Redirect examination of Ron Phillips (part 3)

📄 Redirect examination of Ron Phillips (part 3) — Tuesday, October 29, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\OCT\29\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-RON-PH.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 5 of 57

◀ Sidebar: Levis jacket evidence Cross-examination of Dennis Fung ▶

Witness: Det. Ronald Phillips
Examiner: Dan Leonard
Called by: Defense • Date: Tuesday, October 29, 1996 • Utterances: 469

Defense attorney Dan Leonard cross-examines Detective Ron Phillips about his observations at Bundy (confirming he never saw Fuhrman touch or manipulate the glove), the decision to go to Rockingham and go over the wall, and the sequence of events once on the property — including Kato Kaelin's initial response and the notification of O.J. Simpson in Chicago. Leonard probes whether Simpson was ever considered a suspect and challenges the absence of any photograph or collection of blood evidence on the gate latch.

# 1 (The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jury.)

# 2 MR. LEONARD:

Ready?

# 3 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

No, it won't pour, sir.

# 4 (Referring to pitcher of water.)

# 5 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

Sorry about that.

# 6 MR. LEONARD:

No problem.

# 7 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

Okay.

# 8 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) When you were out in the -- when you were standing out at Dorothy and Bundy for the -- what was it, the one hour and fifteen-minute time period, approximately?

# 9 A:

Well, 2:40 to about 4:05.

# 10 Q:

Okay. You saw everything that Mark Fuhrman did, right?

# 11 A:

He was standing in the intersection with us.

# 12 Q:

He didn't go anywhere?

# 13 A:

No, sir.

# 14 Q:

With anyone?

# 15 A:

No, sir.

# 16 Q:

Did you ever see Detective Fuhrman go anywhere with Lieutenant Spangler?

# 17 A:

When you say go anywhere with him, I don't know what you mean by go anywhere. You mean leave the area?

# 18 Q:

Yeah, leave Dorothy and Bundy and go up towards the crime scene.

# 19 A:

Well, I thought you meant left Dorothy and Bundy and left the area. I apologize.

# 20 Q:

I apologize. It was an unclear question. You're very right.

# 21 A:

No. I thought you meant did he leave that area.

No, I didn't. Lieutenant Spangler, Mark Fuhrman and I, at one time, I believe, walked up to the house north of the condo and viewed the back of Ron Goldman through the iron gate, the iron fence there.

# 22 Q:

Now, at that time -- at that time, did you see Mark Fuhrman actually touch the glove in any way?

# 23 A:

I never saw Mark Fuhrman touch the glove.

KEY QUOTE

# 24 Q:

Did you ever see him at any point manipulate the glove in any way by touching it with a pen or any other item?

# 25 A:

I never saw him do that.

I understand what you're talking about. But I never saw him do that.

# 26 Q:

Okay. You never saw it?

# 27 A:

I never saw it personally, no.

# 28 Q:

And you never saw the photograph being taken that you say was taken at what, about 7:30 or 7 o'clock in the morning?

# 29 A:

I would say somewhere around 6:45, I saw Mark Fuhrman and a photographer walking to that direction, but I never saw the actual photograph taken.

# 30 Q:

You were down at --

# 31 A:

Dorothy --

# 32 Q:

-- Dorothy and Bundy.

And they walked up Bundy, right?

# 33 A:

Well, they walked across the street and up onto the same property, to the front of 875 South Bundy. I saw him walking that way, and told the photographer that we wanted to go. And my attention was taken back to Lieutenant Spangler and Lieutenant Rodgers, and I never saw the photograph being taken.

# 34 Q:

Who else was in the immediate area of the front of the crime scene at the time the photograph was taken, sir, if anyone?

# 35 A:

I don't recall seeing anybody there.

# 36 Q:

Your memory is no one was there, right?

# 37 A:

I don't recall seeing anybody at that location other than Mark and the photographer, walking up to the front of that location.

# 38 Q:

Do you recall being aware of a flash going off from a camera?

# 39 A:

As I stated, I did not see the photograph being taken, so I did not see a flash.

# 40 Q:

And it was broad daylight when the photograph was taken, right?

# 41 A:

6:40 in the morning; yes.

# 42 Q:

No question about that in your mind, right?

# 43 A:

None.

# 44 Q:

Did you -- before you went over to Rockingham, you had a run-through first with Detective Vannatter, right?

# 45 A:

Yes.

# 46 Q:

And then again after that with Detective Lange?

# 47 A:

Yes.

# 48 Q:

When you went through the crime scene with Detective Vanatter, among other things, you showed him the glove, the blood on the gate that had been pointed out to you, right?

# 49 A:

Yes.

# 50 Q:

And you showed him the three spots that you say you saw blood on the gate, right?

# 51 A:

I showed him the bottom rung, the top rung, and the latch.

# 52 Q:

Okay. And the latch in that gate is on the far left and there's a vertical bar, correct?

# 53 A:

It's on the east side of the gate, on the inside of the property gate, and it's on the left-hand side.

# 54 Q:

All the way on the far left of the gate, right? All the way at the edge?

# 55 A:

Right. So it's a lock.

# 56 Q:

Okay. And whereabouts on the latch did you see the blood?

# 57 A:

It was underneath the latch, on the under portion of it.

# 58 Q:

Okay. And that's all the blood that was pointed out to you, those three spots; that's the only place you saw blood that was pointed out to you, right?

# 59 A:

Those three areas.

# 60 Q:

That's what you pointed out to Detective Vanatter?

# 61 A:

Yes.

# 62 Q:

That's what you pointed out to Detective Lange, right?

# 63 A:

Yes.

# 64 Q:

Again, that was pointed out to you by Officer Riske, right?

# 65 A:

Yes.

# 66 Q:

No question about that in your mind?

# 67 A:

Well, I don't know that the latch was pointed out by Officer Riske. I think Mark Fuhrman is the one that told me about that spot on the latch.

# 68 Q:

Okay.

# 69 A:

I did not hear Riske say that about the latch. Mark pointed that out and shined his flashlight on it.

# 70 Q:

Well, in any event --

# 71 A:

It was done during the initial walk-through.

# 72 Q:

Okay. But it was those three areas?

# 73 A:

That's correct.

# 74 Q:

All right. When's the last time you've seen a photograph that purports to depict the blood on the gate, sir? When was the last time you saw one of those?

# 75 A:

This morning.

# 76 Q:

Oh, you did?

# 77 A:

Yes.

# 78 Q:

Okay.

# 79 A:

I told you, that was the photograph that I saw this morning.

# 80 Q:

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were talking about the photograph over at Rockingham?

# 81 A:

No, sir.

# 82 Q:

Okay.

# 83 A:

The one at the gate.

# 84 Q:

Okay. That photograph showed that all three of the areas; is that right?

# 85 A:

I don't know if you can see them all in one photograph. I looked at the photographs of the rear gate.

# 86 Q:

Okay. And they were shown to you by some of the lawyers sitting here, right?

# 87 A:

Yes.

# 88 Q:

And that was in -- they were trying to prepare you for your testimony today, right?

# 89 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Calls for conclusion.

# 90 THE COURT:

Overruled. Well, they were trying to prepare, yeah. I'll sustain that. His state of mind, not the witness's state of mind.

# 91 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Did you understand what the purpose was for them showing you the photograph, sir, this morning? house, with the possible exception of Detective Lange.

# 92 A:

Yes.

# 93 Q:

What was that for?

# 94 A:

I asked to look at it.

# 95 Q:

Okay. In preparation for testifying, right?

# 96 A:

That's correct.

# 97 Q:

Okay. Did you make any comments to them about the photograph at that point?

# 98 A:

No comment other than I recognized it.

# 99 Q:

Did you tell them that you couldn't see the blood on the latch? Did you tell them that?

# 100 A:

There's no photograph that I know of that shows the blood on the latch.

# 101 Q:

Well, that's right because there's no photograph at all that shoes that -- is there?

# 102 A:

I said that there is no photograph that I've ever seen of the blood on the latch.

# 103 Q:

You know if the blood on the latch was ever collected, sir?

# 104 A:

I don't know what was checked at that crime scene.

# 105 Q:

No idea?

# 106 A:

I have never seen the property report or the lab reports as to what was checked at any -- either location. It was not my investigation.

# 107 Q:

Would it surprise you to learn that the blood wasn't checked on the latch, sir?

# 108 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Argumentative. Lack of foundation.

# 109 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 110 MR. LEONARD:

Withdrawn.

# 111 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Now, you've said that you went over to Rockingham for two reasons, right?

# 112 A:

I went there for one reason.

# 113 Q:

Well, you indicated to us in direct examination that when I say you, and I apologize. I'm talking about the group, you went over -- four detectives went over there, right?

# 114 A:

Yes.

# 115 Q:

And there was a dual purpose. Two of the detectives had one purpose and the two of the detectives had another purpose, right?

# 116 A:

Mark Fuhrman was coming along because I was taking with me because I was going to use him to notify Mr. Simpson to do whatever I had to do.

# 117 Q:

He was also coming because he knew how to get there?

# 118 A:

That's correct.

# 119 Q:

And you knew how to get there, but he had been there before and he told you guys that?

# 120 A:

Told us he'd been up to that residence before.

# 121 Q:

He told you he had been there because he had responded to an alleged incident over there; is that right?

# 122 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Hearsay.

# 123 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 124 MR. LEONARD:

Goes to state of mind.

# 125 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 126 MR. LEONARD:

Can we approach?

# 127 THE COURT:

No.

# 128 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) When you -- when you went over to Rockingham, Detectives Vannatter and Lange, as you've said in your direct testimony, went over there because they wanted to speak with Mr. Simpson, correct?

# 129 A:

That's what they said.

# 130 Q:

And they told you that they wanted to speak with Mr. Simpson because they wanted to know where Nicole Brown Simpson had been the night before; is that right?

# 131 A:

They wanted to introduce themselves to Mr. Simpson. Find out whatever information they could find out about the deceased and anything he may know about what happened last night. Their reasons for going there are their reasons.

# 132 Q:

Well, but you testified on direct examination --

# 133 A:

I'm telling you -- tell you --

# 134 Q:

Correct me if I'm wrong, one of the reasons they wanted to go over there, they wanted to talk to O.J. Simpson about the whereabouts of Nicole Brown Simpson the night before. Did you not say that on direct examination?

# 135 A:

Yes.

# 136 Q:

Is there any other reason that they, that they told you they were going over there? Any other reason that they wanted to speak to Mr. Simpson?

# 137 A:

Not that recall.

# 138 Q:

There could have been, but you just don't recall?

# 139 A:

That was the reasons I think they went over there, those reasons and then there may have been more.

# 140 Q:

Well, could it be that Mr. Simpson was a suspect at this time?

# 141 A:

No.

# 142 Q:

You're sure about that?

# 143 A:

I'm positive.

# 144 Q:

That thought never entered your mind, sir?

# 145 A:

It was never talked about, never entered my mind No one ever mentioned to me that he was a suspect at that time. Certainly wasn't a suspect to me.

# 146 Q:

At any point, sir, up until the time that Detective Fuhrman went over the wall at Rockingham, were you ever apprised of the fact that Detective Fuhrman had responded on two occasions to Rockingham? Were you ever apprised of that, sir?

# 147 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Lack of foundation. Relevance. Materiality.

# 148 THE COURT:

Sustained. This witness -- sustained.

What he -- whether he knew about it or not, that's irrelevant.

# 149 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Who made the decision to go over the wall?

# 150 A:

Vannatter and Lange.

# 151 Q:

Was there a discussion about why they were going over the wall?

# 152 A:

Between them?

# 153 Q:

You didn't hear any of that?

# 154 A:

I was on my cell phone, out in the middle of the street. They walked up to me and said, "we're going to go over the wall. We're going to go onto the property."

And I said, "okay."

KEY QUOTE

# 155 Q:

At that time, when you were on your cell phone, did -- Detective Fuhrman split off from the group; is that right?

# 156 A:

Right. And went over to the Bronco, yes.

# 157 Q:

He had gone around the corner from Ashford, down to the Bronco, right?

# 158 A:

Yes.

# 159 Q:

And at that time, there was a black and white there?

# 160 A:

No.

# 161 Q:

When did the back and white arrive?

# 162 A:

I called for the black and white after the blood was found on the Bronco, what appeared to be blood was found on the Bronco. I called for a black and white.

# 163 Q:

And before what? On direct examination, you were talking about going over the wall, and you said something like on direct examination.

There was some information we had that made us have some concern for the safety of individuals inside the house. Remember saying that?

# 164 A:

Yes.

# 165 Q:

And that information was an amount of blood on the Bronco, is that right, that was found by Fuhrman?

# 166 A:

That was the deciding factor that had Vannatter and Lange concerned with what was going on inside that house, yes.

# 167 Q:

And you were concerned, too, right?

# 168 A:

Sir, it wasn't my investigation. I was on the telephone, talking to different people, trying to get addresses and phone numbers and get someone contacted in the house. So I wasn't privy to a lot of the conversation between Vannatter and Lange.

# 169 Q:

That wasn't my question, sir. My question was: Were you concerned after you learned from Mr. Fuhrman that there was a small amount of blood on the -- above the door of the Bronco, that there might be some safety issues concerning individuals inside the residence?

# 170 A:

Yes.

# 171 Q:

Were you concerned about that?

# 172 A:

Yes.

# 173 Q:

And is it your testimony that at that point, you called for backup?

# 174 A:

We didn't call. We called for a black and white to come to the location to protect the Bronco.

# 175 Q:

Okay. And who did you speak to about that, the watch commander?

# 176 A:

Possibly did, through the watch commander, asked that they send a unit up. I don't recall exactly how it was done. Either over police radio or the cell phone.

# 177 Q:

You remember talking to the watch commander?

# 178 A:

Well, if I did it on the cell phone, I talked to the commander. I did it over the police radio. I talked to a dispatcher.

# 179 Q:

We have your cell phone records.

# 180 A:

I don't recall exactly which way it was done, sir.

# 181 Q:

Okay. But in any event, it's clear in your mind that the purpose of the black and white to be there was to protect the Bronco, correct?

# 182 A:

That's correct.

# 183 Q:

And it had nothing to do with door-knocking, right?

# 184 A:

They weren't, no. It had nothing to do with that.

# 185 Q:

What is door-knocking?

# 186 A:

Going up to a door and knocking on it.

# 187 Q:

You trying to be facetious?

# 188 A:

No, I'm not. You're asking what door-knocking is. I'm going up to a door and knocking on it. I'm not trying to be cute with you. It's the answer to your question.

I apologize if I've offended you. You asked me what door-knocking was.

# 189 Q:

Is door-knocking a term of art in police work, sir?

# 190 A:

It's walking up to a door, knocking on the door and trying to raise somebody.

# 191 Q:

To what end?

# 192 A:

To talk to somebody.

# 193 Q:

And it's your testimony under oath here, that those -- that you did not ask for those officers to come over to the Rockingham scene for the purpose of door-knocking. Is that your testimony, sir?

# 194 A:

That's my testimony.

# 195 Q:

In fact, there would be no reason to do any door-knocking at that point, would there, over at Rockingham?

# 196 A:

The purpose --

# 197 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Objection. Asked for, conclusion.

# 198 THE COURT:

Excuse me.

# 199 MR. MEDVENE:

It's argumentative and calls for a conclusion.

# 200 THE COURT:

Asked argumentatively. I don't know that it's an argumentative question.

# 201 MR. LEONARD:

I don't know what that means, Your Honor.

# 202 THE COURT:

It means you can ask it a little more politely.

# 203 MR. LEONARD:

Okay. I'm sorry.

# 204 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) There wasn't any reason, Officer, excuse me, Detective Phillips, for any officers to be door-knocking at that time at Rockingham; isn't that fair to say?

# 205 A:

We were going to do a door-knock. We were going to go onto the property and knock on the front door.

# 206 Q:

No.

# 207 A:

I must be completely lost with you now.

# 208 Q:

Okay. What I'm -- let me make my question very clear.

You would agree with me, would you not, that at the time that the black and white arrived -- strike that.

At the time you requested the black and white to come over to Rockingham, there would be no reason for officers to respond to Rockingham for purposes of door-knocking in the neighborhood; would you agree with that?

# 209 THE COURT:

Are you referring to him as an officer, as well?

# 210 MR. LEONARD:

I'm not talking about the black and white officers that he asked for. I apologize.

# 211 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Relevance, materiality, Your Honor.

# 212 THE COURT:

Go ahead and answer the question if you understand it.

# 213 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

You asked if they were brought there to door-knock in the neighborhood, now?

# 214 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Yes.

# 215 A:

There were no police officers brought to Rockingham that morning, at that time, to knock on doors in the neighborhood.

# 216 Q:

Again, there would be no reason to do that?

# 217 A:

At that time, no.

# 218 Q:

Okay. I apologize.

# 219 A:

Apologize?

# 220 Q:

That was a little rough.

# 221 THE COURT:

That's enough apologizing. Let's get another question.

# 222 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Do you remember the names of any of the officers in the black and white?

# 223 A:

I assume we're talking about the black and white at Rockingham.

# 224 Q:

Yeah. I'm sorry. The black and white at Rockingham.

# 225 A:

It was Officer Ashton and Officer Gonzalez.

# 226 Q:

Okay. At some point, you interviewed Officer Gonzalez; is that right?

# 227 A:

Yes.

# 228 Q:

When was that; do you know?

# 229 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Relevance, materiality, Your Honor. It's outside the scope.

# 230 MR. LEONARD:

Your Honor, if I can, I can either tell you here or tell you over there, it's to lay foundation for this document alone. I don't intend to ask him any questions.

# 231 THE COURT:

Okay. Overruled.

# 232 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Do you remember when you --

# 233 A:

I don't recall the date that I interviewed Gonzalez or Ashton.

# 234 Q:

Okay. Would it -- do you recall being asked, I think you were asked that in April of '95, did you do some interviews. Do you remember that?

# 235 A:

Was I asked that today?

# 236 Q:

Yeah. Did you do some -- Strike that.

Did you do some interviews of officers in April of '95 that were involved in the Simpson investigation?

# 237 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection.

# 238 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 239 MR. MEDVENE:

Relevance, materiality.

# 240 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 241 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

Interviewed some officers, yes. I don't know if it was April.

# 242 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) You recall being assigned to interview officers who had been involved in the Bundy and the Rockingham crime scenes, right?

# 243 A:

Yes, sir.

# 244 Q:

And that was after the criminal trial had started, right? April of -- it occurred in April of '95?

# 245 A:

I don't know when I interviewed those officers. I don't know if -- whether the trial was going on or not.

# 246 Q:

Okay.

# 247 MR. LEONARD:

May I approach?

# 248 (Counsel reviews document.)

# 249 MR. PETROCELLI:

What's the exhibit number?

# 250 MR. LEONARD:

2107.

MR. P. BAKER: It's already marked as 1800.

# 251 MR. LEONARD:

I'm sorry, pre-marked as 1800.

# 252 (The instrument described herein, Statement of Daniel Gonzalez from interview conducted by Ron Phillips, was marked Defendant's Exhibit 1800 for identification.)

# 253 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Showing you what's been marked as 1800, i ask you if you can review that. When you're finished looking at it, I want to ask you one or two questions.

# 254 A:

It's a statement of Daniel H. Gonzalez from the interview that was conducted by myself.

# 255 Q:

Okay.

# 256 A:

And it has to do with the evidence that surrounds this case.

# 257 Q:

Okay. And what's the date of that report?

# 258 A:

Doesn't have a date on it.

# 259 Q:

Is that unusual for a report not to be dated?

# 260 A:

Very unusual.

# 261 Q:

It's supposed to be dated, right?

# 262 A:

They should -- I should have dated it.

# 263 Q:

Having looked at it, does it refresh your recollection, memory, at all as to when the report was created?

# 264 A:

I don't recall exactly when I made the report. It was during the beginning sometime -- of the trial -- somewhere. And I can't give you a date.

# 265 Q:

Okay. And by the way, when you -- when you interviewed detective -- excuse me -- Officer Gonzalez, who was one of the officers in the black and white at Rockingham --

# 266 A:

Yes.

# 267 Q:

-- did you have the benefit of any other reports about Gonzalez's activities that day?

# 268 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Relevance. Hearsay. Materiality. The witness is available.

# 269 MR. LEONARD:

It's just to establish foundation. We do intend to call Officer Gonzalez in our case, and I would like not to have to recall this witness for this purpose.

# 270 MR. MEDVENE:

Out -- also outside the scope, Your Honor. This witness is available.

# 271 MR. LEONARD:

Last question on this, Your Honor.

# 272 THE COURT:

Okay. Go ahead.

# 273 MR. LEONARD:

Scout's honor.

# 274 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Did you, sir, look at anything else relating to Gonzalez, any other reports, including Gonzalez's handwritten notes with reference to his activities on that day, at the time you did this interview?

# 275 A:

We -- you just answered my own question. It wasn't -- didn't remember if he had his own handwritten notes. I guess he did. That's what I use -- would have used when I interviewed him and made that report.

# 276 Q:

So you have a memory of doing that?

# 277 A:

I thought there was some other notes that he had written, and you said there was, so I'm sure of it now.

# 278 MR. LEONARD:

Okay. While we're at it, Your Honor, may I approach?

# 279 THE COURT:

Who?

# 280 MR. LEONARD:

This guy here.

# 281 (Counsel approaches witness stand.)

# 282 THE COURT:

Go ahead.

# 283 MR. PETROCELLI:

Which exhibit?

# 284 MR. LEONARD:

It's the Thompson report.

MR. P. BAKER: Thompson report, 2104.

# 285 MR. LEONARD:

2104.

# 286 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Showing you what's been marked as 2104, and ask you if you can review that, sir, and then I will ask you some questions.

# 287 A:

This is a statement of Thompson taken by myself on April 7, 1995 at 0720 hours in the morning.

# 288 Q:

What I would -- first of all, now having read that, does that refresh your recollection as to approximately when you interviewed Gonzalez?

# 289 A:

No. It tells me when I interviewed Thompson, but I would only be guessing when I interviewed Gonzalez.

# 290 Q:

I don't want you to guess but what I would like you to do is carefully read the document and make sure that that is an accurate description of what was told to you, as best as you can remember, by Thompson.

# 291 A:

You want me to read the whole document?

# 292 Q:

No. No, read it to yourself.

# 293 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Outside the scope. The witness is available. It's also going to call for hearsay.

# 294 MR. LEONARD:

Can we go to side bar?

# 295 THE COURT:

Are you going to ask him questions about this document?

# 296 MR. LEONARD:

I'm just laying a foundation on this, a document we tried to get in before through Gonzalez -- I mean through Thompson. I just want to make --

# 297 THE COURT:

Just foundation?

# 298 MR. LEONARD:

Yes.

# 299 THE COURT:

You got it.

# 300 MR. LEONARD:

Thank you.

# 301 DET. RONALD PHILLIPS:

Okay.

# 302 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Had a chance to read it?

# 303 A:

Yes, sir.

# 304 Q:

Does that comport with your memory of what was told to you by Officer Thompson on that occasion?

# 305 A:

Yes, sir.

# 306 Q:

Okay. And the purpose of your interviewing Officer Thompson was to have him describe what he did in relation to the crime scene on the 13th. Excuse me. On the 13th; is that right?

# 307 A:

At both crime scenes, I believe.

# 308 Q:

What was the purpose?

# 309 A:

It was to straighten out -- explain better, I guess.

# 310 Q:

Okay. And you were asking him -- you asked him to tell you everything he did observe; is that right, sir?

# 311 A:

I interviewed him and put down his statements, yes.

# 312 Q:

Okay. By the way, is there anything in there about Officer Thompson observing any blood?

# 313 MR. MEDVENE:

He's clearly asking for hearsay. He knows he's asking for it, Your Honor.

# 314 MR. LEONARD:

Prior inconsistent statement.

# 315 MR. MEDVENE:

Lack of foundation.

# 316 THE COURT:

Just a minute. You want to do some impeaching? Why don't you do it on your part of the questions.

# 317 MR. LEONARD:

Your Honor, it's a prior inconsistent statement of the witness that was just here.

# 318 THE COURT:

I understand that. Just explain the side of the case.

# 319 MR. LEONARD:

I understand. May we reopen?

# 320 THE COURT:

Let's do things in order.

# 321 MR. LEONARD:

May we reopen it for this purpose only with this witness?

# 322 THE COURT:

No. Put your defense on when your time comes.

# 323 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Prior to going over to Rockingham, did you ask Officer Riske to run the plates on the jeep to try to find out an address that was registered to? Did you do that?

# 324 A:

No.

# 325 Q:

You'd have no reason to do that.

# 326 MR. MEDVENE:

Argumentative, Your Honor.

# 327 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Did you have any reason to do that at that time?

# 328 MR. MEDVENE:

Same objection.

# 329 THE COURT:

Overruled.

# 330 A:

I didn't do that.

# 331 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) You didn't have any reason to do it, right?

# 332 A:

Sir, I didn't do it. Would it be done? I didn't have a reason to do it.

# 333 Q:

Now, Detective Fuhrman went over the wall. And before that, you said that a Westec unit had arrived; is that right?

# 334 A:

Both Westec units arrived before Fuhrman went over the wall.

# 335 Q:

Okay. And how much in time, prior to Fuhrman going over the wall, did the first Westec unit arrive?

# 336 A:

Possibly about ten minutes because I had talked to him for a little bit, obtained a fence number, looked at the Bronco, made a phone call, got no answer and went over the wall.

# 337 Q:

Westec unit stayed there the whole time?

# 338 A:

He was parked in the middle of the intersection, yes.

# 339 Q:

He was parked. You indicated that he arrived and was heading up north on Rockingham?

# 340 A:

No, I didn't. I said that the first Westec officers came southbound on Rockingham. The second Westec supervisor came northbound on Rockingham.

# 341 Q:

Okay. And the first -- the first Westec units then, at the time that Fuhrman went over the wall and for ten minutes before that, was parked in the intersection facing in a southward direction, right?

# 342 A:

Yes, sir.

# 343 Q:

And with the headlights on, right? You didn't, the vehicle had it's headlights on, right?

# 344 A:

I can't recall if it had the headlights on or not.

# 345 Q:

You don't remember?

# 346 A:

I don't remember.

# 347 Q:

Could have?

# 348 A:

I don't remember.

# 349 Q:

Now, Fuhrman goes over the wall, unlatches the gate. You all go behind. You go to the rear of the Rockingham residence. You knock on Kato's door, right?

# 350 A:

We went to the front of the residence, sir.

# 351 Q:

You went -- Okay. You couldn't gain entry then. You went around and do you recall that you knocked on Kato's door to try to arouse him?

# 352 A:

Yes.

# 353 Q:

You didn't know it was Kato in there. You knocked on the door. You had and idea that someone was in the door, correct? In the room, correct?

# 354 A:

After I saw an arm, I thought somebody was in there.

# 355 Q:

Okay. And he opened the door, and a question was put to him immediately, right?

# 356 A:

Yes.

# 357 Q:

The question basically was, where is Mr. Simpson, right?

# 358 A:

Where is Mr. Simpson or do you know where Mr. Simpson is.

# 359 Q:

And he responded immediately, didn't he? Did his plane crash or words to that effect?

# 360 A:

No.

# 361 Q:

Do you remember that?

# 362 A:

He never said that.

# 363 Q:

Never said that?

# 364 A:

Never said that.

# 365 Q:

So if he testifies to that, he's lying; is that right, sir?

# 366 A:

I never heard Mr. Kato Kaelin say, did his plane crash.

# 367 Q:

So if he comes into court and testifies to that, he's lying; is that right, sir?

# 368 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Argumentative.

# 369 THE COURT:

Sustained. You're asking him to draw a conclusion. That's not for him to draw.

# 370 MR. LEONARD:

If he comes in and testifies to that he's incorrect; isn't that right?

# 371 MR. MEDVENE:

Objection. Asks for conclusion.

# 372 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 373 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Were you right there within ear shot of Mr. Kaelin when he opened the door and responded to the initial question to him about where Mr. Simpson was?

# 374 A:

Yes.

# 375 Q:

Were you right there?

# 376 A:

Yes.

# 377 Q:

Now, Mr. -- Detective Fuhrman, he stayed behind with Mr. Kaelin and Detective Lange and Detective Vannatter walked down to Arnelle Simpson's room, right?

# 378 A:

Yes.

# 379 Q:

You got her up, right?

# 380 A:

Knocked on the door and she answered the door.

# 381 Q:

And she was asked some questions as well, correct?

# 382 A:

She was asked questions, if she knew where her father was, something to that effect?

# 383 Q:

What was her response.

# 384 A:

She responded by answering the question like, isn't he there or isn't he here?

# 385 Q:

You're sure about, right?

# 386 A:

Something along these lines, isn't he here or isn't he there. Something along that line. She answered it with a question.

# 387 Q:

And then you requested of her that she permit you to enter the residence?

# 388 A:

No. I didn't talk to her any more, Detective Vannatter did.

# 389 Q:

Someone in your presence did?

# 390 A:

I didn't listen to the conversation between her and Vannatter and Arnelle. I walked away.

# 391 Q:

But you all walked into the house together. There's no question in your mind.

# 392 A:

I did not hear the conversation between Vannatter and Arnelle after. I asked the first question and then she went back into her apartment and got a key, came back out and walked to the residence.

# 393 Q:

Okay. May I go over there? I have to get one of the exhibits.

# 394 THE COURT:

Go ahead.

# 395 MR. LEONARD:

Think I'm going to put it up here, if I can. It okay if I put it there?

# 396 THE COURT:

As long as it doesn't fall onto one of our jurors.

# 397 MR. LEONARD:

We wouldn't want that to happen.

# 398 THE COURT:

Can you?

# 399 THE BAILIFF:

Yeah.

# 400 MR. LEONARD:

I'm sorry, Your Honor that's the wrong Exhibit.

# 401 (Counsel displays large exhibit entitled "Glove found at 360 North Rockingham Avenue June 13, 1994.")

# 402 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Now with the pointer and still holding so there's no injury to the jury --

# 403 A:

I got it.

# 404 Q:

-- I want you to, first of all, identify Arnelle Simpson's room.

# 405 THE COURT:

You want to identify the Exhibit?

# 406 MR. LEONARD:

I'm sorry. 145.

# 407 THE COURT:

Okay.

# 408 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Would you identify on 145 where Arnelle Simpson's room is?

# 409 A:

It's right here, where it says Arnelle's room.

# 410 Q:

Okay. That makes it easy.

Now, when you entered, you said that Arnelle went back in and she got a key, right?

# 411 A:

Yes.

# 412 Q:

Okay. That was the key to enter the residence, correct?

Well, you --

# 413 A:

I would have to assume it was.

# 414 Q:

Okay. In fact, you ultimately saw her use the key to get into the residence, right?

# 415 A:

Well, I was behind. I don't know whether she used the key or not. She went up to that door and the door opened and she went inside and we followed her.

# 416 Q:

Okay. But there's no question in your mind that she -- that she had a key?

# 417 A:

I would assume she had used a key to get in.

# 418 Q:

Okay. Just point out the door that you went into.

# 419 A:

There's some French doors in the rear of the residence. I think they went up these stairs and went in one of these areas in here, which leads right into a -- it's not really a -- there's a pool table or a billiard table just off to the left. I think it's possibly a dining room or a den or something that we walked into.

# 420 Q:

Let the record reflect that Detective Phillips has indicated that he entered a door which is adjacent to a tree. It's right to the left of what's depicted as tree, right above the portion of the residence that's labeled office. Is that fair to say?

# 421 A:

Is this the tree you're talking about?

# 422 Q:

Yeah.

# 423 A:

We entered over here.

# 424 Q:

Right.

# 425 A:

Okay.

# 426 Q:

There's actually an opening there indicating a door?

# 427 A:

I would assume so.

# 428 Q:

About three inches to the left of the tree?

# 429 A:

Okay.

# 430 Q:

Right?

# 431 A:

Yes.

# 432 Q:

Okay. I want the record complete. Thank you.

And there's no question in your mind that that's how you gained entrance to the residence with Arnelle Simpson?

# 433 A:

That's how we went in the house.

# 434 Q:

There's no question in your mind that you did not walk all the way around and go in the front door, correct?

# 435 A:

Did not.

# 436 Q:

Okay. You were --

# 437 A:

Shall I put this down?

# 438 Q:

I'll relieve you of your duty there. I'll do that.

# 439 (Counsel takes Exhibit 145.)

# 440 Q:

Now, your intent on notifying Mr. Simpson, correct?

That was what you were about when you went over there?

That was your job over there, right?

# 441 A:

Yes.

# 442 Q:

And you wanted to make sure that Mr. Simpson learned of this tragic incident first hand from you, correct?

# 443 A:

Yes, I was ordered to do that.

# 444 Q:

All right. You wanted to make sure, for instance, that you did not tell Arnelle Simpson anything about it, right?

# 445 A:

We did not until we notified her father.

# 446 Q:

It was until after Mr. Simpson was notified that you -- that you told Arnelle Simpson anything about this, right?

# 447 A:

I did not notify Arnelle Simpson, Tom Lange did.

# 448 Q:

And it was after that you --

# 449 A:

While I was making the phone call to her father, Tom Lange started talking to her and she became very upset. So I assume that's at the time he advised her.

# 450 Q:

Okay. But prior to her picking up the phone to call Mr. Simpson, in Chicago, you did not tell Arnelle Simpson what had happened, right?

# 451 A:

No, I did not.

# 452 Q:

Nor did you hear any other officers, right?

# 453 A:

No, I did not.

# 454 Q:

Okay. And from the time that you left Arnelle's room, walked by the gate, Kato room, by the office, entered the residence, and walked into the area where you made the telephone call, you were with Arnelle Simpson, Detective Vannatter and Detective Lange, correct?

# 455 A:

That's correct.

# 456 Q:

And you -- and that's the situation -- that situation remained like that during the time you made the phone call, right?

In other words, Arnelle Simpson was right next to you?

# 457 A:

Yes.

# 458 Q:

You could hear her react to what you were telling Mr. Simpson?

# 459 A:

Well, she handed me the phone after -- when she called Cathy Randa. I'm sorry, she handed me the phone and I talked to Cathy. Then I phoned her father myself and she was standing behind me.

# 460 Q:

Did you just say that she handed you the phone when you spoke to Mr. Simpson?

# 461 A:

No. I misspoke. I said when she was talking to Cathy Randa, she handed me the phone. She was standing right next to me and then I hung up from that phone call and dialed 411 and got the phone number. And then I called Chicago and she was standing in the same vicinity, was talking to Lange.

# 462 Q:

Okay. But just so it's clear, you walked in the back entrance, right? You did not walk around to the front?

# 463 A:

Walked in the back.

# 464 Q:

And you never told Arnelle prior to making the call to Mr. Simpson that there had been a homicide and that Nicole Brown Simpson was involved?

# 465 MR. MEDVENE:

Asked and answered.

# 466 THE COURT:

About three times.

# 467 MR. LEONARD:

I'll withdraw. May I approach?

# 468 THE COURT:

I guess. Go ahead.

# 469 Q:

(BY MR. LEONARD) Just show you what's -- I'm sorry.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Ron Phillips

I never saw Mark Fuhrman touch the glove.

Core denial about glove manipulation — Phillips was present the entire time and claims no witnessed tampering.

Ron Phillips

No one ever mentioned to me that he was a suspect at that time. Certainly wasn't a suspect to me.

Establishes the official position that Simpson was not a suspect when detectives drove to Rockingham — central to the warrantless entry controversy.

Ron Phillips

I was on my cell phone, out in the middle of the street. They walked up to me and said, 'we're going to go over the wall. We're going to go onto the property.' And I said, 'okay.'

Phillips distances himself from the decision to go over the wall, attributing it solely to Vannatter and Lange.

Ron Phillips

He never said that.

Flat denial that Kato Kaelin said 'did his plane crash' — sets up a direct contradiction with Kaelin's expected testimony.

Evidence (6)

Defendant's Exhibit 145

Large diagram/photograph exhibit titled 'Glove found at 360 North Rockingham Avenue June 13, 1994' — a layout of the Rockingham property

Displayed; Phillips used pointer to identify Arnelle's room and the rear entry door

Defendant's Exhibit 1800

Statement of Officer Daniel Gonzalez from interview conducted by Phillips (undated)

Introduced for foundation; Phillips confirmed it was his report but could not recall the date

Defendant's Exhibit 2104

Statement of Officer Thompson taken by Phillips on April 7, 1995

Shown to Phillips to refresh recollection; Leonard attempted to use it to impeach Thompson but judge deferred to defense case-in-chief

Informal

Photograph of rear gate at Bundy showing blood evidence (reviewed by Phillips that morning in preparation)

Discussed; Phillips confirmed no photograph exists showing blood on the latch specifically

Informal

Blood on the Bronco (described as 'small amount above the door')

Referenced as the deciding factor for going over the Rockingham wall

Informal

Photograph taken by Fuhrman and a photographer at approximately 6:45 AM at 875 South Bundy (the glove photograph)

Discussed; Phillips says he saw Fuhrman walking toward the scene with a photographer but did not witness the photo being taken

Notable Exchanges (5)

Dan Leonard•Ron Phillips

Leonard presses Phillips on whether he saw Fuhrman touch or manipulate the glove with a pen; Phillips consistently and emphatically denies it, adding 'I understand what you're talking about. But I never saw him do that.'

strategic

Dan Leonard•Ron Phillips

Leonard asks whether Kato Kaelin said 'did his plane crash' when first asked about Simpson; Phillips flatly denies it ever happened. Leonard then asks whether Kaelin would be lying if he testified to it — judge sustains objection calling for a conclusion.

revealing

Dan Leonard•Ron Phillips•Hiroshi Fujisaki

Extended back-and-forth over 'door-knocking' — Leonard asks what it is, Phillips defines it literally, Leonard accuses him of being facetious, Phillips apologizes, judge cuts off the apologies and demands the next question.

awkward

Dan Leonard•Hiroshi Fujisaki

Leonard tries to get Thompson report's blood observations in through Phillips as a prior inconsistent statement; Fujisaki refuses to reopen plaintiff's examination and tells Leonard to present it during the defense case.

procedural

Dan Leonard•Ron Phillips

Leonard establishes that blood on the gate latch was never photographed and, by implication, never collected — Phillips admits he has never seen a photograph of it and doesn't know what was collected.

strategic

Light Moments (5)

Ron Phillips

Pitcher of water wouldn't pour at the start of testimony — witness apologizes, Leonard says 'no problem.'

Ron Phillips

When asked 'What is door-knocking?', Phillips answers completely literally: 'Going up to a door and knocking on it.' Leonard: 'You trying to be facetious?' Phillips: 'No, I'm not... I apologize if I've offended you. You asked me what door-knocking was.'

Hiroshi Fujisaki

After multiple apologies between Leonard and Phillips during the door-knocking confusion, Fujisaki deadpans: 'That's enough apologizing. Let's get another question.'

Hiroshi Fujisaki

When Leonard is about to prop a large exhibit near the jury box, Fujisaki quips: 'As long as it doesn't fall onto one of our jurors.'

Hiroshi Fujisaki

After Leonard asks to approach for the third time, Fujisaki responds: 'I guess. Go ahead.'

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ Mark Fuhrman

Circumstantial implication

Leonard establishes that the glove photograph was taken around 6:45 AM with no witnesses other than Fuhrman and a photographer, and that Phillips never actually saw the photo being taken — laying groundwork for glove planting theory without a witness to rebut it directly.

⚔ Kato Kaelin

Prior inconsistent statement (setup)

Leonard attempts to lock in Phillips' denial that Kaelin said 'did his plane crash,' setting up a direct contradiction with Kaelin's anticipated civil trial testimony. Phillips was within earshot and is unequivocal.

⚔ LAPD investigation generally

Evidence handling gaps

Leonard establishes that blood observed on the gate latch was never photographed and likely never collected, suggesting sloppy or selective evidence gathering at the Bundy crime scene.

⚔ Ron Phillips

Prior inconsistent statement / credibility on Simpson-as-suspect

Leonard presses Phillips on whether Simpson was ever considered a suspect, trying to undermine the stated 'notification' purpose for going to Rockingham. Phillips holds firm that Simpson was never discussed as a suspect.

Witness Demeanor

Calm and cooperative, repeatedly apologizing for misunderstandings

Corrects Leonard's imprecise questions rather than simply answering them ('I thought you meant did he leave that area')

Becomes briefly defensive when accused of being facetious about door-knocking, then immediately backs down

Acknowledges gaps in his knowledge and memory without apparent discomfort ('It was not my investigation')

Objections

16 objections (9 sustained, 4 overruled)

Proceeding 8069 • 469 utterances • Defense witness

Civil Trial

Department 103