Redirect examination of Gregory Matheson (part 2)

📄 Redirect examination of Gregory Matheson (part 2) — Monday, November 4, 1996

Address:

C:\DEPT103\CIVIL\1996\NOV\4\REDIRECT-EXAMINATION-OF-GREGOR.DOC

TRIAL

▲ Day 8 of 57

Witness: Gregory Matheson
Examiner: Tom Lambert
Called by: Plaintiff • Date: Monday, November 4, 1996 • Utterances: 99

Defense attorney Robert Blasier cross-examines LAPD criminalist Gregory Matheson about Bronco console blood stains and evidence collection procedures. Key lines of attack include the late discovery of stain 305 (no prior photos), the lack of documentation for collection procedures, and a pointed exchange about initialed bindles — Matheson admits he would be 'concerned' if a bindle he dated and initialed later showed no markings.

# 1 Q:

Mr. Matheson, did you review records from the lab to determine how many other times between June 29 when you looked at the socks and August 4, when Mr. Yamauchi looked at the socks that they were looked at by other people?

# 2 A:

I made a quick check, yes.

# 3 Q:

And how many times were they looked at by other people?

# 4 A:

It's a quick check I said I did -- I performed. I didn't find that they had been taken out and looked at during that time at all.

# 5 Q:

Were you present when Drs. Boden and Lee examined the socks?

# 6 A:

No, I was not.

# 7 Q:

Now, on August 4, is it correct, then, that is the first time that Mr. Yamauchi looked at socks and determined there were blood stains visible to the naked eye?

# 8 A:

That was the first date that blood was located, yes. That's correct.

KEY QUOTE

# 9 Q:

Now, you indicated that there was a piece of carpeting that was cut out of the Bronco and was put in a box. Remember that?

# 10 A:

Yes, I believe it was item No. 33.

KEY QUOTE

# 11 Q:

And that was a piece of carpeting from the floor board area of the driver side, correct?

# 12 A:

That's correct.

# 13 Q:

What else was in that box?

# 14 A:

That particular box contained most, if not all of the freezer storage items or -- Yeah, freezer storage items that were collected initially in the first couple of days of the investigation that were booked by Mr. Fung.

# 15 Q:

And that would include the gloves, the knit cap, correct?

# 16 A:

That's correct.

# 17 Q:

Now, I want to ask you about the stains on the console that -- you indicated you swatched those stains on September 1, I believe, correct?

# 18 A:

Yes.

# 19 Q:

That's the stains represented on the lower right hand part of this picture, correct?

# 20 A:

That's correct. The numbers that are on there are the different stain locations.

# 21 Q:

And one of those stains is No. 305?

KEY QUOTE

# 22 A:

Yes.

# 23 Q:

Are you aware of any picture at all taken prior to the time this was taken in the lab that shows blood stain 305?

# 24 A:

No, I did not.

# 25 (Referring to large board entitled "Bronco Evidence.")

# 26 Q:

Is it accurate to say that the total amount of blood on this console is actually an extremely small amount of blood?

# 27 A:

I'm not sure what you mean by extremely small.

# 28 Q:

Less than a drop is enough to create smears that size, correct?

# 29 A:

I'm not so sure less than a drop would be enough to do that. I have not performed any test. That seems small for the amount of blood that was there.

# 30 Q:

Have you heard any other estimate that people have given for the amount of blood on that?

# 31 MR. LAMBERT:

Objection. Hearsay, irrelevant.

# 32 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 33 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) You say when you collected those stains, you swatched them with a swatch, correct?

# 34 A:

That's correct.

# 35 Q:

Is there a procedure that you have within S.I.D. for collecting blood swatches?

# 36 A:

There's an informal procedure, yes.

# 37 MR. BLASIER:

Could I have a new number, please?

# 38 THE CLERK:

2133.

# 39 (The instrument herein referred to as instructions included in blood sample kits was marked for identification as Defendants' Exhibit No. 2113.)

# 40 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Let me show you what's been marked as 2133 and could you tell me what that is?

# 41 A:

Actually these are a couple of different documents. One of them is a set of instructions that was prepared for detectives when they collect blood samples. We supply homicide detectives in particular with small blood collection or evidence collection kits so that if they're at a scene that doesn't require a criminalist, other than to pick up one or two items of blood, they can perform it themselves. The last of the three pages you gave me were the instructions that are included with that kit.

The other two I don't have any specific LAPD footer or notation on that. I believe they have been used during training sessions but I'm not totally sure.

# 42 Q:

The last page is instructions that are given to homicide detectives and all detectives carry or permitted to carry kits that allows them to make blood swatches at crime scenes, correct?

# 43 A:

Well, not all of them.

# 44 MR. LAMBERT:

Objection. Irrelevant, beyond the scope.

# 45 THE COURT:

Excuse me?

# 46 MR. LAMBERT:

Irrelevant and beyond the scope, Your Honor.

# 47 THE COURT:

I'll permit that question.

# 48 GREGORY MATHESON:

Not all the detectives have them or even would be provided with them. We do provide them to homicide detectives when they request it.

# 49 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) And homicide detectives are trained on how to collect swatches.

# 50 MR. LAMBERT:

Same objection.

# 51 THE COURT:

That is sustained.

# 52 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Mr. Matheson, does scientific investigation division at LAPD have a field procedures manual that tells people, criminalists how to collect their evidence?

# 53 MR. LAMBERT:

Objection. Beyond the scope, Your Honor.

# 54 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 55 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) When you tried to collect a sample such as on the console, the proper procedure is to collect as much as possible, correct?

# 56 A:

We want to collect as much of the blood as possible, that's correct.

# 57 Q:

That's because if you want to do particular kinds of tests such as RFLP tests, it takes a certain amount of blood?

# 58 A:

That's correct. It takes a certain amount.

# 59 Q:

You can't tell from looking at a smear as we see on the console, whether there's going to be enough there or not to do RFLP tests, correct?

# 60 A:

Just from looking at it, or you can have kind of a guess, no, there's no specific test or anything you can perform.

# 61 Q:

When your criminalists are there when they see a smear like that, they're going to be potential DNA tests, do they collect all of it?

# 62 A:

We ask them to collect as much as possible, up to a quarter size stain.

# 63 Q:

When you say a quarter size stain, what do you mean?

# 64 A:

Well, for -- With a stain that's about the size of a quarter either when it has been dropped on a sidewalk or on a surface, or you have about a quarter size stain worth of swatches, you can pretty much perform all the different types of serological test that's needed to be performed. We give that as a rule of thumb, if you can collect about a quarter size stain.

# 65 Q:

Does it say that anywhere in any document they provided to your criminalist?

# 66 A:

No.

# 67 Q:

Now the stains that you've indicated on the console were actually discovered on August 26, were they not?

# 68 A:

I believe two of the stains were previously collected by Mr. Fung. The one that's in the lower back, right corner of the console, I don't believe was noticed until that date.

# 69 Q:

While there were inspections of the Bronco, now, the August 26 date, that was an event, were you present when the Bronco was searched at this time?

# 70 A:

No, I was not.

# 71 Q:

You were aware of that search taking place, were you not?

# 72 A:

I was aware of it, yes.

# 73 Q:

That was a search that was done at the direction of Michele Kestler, the head of the lab, correct?

# 74 MR. LAMBERT:

Objection. Foundation.

# 75 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 76 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Prior to August 26 and after stains 31 and 30 were collected, are you aware of anyone who saw or reported any additional blood on the console?

# 77 A:

I don't believe they were -- we were involved in any sort of searching or searches or anything at that point. I don't recall anybody else specifically saying something.

# 78 Q:

Did Dennis Fung, at any time, tell you that he only collected part of the stains, number 30 and 31?

# 79 MR. LAMBERT:

Objection. Hearsay.

# 80 THE COURT:

Sustained.

# 81 Q:

(BY MR. BLASIER) Now, you indicated that the procedure you used, you put a swatch on the stain and then you take the swatch and put it through a process to allow it to dry, correct?

# 82 A:

Yes. It's a set on a bindle or on a small piece of plastic under the conditions that I collected these.

# 83 Q:

Okay. And, well, describe that procedure to me in a little bit more detail?

# 84 A:

The collection process like I did in the laboratory?

# 85 Q:

Yeah.

# 86 A:

It's simple. You have a stain on a surface we collect on small clean cotton swatches or prepared in our laboratory. You pick a swatch. Say you have a very small stain, you pick a swatch that's roughly the same size of your stain dampen it in water, shake off the excess water, apply the stain, rub it around.

The whole idea you're trying to take the blood or whatever it is off of the surface and take it into the swatch. If you have a larger stain, then you may use 3, 4, 5, 8, whatever it takes to collect a representative sample of that quarter or that quarter size sample that I'm talking about.

Once you feel you have as much as you want to on the swatches, you take an -- in this particular case, 'cause I was in a laboratory setting, place the swatches on top of a plastic -- little plastic bag that I had to allow them to dry; just air dry in the room. After they're dry, they're taken off of the plastic and put into the bindle like you've seen before.

# 87 Q:

And the bindle, all that is a little piece of paper. Like a piece of scratch paper folded into a square, correct?

# 88 A:

That's correct. Just a piece of white paper we have around the lab, three-folded in on itself to capture the evidence inside so it doesn't get lost.

# 89 Q:

The proper procedure calls for drying the swatch before it's put in a paper bindle, correct?

# 90 A:

It's supposed to be, yes.

# 91 Q:

And you said that you date and you initial the bindle, correct?

# 92 A:

Yes.

# 93 Q:

And the purpose for doing that is to be able to track, to make sure that the bindle that you initialed and dated, if it's looked at later on down the road, you can tell it's the same bindle that you prepared?

# 94 A:

That's correct.

# 95 Q:

If you date and initial a bindle and sometime later you pull what's supposed to be that same bindle and there are no initials or dates on it, you know then it's not the same bindle you initially put in there, correct?

# 96 A:

I'd be concerned if -- like in these cases, if I dated and initialed it when I made it and those were gone, yes. I would be concerned.

KEY QUOTE

# 97 Q:

Now, it's correct that all of the biological evidence, all of the blood stains and other pieces of evidence that might have blood on them were processed through LAPD prior to the time -- S.I.D. prior to the time they were ever sent to any outside laboratories, correct?

# 98 MR. LAMBERT:

Objection. Beyond the scope.

# 99 MR. BLASIER:

Your Honor, the chart has information about being sent to other labs on here.

Temperature

tense

Key Quotes (4)

Gregory Matheson

That was the first date that blood was located, yes. That's correct.

Confirms August 4 was the first time visible blood was noted on the socks — weeks after they were collected, supporting defense suggestion of planting.

Gregory Matheson

No, I did not.

Admits there is no photograph of stain 305 taken before it was examined in the lab — raising questions about when and how it appeared.

Gregory Matheson

I'd be concerned if -- like in these cases, if I dated and initialed it when I made it and those were gone, yes. I would be concerned.

Concession that missing initials/dates on a bindle would indicate it is not the same bindle — key setup for later evidence tampering argument.

Gregory Matheson

No.

Admits the 'quarter size stain' collection rule of thumb is not documented anywhere given to criminalists — undermining procedural rigor.

Evidence (5)

Item No. 33

Piece of carpeting cut from the driver-side floorboard of the Bronco

discussed; noted as stored in same box as gloves and knit cap

Defendants' Exhibit No. 2133

Instructions included in blood collection kits provided to homicide detectives

introduced and discussed

Informal

Large board titled 'Bronco Evidence' showing console stain locations including stain 305

referenced during questioning

Informal

Console blood stains 30, 31, and 305 — stains 30/31 collected by Fung, stain 305 not noticed until August 26

discussed; absence of prior photographs noted

Informal

The socks — blood first observed by Yamauchi on August 4

discussed; timeline of examination established

Notable Exchanges (3)

Robert Blasier•Gregory Matheson

Blasier establishes that if a dated/initialed bindle later lacks those markings, Matheson would be 'concerned' — a foundational setup for arguing evidence tampering with specific bindles.

strategic

Robert Blasier•Gregory Matheson

Blasier gets Matheson to confirm there is no photograph of stain 305 taken before lab examination, and that no one reported seeing it before August 26.

revealing

Robert Blasier•Gregory Matheson

Questioning about the 'quarter size stain' rule of thumb reveals it exists only as an informal, undocumented guideline — not in any written procedure given to criminalists.

strategic

Credibility Attacks (3)

⚔ LAPD SID evidence handling

procedure gaps

Blasier systematically exposes that key collection procedures (quarter-size rule, drying before bindle, field procedures manual) are either informal, undocumented, or inconsistently applied.

⚔ Gregory Matheson

admission against interest

Matheson concedes he would be 'concerned' if a bindle he initialed later showed no initials — an admission that sets up a tampered-evidence argument for specific exhibits.

⚔ LAPD SID

chain of custody gaps

Establishes that stain 305 on the console has no photographic documentation predating lab examination, and that no one reported it until August 26 — weeks after the Bronco was in LAPD custody.

Objections

7 objections (5 sustained, 1 overruled)

Proceeding 8131 • 99 utterances • Plaintiff witness

Civil Trial

Department 103