All right. We're back in chambers with Mr. Cochran, Mr. Shapiro, Mr. Neufeld, Mr. Douglas, Mr. Blasier, Mr. Scheck; also with Miss Clark and Mr. Hodgman and Mr. Darden. Counsel, you've had some time to contemplate the conflict issue that appears before the Court, the 171.1(A)(1) problem, and the Court has proposed a tentative--shared with you a tentative ruling, and I would like your thoughts.
I think that it's--that the issue as to whether or not Captain York will be a material witness can't really be resolved by anyone until it's determined what if any of the tapes come in or in what manner the evidence comes in.
The reason--I don't ask you a rhetorical question. I ask because, you know, having not heard them or read the transcripts, I don't have a flavor for what it is and why you would say that.
Yeah. And I appreciate that. The reason is, there are various ways that you could go in the presentation of the evidence of the tapes depending on what the Court thinks is admissible, what's relevant. In my opinion, you already know my opinion on them. I think they're largely irrelevant to the issues. Whatever we may think of the statements made in them, even if it is assumed that he's speaking in his own voice and not as a character or attempting to embellish to give material for a script, whatever you assume, if the tapes are played, then the issue of the exaggeration and role playing will be squarely framed for the jury in which case--
Are there any other examples? I mean, would this be a cumulative example or a prime example of exaggeration or embellishment?
Wait, wait, wait. With Captain York? It would be a good example. It's the only example we would have really where there is a live witness who can say that's way out of line, you know, a live, credible witness that we know of at this time and that--you know, I mean, the credibility of the witness that you call to put things back in perspective is key. You know, if all we do is call another person of questionable credibility to say it didn't happen that way, then you're then--there's nothing to counter really. But you want to call somebody of greater credibility to say it's a gross exaggeration, if anything happened like that, I would have remembered it, that kind of thing. So this is probably the best way to put it in perspective. If, for example, though the tapes are not played, if there is a stipulation that Mark Fuhrman back in `85 through `87 used the word, then what's the point? Then that would not be proper rebuttal because what is she rebutting? She's not going to be able to say anything in that regard. So the nature of the evidence that's put before the jury, the amount, the degree, the kinds of incidents that are put before the jury are going to in large part determine whether or not that's appropriate rebuttal.
So your position at this point is not only would another Judge have to make the call on materiality of Captain York, but also materiality of the whole Fuhrman tape issue.
First of all, with regard to our position, we would like to argue this in open court. We're asking for an opportunity. But let me give you an idea of where we are going. I really don't think there is an issue at all. We don't want to leave this Court. We don't want to go anyplace because we are the ones--we are the proponents of this evidence. As far as the tapes go, we fought to get them here. We know what they say. We talked to Miss McKinney. First of all, these tapes are not anything about any role playing. This is real hard evidence where this man is speaking himself. That's going to be the testimony. Without going into it, the part that relates to your Honor's wife is very, very small and we propose as follows, because we don't want a mistrial in this case. We're never going to offer that. We propose that the tapes be given to you with that part redacted. It's not even relevant. It's not relevant at all to the issues here because remember yesterday, when we talked about this, there are three areas; racial animus, the propensity to implicate innocent individuals and overall category that we call credibility where he just lied about certain things. I can tell you, this man has committed perjury. The District Attorney's office can do whatever they want to do. But this is the--this is going to be the key part of this case because their star witness is caught under oath lying. These tapes prove it in his own voice and Peggy York has nothing to do with it. We all knew about Margaret York before these tapes. She has nothing to do with it. Disparaging Margaret York has nothing to do with that, none of those categories. So we would be wasting--we're not agreeing voluntarily to go anyplace else. Why should we? We don't want a mistrial. We want to go forward. This has nothing to do with anything. Our obligation was to advise you, and we're telling you what we propose to do to impeach this man. And as I mentioned to you before before we went upstairs, Captain York will never be called as a witness by us. Anyone who tries to call her, it's preposterous. It has nothing to do with anything. If they want corroboration, I'll get them corroboration, the people this police officer beat out in Hollenbeck almost to death where he had 66 counts of ADW in his packet--that was investigated--all the people he stopped. We know the people. We know the party when he talks about Tom, Tom Betriano. This will come alive for you when he talks about Commander Hickman being a dickhead and all these people over and over, all the people, you know, Commander Fricke, Chief Frankle. These are real people. These are real incidents. This is this man's view, and it's chilling and it's frightening and they have to face up to it. So it has nothing to do with Captain York, because he didn't like anybody. He doesn't like women. Captain York, to be convenient, falls in that category. That's not what we're going to be talking about. We're talking about how it relates to the Simpson case. As you said yesterday so well, let's try the Simpson case. And that's the scenario. In that scenario, it seems to me she wants to put this--I want to make sure everybody understands where we stand. We want to do this in open court and we are not agreeing to go anyplace because we don't think it's necessary.
All right. Your Honor, you can see as the issue is framed, of course, they would like to preclude rebuttal testimony. They know that Captain York would make an excellent rebuttal witness if what they are planning to do is permitted by any court. They want to give us our corroboration. They want to tell us what witnesses to call. You know, do I need to be told I'm being given a pig and a poke? Thank you very much, I know how to try my own case. Counsel wants to role play. We're not role playing. That is the issue they raised, one of the issues they framed. Let's get on to the Simpson case. I agree. You want to talk about collateral issues? That man's racial animus, as reprehensible as it is, if it is true, is another issue for another time. We can convene the mini trial of Mark Fuhrman when we are done with this case. But there's no way--your Honor, really the only point of credibility framed here is--the only point on which his credibility is in issue is that glove. Everything else is cumulative.
Johnnie Cochran gives pre-condition runs from the tapes. There's more than they're representing. It's not fair. You're being given half a loaf here. I know you are wise enough to realize that, but it's really unfair because there is an impact to all of this.
--where I lay out it is the combination in that particular incident with Kathleen Bell. It was racial animus, interracial couples, willingness to fabricate. It was those three things that got that admissible. So I don't know what's on the tapes. I don't know what we're talking about here.
So--but at this point, since obviously we're not going to agree, we'll need to put this on the record in open court in front of Mr. Simpson, and I think the only alternative that I have before me at this point is to send it out for a hearing.
Counsel is saying they're never going to call Captain York. Of course they're not going to call an adverse witness.
It's very unfair for counsel to say we're not willing to frame this issue, but we have to try our case too. And I did go back over the Court's ruling very carefully and I understood the Court to rule that certain things had to be shown. But there is one key thing that has never been shown that is the one thing that had to be shown to make this relevant. That is an opportunity to do what they're saying they did, and that's the only relevance for this racial animus evidence; is did he plant the glove. He couldn't have planted the glove. The proof has been demonstrable. It was very clear and uncontroverted in this courtroom. There was one glove at this crime scene. He never could have had access to the other. So what is the relevance of any of this? You know, I'm not saying that we want to sweep it under the rug or we want to paint him like this golden knight and shining hero. We don't.
But we want to try the Simpson case. We want to put on the evidence that's--we're searching for the truth, Judge. The truth we are searching for here is who committed these murders, not whether Mark Fuhrman is a racist. That's a separate issue for another time perhaps, maybe an IAD investigation. I understand he's retired. But the bottom line is not him. It's this evidence, who committed this murder. And the evidence is very clear, concrete that there was no planting of any glove. The Defense can't get around that. All they want to do is put on evidence to inflame the jury so they'll forget about the evidence in this case and go ahead and vote emotionally. I hope their very cynical view of this jury is proven wrong and that the jury will rise to the occasion and say, "No, we're going to look at the evidence" and realize that all of this stuff with the tapes has no relevance to this case whatsoever. It is a very shrewd, cynical and cold-eyed effort to make sure that the jury never looks at the case. That's all this is.
May we proceed? Without wasting a lot of time here, the only people we have to convince are the 12 people over there. Let me conclude by saying this so that you know. On the tapes, contrary to what Miss Clark says, on July 28th, 1994, Mark Fuhrman says, "I am the key witness in the trial of the century. They know it. If I go down, their case goes down," and he says, "Bye-bye."
That's what he says. We want to see what the jury says about that. Can we put this on the record, please?
All right. But given our non-agreement on what ought to occur, I'm going to send it out.
You know, your Honor, you heard her the other day when she was opposing these tapes before you tell me to shut up when I pointed out that she should just stop. She has quoted from my bar card. She has called me without a brain. I have been completely civil to her and she should just stop it.
On July 28th, 1994, Mark Fuhrman says, 'I am the key witness in the trial of the century. They know it. If I go down, their case goes down,' and he says, 'Bye-bye.'
This is going to be the key part of this case because their star witness is caught under oath lying. These tapes prove it in his own voice.
That man's racial animus, as reprehensible as it is, if it is true, is another issue for another time. We can convene the mini trial of Mark Fuhrman when we are done with this case.
It is a very shrewd, cynical and cold-eyed effort to make sure that the jury never looks at the case. That's all this is.
She has quoted from my bar card. She has called me without a brain. I have been completely civil to her and she should just stop it.