📄 Direct examination of criminalist expert — Wednesday, January 15, 1997
Address:
C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1997\JAN\15\DIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-CRIMINAL.DOC
TRIAL
▲ Day 42 of 57

Direct examination of criminalist expert

Examiner: Edward Medvene
Called by: Plaintiff • Date: Wednesday, January 15, 1997 • Utterances: 211
A plaintiff's criminalist expert with decades of forensic experience testified about alternative explanations for blood found on 'wall 3' of a sock attributed to O.J. Simpson. He described multiple innocent mechanisms — presumptive testing, perspiration, contact transfer, and cutting — that could explain the microscopic blood spheres Henry Lee and Herbert MacDonell had attributed to possible planting. He then described and displayed photographs from an experiment he performed on August 14th, cutting a piece from the sock's blood stain and observing blood flakes and spheres fall to wall 3.
1 A:

I'm a criminalist, which is a forensic scientist.

2 Q:

Could you briefly give me your scholastic background?

3 A:

I graduated University of Pittsburgh with a baccalaureate degree in biology. I took education courses at night but I do not have my teaching certificate.

4 Q:

Can you go through for us your work history?

5 A:

After leaving the university, I was a research assistant at two medical centers; at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine and then Emery University School of Medicine. Neither of these jobs had anything to do with forensics or criminalistics. They were scientific in nature. In 1965, I became a criminalist in the Pittsburgh and Allegheny crime laboratory. While at that laboratory, I worked in the trace evidence and serology sections; serology having to do with body fluids such as blood, semen, et cetera. And was on the crime lab mobile unit which processed major crime scenes in the County of Allegheny. In 1971 I became the founding director of the regional crime laboratory for northwest Missouri and eastern Kansas. This laboratory was funded in great part by the Law Enforcement Assistance Administration and I served under then Chief Clarence M. Kelly prior to him becoming director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation. In 1976 I moved to California and became the chief of the Ventura sheriff's crime laboratory. In 1980 I left government service and became a private consultant.

6 Q:

You're a private consultant now?

7 A:

Yes, I am.

8 Q:

You have any teaching experience?

9 A:

Yes. I've taught at the University of Pittsburgh graduate school of chemistry, I taught forensic chemistry, which was a graduate program that led to a Master's Degree in forensic chemistry. I've also taught at Southern Police Institute as a visiting instructor for their homicide and sex crimes schools. I lectured at police academies in the jurisdictions where I worked; Pennsylvania, Missouri, Kansas and California. I taught criminalistics, one course at Central Missouri State University in Missouri while I was there. And I guest lectured at California State L.

10 A:

in both their baccalaureate and master's program in criminalistics.

11 Q:

Have you published, sir, any articles?

12 A:

Yes, I have.

13 Q:

Approximately how many and in what publications? Just the nature of the publications.

14 A:

Well, I'm the co-author of the Crime Scene Search Physical Evidence Handbook which was published by the University -- Department of Justice. I have written the chapter on criminalistics for local government police administration textbook. I've co-authored chapters in the Legal Medicine Annual, which was a hardcopy put out back in the 70's. I've published papers in the Journal of Forensic Science the Association of an Official Analytical Chemist Journal and several monographs with my lectures have been put out for seminars.

15 Q:

Have you qualified as an expert and testified in various jurisdictions throughout the United States?

16 A:

Yes, I have.

17 Q:

As an example?

18 A:

Well, in Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Utah, Idaho, California, Kansas -- or Kansas, Missouri, Utah, Oregon, Washington State. Basically in some of those instances numerous times and sometimes only once.

19 Q:

Were you, with respect to this matter, requested to look at a particular ankle stain on a sock that had been identified as a sock of Mr. O.J. Simpson's that was found at the foot of his bed on June 13, 1994?

20 A:

I was.

21 Q:

Could you briefly tell us with respect to your assignment, what of your past history and experience deals with the kind of assignment that you undertook?

22 A:

Well, the assignment had to do with a blood stain and some observations made by Herbert MacDonell and Henry Lee. From the time I started in the laboratory in 1965, I was running blood tests, which just by their nature I had to look at blood samples, thousands of blood samples, both macroscopically, that's with the naked eye, or through a microscope. I also, in our crime scene processing -- as a matter of normal processing, we would document the scene, which would include any blood that was found at the scene. Whether it be pooled blood, blood spattered blood, it moved through the air and struck an object, or blood that was on an object due to contact. For example, a bloody palm print or hand print, if someone touched an object. So all of these areas were actually part of routine testing and examination back in 1965, when I started. In subsequent times, I have actually tried to reproduce blood flight and blood stains when there was a particular question. I've shot guns into makeshift objects with blood in them; I've kicked blood, stepped in blood, and objects -- hit objects with baseball bats, not just capriciously, but to try to reproduce a pattern to see whether it fit the reasoning that I had given to how something happened. Then I try to make it happen to show whether I was correct or not.

23 Q:

What was your understanding of the examination that you were to perform in this matter?

24 A:

Well, I was given testimony by Dr. Lee and Herbert MacDonell, which talked about some little balls of blood that was found on the subject's sock, specifically in what was called wall 3 of the sock. And this would have to do with, if you look at the sock, one outside layer of the sock would be wall 1.

25 Q:

Would it be possible to stand up, because it's confusing sometimes, with 1, 2, and 3, and just show with your hand?

26 A:

Take off my sock?

27 Q:

That would be good, too, but let's leave your ankle in the middle of it.

28 THE COURT:

You want to take off your sock?

29 THE WITNESS:

No, to -- can -- may I just stand up? (Witness indicates to sock.)

30 A:

If we just designate either outside of my sock as wall 1, we can then discuss the inside of that same fabric as Wall 2 of the sock. And then we can move to the next inner layer opposite that, and call it wall 3, and the outer layer and call it wall 4. I know you've had that testimony already, so that I'm going to be using the same designations, hopefully, so I don't have to dance again when we discuss the sock. So that -- I understood what they said they observed on wall 3. I also understood that one of the mechanisms that was suggested was that the blood could have been planted on the sock, that it was added to the sock at some time when no one was wearing the sock, and the sock may be laying, for example, flat someplace, and a drop of blood added to wall 1, which would have subsequently soaked through to Wall 2 and caused these little balls -- these microscopic balls to appear on wall -- to appear on wall 3. So my assignment was to look at this and see whether there were other mechanisms that I was able to ascertain could have done the same thing. In other words, are we stuck with one explanation, or are there others?

31 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Now, before we get into what you did, sir, was any portion of your assignment to examine what has been identified in this trial as Mr. Simpson's blood, that's on the same sock, was found on the upper part of the sock and in the toe area?

32 A:

No. I was basically -- I was specifically looking at this one problem that had arisen, for the purposes that I've explained.

33 Q:

While I believe you've answered it, but just for the record, was any part of your assignment to look at the other sock with respect to what's previously been identified as Ms. Nicole Brown's blood found on the ankle area of the other side?

34 A:

No.

35 Q:

Now, in terms of the alternative explanations, before we get to your experiment, do you agree with Mr. MacDonell, when he talked about presumptive testing, and that is a possible explanation of how blood innocently could have gotten onto wall 3?

36 MR. BAKER:

Objection. Misstates the evidence.

37 THE COURT:

Overruled.

38 A:

Yes. I agree.

39 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Can you explain how that would happen?

40 A:

If after the sock was in the laboratory environment, a criminalist were to be testing wall 1 or Wall 2 area, for example, with a swab or a Q-Tip that had liquid on it, mostly distilled water, and if any of that distilled water was in sufficient amount to go through the layer of sock, it could cause the blood already dried on the sock to hydrate, to get wet, to get gummy, and then a microscopic -- we're talking about a very, very small amount -- could transfer while in a wet condition, or at least in a gummy, damp condition, to wall 3. In my opinion, this is a mechanism which, you know, could explain what I understand they observed.

41 Q:

Mr. MacDonell was also questioned about the possibility of one perspiring in the course of an act, or even possibly a violent act, and the effect of perspiration on the blood being a possible source of what was seen on wall 3. Is that a possibility, in your opinion?

42 A:

Yes, I agree with him.

43 Q:

And how --

44 MR. BAKER:

I object. That isn't what he agreed with. They're just putting --

45 THE COURT:

Sustained.

46 MR. BAKER:

-- Mr. MacDonell to the side.

47 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) How would that occur, or how might possibly that occur?

48 A:

If there was a combination of blood on wall 1 and 2 of the sock, over some period of time, one would expect it to dry. However, if at the same time it was being mixed with perspiration, then, as long as the perspiration and the blood were wet, and if the perspiration were to continue, preventing the blood from drying, then when the socks were taken off, there could be a transfer of wet blood from the Wall 2 area to the wall 3 area, simply because it was kept hydrated. From the idea of presumptive testing, adding water is a reasonable mechanism, then perspiring, adding water, would be another possible mechanism to discuss.

49 Q:

Now, in addition to those mechanisms, are there other mechanisms, based on your experience and training, that may well have occurred in this case?

50 A:

Yes.

51 MR. BAKER:

I object, Your Honor. I'd like to lay a foundation of his dealing with socks and blood on sides 1, 2, and 3.

52 THE COURT:

Overruled.

53 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Can you tell us what those explanations are, sir.

54 A:

If anyone had blood on their hands -- for example, if they were cut and were bleeding -- then if they touched wall 3, they could transfer blood to wall 3. This would be coincidental with blood on wall 1 and 2.

55 Q:

You mean in the course of taking the sock off?

56 A:

Taking it off, handling it in any way. If an individual had blood, not necessarily their own on their hands, and this blood was tacky -- it doesn't have to be wet, like it's running -- and they touched the sock while they had this wet or tacky blood on their hands, it could account for the blood on wall 3. If an individual had other clothing that was soaked with blood or had blood in it that hadn't dried yet, they could handle that clothing, then handle the sock, and in the same manner, transfer blood to wall 3. And if an individual had wet blood on some other object of clothing, and the sock was taken off and then just touched incidentally to a part of the clothing that had blood, that could cause the transfer of blood to wall 3.

57 Q:

In your opinion, can you tell us whether or not a possible mechanism would have anything to do with a criminalist cutting a hole in wall 1 and 2?

58 A:

Yes.

59 MR. BAKER:

I'm going to object, Your Honor. I'm going to object. This was not in his deposition, Your Honor.

60 MR. MEDVENE:

Yes, it is, Your Honor. That's what he specifically was questioned about.

61 THE COURT:

Am I going have to look at the deposition? Bring it up.

62 MR. BAKER:

Rather than -- rather than -- just go ahead. I really don't -- doesn't matter.

63 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Could you tell us how that could occur?

64 A:

If the sock had a blood stain that was on wall 1, soaked through to Wall 2, and no blood whatsoever on wall 3, if someone were to cut -- and this is now dry; this is in a laboratory environment -- when someone would cut segments of the blood stain out, that would mean wall 1 and 2, that the mere physical cutting could easily -- and I would -- what I would expect to have dislodged the crust of blood from Wall 2 while the cutting procedure is going on, falling by gravity from the laying on a bench, and wall 3 is under Wall 2, just by gravity, falling to wall 3. So in cutting out a blood stain, this is a mechanism that might explain how blood would and could get onto wall 3.

65 Q:

Did you perform any experiment to see whether or not this would happened?

66 A:

I did, to demonstrate this, yes.

67 Q:

We'll place on the TV monitor 716, what's been marked number 11 from roll 609. Do you have a blow-up? Let me show you first on the TV monitor what that is. And do you have a blow-up of that? (The instrument herein referred to as 10 page document with one photograph per page was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 716.)

68 A:

Yes. I actually, with the exception of one photograph, have blow-ups that matches the photos I gave you. And I do have a blow-up of that particular photograph.

69 Q:

Would you mark the blow-up as next in order, which is 2393, I believe.

70 THE CLERK:

Correct. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of page 1 of plaintiff's exhibit 716 was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2393.)

71 THE WITNESS:

I've put 2393 on the back of that photograph.

72 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) All right. Sir, I had asked you if you had performed any experiment of any kind. And do you recognize that photo?

73 A:

Yes.

74 Q:

And what is that photo? What does that photo represent?

75 A:

The evidence that was brought to my laboratory, namely, these socks. The photograph shows some of the packaging material that came with it. And then I just laid the socks on some clean, white paper, and took a photograph, to just show those are the socks.

76 Q:

Is it your understanding those were Mr. Simpson's socks found at the foot of his bed on June 13, 1994?

77 A:

Yes.

78 Q:

Now, on August 14th of this year, did you perform an examination?

79 A:

Yes, I did.

80 Q:

And where was that examination performed?

81 A:

In my laboratory.

82 Q:

And where is that?

83 A:

Altadena, California.

84 Q:

And who else was present?

85 A:

Two people were present at the beginning: A criminalist by the name of Mary Pierce, and a criminalist by the name of John Riegal.

86 Q:

And who was Mary Pierce, as you understand it?

87 A:

Mary Pierce was the woman in charge of bringing the evidence to my laboratory, maintaining the custody of the evidence, and also observing my handling of the evidence. And she had the right, if she thought I was doing anything that wasn't correct, to stop me at any time.

88 Q:

And who was Mr. Riegal, to your knowledge?

89 A:

Mr. Riegal was working for the defense in this case, and he's the former director of the Orange County Crime Laboratory.

90 Q:

All right, sir. Let me place on the TV, 716 number 12, if I might, which comes from roll 609.

91 THE CLERK:

For the record, quickly, Exhibit 716 is a 16-page document. We're now on page 2.

92 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) And if you would be good enough -- do you have a blow-up of that? Could we put that on the board, please -- on the TV screen. (Exhibit is displayed. Do you have a blow-up of that?

93 A:

Yes.

94 Q:

Can you mark that 2394. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of page 2 of plaintiff's exhibit 716 was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2394.) (Witness places exhibit number on back of Exhibit 2394.)

95 THE WITNESS:

Okay. If he's done, so --

96 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) What is 2394?

97 A:

That was identified to me as the subject ankle stain in this case.

98 Q:

Is this one of the socks that we just looked at, and the ankle stain on that particular sock?

99 A:

Yes.

100 Q:

And what do -- are we seeing when we're looking there through -- can you orient the jury?

101 A:

Yes. You can see the sock; you can see a marking with the white arrow that would be written on what would be side 1, wall 1, as you look through the hole with the cut-out.

102 Q:

You can see what we've talked about as wall 3? (Mr. Medvene indicates to Elmo screen.)

103 A:

Yes, that would be wall 3.

104 Q:

Now, first off, did you observe anything around the cut-out portion of this sock?

105 A:

Yes. There is a border of blood that is located around the border of the cut-out.

106 Q:

Can you point to that?

107 A:

You're not going to see it with the naked eye; you have to see it microscopically. But it's a -- you know, it's very difficult to see, even with the photograph and the light.

108 MR. MEDVENE:

Can you pull it up closer to see if we can see?

109 THE WITNESS:

You've actually blown it up too far.

110 (Adjusts Elmo.)
111 THE WITNESS:

There we go.

112 A:

The area would be around the outside of the sock. And you'll see in a minute that I removed a piece.

113 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Okay. Now, what did you -- what experiment did you have in mind? And then tell us what you did.

114 A:

Well, I wanted to be able to see or demonstrate that if you have -- if you had a wall 1 area with blood on it --

115 Q:

And we're talking about the wall 1 area with blood on it. You told us a moment ago this wall 1 and 2 was cut out, so we're talking about some -- this so-called halo, or peripheral area?

116 A:

Yes.

117 Q:

And we're calling that wall 1 for this purpose?

118 A:

That's correct.

119 Q:

Okay. Go ahead.

120 A:

If I cut a piece of that stain out, I want to be able to demonstrate, just by cutting a piece out, where the blood, in a form of both flakes and ball-like blood, would fall to wall 3. And so I did so.

121 Q:

So you cut a piece out?

122 A:

Yes.

123 MR. MEDVENE:

I'm going to ask it to -- we put on the board 716, what's marked C, or -- excuse me. 716, number 17. And if you have a blow-up of that, I'd ask if you would mark that 2395.

124 THE WITNESS:

I've done so. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of page 3 of plaintiff's exhibit 716, was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2395.) (Plaintiffs' Exhibit 2395 displayed on the Elmo screen.)

125 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) What's that?

126 A:

I took my scissors and I cut a rectangle out of wall 1 and removed it from the sock. And that just shows a photograph of the piece that I cut out.

127 Q:

Could you please put that back.

128 THE COURT:

Excuse me just a second. (Pause in proceedings.)

129 THE COURT:

Did you change the numbering on the exhibits?

130 MR. MEDVENE:

All the pictures that are being put up --

131 THE COURT:

The one you just put on the Elmo says 17.

132 MR. MEDVENE:

It was part of 716 Your Honor, 716, or a series of photos. And we're marking certain of them. And the ones we're marking, we also have blow-ups that we're giving alternative markings.

133 THE COURT:

You're giving us different numbers?

134 THE CLERK:

I thought you referred to it as number 17.

135 THE WITNESS:

No. I'm sorry. 716.

136 THE CLERK:

Correct on the back.

137 MR. MEDVENE:

On the back of them --

138 MR. FOSTER:

A negative number and a roll number.

139 MR. MEDVENE:

For example, then, on the first one of the two socks, the number is 11 on the back. And I could do it at the recess, if you want, and it's from roll 609.

140 THE CLERK:

That's right; that's what we have.

141 MR. MEDVENE:

The second one, 2394, which is the photo of the cut-out portion of the sock, on the back, there's a number 12.

142 THE CLERK:

Correct.

143 MR. MEDVENE:

That's roll 609. That's 2394.

144 THE CLERK:

Correct.

145 MR. MEDVENE:

The third one -- the third one, which we're marking 2395, is number 17 on the back. And that's from roll 604.

146 THE CLERK:

Can you put that up?

147 MR. FOSTER:

That's what confused you, that number 15 here, from 69.

148 MR. MEDVENE:

Oh I see. Okay. I see what confused you. I apologize. There's certain ones we've taken out. The third exhibit, that we're going to call 2395, is number 15.

149 THE COURT:

Now we're okay?

150 THE CLERK:

Yes.

151 MR. MEDVENE:

Okay. I apologize. I took out a couple exhibits.

152 THE CLERK:

Okay. Thank you.

153 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Can you show us, sir -- I've put back up 2394, which was the sock that you originally given with the cut-out that was already there, and the cut-out that you just identified, that we marked as 2395, that he had that little picture of -- could you point out where on that sock you cut that out from?

154 A:

Yes. In fact, I cut it out in the area I'm pointing to (indicating), and I laid it up on the sock so you could see the cut-out adjacent to the area that it was cut out of. So if you look close, you may not have noticed earlier, but that rectangular piece is sitting on top of the sock, and it came from that area that I've just circled with my pen. (Indicating.)

155 Q:

Now, after the -- after you cut out that piece, what did you next do as part of the experiment you were trying to do to see if there was an alternative mechanism to explain, in effect, what Mr. MacDonell saw on wall 3?

156 A:

I microscopically examined wall 3. I had looked at wall 3 earlier and found some blood present on wall 3 at the time I examined it.

157 Q:

When you say you found some blood, in other words, in the place where Mr. MacDonell testified he saw these blood drops -- Dr. Lee, you saw no blood?

158 MR. BAKER:

I object, Your Honor. They said they saw them right in the center of the cut-out area, not over in the halo area. That question --

159 THE COURT:

Excuse me just a minute.

160 MR. MEDVENE:

Did you --

161 THE COURT:

Wait a minute.

162 MR. MEDVENE:

I'll restate the question.

163 THE COURT:

All right.

164 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) Could you describe for us where you looked and what you saw before you did your experiment?

165 A:

Yes. I examined the entire area of wall 3 that would be circumscribed by the cut-out, and found no evidence at that time of any blood on wall 3.

KEY QUOTE
166 Q:

And that includes the center of the cut-out that Mr. Baker was just making reference to?

167 A:

Yes.

168 Q:

Now, what possible explanation is there, in terms of your background and expertise, in terms of why you did not see it?

169 A:

Well, I'm assuming it was there; therefore, it's been removed. It might have fallen off. I really don't know. I mean, it's not there when I look, and I can't attest to some prior handling of this garment.

170 Q:

Okay. It was possibly there and fell off?

171 A:

Yes.

172 Q:

Now, can you then tell us what you did as part of your experiment -- you told us you cut off that piece -- and then what did you do?

173 A:

I then reexamined wall 3, the area that would have been opened, and under where I did my cutting, and I found that there were numerous flakes, or what we call crusts of blood present. Some of them were spherical; some of them were crusts -- crusty, as opposed to being round, polished looking. They were more like the -- like corn flakes. That is not uncommon when blood gets broken up and dries. You have spheres; you also have flakes, if you will. And I also found that there were bits of fiber with blood on them that had also fallen when I cut, that were present on wall 3. So I took some photographs to illustrate what I was looking at through the microscope.

KEY QUOTE
174 MR. MEDVENE:

I would ask to put up on the TV monitor next, three photos. One, that 716 on the back, you'll see 1-A, and that's from roll 608. And would you mark that, please, 2396. Would you mark your blow-up.

175 THE WITNESS:

I've done so. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of page 4 of plaintiff's exhibit 716, was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2396.)

176 MR. MEDVENE:

Next, 716 on the back is 11-A; that's from roll 608. And would you mark that, please, 2397. That's your blow-up. And the third is 16-A from 716. Would you mark that 2398.

177 THE WITNESS:

2397 and 98. I've done so. (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of page 5 of plaintiff's exhibit 716, was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2397.) (The instrument herein referred to as Photograph of page 6 of plaintiff's exhibit 716, was marked for identification as Plaintiffs' Exhibit No. 2398.)

178 MR. MEDVENE:

Right. Would you put up on the TV screen, please, the 716 1-A, which is also 2396.

179 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) And can you describe what's depicted on that photograph?

180 A:

May I step down?

181 Q:

Yes, sir.

182 A:

The photograph is specifically focusing in on several flakes of blood, but one in particular, which is rounded and is sitting in an area of some fibers. It almost has an arch at some point in time. It was on a thread. And then when it was cut, it broke off and fell to wall 3. There also are some little blood flakes, but flakes -- but this is, in particular the larger one, that was focusing in on, this was taken through a microscope with a camera, to show -- try to show the type of rounded, spherical, polished blood flake that fell to -- to wall 3.

183 Q:

Do you have a blow-up of that?

184 A:

Yes.

185 MR. MEDVENE:

Your Honor, may I pass that on around to the jury?

186 THE COURT:

Okay. (Exhibit 2396 is passed to the jury.)

187 MR. MEDVENE:

Now, while that's happening, could you put up, please, the next photo. (Exhibit 2397 is displayed on the Elmo screen.)

188 MR. MEDVENE:

That's 716 11-

189 A:

And we've also marked as -- we've marked the blow-up 2397.

190 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) What does that depict?

191 A:

Once again, looking at wall 3, there are rounded blood particles that can be seen in various locations, and there's a fiber, not a thread, but a fiber, that has blood on it, that appears to be part of -- a lengthy part of the wall of the sock. But, in fact, upon manipulation, you could find that it was just a small segment that was not part of wall 3. But I had to manipulate it to see that it wasn't. Under the microscope, it looks like it's part of wall 3. It's kind of intertwined with some of the other fibrils basically showing once again, that blood that, at least in my opinion, can be described as spherical, rounded and some flakes on wall 3 after the cutting.

192 MR. MEDVENE:

May I have that photo. Again, may I? (Counsel hands Exhibit 2397 to the jury.

193 Q:

Let's go, if we could to the third photo of this series, which we've marked 16-A -- it's 16-A on the back of 716. And we've also marked the enlargement 2398. We now have 16-A on the monitor. You have 2398?

194 A:

Yes.

195 Q:

Can you explain to the jury what this is?

196 A:

It's the same photograph that we've seen before, except where -- or it's the same area, except it's under higher magnification. What happens under higher magnification, it's less distinct, but it's an attempt to show the threads or fiber that bridges across, and to show that by photograph. And then I have to tell you, by looking into the microscope, unless I manipulated it, I wouldn't be able to be certain whether it was a loose fiber or a part of wall 3. And the blow-up is the same. It's really not as good visually.

197 Q:

And this is, again, the blood that got there after the cutting, as a result of cutting?

198 A:

Yes.

199 Q:

May I have that photo --

THE COURT REPORTER: What number was that, again?

200 MR. MEDVENE:

This is 2398, the blow-up. And number 716, 16-

201 A:

With the Court's permission . . . (Mr. Medvene hands Exhibit 2398 to the jury for their review.)

202 MR. MEDVENE:

Now, we're about to go to a new area. If this is a convenient time, or we can keep going --

203 THE COURT:

Let's let the jury finish looking.

204 MR. MEDVENE:

Yes, Your Honor.

205 MR. MEDVENE:

I believe the jurors have seen the exhibit.

206 THE COURT:

Ten-minute recess, ladies and gentlemen. Don't talk about the case. Don't form or express any opinions.

207 THE BAILIFF:

Quiet in the audience, please; the Judge is still on the bench. Quiet. Or you can go out to your break.

208 THE COURT:

Okay. The Court has received fax notification from the Court of Appeals that the defendant's issue for Writ of Mandate or Prohibition with regard to testimony of Richards and Bodziak regarding Flammer's photographs has been denied.

209

MR. PETROCELLI: Thank you, Your Honor. (Recess.) (Jurors resume their respective seats.)

210 MR. MEDVENE:

Thank you, Your Honor.

211 Q:

(BY MR. MEDVENE) On August 14, you told us, in your lab, under the eyes of the monitor and the defense criminologist, you did certain things. Did you make another cutting on August 14th for purposes of doing another experiment?

Temperature

procedural

Key Quotes (4)

Witness
Take off my sock?
Spontaneous humor when asked to demonstrate the sock wall layers; broke tension in a technical proceeding and earned a light moment with the jury.
Witness
I've shot guns into makeshift objects with blood in them; I've kicked blood, stepped in blood, and objects -- hit objects with baseball bats, not just capriciously, but to try to reproduce a pattern to see whether it fit the reasoning that I had given to how something happened.
Established credibility through vivid hands-on methodology, distinguishing him as an experienced experimental criminalist rather than a pure theorist.
Witness
I examined the entire area of wall 3 that would be circumscribed by the cut-out, and found no evidence at that time of any blood on wall 3.
Undercut the foundation of the planting theory — if the blood spheres Lee and MacDonell saw were there, they were gone by the time this expert examined the sock.
Witness
I then reexamined wall 3, the area that would have been opened, and under where I did my cutting, and I found that there were numerous flakes, or what we call crusts of blood present. Some of them were spherical; some of them were crusts -- crusty, as opposed to being round, polished looking. They were more like the -- like corn flakes.
Core experimental result: cutting alone generated the type of blood particles Lee and MacDonell observed, offering a non-planting explanation.

Evidence (8)

Plaintiffs' 716
16-page document containing series of photographs documenting expert's August 14 examination and cutting experiment on Simpson's sock
introduced and displayed to jury via Elmo screen
Plaintiffs' 2393
Blow-up of 716 photo 1: the two socks as received at expert's laboratory
marked and displayed
Plaintiffs' 2394
Blow-up of 716 photo 2: close-up of the subject ankle stain with existing cut-out visible
marked and displayed, used to orient jury to wall 1/2/3 structure
Plaintiffs' 2395
Blow-up of 716 photo 3: the rectangular piece expert cut from wall 1 of the sock during experiment
marked and displayed
Plaintiffs' 2396
Blow-up of 716 photo 1-A (roll 608): microscope photograph of rounded/spherical blood flake on wall 3 after cutting
marked, displayed, and passed to jury
Plaintiffs' 2397
Blow-up of 716 photo 11-A: microscope photograph showing multiple rounded blood particles and blood-covered fiber on wall 3 after cutting
marked, displayed, and passed to jury
+ 2 more

Notable Exchanges (3)

MedveneBakerCourt
Baker objected that the cutting mechanism was not in the expert's deposition; Medvene disputed this; Baker abruptly withdrew — 'Rather than -- rather than -- just go ahead. I really don't -- doesn't matter.' — suggesting Baker calculated that pressing the objection would cost more than conceding.
strategic
MedveneCourtClerk
Extended colloquy about confusing exhibit numbering — roll numbers on photo backs conflicting with sequential exhibit numbers — required Medvene to walk through each exhibit number, roll, and back-number to reconcile the record.
procedural
CourtPetrocelli
During recess, Judge Fujisaki announced that the Court of Appeals denied defendant's writ of mandate/prohibition regarding testimony of Richards and Bodziak on Flammer's photographs. Petrocelli simply said 'Thank you, Your Honor.'
strategic

Light Moments (1)

Witness
When asked to demonstrate the sock wall layers by standing up, the witness spontaneously asked 'Take off my sock?' — prompting the judge to respond 'You want to take off your sock?' before the expert clarified he just needed to stand.

Credibility Attacks (1)

⚔ Witness
Prior deposition omission
Baker objected that the cutting mechanism explanation was not in the expert's deposition; he withdrew the objection before the court could rule, suggesting the issue was either not strong or strategically unwise to press.

Witness Demeanor

(Witness indicates to sock.)
(Witness steps down to point to photographs on Elmo.)
(Witness places exhibit number on back of photograph.)

Objections

4 objections (1 sustained, 2 overruled)
Proceeding 8814 • 211 utterances • Plaintiff witness
Civil Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 JAN 15, 1997 📄 Direct examination of criminal
JAN 15, 1997 KRT DvH TD