📄 Jury preparation — Wednesday, August 16, 1995
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C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\AUG\16\JURY-PREPARATION.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 137 of 167

Jury preparation

Date: Wednesday, August 16, 1995 • Utterances: 55
Judge Ito and counsel discuss witness scheduling after Michele Kestler's testimony, with Cochran outlining upcoming defense witnesses (McKinney, Berris from Chicago, Aguilar on fingerprints, Menzione, Weitzman, and Fuhrman) while trying to avoid jury downtime. Darden clarifies that Kestler told defense counsel she found them rude and unprofessional — not that she resented them — correcting what he saw as a mischaracterization by Neufeld. The session also touches on a potential stipulation about latent print lifts.
1 (Appearances as heretofore noted.)
2 (Janet M. Moxham, CSR no. 4855, official reporter.)
3 (Christine M. Olson, CSR no. 2378, official reporter.)
4 (The following proceedings were held in open court, out of the presence of the jury:)
5 THE COURT:

All right. Back on the record in the Simpson matter. All parties are again present. The jury is not present. Counsel, I just wanted to ask a couple of scheduling questions before we return to Michele Kestler. My recollection of some of our discussions earlier today and yesterday was that after Miss Kestler, the Defense wanted to present the testimony regarding--from Miss McKinney and related items, correct?

6 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes. I believe that is correct, your Honor. We had tried to--so we wouldn't have any down time, I had tried to arrange Mr. Weitzman, who's unavailable until the first of the week. As you may know, we're going to have this officer from Chicago, Officer Berris, the officer who recovered--it may or may not be necessary to have the officer who recovered the glass which is now out here, and the glass and the bloody towel. Then we have Menzione and then there's a fingerprint man from LAPD. As you know, Mr. Simpson's fingerprints weren't found anywhere, and we want to call Aguilar I guess his name is, Aguilar, Menzione perhaps from Chicago, Berris from Chicago. Howard Weitzman won't be available until the first of the week, and then of course we have--we pushed back Mr. Ragle. And then we have--so the next up would be Miss McKinney because she's here from North Carolina in addition to that. So that's kind of where we are. And I don't know if we'll have any downtime, but I was working over the lunch hour trying to see who else we have now. Perhaps the fingerprint person. The other people, it's going to be hard to get before the first of the week.

7 THE COURT:

I was about to say, because obviously given our late start today for reasons beyond this Court's control, we may not--I hope to at least finish Miss Kestler today. Assuming we can do that, I hate to lose any more court time with the jury since we lost an entire day yesterday. So what my inquiry is, is there anybody after Miss Kestler that we can perhaps--perhaps the Prosecution can assist you in getting available, for example, the fingerprint person or somebody like that.

8 MR. COCHRAN:

We would like to talk to Detective Lange and we would like to talk to Mr. Aguilar. The others--I just can't--I called Howard Weitzman today. He's involved in some new ventures and he won't be available if at all until the first of the week. The detective now can't come until the first of week. I think the problem with Menzione is the same. But I think with Aguilar, if we can talk to Lange, that might be helpful.

9 MS. CLARK:

I thought with Menzione, there was an admissibility issue that needed to be resolved.

10 MR. COCHRAN:

So that's--if they can help us with Lange, possibly Vannatter and Aguilar I would think and then we'll--and we have the McKinney matter.

11 THE COURT:

Okay. Because, as I indicated to you, I think the soonest that I will be able to review the materials on the McKinney issue will be by Monday morning. So--

12 MR. DARDEN:

We're going to need until Monday morning I think to file a response.

13 THE COURT:

No. I understand that. I understand that.

14 MR. DARDEN:

The fingerprint--

15 MR. COCHRAN:

We want--we do want Fuhrman too. We asked--I asked for Fuhrman yesterday. So we want Detective Fuhrman back here. So--

16 MR. DARDEN:

What day?

17 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, depends what the Court--I suppose that Monday will be soon enough now given where we are. By Monday.

18 MS. CLARK:

May we inquire, after Michele Kestler, is it Aguilar?

19 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, if you can get Aguilar. He's an LAPD witness.

20 MR. DARDEN:

He's upstairs in my office now. If we just say when we want them, they'll--

21 MR. COCHRAN:

Okay.

22 MS. CLARK:

And after Aguilar?

23 MR. DARDEN:

Tomorrow morning. Mr. Aguilar will be here tomorrow morning.

24 MR. COCHRAN:

We might want to talk to him this afternoon. We would like if possible, if Detective Lange is in the building, Lange or Vannatter, to talk to them this afternoon, which might save some time. We have a couple of questions to ask them. We can talk to them, and we might save time. And I think that's--

25 THE COURT:

Are they available or think you can talk to them over the next break?

26 MR. DARDEN:

They're upstairs eating donuts as I understand it right now, your Honor. So if someone wants to talk to them, we'll have them come down.

KEY QUOTE
27 MR. COCHRAN:

We would like to talk to them if we can.

28 THE COURT:

Okay. Then you can chat with them at the break and see if we can--

29 MR. COCHRAN:

Lange, Vannatter and Aguilar. But we still wouldn't have enough to fill the day if that's your question. Don't you have to listen to the tapes anyway?

30 THE COURT:

I have to. But the problem is, I can do that on my own time.

31 MR. COCHRAN:

Yes.

32 THE COURT:

I'm concerned about putting the jury on ice again.

33 MR. COCHRAN:

Sure.

34 THE COURT:

And, you know, as I expressed to you this morning, I'm concerned about the durability of this jury.

35 MR. COCHRAN:

And we are too, your Honor. Let's proceed with Miss Kestler. Let me look at our list and let's see where we get today and let me talk to you back about it at the end of the day. Because it's important also, we want that brief for you. There's a number of things, as you always say, Judge, we've got a lot of things that are coming together all at once.

36 THE COURT:

But you got a lot of lawyers too.

37 MR. COCHRAN:

Well, yes. But they can only do so much, but we're going to get it done.

38 THE COURT:

Well, I seem to manage to stay up with you. So--

39 MR. COCHRAN:

You do, Judge, and you should be complimented for that. I was particularly impressed with all those transcripts you had out in there. Did you put them all back now?

40 THE COURT:

Nope. I was packing them up. All right.

41 MR. DARDEN:

Your Honor, one additional issue if I may.

42 THE COURT:

Yes. Mr. Darden.

43 MR. DARDEN:

This morning when Mr. Neufeld asked the Court's permission to declare Miss Kestler an adverse witness, she has indicated to me that during that July 13 conversation with Defense counsel, she did not tell them that she resented them. In fact, she told them the exact opposite. She did, however, tell counsel that she realized that they were only doing their job, but, however, she felt that at times, she thought they were rude and unprofessional in their demeanor and in the manner that they treated witnesses as I understand it, but she specifically told them she didn't resent them and that she understood that they were only doing their jobs as Defense attorneys. So I'd like to clear the record on that issue.

44 THE COURT:

All right. But as I indicated to Mr. Neufeld, that if we get to the point where he feels that's appropriate, then he needs to approach first. But--and I also indicated I'd allow some leeway in use of leading questions for foundational purposes and getting to particular locations because that seemed to be the problem in getting to specific dates and times. All right. Let's have the jury, please.

45 MR. DARDEN:

Is it okay we use the phone to make sure Mr. Aguilar can be here at 9:00 o'clock?

46 THE COURT:

Yes.

47 MR. DARDEN:

What time will you be taking a break for Lange and Vannatter to come down?

48 THE COURT:

3:30ish.

49 MS. CLARK:

The Defense was requesting a stipulation of us concerning the latent print lifts, and I had indicated that if they would put it in writing, I probably would. But I haven't seen anything as yet. So I wanted to take the opportunity to remind the Defense to give me something in writing.

50 THE COURT:

Okay. Miss Clark is indicating a willingness to stipulate to the latent print issues. So perhaps--

51 MR. COCHRAN:

I'll be glad to talk to Miss Clark about it. Let me ask another question too. May I?

52 THE COURT:

Be my guest.

53 MR. DOUGLAS:

We talked about a foundational issue, but I think we still need--

54 MS. CLARK:

I talked to Carl Douglas about this last week, and he indicated to me that he wanted me to stipulate to people who lifted the prints. I said, yes, just put it in writing, let me see what you want. That's all I'm asking.

55 MR. COCHRAN:

Just foundational.

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Christopher Darden
They're upstairs eating donuts as I understand it right now, your Honor.
Darden's casual remark about Lange and Vannatter being in the building — a rare moment of levity in an otherwise procedural discussion.
Lance A. Ito
I'm concerned about the durability of this jury.
The judge signals real anxiety about the jury's cohesion after losing an entire court day, foreshadowing later jury management issues.
Christopher Darden
She did not tell them that she resented them. In fact, she told them the exact opposite... she thought they were rude and unprofessional in their demeanor and in the manner that they treated witnesses.
Darden attempts to rehabilitate Kestler pre-emptively by clarifying the distinction between resentment and a professional critique of defense conduct.
Johnnie Cochran
As you may know, we're going to have this officer from Chicago, Officer Berris, the officer who recovered--it may or may not be necessary to have the officer who recovered the glass which is now out here, and the glass and the bloody towel.
Cochran references physical evidence recovered in Chicago — connecting to OJ's trip there after the murders — as part of the defense case.

Evidence (4)

Informal
Glass recovered in Chicago by Officer Berris
discussed as upcoming exhibit
Informal
Bloody towel from Chicago
discussed as upcoming exhibit
Informal
Latent print lifts (fingerprint evidence — Simpson's prints not found at scene)
stipulation being negotiated between Clark and Douglas
Informal
McKinney tapes
referenced as pending admissibility ruling by Monday

Notable Exchanges (3)

Christopher DardenLance A. Ito
Darden corrects the record on Kestler's July 13 conversation with defense counsel, distinguishing between resentment (which she denied) and finding them rude and unprofessional (which she did say).
strategic
Johnnie CochranLance A. Ito
Light back-and-forth about staying on top of the caseload — Cochran compliments the judge on reviewing transcripts, Ito jokes that he manages to keep up despite the defense's large team of lawyers.
collegial
Marcia ClarkCarl DouglasJohnnie Cochran
Clark flags that she's willing to stipulate to the latent print chain of custody but is waiting for a written request from defense, which Douglas had promised the prior week.
procedural

Light Moments (3)

Christopher Darden
Darden remarks that Lange and Vannatter are 'upstairs eating donuts' when asked if they're available to meet with defense counsel at the break.
Lance A. Ito
Ito and Cochran exchange compliments about workload management — Cochran praises the judge for reviewing all the transcripts, Ito quips 'Nope. I was packing them up.'
Lance A. Ito
Ito notes Cochran has 'a lot of lawyers too' when Cochran complains about the volume of work, prompting Cochran to concede 'they can only do so much.'

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Michele Kestler
prior statement clarification / record correction
Darden clarifies that Kestler's July 13 statement to defense counsel was that she found them rude and unprofessional — not that she resented them — apparently pushing back on how Neufeld had characterized the statement when seeking to declare her an adverse witness.

Objections

None recorded
Proceeding 7339 • 55 utterances
Criminal Trial
Department 103
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📂 AUG 16, 1995 📄 Jury preparation
AUG 16, 1995 KRT DvH TD