📄 Sidebar (2) — Monday, April 17, 1995
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CRIMINAL\1995\APR\17\SIDEBAR-2-.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 58 of 167

Sidebar (2)

Date: Monday, April 17, 1995 • Utterances: 32
A sidebar in the civil trial where Clark complained about Neufeld making audible comments to influence the jury, and Goldberg argued that his expert witness should be allowed to reference Dr. Saferstein's televised interview (on Geraldo) as a basis for opinions on evidence handling. Judge Ito sustained the objection, ruling that TV appearances don't qualify under the publication exception to hearsay rules.
1 (The following proceedings were held at the bench:)
2 MS. CLARK:

Your Honor, I'm going to--just before you begin, Mr. Scheck--

3 THE COURT:

Hold on. Hold on.

4 MS. CLARK:

I am sorry.

5 THE COURT:

Miss Clark.

6 MS. CLARK:

I'm going to ask the Court to admonish Mr. Neufeld from making loud repeated comments concerning the objections and the questions being asked by Mr. Goldberg. He does it audibly so that the jury can hear every word in response to every ruling and every remark made by his cocounsel, Mr. Scheck, and in response to any questioning that may be objected to by Mr. Scheck, and I think it's highly inappropriate and obviously done for the purpose of influencing the jury. And they can hear it obviously, your Honor, because I can hear every word and it's said very loudly while he's facing them.

7 THE COURT:

Mr. Goldberg.

8 MR. GOLDBERG:

On that issue, your Honor?

9 THE COURT:

No.

10 MR. GOLDBERG:

As to this witness' testimony, he is allowed to rely on opinions of other experts. He is allowed to rely on anything that is of the nature that would be relied on by experts in this field, and Dr. Saferstein has said you do not have to use paper, you can use plastic.

11 THE COURT:

Where has Dr. Saferstein said that? Where is this recorded?

12 MR. GOLDBERG:

Well, he said it in a number of recorded interviews that this witness has seen.

13 MR. SCHECK:

Your Honor, apparently Dr. Saferstein was interviewed on I think Geraldo or something. I haven't seen the interview. I only heard of it. But it seems the key issue here is substance. If they want to call Dr. Saferstein to say it's okay to keep samples in a plastic bag for seven hours in a truck, let them call him. But I haven't heard him say that he specifically approves of that. The text of his books speak for itself. It seems to me improper to have this witness testifying to hearsay.

14 THE COURT:

Okay. Hold on.

15 (Brief pause.)
16 THE COURT:

All right. Mr. Goldberg.

17 MR. GOLDBERG:

Yes, your Honor.

18 THE COURT:

721 allows somebody to be cross-examined and direct examined on published reports, which I don't think Geraldo qualifies as. Do you have any other exceptions that would allow hearsay by Dr. Saferstein seen on TV?

KEY QUOTE
19 MR. GOLDBERG:

How about the elmo exception to the hearsay? If we put it up on the elmo, it's not hearsay no more. Your Honor, what I would say is that an expert is allowed to rely on things that he learned in seminars or things that he learned while he was being trained at LAPD. He can talk about what his training was, how they taught him to do things. They attend seminars of the American Federation of Criminalists and the California Association of Criminalists all the time.

KEY QUOTE
20 THE COURT:

But the restriction is to publications. that's what 721 says.

21 MR. GOLDBERG:

But he's not being cross-examined. it's direct examination.

22 THE COURT:

I understand that.

23 MR. GOLDBERG:

And it's not coming in for the truth of the matter asserted, but the basis for his opinion.

24 THE COURT:

Well, certainly it's coming in for the truth of the matter.

25 MR. GOLDBERG:

No. Well, no, because I don't think expert treatise necessarily does come in for the truth of the matter. It comes in either to impeach the expert or to support his opinions, and when the expert is testifying, what his opinion is based upon.

26 MR. SCHECK:

You were offering it--if I may interrupt you just a minute--as to what the true interpretation of Saferstein's text is. So he's offering it for the truth.

27 THE COURT:

All right. I am going to sustain the objection. Mr. Cochran, would you warn Mr. Neufeld to keep his voice down. I can hear him and I've already admonished him once. If I have to admonish him again, it will be in front of the jury.

28 MR. SCHECK:

It's just that he has a deep loud voice. He's talking to me, and I'll tell him to whisper.

29 MR. COCHRAN:

I'll tell him to write notes.

30 MS. CLARK:

Mr. Scheck had already left counsel table.

31 (The following proceedings were held in open Court:)
32 THE COURT:

Thank you, counsel. Proceed.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Hank Goldberg
How about the elmo exception to the hearsay? If we put it up on the elmo, it's not hearsay no more.
A flippant attempt to find a workaround to the hearsay rule that Ito did not entertain.
Lance A. Ito
721 allows somebody to be cross-examined and direct examined on published reports, which I don't think Geraldo qualifies as.
Ito's dry, definitive ruling that a TV interview is not a published expert treatise.
Marcia Clark
He does it audibly so that the jury can hear every word in response to every ruling and every remark made by his cocounsel, Mr. Scheck, and I think it's highly inappropriate and obviously done for the purpose of influencing the jury.
Clark's allegation that Neufeld was deliberately performing for the jury.
Lance A. Ito
If I have to admonish him again, it will be in front of the jury.
Ito's escalating warning to Neufeld — the very threat Clark wanted him to make.

Evidence (2)

Informal
Dr. Saferstein's televised interview (reportedly on Geraldo) regarding use of plastic bags for evidence storage
challenged — ruled inadmissible as basis for expert opinion
Informal
Dr. Saferstein's published texts on evidence handling
referenced as the proper evidentiary vehicle under Rule 721

Notable Exchanges (3)

Hank GoldbergLance A. Ito
Goldberg attempted multiple angles to admit Saferstein's Geraldo interview — expert reliance, seminar training, 'elmo exception' — each rebuffed by Ito who held firm that Rule 721 covers publications only.
strategic, increasingly futile
Barry ScheckHank Goldberg
Scheck cut in to point out that Goldberg was offering the Saferstein statement for its truth (what the text 'really means'), undermining Goldberg's 'not for the truth of the matter' argument.
sharp, adversarial
Lance A. ItoJohnnie CochranBarry Scheck
Ito asked Cochran to warn Neufeld about his loud commentary; Scheck deflected by blaming Neufeld's natural voice, and Cochran quipped he'd tell him to write notes instead.
light, diplomatic deflection

Light Moments (2)

Hank Goldberg
Goldberg proposed the 'elmo exception to the hearsay' — if you put something on the projector, it's no longer hearsay — delivered apparently with a straight face.
Johnnie Cochran
Cochran offered to tell Neufeld to write notes rather than whisper, neatly sidestepping Ito's admonishment with a joke.

Objections

1 objections (1 sustained, 0 overruled)
Proceeding 5740 • 32 utterances
Criminal Trial
Department 103
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📂 APR 17, 1995 📄 Sidebar (2)
APR 17, 1995 KRT DvH TD