📄 Redirect examination of O.J. Simpson (part 1) — Monday, November 25, 1996
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▲ Day 22 of 57

Redirect examination of O.J. Simpson (part 1)

Witness: O.J. Simpson
Examiner: Robert Baker
Called by: Defense • Date: Monday, November 25, 1996 • Utterances: 847
Daniel Petrocelli cross-examines O.J. Simpson on his movements at Rockingham the night of June 12, 1994, pressing him on contradictions between his police statement, deposition testimony, and what he told defense expert Dr. Lenore Walker. The examination covers Simpson's claim he retrieved 'phone accessories' (not a phone) from the Bronco, whether he went to the Bentley or the benches when limo driver Allan Park first observed him, and culminates in Simpson admitting he has no explanation for how his blood, Nicole Brown Simpson's blood, and Ron Goldman's blood ended up in his Bronco.
1 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Before the break, Mr. Simpson, we had talked about your statement to the police, that the last thing you did before you left to go to the airport was to get your phone out of the Bronco.

Do you recall when I asked you questions about that?

2 A:

Yes.

3 Q:

You recall that you said that there was something on the tape that indicated that you didn't say that?

4 A:

Yes.

5 Q:

Well, we're now going to play the tape, okay, at this part of the statement to the police.

6 MR. PETROCELLI:

It is Exhibit, for the record --

7 MR. FOSTER:

782.

8 MR. PETROCELLI:

782.

9 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) This is the portion at page 15 we were talking about earlier and this is a tape recording of your interview with Detectives Tom Lange and Phil Vannatter on June 13, 1994.

10 A:

I want to make a correction.

I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I said it was more to it than that.

11 Q:

Excuse me. There's no question pending.

12 MR. BAKER:

Further, it is not --

13 MR. PETROCELLI:

Play the tape now.

14 MR. BAKER:

I object. This is not where he said there was more on the tape.

15 THE COURT:

Overruled.

16 MR. BAKER:

This is misleading.

17 MR. PETROCELLI:

Please play the tape now.

18 (Pause for tape to be played.)
19 (Tape played; not reported.)
20 MR. PETROCELLI:

If you can shut that off.

21 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Simpson, did you hear yourself say "the last thing I did before I left, I was rushing, was went and got my phone out of the Bronco"?

22 A:

Yes.

23 Q:

And did you hear the question about where is the phone now?

You said, "In my bag"?

24 A:

Yes.

25 Q:

"Oh, you have it --

"Right --

"You have it there, right --

"Yeah, in the black bag.

26 A:

Yes.

27 Q:

You heard all that?

28 A:

Yes.

29 Q:

You did tell the police on the tape that the last thing you did before you left was you went and got your phone out of the Bronco, you did tell that to the police, right?

30 A:

Yes.

31 Q:

Yes or no?

32 A:

Yes, and --

33 Q:

Thank you.

34 A:

-- as I told you before, you left out something again in the middle there.

35 Q:

Did you hear it on the tape, sir?

36 A:

Yes.

37 Q:

What did I leave out?

38 A:

Well, whatever that is, I was referring to my stuff that goes with my mobile phone there.

You left it out there, and you left it out in repeating it.

39 Q:

Let's hear it again, one more time.

40 A:

That's what I was referring to, the guts to my phone.

41 Q:

So you didn't mean phone?

42 (Pause for tape to be played.)
43 (Tape is played; not reported.)
44 MR. PETROCELLI:

Stop.

45 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) You said, well, whatever that is, that was in response to the detective going um-hum, correct?

46 A:

That was in response, in my mind, sitting there thinking whatever that is whatever it was that goes with my phone.

47 Q:

And when he asked you the next question:

"Where's the phone now?

"In my bag.

"Oh, you have it there, right --

"Yeah, in that black bag.

"You brought a bag with you?"

Et cetera et cetera, even though you were referring, in your mind, to cell phone accessories, you never once said, hey, wait a second, guys, it wasn't my phone, it was these accessories, you never once said that, right?

48 A:

I never once said that, no, but it was all together.

49 Q:

You used the word phone?

50 A:

Yes.

51 Q:

You used the word phone later on in the interview again, didn't you?

52 A:

That's right.

53 Q:

You didn't use the word accessories or anything else, did you?

54 A:

That's right.

55 Q:

Okay, let's move on.

Now, in your deposition in this case, you testified that after you went upstairs to your room, you went up, laid on your bed a while, saw the clock, 10:35, 10:40, running a little late, got in the shower.

Do you recall that?

56 A:

Yeah.

57 Q:

And then, when you're in the shower, you heard the phone ring, from your shower, right?

58 A:

At this point I thought I heard the phone ringing and --

59 Q:

Now, you have this system in your --

60 MR. BAKER:

Can he finish his answer.

61 Q:

Did you finish your answer?

62 A:

I thought I heard the phone ringing, cause you can't always hear it.

I looked out and saw the light on.

63 Q:

Thank you. I want to get to that.

You have this phone system where someone buzzes from the gate, it rings on your phone like a phone call, right?

64 A:

Yes.

65 Q:

And you can go over to the phone, you can press the gate button, and it opens the gates automatically for the person waiting there to come in, right?

66 A:

Sort of.

67 Q:

Now, you know your limousine driver always comes in through the Ashford gate, right?

68 A:

Yeah, my main guy would normally come through the Ashford gate.

69 Q:

Main guy being Dale St. John?

70 A:

Yes.

71 Q:

And when you were in that shower that night, and the phone is ringing, you looked out and you could see this phone right across from your shower on that wall had the light on, and you could tell it was the gate, right?

72 A:

Across the room, yes.

73 Q:

Yeah. And you thought it was your normal driver, Dale St. John, picking you up?

74 A:

I would have assumed it would be Dale.

75 Q:

You never heard of Allan Park, right?

76 A:

No.

77 Q:

And Dale had a limo company called Town & Country, right?

78 A:

I believe so.

79 Q:

Okay.

Now, when you were in the shower and you heard the phone, and you opened the door, and you saw that it was the driver, you did not get out and walk ten feet and press the button and let him in, true?

80 A:

Correct.

81 Q:

And in your deposition, you explained that the reason you didn't let him in was because you believed he knew how to get in on his own, without you, right?

82 A:

Well, the main reason I let him in --

83 Q:

Is that what you testified to, sir?

84 A:

I don't believe so. I believe -- I think I didn't open the gate 'cause I didn't want the dog to go out.

I don't recall him ever letting himself totally in on his own.

85 Q:

Let's look at 3677, 3679.

By the way, there was only one dog on your property that night, Chachi, right?

86 A:

Yes.

87 Q:

You believe that Dale St. John could get in by pushing the gate open, and knew how to do that without being buzzed in, true?

88 A:

I believe that if he was going to walk on the property, as many times as he has been at my house, he would have known to push on the gate. I don't believe he has ever let himself in with the car onto my property.

89 Q:

You didn't let him in that night because you figured that he could let himself in?

90 A:

I figured he would do what he always did, wait outside.

91 Q:

Now, you -- and your explanation is you thought that Chachi would run outside the gate and you didn't want to let the driver in from the bathroom cause when the gate opened your dog would go running outside, right?

92 A:

Yes, that's -- had been a problem. And I don't know if that was my entire thought process but historically I would not let him in. My housekeeper would go out and make sure the dog don't go out and would let him in. I don't recall ever letting him in from upstairs.

93 Q:

So you just didn't want to let that driver in because you're concerned about the dog, right?

94 A:

Yes, and normally, on many occasions --

95 Q:

You can --

96 A:

-- he can wait outside.

97 Q:

You can answer yes or no.

98 A:

Yes.

99 Q:

You didn't want to let the driver in while you were upstairs because you say that the dog would have gotten out, right?

100 A:

Well, I didn't want to get out of the shower, for one, and two, I wouldn't have let him in even if I was out of the shower.

101 Q:

When you did get out of the shower, you had to walk by your phone to get out of the bathroom into your bedroom. It's right there on the wall?

102 A:

That's correct.

103 Q:

You didn't let him in at that time either?

104 A:

I don't think I've ever let him in.

105 Q:

Who's -- sir, who's talking about ever? We're only talking about the night of June 12, 10:45, 10:50, whatever time it is.

You didn't let him in that night, did you?

106 A:

That's correct.

107 Q:

You let that guy wait out there, right?

108 A:

Like he always does.

109 Q:

Even though you thought it was your regular driver?

110 A:

Like he always does.

111 Q:

We're not talking about what he always does. We're only talking about what you did that night?

112 A:

I didn't let him in.

113 Q:

Thank you.

Okay.

You testified in your deposition, sir, that --

114 MR. BAKER:

Page and line.

115 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) 485 through 486, 487 through 488, that your first interaction with this limo driver is when you came downstairs half dressed, brought down a suit bag, looked in your golf cover bag for your black shoes, and it was at that point that you saw the -- actually saw the limousine waiting out there at the Ashford gate, right?

116 A:

That's correct.

117 Q:

And the pants you had on were those stone-washed light blue jeans that you wore to Chicago, right?

118 A:

Yes.

119 Q:

And you had on a pair of shoes, right?

120 A:

Yes.

121 Q:

And it's kind of late, and the limo driver's there, and you're rushing to get out of the house and get to the airport, right?

122 A:

Yes.

123 Q:

Okay. And nonetheless, you say you put on a -- a -- a robe, right?

124 A:

Whenever I get out of the shower I put on a robe.

125 Q:

We're not talking about whenever. Really just focus on this night, okay?

126 A:

Okay.

127 Q:

You put on a robe, right?

128 A:

Yes.

129 Q:

And you had pants on, shoes on, and instead of just putting on a shirt or coming down with no shirt on, you put on a robe, right?

130 A:

I put on a robe first, yes.

131 Q:

Okay.

And by the way, was it a dark robe?

132 A:

I believe it may have been a burgundy and blue striped robe.

133 Q:

But a dark one? Not a light-colored robe?

134 A:

I don't know if it would be considered dark or light. It wasn't real light, but --

135 Q:

You said dark in your deposition.

136 A:

It could be considered dark, yes.

137 Q:

Okay.

And then you claim you had this dark robe on and stone-washed jeans and shoes, and nothing on top, having just coming come out of the shower you say, you then walked downstairs?

138 A:

Um-hum.

139 Q:

Through the front entrance, looked in this golf bag which had been placed earlier in the evening between the benches there?

140 A:

On the bench.

141 Q:

Or on the bench?

142 A:

Yes.

143 Q:

Picked it up, looked for shoes in the golf bag, right?

144 A:

Yes.

145 Q:

You saw that they were there?

146 A:

Yes.

147 Q:

Closed up the bag?

148 A:

Yes.

149 Q:

And then you picked the bag up, and sort of motioned and signaled to the limousine driver, right, to let him know you were there?

150 A:

I picked it up, I kind of put it over the ground and threw it on the ground.

151 Q:

So you signaled to him?

152 A:

I don't know about signaled to him.

153 Q:

You raised up your golf clubs?

154 A:

I raised it up off the bench, kind of faced him, and threw it down on the ground.

155 Q:

Intending that he's seen you, to let him know that the luggage was there, right?

156 A:

I would have felt it would have been impossible for him not to see me.

157 Q:

So you were intending that he see you, right?

158 A:

Yes.

159 Q:

Okay.

And you then walked back in?

160 A:

Yes.

161 Q:

This was the first time you saw the limousine driver?

162 A:

I didn't see the limousine driver.

163 Q:

Car?

164 A:

Car, yes.

165 Q:

Car is parked here on Ashford?

166 A:

Yes.

167 Q:

And, sir, you say that when you did all this, you walked out as far as -- as the bench -- the end of the bench, right?

168 A:

Well, I picked it up off the bench and I threw it down near the end of the bench, so I'm assuming -- there's not a whole lot of room there -- that I would have been at the end of the bench.

169 Q:

So you didn't go beyond the end of the bench, right?

170 A:

I didn't go beyond. I didn't go to the driveway. To say I was at the end of the bench or not, I wasn't measuring. It's a small area.

171 Q:

You didn't go beyond the end of the bench, right?

172 A:

I don't know.

173 Q:

Well, were you out in the driveway?

174 A:

No.

175 Q:

Were you over here, where the W is, or the A is?

176 (Indicating to Exhibit 116.)
177 A:

No.

178 Q:

You were back in here?

179 A:

Yeah, somewhere in that area.

180 Q:

And that's when you believe the limousine driver saw you going in the house, right?

181 A:

Yes.

182 Q:

And you -- by the time you testified in this case in the deposition, you had heard Allan Park's testimony at the preliminary hearing, right?

183 A:

Yes.

184 Q:

You were familiar with his statement that he gave to your lawyer, Robert Shapiro, on June 14, right?

185 A:

Probably.

186 Q:

And you even heard him testify at trial, too?

187 A:

Yes.

188 Q:

So you were very familiar with what Allan Park said and in particular where Allan Park saw you and when he saw you?

189 A:

Yeah, what I assume was me, yeah.

190 Q:

And you're also familiar with the description that Allan Park gave, that he saw a figure your height, your weight, African-American person, in dark clothing, you were familiar with that, too, were you not?

191 A:

I was somewhat confused 'cause I -- somewhere I thought he said, someone with an overcoat on, at some point.

192 Q:

Despite the confusion, you were familiar with his story that he saw a person in dark clothing, right?

193 A:

That's correct.

194 Q:

It's for that reason that you are giving this testimony today that you had this robe on?

195 A:

That's incorrect.

196 Q:

So that you could put clothing on that would meet Park's description but not have you out in the driveway?

197 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative.

198 THE COURT:

Sustained.

199 Q:

When you were out here, by the way -- by the way, putting this golf bench (sic) down -- putting the golf clubs down in between the benches, you had a gate control box right here, right?

200 A:

Yes.

201 Q:

And that's what, about 15 feet, 20 feet?

202 (Indicating to 116)
203 A:

20 feet, 30 feet.

204 Q:

So there was nothing in the world preventing you, under your story, from walking the short distance, pressing that button, clutching your dog so that he or she did not run out, and letting that car in to permit the limousine driver to do his thing?

205 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative.

206 THE COURT:

Overruled.

207 A:

I didn't see my dog, so there was nothing to prevent me from going out, clutching my dog, and pushing that button or pushing any phone in the house to let him in.

208 Q:

So there was nothing preventing you from walking the short distance when you saw the driver to press the button and let him in, true?

209 A:

Absolutely nothing.

210 Q:

But you did not do so, did you?

211 A:

Never had. Didn't do so.

212 Q:

I didn't ask you about ever.

You didn't do so that night?

213 A:

No.

214 Q:

Thank you.

Now, are you, sir, sure, by the way, that when you came downstairs in this robe, that you did not walk over to the Bentley and look in the trunk for the shoes?

Are you absolutely sure?

215 A:

I'm -- at this point I know I didn't. I may have earlier, I don't know if I looked for shoes, but I doubt it.

216 Q:

I'm talking about when the limo driver first saw you?

217 A:

No, I didn't, not at all that time.

218 Q:

Your testimony today in court is that you only went outside, out to the benches, right?

219 A:

That's correct.

220 Q:

And not the Bentley?

221 A:

Not the Bentley.

222 Q:

Okay.

Well, isn't it true, sir, that before Allan Park testified at trial in March of 1995, you spoke to Lenore Walker in February, of 1995?

223 A:

Yes.

224 Q:

And isn't it true, sir, that you told Dr. Lenore Walker, your own hired expert, that you went into the Bentley for the black shoes, which Bentley was parked across the driveway, isn't that true?

225 A:

No, I think --

226 Q:

Yes or no?

227 A:

I heard many things. We were trying to figure out the evening when I spoke to her.

228 Q:

Figure out?

229 A:

No.

230 Q:

Why did you have to figure anything out?

231 A:

Trying to figure out what took place.

232 Q:

Trying to figure out what to say, is that what you said, figure out the evening?

233 A:

No, incorrect.

234 Q:

You just remember the evening, but you and Lenore Walker sat there trying to figure it out?

235 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative, asked and answered.

236 A:

I don't believe that was her purpose at all.

237 THE COURT:

Overruled.

238 Q:

What you just said --

239 A:

No.

240 Q:

-- you didn't just say that you tried to figure out the evening?

241 A:

I was trying to figure out what happened that evening and I had heard --

KEY QUOTE
242 Q:

There's exactly --

243 A:

I had heard Allan Park long before February.

244 Q:

Any question to you -- excuse me.

Is it your testimony under oath before this jury that you heard Allan Park testify long before February that he saw you only at this point and not across the driveway? Answer that question --

245 A:

No.

246 Q:

-- Mr. Simpson --

247 MR. BAKER:

Just a minute, Your Honor, this in your face. Maybe Mr. Petrocelli can go back and get at the -- get at the podium since he's not doing anything over there except pointing at my client.

248 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Simpson --

249 MR. BAKER:

Would you direct him to get back to the podium if he's not going to be up around and doing anything with that exhibit around the board.

250 THE COURT:

Overruled.

You've done the same thing with other witnesses, Mr. Baker.

251 MR. BAKER:

Not when I -- when I was using the monitor, Your Honor.

252 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, you just said under oath that Allan Park had already testified by February 1995, didn't you?

253 A:

Yes.

254 Q:

And what you meant to convey to the jury is that Allan Park had already given his testimony; that he came outside and picked you up at this spot, right? That's what you just meant to convey?

255 A:

No.

256 Q:

And --

257 A:

I didn't mean to convey I heard him testify before this day.

258 Q:

And, in fact, when Allan Park testified before your interview with Dr. Lenore Walker at the grand jury, his statement to -- statement to Shapiro, At the preliminary hearing, his testimony was that he saw the figure walk across the driveway, true or untrue?

259 A:

I don't believe so.

260 Q:

You were familiar with Allan Park's testimony and statement that he saw the figure walk across the driveway, true or untrue?

261 A:

Untrue. I always thought that was Marcia Clark who said that.

KEY QUOTE
262 Q:

But you're talking about before Allan Park ever took the stand in the criminal case --

263 A:

Whenever he said it, I don't ever recall --

264 Q:

-- in the trial?

265 A:

-- Allan Park ever saying someone walked across the driveway. I never recall him ever saying that.

266 Q:

That is why you told Dr. Lenore Walker that you went out from the shower, to the Bentley to get your shoes and that Park saw you walking across the driveway, true or untrue?

267 A:

Untrue. Incorrect.

268 Q:

You did tell Dr. Lenore Walker on February 25, 1995, that you walked -- you went into the Bentley not the benches, true or untrue?

269 A:

I believe I told her I was at the Bentley earlier.

270 Q:

You told Dr. Lenore Walker that you went to the Bentley, sir, to get your black shoes, the same black golf shoes that you were just describing that you went to the benches to get, true or untrue?

271 A:

I don't believe that's what I told Lenore Walker, no.

272 Q:

Did you not tell Lenore Walker the following: You went into the shower, you heard the phone ringing, you knew it must have been the limo driver, you got dressed, you went to put the golf outfit in, you needed the black socks and shoes, and you went to the Bentley for your black shoes?

273 A:

No, I don't recall saying that to Lenore Walker.

274 Q:

Would you agree with me, sir, that the description that I just read to you from Dr. Walker's notes is and represents the exact same point in time that we're now talking about, getting out of the shower and going downstairs?

275 A:

Correct.

276 Q:

Okay.

And you told Dr. Walker that, with respect to that precise period of time, that you went into the Bentley, correct?

277 A:

No, that's incorrect.

278 Q:

And you did so because you thought that's what Allan Park was going to say at the trial, correct?

279 A:

That's incorrect.

280 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative.

281 Q:

And, sir --

282 THE COURT:

Overruled.

283 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) And, sir, what is it -- which one is it, sir? Is it the Bentley, or the benches?

284 A:

I went to the Bentley earlier and I went to -- only as far as approximately the bench, when I came out and signaled for what I thought was Dale to come in and get my golf bag.

285 Q:

Well, perhaps you misunderstood my question.

I'm only referring to that moment in this story when you came down from the shower, donned with this robe, this dark robe with your jeans on and your shoes on, to check on golf shoes.

Are your with me?

286 A:

Yes.

287 MR. BAKER:

Object to that question on the ground that it's argumentative.

288 THE COURT:

Overruled.

289 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Is it the Bentley or the benches that you went to at this point in time?

290 A:

The benches.

291 Q:

Not the Bentley?

292 A:

Not the Bentley.

293 Q:

The benches?

294 A:

The benches.

295 Q:

Now, you testified in your deposition that after this episode that we've been describing, you went upstairs and to your bedroom to complete packing, right?

296 A:

Yes.

297 Q:

You were doing a lot of packing at the last minute here, aren't you?

298 A:

Always do.

299 Q:

And you told the police that at some point in time you were rushing and hurrying and packing, right?

300 A:

Yes.

301 Q:

Then you also told the police that you were leisurely packing, right?

302 A:

Yes.

303 Q:

So you told them both things, right?

304 A:

I was leisurely earlier and rushing at the end as I always do.

305 Q:

You're only going for one night, right?

306 A:

Yes.

307 Q:

Okay.

Now, when you went upstairs to complete the packing, the phone rang again, right?

308 A:

Yes.

309 Q:

And it was the gate, right?

310 A:

Yes.

311 Q:

Now, this is like what, the third time you're hearing the phone ring, and it's this buzzing limo driver trying to get to your property?

312 A:

I don't know. I believe it was the second time I heard the phone ring.

313 Q:

And this time you answered it, right?

314 A:

Yes.

315 Q:

And for the first time you discovered that it was not Dale St. John, your normal driver, but a new guy that you never met or spoke to before, right?

316 A:

Yes.

317 Q:

And then you -- he told you that he was ready to be let in, right?

318 A:

No.

319 Q:

You told him that you had overslept and just gotten out of the shower, right?

320 A:

Absolutely, not.

321 Q:

Deny that?

322 A:

Totally.

323 Q:

Okay.

And in any event, you hung up the phone, and you did not buzz that driver in then, right?

324 A:

Yes.

325 Q:

Correct?

326 A:

That's correct.

327 Q:

You let him wait out there?

328 A:

Like I always do.

329 Q:

Wasn't talking about always, sir, just this night?

330 A:

Yes. I let him wait out there.

331 Q:

You let Allan Park wait out there?

332 A:

Yes.

333 Q:

You did not buzz him in even though all you had to do was hang up the phone and press a button on your phone; isn't that right?

334 A:

That's correct.

335 Q:

And again, the reason is this concern about Chachi running out of the gate, right?

336 A:

Yes.

337 Q:

Okay.

So you completed dressing -- and by the way, you put on a white shirt, denim shirt to go with your stone-washed jeans, right?

338 A:

I believe so, yes.

339 Q:

And you came downstairs and you started getting your luggage together, right, getting it into the car and so forth?

340 A:

Not really, no.

341 Q:

Now, at some point, sir, there was a piece of luggage behind your Bentley, wasn't there?

342 A:

Two pieces, yes.

343 Q:

And Kato Kaelin, at one point, went to retrieve the item and you stopped him and said, no, no, I'll get it, true?

344 A:

That's incorrect.

345 Q:

So if both Kato Kaelin and Allan Park so testified, they are both lying?

346 A:

Well, about the "no, no I'll get it."

347 Q:

They are lying about that?

348 A:

I don't know if they're lying, but I believe that characterization, "no, no, I'll get it" -- I think I just said I'll get it.

349 Q:

I'll get it?

350 A:

Yes.

351 Q:

Not no, no?

352 A:

Not no, no.

353 Q:

Okay.

354 A:

Yes.

355 Q:

You sure about that now?

356 A:

Yes.

357 Q:

You're sure?

358 A:

Yes.

359 Q:

And you went and got that bag, right?

360 A:

Well, I went out to -- back to my Bronco, and I went by it and on the way back if I got it, yes.

361 Q:

We'll talk about going to the Bronco. I want to focus on the bag.

362 MR. PETROCELLI:

Is it inside, Steve?

I apologize. It was locked up. This is Exhibit 899.

363 (Counsel places Exhibit 899 on witness stand for witness to review.)
364 Q:

This is is a pretty new bag, Mr. Simpson, isn't it?

365 A:

Yes.

366 Q:

Even got like a tag on it still, doesn't it?

367 A:

Yes.

368 Q:

When it was purchased.

369 A:

I don't know if it was purchased.

370 Q:

Now, is that the bag that you went to get near the Bentley, sir?

371 A:

I believe so.

372 Q:

And if Allan Park and Kato Kaelin testified that they never saw that bag before, they would be mistaken, right?

373 A:

Well, I know Allan Park said he never saw the bag at all, so --

374 Q:

So he would be mistaken, right?

375 A:

He couldn't (sic) be mistaken that he never saw the bag.

376 Q:

How do you know what he testified?

377 A:

I was at the trial.

378 Q:

Were you here at this trial when he testified?

379 A:

No. I was at the criminal trial when he testified, yes.

380 Q:

Now, you're positive, sir, that these new -- this new bag is the one that was at the Bentley that you retrieved and brought inside the limo with you?

381 A:

I believe it is. I can't say a thousand percent I'm sure of it because I normally have a lot of different bags that I get from various tournaments and things.

382 Q:

You're sure this bag wasn't acquired after the fact?

383 A:

Well, I didn't acquire it after the fact. But I'm pretty sure it was a bag that was there that night.

384 Q:

You're sure that bag wasn't acquired by someone, after the fact, to substitute for another bag that has since never been seen?

385 MR. BAKER:

Your Honor, there's absolutely no basis for him to ask that question. I object to it and it's argumentative.

386 MR. PETROCELLI:

Try two witnesses who have already testified.

387 THE COURT:

Overruled.

388 A:

Well, I would think it would -- I would think not.

389 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Are you unsure of yourself?

390 A:

No. I would think not. I wouldn't know anybody that would do that.

391 Q:

Do what? Do a dishonest thing like replace one bag with another?

392 A:

Yes.

393 Q:

Even if they're on trial for their life?

394 MR. BAKER:

Your Honor, I object. This is great argument.

395 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Wouldn't do such a thing?

396 A:

I don't --

397 THE COURT:

Sustained. Jury is to disregard that last question and answer.

398 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Simpson, I notice a little hesitation in your voice.

Are you sure this is the bag?

399 A:

That looks like the bag that was there that night.

I -- as you -- when you look at my cars, you'll see many little bags that people give me during golf tournaments and stuff, so it could very well have been the bag. It looked like the bag that I pulled out of my car that night and put a few balls and a Windbreaker in.

400 Q:

Anyway, at the airport, sir, when you got there with regard to that bag, is it not true that while Allan Park went off to look for a Skycap, that you went to your trunk, the trunk of the limo, and you put that bag inside your larger golf bag?

401 A:

Yeah. I actually took the balls and stuff out of it and put it in my larger golf.

402 Q:

My question is did you put that bag inside the golf bag?

403 A:

Yes.

404 Q:

Okay. That's that big golf bag that went with you to Chicago, right?

405 A:

Yes.

406 Q:

Now, on the question of the luggage, just to get it out of the way here, you -- when you left for the airport you had basically five pieces of luggage, right?

You had your golf bag, right?

407 A:

Yes.

408 Q:

You had your Loius Vuitton bag, right?

409 A:

Yes.

410 Q:

You had this suit bag that has the initials O.J.S on it, right?

411 A:

Yes.

412 Q:

You had this black grip that you -- that's how you refer to it, like your shoulder bag, right?

413 A:

Yes.

414 Q:

And then the fifth bag you say was this blue bag, right?

415 A:

Yes.

416 Q:

And when you got to the airport, you did a little luggage consolidation and you put that blue bag in the golf bag, right?

417 A:

Yes.

418 Q:

So now basically there's four items of luggage, right, four?

419 A:

Yes.

420 Q:

Four pieces left?

421 A:

Yes.

422 Q:

And incidentally, that blue bag you took in the back of the limo with you, with your black grip --

423 A:

I think when we came out I threw them both in the back of the limo, yes.

424 Q:

Excuse me?

425 A:

I think I threw them both in the back of the limo when I came out to go to the airport.

426 Q:

When you went to the airport in the limousine you had that -- you say it was that bag and your black grip with you in the back seat of the limo, right?

427 A:

I believe so, yes.

428 Q:

And when you finished putting that in the golf bag, you did a little consolidation at the trunk there while Park was away, right?

429 A:

Yes, that -- putting all my golf stuff together, yes.

430 Q:

In fact, you're saying you even removed some things from the bag, didn't you?

431 A:

Yes.

432 Q:

Okay. And then two pieces were checked with the Skycap, the golf bag and the Loius Vuitton bag?

433 A:

That's right.

434 Q:

And then you went on the airplane with the grip and your suit bag carrying a suit for the evening dinner in Chicago, right?

435 A:

That's correct.

436 Q:

Okay, we'll get back to the golf bag a little later on.

Now, when you were downstairs getting ready to leave to go to the airport, there was some conversation with Mr. Kaelin about noises that he had heard?

437 A:

Yeah. At one point, I think when I was coming back from the -- at some point he was talking about noise.

438 Q:

Yeah. And he had said something about an earthquake?

439 A:

I believe so.

440 Q:

Now, you were home at the time these noises were supposedly heard, right?

441 A:

Yes.

442 Q:

You didn't feel an earthquake, did you?

443 A:

Certainly not.

444 Q:

Okay.

So Kaelin expressed to you concern that there might be somebody on the grounds like a prowler, right?

445 A:

Yeah. He said he heard something in the back of the house.

446 Q:

And he even asked for a flashlight at one point?

447 A:

I asked him, do you have a flashlight? And he said -- I think he had a pen light. And I asked him to ask the limo driver.

448 Q:

Now, at no time did you tell Kaelin, before you left for the airport, to take any special precautions with regard to your daughter, Arnelle, who lived on the property, true?

449 A:

True.

450 Q:

And at no time did you give Kato any instructions about what he should do with regard to the noises, such as calling Westec or calling the police department, true?

451 A:

I told him to look around.

452 Q:

But you didn't tell him to call anybody, like security, right?

453 A:

No.

454 Q:

And when you got in the car and you left, and you drove off in the limousine, there was a cell phone that that car had, right?

455 A:

Yes.

456 Q:

And, in fact, you also had your own phone with you by this time because you had taken it with you to take on your trip, right?

457 A:

That's correct.

458 Q:

And you didn't make any calls to Mr. Kaelin from the limousine in regard to the noises that he heard, right?

459 A:

I know I had a conversation with Allan Park about it. I can't recall if I attempted to call him and couldn't get through or -- I called once I got to the airport.

460 Q:

And --

461 A:

I'm not sure. I may have --

462 Q:

Excuse me. We're not talking about a conversation with Allan Park.

We're now talking about a conversation with Kato Kaelin who heard the noises.

463 A:

I don't know. I think I -- it seems to me that I attempted to and didn't get through, so when I got to the airport I called him.

464 Q:

So if the phone records would show that there were absolutely no calls made from that limousine ride, you wouldn't quarrel with that, would you?

465 A:

No. But I think I -- I seem to recall attempting to. But sometimes when you drive, you can't get through on the cell so ...

466 Q:

And by the way --

467 A:

Maybe it wasn't working. I'm not sure.

468 Q:

When that happens it shows up on the phone bill, when you don't get through, like we saw earlier?

469 A:

I don't know. Sometimes if it -- If you make a connection through, it will show up on the phone bill, and sometimes if you don't ever make a connection through, it doesn't show up on the phone bill.

470 Q:

And you didn't give Allan Park any instructions to go back and talk to Kaelin, right?

471 A:

No.

472 Q:

And when you got to the airport and you hustled upstairs to catch your plane, you were the last person to get on the plane, by the way, right?

473 A:

I believe so.

474 Q:

And you made a phone call from the pay Phone at the airport, right?

475 A:

Yes.

476 Q:

And you called Mr. Kaelin to tell him to set the alarm, right?

477 A:

Yeah. I called him and asked him, did you find anything. Then I said, well, maybe you can set the alarm.

478 Q:

I asked you if you called him to set the alarm.

Did you or didn't you?

479 A:

I -- eventually, that's what I told him to do.

480 Q:

At no time in that call, sir, did you mention a word about the noises that you -- that he had heard, true?

481 A:

No. I think the first --

482 Q:

True or untrue?

483 A:

That's untrue.

484 Q:

Okay.

485 A:

I didn't mention the noises. I asked him did he look around, and he said no.

486 Q:

Than you gave him no instructions in regard to Arnelle, did you?

487 A:

No.

488 Q:

Making sure she was safe and there wasn't some burglar or prowler on the ground?

489 A:

No.

490 Q:

Now, just a few moments ago, Mr. Simpson, you talked about before you left, you went down to the Bronco to -- to get something, right?

491 A:

Yes.

492 Q:

Now, we went through this.

On the police statement it says the last thing you did is to get your phone, right?

493 A:

Yes.

494 Q:

And your testimony now is that you went down and you're -- not to get the phone but to get phone accessories?

495 A:

Yes. I view it all as the same thing.

496 Q:

You view what as the same thing?

497 A:

This comes as a unit.

498 Q:

You mean the phone and the accessories because --

499 MR. BAKER:

Can you let him finish his answer, Mr. Petrocelli.

500 A:

I view -- it's a nice little purse package that the whole thing comes together in and I view that as my phone.

501 Q:

And by the way, in this accessory things you're talking about, what is that, a phone charger?

502 A:

It's a -- you have a portable phone charger, you have a wire that you can put into the light socket of any other car and use it as a battery. It has a -- it's a nice case. It has a -- something else. It has a -- oh, another battery, and it all fits in a little leather bag -- case.

503 Q:

Now, couple questions about that.

First of all, you weren't really interested in getting your cigarette lighter battery charger to go to Chicago on an airplane, right? You weren't renting a car there?

504 A:

I may have 'cause I may have stayed over.

505 Q:

But they pick you up in limos and Hertz takes cares of you?

506 A:

Yes.

507 Q:

They drive you all around, first class treatment?

508 A:

Yes.

509 Q:

Fly first class?

510 A:

Yes.

511 Q:

They pay for everything?

512 A:

Yes.

513 Q:

So you're nor going there and checking into the Hertz rent-a-car place and looking for a little, you know, car to rent, are you?

514 A:

If I stayed over I would have rented a Hertz car, yes.

515 Q:

So for that reason you were going to -- you really wanted to go get that little cigarette lighter charger; is that what you're saying?

516 A:

No. It all comes in a case, so it's together, what's in there. Often I never used the other battery, but it all comes together so whatever is in there is what I carry together. And I also --

517 Q:

And?

518 A:

Excuse me.

519 Q:

Sure.

520 A:

And I always carry it together.

521 Q:

Besides the cigarette charger, what other charger is in there?

522 A:

It's a little thing. It's really kind of unique. You flip it up and you stick it in your hotel -- in the hotel and put the battery on it so it recharges the battery so when you're out on the golf course the battery doesn't go dead if you're using it.

523 Q:

And you wanted to take that with you to put in your hotel room?

524 A:

I carry it all with me. It's how I carry the phone. That's how it all comes.

525 Q:

Now, when you got to the hotel room that morning, you didn't take that thing out and stick it in a wall to charge anything, did you?

526 A:

No, I didn't.

527 Q:

Okay.

And your testimony at your deposition was that these -- this case with everything in it that you're describing was found on the passenger side seat, right?

528 A:

Yeah, either on the seat or the floor. I'm not sure.

529 Q:

On the passenger side?

530 A:

Yes.

531 Q:

Now, when you went out to the Bronco, this is while Park is still parked there, right, in the limo?

532 A:

He's not in the car. The limo's in the driveway, he's standing somewhere in here, and I think Kato's over here.

533 Q:

Right before you're going -- ready to go to the airport?

534 A:

Yes.

535 Q:

And you say you then walked down -- all the way down the driveway, right?

536 A:

Yes.

537 Q:

And you pressed the gate control box?

538 A:

I may have. I may have -- Yeah, I'm sure I pressed it going out or -- no, I know what I did. I unhinged it.

539 Q:

And you opened, it right?

540 A:

Yeah.

541 Q:

Now, you just said you unhinged it?

542 A:

Yeah.

543 Q:

You sure you didn't hit that button?

544 A:

No, I'm pretty sure I unhinged it.

545 Q:

You sure the dog didn't run out?

546 A:

No, the dog didn't run out. I unhinged it so I wouldn't have to open the gate all the way.

547 Q:

If you had opened it by opening the gate control box, the possibility existed that the dog would get out?

548 A:

If I called him at that point, if I can see him when he leaves, I call him, I can stop him, yes.

549 Q:

You went out, you say you walked over to the driver side of the Bronco, right?

550 A:

Yes.

551 Q:

Now, even though these items were on the passenger side, you went over to the driver side, right?

552 A:

Yeah.

553 Q:

No explanation for that, right?

554 A:

I think it's just a natural habit that you go to the driver side of your car.

555 Q:

You opened up the car door, right?

556 A:

Yes.

557 Q:

And you reached with your right hand to get these items on the passenger seat, and you also testified you got a Windbreaker that was on the console, right?

558 A:

I think the Windbreaker was sort of over the back of the front seat also.

559 Q:

And by the way, was -- did the light go on the overhead light --

560 A:

I don't recall. It should have.

561 Q:

Now, you just reached in, got these items and closed the door and went back, right?

562 A:

That's correct.

563 Q:

Now, you did not get in the car and sit down, right?

564 A:

You know what, I don't know. We would have to get in the Bronco to see what it would take me to get, getting in the car to reach over there. I wasn't thinking about it, if I climbed in, grabbed it, or I stayed on the street and grabbed it. I really don't know.

565 Q:

Mr. Simpson, you didn't get into this vehicle, sit down, close the door, and then remove your items? That's not what you're saying?

566 A:

No. I'm just saying the Bronco's kind of a big car so you got to almost get in it to get anything.

567 Q:

You didn't start the car, right?

568 A:

Correct.

569 Q:

You didn't pull out the headlight button, right?

570 A:

Correct.

571 Q:

And you didn't close the door, right?

572 A:

That's correct.

573 Q:

So you didn't have to open the door 'cause it wasn't closed, it was open the whole time, right?

574 A:

I'm sorry?

575 Q:

You didn't have to -- You didn't have to?

576 A:

Say it again.

577 Q:

You didn't have to open the driver-side door by pulling the handle because it was already open, right?

578 A:

Yes.

579 Q:

So you just reached in, got your things, and closed the door, right?

580 A:

Reached in, climbed up -- reached in or climbed up and got the things.

581 Q:

That's -- climbed up; that's a new fact?

582 A:

I doubt if it's a new fact. I can't say whether reaching in to get something out of a car or a Bronco, if you climb up in it to grab it or if you reach over and grab it. I can't say specifically if I did either one.

583 Q:

You left that Bronco, you closed the door and locked it, right?

584 A:

That's correct.

585 Q:

You didn't bleed in that Bronco?

586 A:

If I did I would have no knowledge of it.

587 Q:

You didn't bleed?

588 A:

I would have absolutely no knowledge --

589 Q:

You didn't bleed on the thing that opens up the cigarette lighter because you didn't open up the -- excuse me.

You didn't bleed on the nob where you open the headlights or turn on the headlights, right?

590 A:

I would have no knowledge. I doubt very seriously --

591 Q:

You didn't touch it?

592 A:

-- if I did.

593 Q:

You didn't touch it?

594 A:

I didn't touch it.

595 Q:

Now, you testified on Friday that after you had come back from McDonald's at 9:35 in your Bentley you had not seen a single speck of blood on you or from your body that entire day and evening, right?

596 A:

That's correct.

597 Q:

So -- and when you went into the Bronco, you didn't see any blood anywhere, right?

598 A:

Anywhere.

599 Q:

You didn't --

600 A:

That's correct.

601 Q:

You didn't see blood on the light switch?

602 A:

That's correct.

603 Q:

You didn't see blood on the door handle that you open the door, right?

604 A:

That's correct.

605 Q:

You didn't even touch that door handle on the inside of the car, right?

606 A:

I wouldn't know that or not.

607 Q:

And you were right-handed?

608 A:

Yes.

609 Q:

So your reaching in with your right hand, right?

610 A:

I would assume so.

611 Q:

Not your left hand, right?

612 A:

I would assume that if I normally reach, it would be with my right hand.

613 Q:

There was nothing coming out of your right hand dripping with blood, right?

614 A:

Not that I saw.

615 Q:

And are you now saying you stepped in the Bronco, sir?

616 A:

I'm saying, as I told you before, I don't know if I -- how I got over it to get the thing. I just know that normally a Bronco is a big car, that you kind of get up to reach something. I don't recall if I stood on the street, leaned all the way in and reached over and got whatever I had to get, or if I got in it and reached over and got what I had to because I don't recall if it was -- if it was on the floor. There was just no way you can reach it from outside the car and reach across and get it off the floor.

617 Q:

So the record will reflect, when you just demonstrated reaching, both times you reached with your right hand?

618 A:

That's correct.

619 Q:

And then you're right-handed?

620 A:

That's correct.

621 Q:

Did you leave a bloody footprint there when you stepped in?

622 A:

I certainly didn't see it.

623 Q:

You think it's a possibility, sir?

624 A:

No.

625 Q:

You think it's a possibility that you dripped blood all over that Bronco when you reached in for a few seconds to grab these items? You think that's a possibility.

626 MR. BAKER:

Argumentative.

627 THE COURT:

Overruled.

628 A:

I didn't see any blood. Anything's a possibility, but I certainly did not see myself bleeding at this time.

KEY QUOTE
629 Q:

Well, you just said leaving a bloody shoe print wasn't possible?

630 A:

I don't -- anything's a possibility, but I don't -- I don't think I left any blood there. I don't think so.

631 Q:

You know blood was found the next morning in that car, right?

632 A:

Yes.

633 Q:

You have no explanation for that blood, do you, sir?

634 A:

That's correct.

635 Q:

And it's your blood, right?

636 A:

I don't know.

637 Q:

It matches your blood?

638 A:

I've been told that it does, yes.

639 Q:

You have no explanation for how blood matching your blood and DNA matching your DNA were found in that Bronco the next morning, true?

640 A:

I don't know if it was found the next morning, but --

641 Q:

What do you mean you don't know?

642 A:

I don't know when they took it out. I didn't think they did that the next morning. I'm sorry that I may be ignorant to that.

643 Q:

Well, Monday or Tuesday?

644 A:

Whenever.

645 Q:

And you have no explanation for how DNA matching your DNA was found in that Bronco, right?

646 A:

That's correct.

647 Q:

And you have no explanation for how your blood was found in that Bronco?

648 A:

That's correct.

649 Q:

And you have no explanation, sir, for how blood of Nicole's was found on the carpet of the driver side, do you?

650 A:

No.

651 Q:

And you have no explanation for how Ron Goldman's blood got in your car that night, do you?

KEY QUOTE
652 A:

Me personally, no.

653 Q:

Have no explanation for this jury, do you?

654 A:

No.

655 Q:

None?

656 A:

None.

657 Q:

I notice you turned to the jury.

You trying to emphasize that point?

658 MR. BAKER:

Your Honor, that's out of line.

659 THE COURT:

Sustained.

660 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Now, you did tell the police, however, sir, when you were interviewed the next morning, that you did cut your finger that night, right?

661 A:

Yes.

662 Q:

And you told the police that you cut your finger at a time that was between 10 and 11, right?

663 A:

Yes.

664 Q:

That's the time that Ron and Nicole were murdered, right?

665 A:

That's what I'm told, yes.

666 Q:

And you told the police that you may have reopened that cut in Chicago, right?

667 A:

Yes.

668 Q:

Now, the cut that you reopened in Chicago, sir, was on your middle finger, right?

669 A:

May have reopened, yes.

670 Q:

What do you mean may have?

You just -- you didn't tell the cops "may have," did you?

671 A:

I thought so. I thought that's what I said to them.

672 Q:

Now, the cut on your middle finger is one that still bears a scar, does it not?

673 (Witness reviews finger.)
674 A:

Yes.

675 Q:

Left hand middle finger, right?

676 A:

Yes.

677 (Witness displays finger to Mr. Petrocelli.)
678 Q:

Right over there, right across the knuckle?

679 A:

Yes.

680 Q:

How did that mark get on your finger between 10 and 11 on June 12 in Los Angeles?

681 A:

I didn't see that or any mark on my hand between 10 and 11 on June 12.

682 Q:

How is it, then, that you reopened that cut in Chicago the next morning?

683 A:

It was in -- an assumption on my part.

684 Q:

What do you mean by assumption? You assumed --

685 MR. BAKER:

Let him answer the question.

686 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) You assumed --

687 MR. BAKER:

He asked you what?

688 MR. PETROCELLI:

Would you answer the question.

689 MR. BAKER:

What do you mean by an assumption?

690 MR. PETROCELLI:

Withdraw the question.

691 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) You assumed you reopened the cut; is that what you're saying?

692 A:

Yes, because I did not see any cut, as I emphasized to the police on numerous occasions, the night before. And I guess I did the wrong thing by trying to assume, and I assumed that if I was cut the night before, maybe it was the same cut because there was no other cut on my hand.

693 Q:

Well, the cut that you were talking to the police about, was this one that still bears the scar?

694 A:

That's correct. rm54

695 Q:

You told the police, sir, that you reopened that --

696 A:

Yeah.

697 Q:

-- in Chicago, true or untrue?

Just answer the question.

698 A:

I can't answer the question cause I think I said may have.

699 Q:

You may have or did, right?

700 A:

May have.

701 Q:

Okay.

We'll find it.

And you also told the police that you were quite sure you cut your finger before you went to Chicago, true or untrue?

702 A:

Probably.

703 Q:

Probably?

704 A:

I don't recall saying it, but I do recall when they were asking me about the night before, on numerous occasions that day, I assumed that I cut my hand.

705 Q:

And they asked you if you may have -- if you had been bleeding at Nicole's or cut it at Nicole's in the past couple of weeks, and you said no, you're quite sure you cut it last night.

Do you remember that?

706 A:

I saw blood last night, yes.

707 Q:

Well, let me read on page 22, line 27. (Reading.)

"Q. Do you recall having that cut on your finger the last time you were at Nicole's house?

"A. Oh, a week ago?

"Q. Yeah.

"A. No.

"Q. 0h, so it's since then?

"A. Oh, I'm pretty sure, yeah. Yeah, just last night.

"Q. Okay. Somewhere last night you cut it?

"A. Yeah, yeah.

"Q. Somewhere after the recital?

"A. Somewhere when I was rushing to get out of my house.

"Q. Okay. After the recital?

"A. Yeah.

"Q. What do you think happened?

Do you have any idea?

"A. I have no idea, man."

There's no doubt that you told the police you cut your hand the night before when you were leaving for the airport, true?

708 A:

True.

709 Q:

And you told the police that you had no idea how you did it, right?

710 A:

That's correct.

711 Q:

And you told the police that you reopened that cut or may have reopened that cut in Chicago, right?

712 A:

Yes.

713 Q:

Tell the jury which cut did you reopen in Chicago, sir.

Point to it.

714 A:

The police --

715 Q:

Just point to the cut on your finger --

716 A:

Well, I don't know because --

717 Q:

-- that you reopened?

718 A:

You haven't talked about everything that's in there.

719 Q:

No, no, no, we'll do this one step at a time.

720 A:

I don't know, I never saw --

721 Q:

Excuse me, sir.

I just want you to point --

722 MR. BAKER:

Your Honor -

723 MR. PETROCELLI:

He's not answering my question.

724 MR. BAKER:

That's because you won't let him. You keep interrupting him. Let him answer the question.

725 THE COURT:

Overruled.

Ask your question.

726 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Mr. Simpson, point to the cut on your finger that you sustained in Los Angeles between 10 and 11 p.m. on June 12 and that you reopened in Chicago the next morning.

Just point to it.

727 A:

I can't, cause I never saw a cut that night.

728 Q:

Well, you know the finger that you cut in Chicago, right?

729 A:

Yes.

730 Q:

So point to that.

731 A:

The finger that I cut in Chicago is here.

732 MR. PETROCELLI:

Let the record reflect Mr. Simpson is pointing to the middle finger of his left hand, just above --

733 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) What do you call that, knuckle joint, I don't know. What is it?

734 A:

You're asking me?

735 Q:

Yeah.

736 A:

I would call it a knuckle.

737 Q:

Okay.

And there's a scar there, right?

738 A:

Yes.

739 Q:

Is that scar the cut that you incurred in Los Angeles between 10 and 11 p.m. that you recut in Chicago, yes or no?

740 A:

I would have to say no.

741 Q:

Is that the cut you reopened in Chicago, yes or no?

742 A:

I would say no.

743 Q:

What do you mean you would say? What happened? Can't you just answer the question?

744 MR. BAKER:

Well, that's argumentative, Your Honor.

745 THE COURT:

Overruled.

Answer it.

746 A:

You want me to explain?

747 Q:

I'm not asking you what you would say.

When you told the police that you cut your finger in Los Angeles, and that you cut it again in Chicago, I would like you to tell us what cut you were referring to?

748 A:

I think earlier I told you I assumed, because I saw blood the night before, that I had cut my finger. I made it clear to the police that I never saw a cut, on numerous occasions that day.

I made an assumption, which I realize I shouldn't have made, because I saw blood -- I saw blood on my finger. I assumed I had cut my hand. Since I didn't see a cut, and since there was no other cut on my hand when I returned from Chicago and I was with the police and I was with Nurse Paratis, there was no other cut on my hand, I assumed and -- I made an assumption and I was wrong making that assumption.

749 Q:

Were you wrong telling the police that you cut your finger before you left to go to Chicago?

750 A:

That's right. I saw a spot of blood --

751 Q:

One question at a time.

You were wrong when you told the police that you reopened that cut or that you cut it in Chicago, yes or no, you were wrong?

752 A:

I was wrong.

753 Q:

Wrong.

Wrong about crucial questions given to you hours after Nicole's murder, true?

754 MR. BAKER:

This is argument.

755 A:

At the time I didn't know what was crucial.

756 Q:

Let me ask you --

757 MR. BAKER:

Wait a minute. This is argumentative.

758 MR. PETROCELLI:

It's not argumentative.

759 MR. BAKER:

Again --

760 MR. PETROCELLI:

Not -- absolutely not argumentative.

761 THE COURT:

Overruled.

762 Q:

(BY MR. PETROCELLI) Let me back up here.

You testified on Friday this was the first time that you were substantively interviewed, sit-down interview, with the police detectives?

763 A:

That's right.

764 Q:

You've never ever been interviewed in connection with the murder?

765 A:

That's right.

766 Q:

You've never been interviewed in connection with the murder of your ex-wife?

767 A:

Correct.

768 Q:

You were there not to assume anything, you were there to tell the truth, right?

769 A:

Yes.

But I did assume some things.

770 Q:

And by the way, while you were assuming things, you said in the interview that you were the number one target, didn't you?

771 A:

Yes.

772 Q:

You didn't know what to say to the police about the cut on the finger, true, Mr. Simpson?

773 A:

I knew what to say about when I got it. I think I was emphatic to the police when I got it. I also was emphatic with them on numerous occasions, even before we did the official interview, that I had thought that I was bleeding the night before, but I never saw a cut.

774 Q:

I want to talk about what you said to the police in this interview. Not on numerous other occasions. Okay?

775 A:

Okay.

776 Q:

You had a real problem coming back from Chicago with a cut on your hand and being questioned about the murder of Nicole, didn't you?

777 A:

I wouldn't have viewed it as a problem, no.

778 Q:

And you had no real explanation for that cut, correct?

779 A:

Incorrect.

780 Q:

You had no explanation for why blood was found at your house, right?

781 A:

At my house?

782 Q:

Yes.

783 A:

I don't know.

784 Q:

Now, the police told you that they found blood at your house?

785 A:

Yes.

786 Q:

They said there's blood on the driveway, right?

787 A:

Possibly.

788 Q:

They said there's blood in the car, right?

789 A:

They may have.

790 Q:

They didn't tell you about any blood at Bundy, correct?

791 A:

I'm pretty sure -- I don't recall -- I remember --

792 Q:

Okay.

793 A:

-- a police officer saying to me while I was handcuffed about blood everywhere, and I don't recall if he specifically said where.

794 Q:

While you were talking about why all the police and media were at your house, right?

795 A:

No.

796 Q:

When you showed up there?

797 A:

No, we were talking about why I was handcuffed.

798 Q:

The police told you about blood they found at Rockingham, true?

799 A:

I don't recall. I remember him saying there was blood everywhere and he -- I saw police things --

800 Q:

Let me read it to you. Page 31. (Reading.).

"Well, there's blood at your house, in the driveway. And that -- foot step. We've got a search warrant and we're going to go and get the blood.

"A. Sure.

"Q. We found some in your house.

"A. Oh.

"Q. Is that your blood that's dripped there?

"A. If it's dripped it's what I dripped running around trying to leave."

801 A:

Yes?

802 Q:

Now, when the police told you they found blood at Rockingham, you told them if they found blood there, that's your blood, that you dripped it there, right, that's what --

803 A:

Yeah, I assumed that, yes.

804 Q:

Was that an assumption?

805 A:

Yes.

806 Q:

An important question like that and you just made an assumption?

807 A:

Well, I saw --

808 Q:

Is that what you're saying?

809 A:

I made it clear to them that I saw a spot of blood. I didn't tell them that I dripped blood in my Bronco or the driveway. If I had, I would have told them I didn't see any blood in any of those places. I saw one drop of blood and some blood on my pinky which I told them, and so I assumed --

810 Q:

You also told them, sir, if that -- if it's your blood dripped on the driveway --

811 A:

I don't know if I specifically --

812 Q:

-- and the Bronco, that it's what you must have dripped running around, true or untrue?

813 A:

I don't believe that's what was implied by that answer.

814 Q:

Well, when I said, sir, is that your blood that's dripped there, referring to the driveway and in your house, you said, if it's dripped, it's what I dripped running around trying to leave.

Now you were referring to, when you said that, to the driveway and your house, right?

815 A:

I assumed -- I knew I was bleeding. I told them that I saw a drop of blood and -- in only one place on my counter. If it was elsewhere and it was mine, maybe that's when it happened. I don't know because I don't -- only saw it in one place and I saw no cut and I saw no other blood.

816 Q:

Now, you told the police that you cut your finger -- excuse me -- that you saw blood on your finger in the kitchen, right?

817 A:

That's right.

818 Q:

You testified at your deposition that there was a little dab or speck of blood under the fingernail of your left finger, right?

819 A:

I don't believe I said that.

820 Q:

You don't believe you said that there was a little blood on your pinky of your left hand?

821 A:

I believe I said that.

822 Q:

Okay.

And you also said that a little droplet fell to the kitchen counter?

823 A:

No, I said I saw a drop on the kitchen counter.

824 Q:

How did it get there?

825 A:

I assumed -- since I saw some on my finger and saw a drop there, I assumed it came from me, but since I wasn't cut or bleeding anymore than that --

826 Q:

Okay.

827 A:

-- you know, I was trying to leave, I wasn't thinking about it.

828 Q:

So you saw blood on the counter, right?

829 A:

I saw what I thought was blood on my counter.

830 Q:

At the same time that you're seeing blood on your finger, right?

831 A:

Yes, on my pinky fingernail.

832 Q:

And you then, you said in your depo, took a towel and cleaned the blood off and threw it away?

833 A:

I took a piece of paper from a towel rack, my paper towel rack, yes.

834 Q:

And then threw it away?

835 A:

I assume so. I don't know, I was talking to Kato and I was walking out the front door then.

836 Q:

So you told the police that, no question about that in your mind, there's blood coming from you someplace on the evening of June 12, correct?

837 A:

Once again, that would have been an assumption because since I saw a drop of blood on my counter, and I saw a drop of blood on my pinky, I assumed it came from me. I saw no other blood coming from anywhere. I didn't see it bleed beyond that. But I did make an assumption.

838 Q:

Did you -- did you assume that it was your blood, sir?

839 A:

I assumed that, at the time, it was my blood, yes.

840 Q:

You have -- you don't have any reason to believe it's somebody else's blood?

841 A:

I assumed it was my blood.

842 Q:

You have no reason to believe that it's anybody else's blood?

843 A:

I assumed it was my blood.

844 Q:

Now, tell the jury how you cut yourself such to have blood that was on the counter and blood was on the finger?

845 A:

I don't know. As I said, I didn't feel the cut, I didn't see any other blood anywhere, and when I -- I was talking to Kato at the time, and I saw a drop of blood on my counter and I looked at my hand and saw a drop of blood on my pinky, and that's all I saw.

846 Q:

You have no idea how blood got on you that night; is that what you're saying?

847 A:

Yes.

Temperature

devastating

Key Quotes (4)

O.J. Simpson
You have no explanation for how Ron Goldman's blood got in your car that night, do you? / Me personally, no. / Have no explanation for this jury, do you? / No. / None? / None.
The most damaging sequence of the proceeding — Simpson serially admits having no explanation for three sets of blood evidence (his own, Nicole's, and Goldman's) found in the Bronco
O.J. Simpson
I was trying to figure out what happened that evening
Petrocelli immediately reframes this as 'trying to figure out what to say,' implying Simpson was fabricating his alibi story with Dr. Lenore Walker before Park testified
O.J. Simpson
I always thought that was Marcia Clark who said that.
Simpson's implausible claim that he confused Allan Park's testimony about a figure walking across the driveway with something Marcia Clark said — undercuts his credibility on a critical timeline point
O.J. Simpson
I didn't see any blood. Anything's a possibility, but I certainly did not see myself bleeding at this time.
Simpson hedges on whether he bled in the Bronco — the 'anything's a possibility' concession contrasts with his earlier categorical denials

Evidence (5)

Exhibit 782
Audio tape recording of O.J. Simpson's interview with Detectives Tom Lange and Phil Vannatter, June 13, 1994
Played in court to impeach Simpson's claim he did not say the last thing he did was get his phone from the Bronco
Exhibit 116
Diagram or map of the Rockingham property showing the driveway, benches, gate control box, and Ashford gate
Used during examination to pin down exactly where Simpson was when Park first observed him
Exhibit 899
Small blue bag, described as new with a tag still on it, allegedly retrieved from near the Bentley before Simpson left for the airport
Placed on witness stand for Simpson to identify; Petrocelli challenges whether this is the original bag or a substitute
Informal
Notes of Dr. Lenore Walker from February 25, 1995, recording Simpson's account of going to the Bentley to retrieve black shoes
Cited by Petrocelli to impeach Simpson's deposition testimony that he only went as far as the benches
Informal
Blood evidence in the Bronco: Simpson's blood, Nicole Brown Simpson's blood, and Ron Goldman's blood found on the carpet of the driver side
Discussed; Simpson concedes he has no explanation for any of it

Notable Exchanges (5)

Daniel PetrocelliO.J. Simpson
Petrocelli plays the police interview tape twice to prove Simpson said 'phone,' not 'accessories.' Simpson tries to claim there was more context on the tape, but Petrocelli forces him to admit he used the word 'phone' throughout and never once corrected the detectives.
strategic
Daniel PetrocelliO.J. Simpson
Petrocelli confronts Simpson with Dr. Lenore Walker's notes showing Simpson told her he went to the Bentley for black shoes — directly contradicting his trial and deposition testimony that he only went to the benches. Simpson denies it repeatedly but cannot account for the discrepancy.
revealing
Daniel PetrocelliO.J. Simpson
Sustained exchange on the blood in the Bronco — Simpson's own blood, Nicole's blood, and Ron Goldman's blood. Simpson admits 'None' as his explanation to the jury, and Petrocelli notes that Simpson turned to face the jury when he said it.
devastating
Robert BakerHiroshi Fujisaki
Baker objects that Petrocelli is standing too close to Simpson rather than at the podium. Fujisaki overrules and remarks: 'You've done the same thing with other witnesses, Mr. Baker.'
heated
Daniel PetrocelliO.J. Simpson
Petrocelli challenges Simpson's explanation for not letting limo driver Allan Park through the gate — the dog concern. Simpson ultimately concedes 'Absolutely nothing' was preventing him from walking a short distance and pressing the button, but he simply did not do it.
strategic

Light Moments (1)

Hiroshi Fujisaki
Fujisaki rebukes Baker's complaint about Petrocelli standing near the witness rather than at the podium: 'You've done the same thing with other witnesses, Mr. Baker.'

Credibility Attacks (4)

⚔ O.J. Simpson
prior inconsistent statement — police tape
Petrocelli plays the June 13 police interview tape (Ex. 782) to prove Simpson told detectives the last thing he did was get his 'phone' from the Bronco, contradicting his in-court claim that he said 'accessories' and that police mischaracterized his statement
⚔ O.J. Simpson
prior inconsistent statement — Lenore Walker notes
Petrocelli uses Dr. Lenore Walker's February 25, 1995 notes to show Simpson told her he went to the Bentley to get his black shoes — the exact same moment he now testifies he went only to the benches — suggesting he was tailoring his story to fit Allan Park's anticipated testimony before Park testified
⚔ O.J. Simpson
prior inconsistent statement — finger cut
Simpson told police he cut his finger between 10 and 11 p.m. (the time of the murders) and may have reopened the cut in Chicago, but now claims this was an 'assumption' and that he never saw any cut on his hand that night
⚔ O.J. Simpson
bias / consciousness of guilt
Petrocelli presses the inference that Simpson coordinated his story with defense expert Dr. Walker to match what he knew Allan Park would say at trial — Simpson's admission that he was 'trying to figure out the evening' with Walker provides the hook

Witness Demeanor

(Pause for tape to be played.)
(Tape played; not reported.)
(Tape is played; not reported.)
(Indicating to Exhibit 116.)
(Indicating to Exhibit 116.)
(Counsel places Exhibit 899 on witness stand for witness to review.)
(Witness reviews finger.)
(Witness displays finger to Mr. Petrocelli.)

Objections

10 objections (2 sustained, 8 overruled)
Proceeding 8395 • 847 utterances • Defense witness
Civil Trial
Department 103
⚖️ Start
📂 NOV 25, 1996 📄 Redirect examination of O.J. S
NOV 25, 1996 KRT DvH TD