was some obvious additional smearing or rubbing and it could be, yes, it could be consistent with swatching.

18 MR. NEUFELD:

Could be consistent with swatching. It could also be consistent with someone rubbing their hand on a stain; could it not?

19 MS. KESTLER:

It could be consistent with something else. I wouldn't say rubbing your hand on it, no.

20 MR. NEUFELD:

It could be consistent with someone rubbing something else on those areas other than a swatch?

21 MS. KESTLER:

Yes. That's what I just said.

22 MR. NEUFELD:

And when you looked at those smears on the console, for instance, on August 26th, you don't know how they got there, do you?

23 MS. KESTLER:

I know that they're consistent with the previous photographs from the original search of the Bronco. They appear to be present in the same--

24 MR. NEUFELD:

I asked you if you know how they got there.

25 MS. KESTLER:

Oh, no.

26 MR. NEUFELD:

And when you looked at those smears on August 26th, you can't say when they got there, can you?

27 MS. KESTLER:

No.

28 MR. NEUFELD:

And finally, calling your attention to June 29th when you, Collin Yamauchi and Greg Matheson looked at the items of evidence in this case, you said on cross-examination, quote, "We weren't looking for blood," unquote, in reference to the socks. Is that your testimony?

29 MS. KESTLER:

That's correct.

30 MR. NEUFELD:

I don't know--your Honor, I know we marked the typed version. I don't know if we marked the handwritten version.

31 THE COURT:

I don't know if we have either. Do you want to mark that as 1321?

32 MR. NEUFELD:

I would.

33 THE COURT:

All right.

34 (Peo's 1321 for id = one page handwritten report)
35 MR. NEUFELD:

In fact, I'm only going to mark one page which is going to the page that refers to item 13.

36 THE COURT:

Fine.

37 MR. NEUFELD:

All right.

38 MR. DARDEN:

As I understand it, this item is already in evidence.

39 THE COURT:

Do you know the item number?

40 MR. DARDEN:

No.

41 THE COURT:

All right. Let's mark it 1321.

42 MR. DARDEN:

Can I see it before we put it up?

43 (Brief pause.)
44 THE COURT:

All right. Want to put it on the elmo?

45 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. Is--item 13, would that be the--that's the third item described on that document; is that right?

46 MS. KESTLER:

Yes.

47 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay.

48 MR. NEUFELD:

Now, what I would like you to do, Mr. Harris, is could you please focus in on the comment box for item 13, the whole box on that and blow it up as much as you can.

49 MR. NEUFELD:

You said I believe on cross-examination, quote, "We weren't looking for blood with reference to item 13." Is that your testimony?

50 MS. KESTLER:

Right. We weren't searching for blood, yes.

51 MR. NEUFELD:

Do you see where it says "None obvious"?

52 MS. KESTLER:

Right.

53 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. That means that there was no blood obvious, correct?

54 MS. KESTLER:

That means that I was sitting from here to approximately where your Honor is sitting (Indicating), and to me there was none obvious.

55 THE COURT:

Five feet.

56 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay.

57 MS. KESTLER:

Thank you.

58 MR. NEUFELD:

And where was Mr. Matheson sitting at this time?

59 MS. KESTLER:

Uh, probably within about--oh, I don't recall. I would guess within a couple of feet, you know, in front of him like here (Indicating).

60 MR. NEUFELD:

Okay. And Mr. Yamauchi, he was the person who was actually removing the items of evidence from their packaging so that they could be looked at; isn't that correct?

61 MS. KESTLER:

I think so, yes. I'm not absolutely positive.

62 MR. NEUFELD:

Well, when you went like this (Indicating), were you indicating that he and Mr. Matheson were taking turns doing that?

63 MS. KESTLER:

I think there was some back and forth handling of the evidence.

64 MR. NEUFELD:

And they were sitting at a conference table that's in your office; is that correct?

65 MS. KESTLER:

That's correct.

66 MR. NEUFELD:

And the items were being placed on that conference table in front of them; is that correct?

67 MS. KESTLER:

That's correct.

68 MR. NEUFELD:

And when they say "None obvious," that's referring to blood; is it correct?

69 MS. KESTLER:

Yes.

70 MR. NEUFELD:

And the words "Blood search," those are the words that appear for item 13 in the comment column, correct?

71 MS. KESTLER:

Yes.

72 MR. NEUFELD:

You weren't looking for potatoes on those socks, were you?

KEY QUOTE
73 MS. KESTLER:

The point is, we weren't looking for anything. We were determining what the--

74 MR. NEUFELD:

Your Honor, I would move to strike. I'm asking her a specific question.

75 THE COURT:

Potatoes? Well, that sort of engenders that kind of answer, counsel. All right. Ask it again.

KEY QUOTE
76 MR. NEUFELD:

You were looking--this whole examination--I'm sorry--this whole review of these items was for serological purposes, correct?

77 MS. KESTLER:

No.

78 MR. NEUFELD:

I show you I think it's 1813? 1318. I'm sorry--1318, which is titled summary of analyzed evidence by analysis performed; is that right?

79 MS. KESTLER:

Yes. And in here, you can see there's no analysis performed.

80 MR. NEUFELD:

You see that?

81 MS. KESTLER:

Yes. Under the analysis performed section, there's none done.

82 MR. NEUFELD:

So, Miss Kestler, there were many items of evidence that were looked at at this point where no analysis, no serological analysis had as yet been performed; is that correct?

83 MS. KESTLER:

Yes. And there's some that none was ever going to be done on.

84 MR. NEUFELD:

For instance, if you look on that same sheet--well, it's part of the same series.

85 MR. NEUFELD:

And I'd like to just put up another page if I may.

86 MR. DARDEN:

May I look at this?

87 MS. KESTLER:

Would you tell me which page?

88 MR. NEUFELD:

The first page.

89 MS. KESTLER:

Okay.

90 MR. DARDEN:

This exceeds the scope of my cross-examination, your Honor, items 1 through 11-C.

91 THE COURT:

May I see the sheet, please? Let me see counsel without the court reporter.

92 (A conference was held at the bench, not reported.)
93 (The following proceedings were held in open court:)
94 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Neufeld, anything else?

95 MR. NEUFELD:

Yes.

96 MR. NEUFELD:

Would you look at your copy of this handwritten report?

97 MS. KESTLER:

Yes.

98 MR. NEUFELD:

All right. Do you see, for instance, on item 30--on item 37, glove, do you see that?

99 MR. DARDEN:

I'm going to object, your Honor.

100 THE COURT:

Sustained. Exceeds the scope.

101 MR. NEUFELD:

In this report, didn't you note in the comments section when you observed red stains or blood drops on certain items that you were looking at, didn't you make those notations in the comment section for other objects and other items?

102 MR. DARDEN:

Irrelevant. Exceeds the scope.

103 THE COURT:

Overruled.

104 MS. KESTLER:

If they were clearly obvious by the naked eye. This is so simple. You know, it was one of those things where the dark socks, you couldn't see anything, so we decided to search for blood later. On the gloves, the red drops were obvious.

105 MR. NEUFELD:

So what you're saying is that when you did see blood, you did note the presence of blood in the comment box next to the item; is that correct?

106 MS. KESTLER:

If it was obvious.

107 MR. NEUFELD:

You noted it?

108 MS. KESTLER:

Yeah.

109 MR. NEUFELD:

And for this one--

110 MR. NEUFELD:

Just blow that up.

111 MR. NEUFELD:

And for this one, what you noted in the comment box was simply "Blood search, none obvious," and that's the only thing it says in that box other than "Dress socks"; isn't that correct?

112 MR. DARDEN:

Objection. Asked and answered.

113 THE COURT:

I assume this is the last time that we're--

114 MR. NEUFELD:

This is the last question.

115 MR. NEUFELD:

It doesn't say anything else in that box, does it?

116 MS. KESTLER:

No. It says we're going to do a blood search and that there was none obvious.

117 MR. NEUFELD:

Miss Kestler, you're telling us that it says, "We are going to do a blood search." Where does it say in that box, "We are going to do"? Could you please point that out in the box?

KEY QUOTE
118 THE COURT:

Argumentative, counsel. Counsel, it's argumentative. We've gone over this. It's obvious. The jury can read what's there.

119 MR. NEUFELD:

Thank you. No further questions.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Michele Kestler
If it was obvious. This is so simple. You know, it was one of those things where the dark socks, you couldn't see anything, so we decided to search for blood later. On the gloves, the red drops were obvious.
Kestler's frustrated explanation of why blood was noted on gloves but not socks inadvertently concedes the socks were examined under conditions where blood could have been missed.
Peter Neufeld
You weren't looking for potatoes on those socks, were you?
Neufeld's sarcastic attempt to force a concession that the exam was blood-focused; backfired and drew a rebuke from Ito.
Lance A. Ito
Potatoes? Well, that sort of engenders that kind of answer, counsel.
Ito's dry rebuke of Neufeld's rhetorical overreach, one of the few light moments in an otherwise tense examination.
Peter Neufeld
Miss Kestler, you're telling us that it says, 'We are going to do a blood search.' Where does it say in that box, 'We are going to do'? Could you please point that out in the box?
Neufeld catches Kestler paraphrasing and adding language not present in the written record, forcing Ito to cut him off as argumentative while the point landed.

Evidence (3)

People's 1321
One-page handwritten report, specifically the page referring to item 13 (dress socks)
Marked for identification and displayed on the Elmo
People's 1318
Summary of analyzed evidence by analysis performed
Referenced to show no serological analysis had been performed on certain items
Informal
Original Bronco search photographs showing blood smears
Referenced by Kestler to argue smears observed August 26th were consistent with earlier photos

Notable Exchanges (3)

Peter NeufeldMichele KestlerLance A. Ito
Neufeld asked whether Kestler was looking for potatoes on the socks; Kestler began explaining her reasoning; Neufeld moved to strike her answer; Ito noted the question 'engenders that kind of answer' and told Neufeld to rephrase.
heated
Peter NeufeldMichele Kestler
Neufeld walked Kestler through the comment box for item 13, which read 'Blood search, none obvious,' and pressed her to locate in the box where it said 'we are going to do a blood search' — language she had volunteered in her answer.
revealing
Peter NeufeldLance A. Ito
At the end, Ito cut off Neufeld's final press as argumentative, saying 'The jury can read what's there' — effectively closing the exchange in a way that left the document's plain language to speak for itself.
strategic

Light Moments (2)

Lance A. Ito
Ito measured the distance Kestler indicated with her gesture — 'Five feet' — drawing a thanks from the witness.
Lance A. Ito
Ito's dry observation that asking about potatoes 'engenders that kind of answer' after Kestler gave a rambling non-answer.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Michele Kestler
Prior inconsistent statement / document contradiction
Neufeld used the handwritten evidence log (People's 1321) to challenge Kestler's claim that they 'weren't looking for blood' on the socks — the document's own comment box read 'Blood search, none obvious,' undercutting her framing of the June 29th review as non-serological.
⚔ Michele Kestler
Verbal fabrication caught in real time
When Kestler paraphrased the comment box as saying 'we are going to do a blood search,' Neufeld immediately challenged her to point to those words in the document — they did not appear, and Ito shut down further questioning by noting the jury could read for themselves.

Witness Demeanor

(Indicating) — Kestler uses physical gestures multiple times to describe distances and seating arrangements
Kestler grows visibly frustrated during the socks comment-box exchange, saying 'This is so simple'

Objections

10 objections (5 sustained, 3 overruled)
Proceeding 7330 • 119 utterances • Defense witness
Criminal Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 AUG 16, 1995 📄 Redirect examination of Michel
AUG 16, 1995 KRT DvH TD