Cross-examination of Robert Heidstra

📄 Cross-examination of Robert Heidstra — Friday, October 25, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\OCT\25\CROSS-EXAMINATION-OF-ROBERT-HE.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 3 of 57

◀ Recess Direct examination of Louis Karpf ▶

Witness: Robert Heidstra
Examiner: Daniel Petrocelli
Called by: Defense • Date: Friday, October 25, 1996 • Utterances: 155

Baker cross-examines Robert Heidstra, who heard Nicole's Akita barking and saw a white car turn south on Bundy around 10:45pm on June 12, 1994. Baker uses Heidstra's criminal trial testimony to pin down the timeline and then challenges the color description of the car, while also trying to establish the car could have come from anywhere — not necessarily from near Nicole's condo. Petrocelli's redirect establishes that police showed Heidstra a Blazer (not a Bronco) when identifying the vehicle type.

# 1 Q:

Morning, Mr. Heidstra.

# 2 A:

Good morning.

# 3 Q:

My name is Bob Baker; I represent Mr. O.J. Simpson. When you were put on in the criminal trial, you were put on by Johnnie Cochran?

# 4 A:

Yes.

# 5 Q:

Mr. Darden didn't put you on the stand?

# 6 MR. BREWER:

Objection. Relevance.

# 7 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 8 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) In terms of your movements the night of the 12th -- pardon me -- as I understand it, you went out -- came out of your house here on Dorothy?

# 9 A:

Right.

# 10 Q:

Walked east?

# 11 A:

Yes.

# 12 Q:

Walked north of Westgate?

# 13 A:

Westgate, yes.

# 14 Q:

Left on Gorham, and came down to the area on Bundy and you were on the inside, or east side of Bundy when you turned, correct?

# 15 A:

Yeah.

# 16 Q:

You hadn't crossed over to the west side of Bundy?

# 17 A:

No. No. No, I was on the east side.

# 18 Q:

You walked down to an area past the alley where Bundy makes that curve, correct?

# 19 A:

Yeah.

# 20 Q:

That's when you heard the Akita barking?

# 21 A:

Yeah, very loud.

# 22 Q:

Okay. And that's about 10:30, right?

# 23 A:

10:30, 10:35, about that time.

# 24 Q:

10:30, 10:35?

# 25 A:

Um-hum.

# 26 Q:

And then you don't see the dog out in the street, do you?

# 27 A:

No. It sounded very close, yeah, but I didn't see it, no.

# 28 Q:

And when you heard that dog, you thought maybe that dog could be of some threat to your dog, so you back -- actually backtrack, went back up, and then start coming down the alley, right?

# 29 A:

Right.

# 30 Q:

Okay. Now, when you got to the -- walked down the alleyway, you got parallel -- what you believe is parallel to 875 South Bundy --

# 31 A:

Yes.

# 32 Q:

-- in the alleyway, and there was another little dog there, and it started barking?

# 33 A:

Yes, started barking. Yes.

# 34 Q:

You couldn't see, obviously, through that house, that the little dog was out over to Nicole's?

# 35 A:

No. You can see only tile roofs.

# 36 Q:

You can stand here and look up and see the tile roofs?

# 37 A:

Yes.

# 38 Q:

And the Akita's still barking loudly?

# 39 A:

Oh, yeah, nonstop.

# 40 Q:

And the other dog is a smaller dog, and it's barking at you as well?

# 41 A:

Yeah.

# 42 Q:

And were your two dogs barking at all?

# 43 A:

No, I was very lucky. They didn't bark once.

# 44 Q:

Now, when you got to the place where you were parallel to Nicole's, that was at 10:40, right?

# 45 A:

No, no, no. It was before that.

# 46 Q:

Let me read what you said in the criminal trial, please, at 36504, lines 5 through 19. And I'll omit the objections. See if I can refresh your recollection a little bit, Mr. Heidstra. "Q.So now that we're clear, Mr. Heidstra, is there any doubt in your mind that you were in that alley, and was walking parallel to Bundy, on the night of June 12, 1994? "A.No doubt. I'd never forget that. "Q.Any doubt in your mind that when you stopped behind that house, it was approximately 10:40, any doubt? "A.No. No doubt about it." Now, does that refresh your recollection?

# 47 A:

I don't recall that at all, sir. Unfortunately, it's too late.

KEY QUOTE

# 48 Q:

Well, I take it a year or so ago, your memory may have been just a little clearer about the event after the passage of time.

# 49 A:

Repeat it again.

# 50 Q:

Be happy to. All I'm saying is that our memories are usually better closer to the event.

# 51 A:

Sure. Sure, I understand.

# 52 Q:

Okay. And then when you came -- you proceeded down the alley, south down the alley, turn left, and were under the *oak tree and looked back down to the west on Dorothy, that was about 10:45, wasn't it?

# 53 A:

Yeah, around 10:45. A little before that, I would say.

# 54 Q:

Let me read to you what you said in your trial testimony, just to see if I can refresh your recollection.

# 55 MR. PETROCELLI:

What page?

# 56 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Again at 36504. "Q.Is there any doubt in your mind that when you were on the street on Dorothy and you looked back, before you saw this car turning right to go south on Bundy, it was around 10:45 in the evening? "A.10 -- Around 10:45, yes. "Q.Any doubt in your mind about that? "A.Oh no. It must have been in that time exactly when I came to the alley." Okay?

# 57 A:

Exactly. Around that time. Around that time.

# 58 Q:

I understand, sir. So we're looking at an approximation, give or take a couple minutes, of you standing here (indicating to map), a little east of the alley?

# 59 A:

Right.

# 60 Q:

And are you on the north or south side of the street?

# 61 A:

North.

# 62 Q:

North. And you look back to see a vehicle turn right on -- on Bundy, and head south toward Wilshire Boulevard, correct?

# 63 A:

Right.

# 64 Q:

And you had just seen a couple cars go past, had you not?

# 65 A:

Yeah. Up and down Bundy, two cars.

# 66 Q:

Now, you were a car detailer at Salinger's, next door to Mr. Simpson's house, for some years, were you not?

# 67 A:

I am still, yes.

# 68 Q:

You are still. If you were going -- you obviously have some knowledge of how to get up to where Mr. Simpson lives, do you not?

# 69 A:

Yes.

# 70 Q:

Now, would you agree that if you were in a hurry and wanted to get to Mr. Simpson's house and come out of the alley behind -- between Gretna Green and Bundy, you would turn right, or essentially turn the car around, and head north?

# 71 A:

No. It could be south, too.

# 72 Q:

Well, the quickest way to get there isn't to come down the alley, go east on Dorothy, and then south on Bundy, is it?

# 73 MR. PETROCELLI:

Argumentative.

# 74 MR. KELLY:

Objection.

# 75 ROBERT HEIDSTRA:

No.

# 76 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 77 MR. PETROCELLI:

It's outside the scope, too.

# 78 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) Is the quickest way to get up to the Salinger's house -- strike it. Did you ever -- if you're leaving your house on Dorothy, did you ever go south on Bundy to get to the Salinger house, next door to O.J.?

# 79 A:

No, but it can be done. If you go south, you go to Mayfield, the next street, and go to Gretna Green. There's no traffic lights or nothing there.

# 80 Q:

I see.

# 81 A:

Because north, you get traffic lights all *over the place.

KEY QUOTE

# 82 Q:

Actually, you don't get any traffic lights if you head up Gretna Green and go straight to San Vicente, do you, sir?

# 83 A:

There's no traffic lights, no stop signs.

# 84 MR. BAKER:

Thanks. I don't have anything further.

# 85 THE COURT:

Anything else?

# 86 MR. PETROCELLI:

No, Your Honor.

# 87 THE COURT:

Thank you. You may step down.

# 88 MR. BAKER:

I'm sorry; I have one more area. I apologize. I have one more area. Sorry.

# 89 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) When you talked -- being a car detailer, you recognize cars pretty well, do you not?

# 90 A:

Yeah.

# 91 Q:

When you talked to the police, you indicated that the car you say was a Blazer, like a Chevy Blazer. In fact, you pointed to a Chevy Blazer, didn't you?

# 92 A:

Yeah. They interviewed me and they pointed to me what kind of -- size of car I saw. And there was a Blazer in my building. They said, was it that kind of size? Of course, I said yes.

# 93 Q:

You said it was shaped similarly to a Chevy Blazer parked in his carport?

# 94 A:

This size of the car.

# 95 Q:

Now, one other thing: You testified, did you not, that the color was light or white?

# 96 A:

No. It was definitely white, sir.

# 97 Q:

Let me just get your -- 36324.

# 98 MR. PETROCELLI:

One second, Mr. Baker. Okay.

# 99 MR. BAKER:

(Reading:) "Q.Did that car make a turn, or did it go up Dorothy, or what did it do? "A.It made a turn. "Q.Which direction did it go? "A.A right turn and went south. "Q.Are you sure that vehicle went south? "A.Sure, sure. "Q.Would that be towards Wilshire Boulevard? "A.Towards Wilshire Boulevard. "Q.What color was the color? "A.Very light color, white or light. "Q.White or light? "A.It was white or something." Does that refresh your recollection, sir?

# 100 A:

It was white, definitely white.

KEY QUOTE

# 101 Q:

So it wasn't white or light?

# 102 A:

No, it was white.

# 103 Q:

It wasn't white or light?

# 104 A:

It was white.

# 105 Q:

Thank you.

# 106 MR. BAKER:

Nothing further. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 107 Q:

When the police spoke to you, did they point to a car in the carport?

# 108 A:

Yes.

# 109 Q:

And what was that car?

# 110 A:

That was a Blazer car.

# 111 Q:

Was there a Bronco there?

# 112 A:

No.

# 113 Q:

When Mr. Baker was asking you about Gretna Green and Bundy, did you say that Gretna Green did not have lights as you go north?

# 114 A:

That they don't have, only stop signs.

# 115 Q:

And Bundy does have lights?

# 116 A:

Yes.

# 117 Q:

Okay. Thank you. RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAKER:

# 118 Q:

One more thing, Mr.Heidstra: When you come out of the alley between Bundy and Gretna Green, you can just turn right if you were in a hurry to go to Mr. Simpson's house, and turn right another hundred feet and go north on Gretna Green, and not hit any stoplights, wouldn't you?

# 119 A:

Repeat again --

# 120 Q:

I apologize.

# 121 A:

-- please.

# 122 Q:

It's an important question, and I'm sorry. All I'm saying is, if you're tying to head to Mr. Simpson's house -- let's just say the Salinger house next door -- and you come south, if a car -- vehicle was -- happened to be parked in a southerly direction, that alley back there is big enough you can make a U-turn and go north, could you not?

# 123 A:

Which alley you mean?

# 124 Q:

The alley between Bundy and Gretna Green. I'm sorry.

# 125 A:

Down between? You mean behind Nicole's --

# 126 Q:

Yeah.

# 127 A:

-- condo?

# 128 Q:

Sure. That's a big enough alley to simply make a U-turn if you want, isn't it?

# 129 A:

You can make a U-turn.

# 130 Q:

So you could head north on --

# 131 A:

To Gretna Green, you mean?

# 132 Q:

Well, you could go north to Montana if you wanted?

# 133 A:

Yeah.

# 134 Q:

And you could obviously take a right turn, take another right turn, and access and go north on Gretna Green?

# 135 A:

Yes.

# 136 Q:

Sure, thanks. Nothing further. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. PETROCELLI:

# 137 Q:

When you saw the car, the white car approach the intersection, you did not see it coming from the alleyway, did you?

# 138 A:

No.

# 139 Q:

And so you did not know where that car was parked?

# 140 A:

No. It's dark.

# 141 Q:

Okay. That car could have been parked on Dorothy?

# 142 A:

Sure. Yes. Yes.

# 143 Q:

Thank you.

# 144 MR. BAKER:

It's not that I need the last word.

# 145 (Laughter.)

# 146 Q:

(BY MR. BAKER) That car could have been coming straight down Dorothy. You don't know where it came from, do you?

# 147 A:

No. It came out of the dark, complete dark behind there.

KEY QUOTE

# 148 Q:

It could have come out of Gretna Green, Dorothy, anyplace?

# 149 A:

Yes.

# 150 MR. BAKER:

Thanks. Nothing further.

# 151 THE COURT:

Is that all?

# 152 MR. PETROCELLI:

Yes, sir.

# 153 THE COURT:

You may step down. Thank you.

# 154 ROBERT HEIDSTRA:

Thank you.

# 155 (Witness excused.)

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Heidstra

It was white, definitely white.

Heidstra upgrades his prior testimony ('white or light') to a definitive claim, which Baker immediately undermines by reading back the original statement.

Heidstra

It came out of the dark, complete dark behind there.

Heidstra concedes he could not see where the white car originated, undercutting any inference it came from the alley near Nicole's.

Heidstra

I don't recall that at all, sir. Unfortunately, it's too late.

Heidstra disavows his criminal trial testimony placing him parallel to Nicole's at 10:40, prompting Baker to note memories are clearer closer to the event.

Heidstra

Because north, you get traffic lights all over the place.

Heidstra volunteers a reason someone heading to Simpson's house might go south — potentially helpful to defense theory about a southbound car.

Evidence (4)

Informal

Heidstra's criminal trial testimony at page 36504, lines 5-19 — placing him parallel to Nicole's at approximately 10:40 and on Dorothy at approximately 10:45

Read into record to refresh recollection / impeach

Informal

Heidstra's criminal trial testimony at page 36324 — describing the car color as 'very light color, white or light'

Read into record to challenge current 'definitely white' claim

Informal

Chevy Blazer parked in Heidstra's building carport — used by police to establish vehicle size during interview

Discussed; redirect clarifies no Bronco was present

Informal

Map of the Dorothy/Bundy/Gretna Green area

Referenced during questioning about routes (Baker indicating on map)

Notable Exchanges (3)

Baker•Heidstra

Baker reads back Heidstra's criminal trial testimony saying 'white or light'; Heidstra insists three times 'It was white, definitely white' — Baker closes by simply repeating the prior quote back at him.

strategic

Baker•Heidstra

Baker walks Heidstra through multiple possible routes to Simpson's house, eventually getting him to concede that a U-turn in the alley behind Nicole's was possible and a southbound car could reach Rockingham via Gretna Green without any stoplights.

methodical

Petrocelli•Heidstra

On redirect, Petrocelli establishes that police showed Heidstra a Blazer — not a Bronco — when he identified the vehicle type, and that Heidstra never saw the white car come from the alley.

rehabilitative

Light Moments (1)

Baker

Baker says 'It's not that I need the last word' after Petrocelli's redirect, prompting laughter in the courtroom before Baker proceeds to take the last word anyway.

Credibility Attacks (2)

⚔ Heidstra

Prior inconsistent statement

Baker reads Heidstra's criminal trial testimony (pg. 36504) placing him at 10:40 in the alley; Heidstra says he doesn't recall it at all, allowing Baker to note memory fades over time.

⚔ Heidstra

Prior inconsistent statement

Baker reads Heidstra's criminal trial description of the car color as 'very light color, white or light' against his current insistence it was 'definitely white.'

Witness Demeanor

(Witness asks Baker to repeat questions multiple times, suggesting some difficulty following)

(Laughter in courtroom after Baker's 'last word' quip)

Objections

2 objections (2 sustained, 0 overruled)

Proceeding 8025 • 155 utterances • Defense witness

Civil Trial

Department 103